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Dfoot
It was back in August of 2003 when Dr. Shelly Williams sent material to Omaha for genetics tests. What's the word? Anyone know?

Interesting rehash of info for BF research --

Unlike gorillas these 6 foot tall bipeds rush out of the brush in full on silent attack mode instead of the typical bluff charge. Dr. Williams said they only stopped their attack on her when they saw her face and became apparently puzzled by her looks.

Others say that these apes usually tend to throw rocks or look on at humans, then quietly walk away. They show no fear of humans, but the natives in the area are extremely frightened of them and call them "the lion killers."

Here's Dr. Williams with a cast and a still taken from the only video she has been able to obtain that shows a mother with a young one in a tree.

Unlike chimps they make their nests on the ground and are elusive and difficult to find. They are known mainly by tracks and the occasional glimpse in the wild. No capture or kills of one is on record.

All of these longer-legged chimps (or whatever they are) sounds a lot like someone else we know and if more is learned about the Congo lion killers that data might even help in tracking Sasquatch.

So any word on that DNA? The only recent info I have states that they appear to be some sort of sub-species related to chimps, but possibly very isolated and somewhat interbred within their sparse population.

Nice skull sample she has obtained on the left of one of these apes.

- Dfoot
damndirtyape
I think it will be years before a speciemen is brought to the disection table so right now it is most likely just behavorialists working on this. There we could be waiting for awhile. Be nice to have a great big spread in Nat Geo on it though.
Apeman
Go to Karl Ammann's website. (karlammann.com)

One has been shot, photographed, and then lost.

The preliminary DNA evidence all shows that they are regular eastern chimps.

There is no evidence of them being 6 feet tall, bipedal, chasing or killing lions, howling at the moon, or any of that other bizarre anecdotal reports. Most of this can be attributed to folklore, exaggeration, misinterpretation and lots of other cultural factors. Look at the early reports of virtually any animal before it was known and you will find the same stuff.

This summer's field study showed more evidence that they are just normal chimps, though Karl thinks some of the adult males might be slightly larger than other chimp populations.

Most people who know one of the important players here think that person is crazy. There is reason to believe that much was made about nothing because someone wanted to become famous. This is certainly an important and interesting re-discovery (i.e. a unique chimp population that has been known about for at least 70 years) but, by all appearances, it seems to be nothing more than that. And Karl Ammann deserves the credit for it, not Shelley Williams.

I believe it's Ok to post this? This is from Karl's site and is copywritten by him.
Dfoot
QUOTE(Apeman @ Dec 4 2004, 12:32 AM)
There is no evidence of them being 6 feet tall, bipedal, chasing or killing lions, howling at the moon, or any of that other bizarre anecdotal reports.  Most of this can be attributed to folklore, exaggeration, misinterpretation and lots of other cultural factors.  Look at the early reports of virtually any animal before it was known and you will find the same stuff.

This summer's field study showed more evidence that they are just normal chimps, though Karl thinks some of the adult males might be slightly larger than other chimp populations. 

Most people who know one of the important players here think that person is crazy.  There is reason to believe that much was made about nothing because someone wanted to become famous.  This is certainly an important and interesting re-discovery (i.e. a unique chimp population that has been known about for at least 70 years) but, by all appearances, it seems to be nothing more than that.  And Karl Ammann deserves the credit for it, not Shelley Williams.

Sounds like people are mixing up different species and confusing them. Something we've all seen happen before.

I was under the impression that those extra-large chimps that Karl was looking into were not the same thing as the ones that Dr. Shelly Williams had interviewed locals about.

The "six foot biped" story comes from the people who live there and claim to have seen one walking across the road that was taller than six feet. Since Shelly Williams is a primatologist and also happens to speak their language she related these stories.

I know that Karl Ammann is not a scientist himself but has spent a long time investigating great apes. So I'm interested in any light he might be able to shed on any of these apes.

I did hear that Dr. Williams visited Karl and was also looking into his findings, but I never thought it was ever implied that the "six foot biped" or the big chimps he captured on photograph and the natives killed were related in any way.

I have heard that these are three separate distinct groups that are being looked into by various people. What personal squabbles there might be among the humans out there in the Congo is beyond me though. I just want the info.

I'll take the information from anyone as long as they'll admit that Ray Wallace is the father of the Bigfoot legend. cool.gif

- Dfoot
magikern
Regarding the bipedal chimps. Didn“t Oliver the Chimp come from a remote area where there were sightings of more chimps that looked like him.
Apeman
I hate these long quoted posts, but since not everyone has access to the New Scientist...

