While reading through the recent Mescalero expdetion results at the BFRO (here), I started wondering about what impact an apparently uneventfull expedition would have.

Some have posted an open skepticism of the BFRO's success on their past expeditions, a skepticism hightened in part by seemingly great results without actual evidence to support them. Now that the BFRO has had an expedition with little to report of in the way of encounters, does this then shoot said skepticism in the foot or actually increase it? After all, if the "heat were on" so to speak, anyone with prudence might see the wisdom in laying low for a while. Conversely, this lack of success might show that the BFRO is just as apt to having a non-eventfull outing as any of us.

Either way, I seriously doubt that the recent report will in any way put to rest the debate. As mentioned above, I'm sure there will be those that will see this as simply more BFRO trickery, while there will be others touting it as proof that the BFRO is on the up and up.

Hopefully, the sides will maintain a civility, but I fear that won't be the case.

If someone can figure out how to get the sasquatches to cooperate, then this would fix the problem.

Indeed, but they (the bf) seem pretty intent on not letting that be the case.

Sceptisism is not always a bad thing, it keeps a healthy debate going and keeps people sharp to thier cuases. However If another video came out tommorrow with a bigfoot standing next to a park ranger or even a body most would think thats the end of the mystery. Yet there will be the sceptics dutifully trying to come up with any explanation other than the facts in front of thier eyes. Its thier jobs its what they do. Personally I dont spend much time worrying about them, they dont need my help and there is plenty of other fascinating things to keep me occupied. If the sceptics had thier way this would all have ended 38 years ago.
Unfortunatly in this type of research there simply will not be a class A sighting at every expedition and yes possibly not even a class B. Does that mean the effort was unproductive? No. And anyone who has really been in the field doing this research for any amount of time knows that. If it was that easy then this would no longer be the mystery it still is. Unfortunatly that is not what those who never leave thier houses want to hear and the same often thinks getting a picture of bigfoot should be as easy as getting a picture of a bear.

This last Expedition into the Mescalero area was extrememly productive in many ways including learning some of the behavioral patterns of this population and history of the reports from this area. This Exp was the first real attempt by an organized research group into a previously unknown and neglected area with a rich history of encounters and sightings. As I've said before in a previous thread there is initially a lot of leg work and interviewing that goes into a proffessionally conducted expedition into a new area and it took a good amount of time in this one. We have used this information to pinpoint areas for future research so when we return we can hit the ground running. Each expedition helps to bring in new poeple with fresh ideas and techniques in gathering the evidence we need. This also is condusive in helping to solve this puzzle by connecting one piece at a time, bit by bit we learn a little more and a few more questions are answered. So how do you guage success? A picture tommorrow will not end this mystery, there is still the need to gather information. That is research.

Its human nature to want to knock the big guys down a notch, or entirely off the hill. There will always be people hard at work to discredit any of the organized groups like the BFRO. How many years were spent by some of the early BF pioneers squabbling between themselves and trying to destroy each other instead of moving in a forward positive direction? I look at the entire picture and what has been contributed to the cuase and I see much good and positive forward movement with the BFRO. So I will fall under that catagory of beleiving the BFRO is on the up and up. Let the critics and sceptics be themselves in the meantime there is still work to be done in gathering hard evidence and information. .

Well said, Denlevi!

As Denlevi said.

A dud? Uh, no. A very productive, enthusiastic, informative and encouraging start.
A dud? As compared to what?
It was cool. Very cool. Literally.

Very well put!

Me thinks perhaps I wasn't clear on my own opinion.

I'm not saying it was a dud at all. I never consider any of my trips that, because regardless of what happens, I always learn something, whether it be related to bf, local animals, people, or what have you.

What I was referring to was the amount of success to date regarding actual sightings/vocals and the debate that has caused amongst certain camps. Mind you I don't have a tent in either camp.

No BM, I get your point.
Depending on one's expectations, it could have been referred to as a dud.
I talked to someone who went who feels that way.
No sightings. No pictures. No recordings. That's true.
But surprisingly many cooperative eyewitness and earwitness accounts and on-site visits.
For me, what was most important was getting a peek on the 'inside' and meeting some others to continue to work with in the future. In that regard, the trip was a total success. And a pleasure. Several good friends has been the result for me.
Given all that Matt-bashing I have read here and elsewhere, I now have a more informed opinion, and a personal relationship on which to base my perspective.
Matt and the BFRO are doing it. Really trying. It's not about $ as so many seem to be so quick to disparage. Based on what I have experienced, in prior contacts and now, I have confidence in the group.
It has been interesting to see how much of this is a soap-opera of clashing egos.
I understand some of it. Some of it is bs. Personally and otherwise.
The most recently posted summaries have been surprisingly candid and open and contrary again to some of the criticisms I have so frequently read.
In minor, insignificant details, Matt has been quick and responsive in his desire to get it accurate. It says a lot to me.
I much prefer summer camping though...

Bitter Monk brought some good points to light, no expedition is a dud unless it is cancelled. There is always some new type of information the group walks away with no matter how insignificant it may seem to others, every little bit of info brings us closer to a new discovery. To date, I believe the BFRO has had the most success compared to prior organizations BUT I do want to understand why they do not post all of the expeditions (October). All I ask for is consistency, no matter how minute the results may be...

Bigfootin' has always been a crap-shoot.
Always will be.
No guarantees.
It's best to keep a positive attitude
& a bet on the table...
just in case.


BTW, Bitter Monk...
Aren't you affiliated with the "Kiamichi Giants" group ?

No love lost between them & the BFRO, after that Honobia, Oklahoma (Battle for the Planet of the Apes) incident.....

Yes I've known Mike and his family for some time now.

Bitter Monk,
I'm confused by your statements.
You criticise the BFRO and claim organizational neutrality, and yet you are an Administrator for the Kiamichi Giants Message Board, the arch-enemies of the BFRO......
Looks to me like you DO have a dog in this fight........

I will only say this in regards to BM...
While it is very difficult to remain neutral when friends are involved..I think he has done a decent job of doing just that.
Relatively recently, there was a bit of a "discussion" on the KG board..in which a handfull of people(myself included), questioned some stuff there, drawing the expected wrath of a certain group of members there....
BM went out of his way to make sure we had our say..indeed, to the point of risking his friendships there. He was not the only one, either.
While my take on the events at Hanobia may well be different than his..it has not changed the fact that he has indeed been as neutral as possible, when push came to shove.

Bitter,
You're way too modest...

You're an Admin. Moderator for Timberghost & his Kiamichi Giants message board !

Congratulations,
but doesn't that affiliation put you in an 'awkward' position when it comes to your objectivity towards the BFRO ?

edited for double post

Its nice to know that once again I can't discuss a topic worthy of interest to many without someone bringing up my affiliations as if they somehow prevent me from proffering questions or developing opinions independently.



For anyone that knows me my criticism has fallen upon many at different times. If I feel a person, place or thing is worthy of criticism I will level it upon them, but always with an even hand and always only to the level that I personaly believe is deserved.

That said this thread was never meant to be a criticisim in any way, and if it were even accidently, then its a criticism of both sides.



You're damn right I do. I've never been a member of any organization and have absolutely no intentions of doing so, now or in the future. I do just fine on my own. That said I'm happy to cooperate with numerous people who ARE members of various organizations.



I'm not an Admin, I'm just a mod, and as Nightwing said I've caught flack from both sides of the fence over the very fact that I refuse to take sides.



If it looks that way its because you don't know me and you obviously don't know what you're talking about when you refer to me. If there's anyone that's gotten kicked in the teeth more times from BOTH sides its me, and its for the very fact that I won't be dragged down by being so narrow minded as to think I have to pick a side in anything.



Perhaps, but only if I was close minded to the point of thinking I had to pick a side and blindly follow it against all others. And that sir, I am not.

So you are a Moderator for Kiamichi and not biased against the BFRO....
Uh huh........hmmmm....

Then why'd you start this topic, crowing about the BFRO's perceived "failure" ?

Judging from your past posts here, you seem to be toe-ing the party line for Timberghost & the Kiamichi Giants in your unfailing criticisms of the BFRO, which is fine, if that's what you want to do......, but at least be honest about it.
Don't piss on our legs & tell us it's raining. You've got a hard on for the BFRO and align yourself with their enemies....admit it !

double post

Give me a friggin' break.... I myself have very strong opinions about the majority of the posters on the Kiamichi boards (quite unpleasant ones, at that), but I'll be the first to jump in here and say that you're not gonna find a more even, fair-minded guy than Sam, so give it a rest.

I think Stacy's advice to give it a rest is a very good idea. If you don't like it, take it up via PM.

Stacy is right again ......

Sask I post on a number of boards (Hey I even help set up the Kiamichi Board)

What does that have to do with personal knowledge or opinion?

I don't bash any group....
If I feel the need to critisize
I'd rather Pop a few individuals then damn a whole group.

There are no fences, there are no sides.
We all are within the community.

A few years ago I had a group of about 70 members that all at once decided ( by a couple of those individuals) that if you were to post on a certain message board
they would "hang you out to dry" as a group and the group accepted it.
I thought it was crap and told them so. The group dissolved after that.

Message boards are not a group
nor an affiliation
(or I guess I'm screwed too because of the way I like to post and hassle Voldemort)

I believe Sam to be of good character,
I would back him if cornered,
as I would alot of other INDIVIDUALS here
and abroad in the Bigfoot Arena.
It ain't like political affiliations or we are all screwed.
Would you be pissed if someone said they hated Elvis?He was a fat Dud?
I don't think so. You'd move right on with what you were doing.



JMO

Robert

Man I feel sorry for you. I honestly and truely do.

Robert, Stacey, Jay, as always thanks.

Hey, Bitter Monk,
Didn't mean to hassle you about all this !
I just felt like the line in the sand has been very well defined between the Kiamichi Group & the BFRO & found your position with one as your possible reason for dogging the other....
Guess I was wrong....
I see where you're coming from now.
Keep up the good work, Sam !

Just remember grasshopper, there's only a line in the sand if you draw one yourself.

I'll vouch for that as a mod here, a BFRO member, and someone who's mixed it up with "sugar" in the past.

Sorry Sam, but even I've got to give credit where credit is due.

Bitter Monk
Ive only been in this forum for about 6 months now but in this relativly short time I've found you to be a fair and balanced individual and I never thought for one second you were bashing anyone including the BFRO. Hope my previous post did not come off that way, if they did I apologize. I was trying to answer your questions wich I also thought were good questions and appropriate.

Not at all. But thanks for the post.