QUOTE
New Scientist

October 9, 2004

SECTION: Features; Pg. 32

LENGTH: 2339 words

HEADLINE: The beast with no name;
In the depths of the Congo lives an elusive ape unlike any other. What is this mysterious creature, asks Emma Young

BYLINE: Emma Young; Emma Young is a journalist based in Sydney

BODY:
IT WAS late morning on a damp, sweltering day in the middle of the rainy season when Shelly Williams found what she was looking for. She had been trekking for 5 hours through dense forest in the remote far north of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), on the hunt for a beast that locals call the lion-killer. Now, here she was, face to face with several of them.

"We were following their trail, and we were very close. We could hear them in the trees, about 20 feet away. My tracker made a sound of an injured duiker -- and four suddenly came rushing through the brush towards me," Williams recalls. "If this had been a bluff charge, they would have been screaming to intimidate us. These guys were quiet. And they were huge. They were coming in for the kill. I was directly in front of them, and as soon as they saw my face, they stopped and disappeared. You couldn't even hear them leave. I tried to find their trail, but couldn't. And when I turned around, the trackers were hiding behind the tree."

That day in June 2003, Williams, an independent primatologist affiliated to the Jane Goodall Institute in Maryland, became the first scientist to see one of these "lion-killers" in the flesh. But exactly what she saw is a matter of intense, even acrimonious debate. Williams, who remains the only scientist ever to have seen the animal, believes it might just be a new species of great ape. If it is, this would be the most astounding zoological find for decades. Other researchers don't agree, arguing that even though there clearly is a mysterious ape in the Congo basin, it is probably a chimpanzee with some unusual physical characteristics and behaviours. Either way, the scientific discovery of these large apes, reportedly up to 2 metres tall and perhaps half as heavy again as the largest chimps on record, reveals just how much we still have to learn about our closest living relatives.

The origins of this particular mystery stretch back more than a century to a time when European hunters published pictures of dead gorillas from the forests around the towns of Bondo and Bili. In 1898, a Belgian army officer returned from the region with three skulls. They looked like they belonged to gorillas -- and in recent years have been identified as such -- but were deemed sufficiently unusual by taxonomists at the time to be classified as a separate subspecies. Then nothing, until 1996 when Karl Ammann, a Kenyan-based Swiss photographer and champion of the African bushmeat crisis, heard about the "lost gorillas" and decided to journey to DRC in search of them.

Today, the region lies around 500 kilometres from the outer documented boundaries of both the western and eastern species of gorilla. But to Ammann's excitement, locals told him stories about large, ferocious apes with a reputation for killing lions. He also came across a skull with the prominent sagittal crest -- a bony ridge running its length -- typical of a male gorilla. But he was baffled by the hunters' descriptions of the apes' behaviour towards humans. "Gorilla males will always charge when they encounter a hunter and if you were charged by a gorilla, you would never forget it, but there were no stories like that," Ammann says. Instead, the tales were of giant apes coming face to face with hunters and silently slipping away. The sort of thing a chimpanzee would do.

Determined to uncover the truth, Ammann gathered what information he could about the animals and recruited scientists to visit the region. In 2001, an international team of primatologists including George Schaller of the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York and Richard Wrangham of Harvard University braved the civil war to fly deep behind rebel lines, in search of gorillas. They didn't find them. What they did find, however, was even more puzzling -- large, well-worn ground nests. Chimps usually bed down in trees, while gorillas tend to nest on the ground. But they hate water and build a new nest each night, and these nests were often located on swampy ground and were obviously being reused night after night. What's more, an examination of faeces from the nests indicated an animal with a diet rich in fruit, typical of chimps.

Caught on camera

The following year, Williams visited Bili at Ammann's invitation. She stayed for six weeks at his camp, Camp Louis, and managed to capture the mystery apes on video with the help of local people. Her tape, along with images taken by Ammann, shows large, black-faced apes. The head is gorilla-like. "They have a very flat face, a wide muzzle and their brow ridge runs straight across and overhangs," says Williams. Other features, especially the body, are much more reminiscent of chimps, but with some peculiarities. "They seem to turn grey very early in life, but instead of developing a grey back like a gorilla, they turn grey all over," she says.

Last year, Williams returned for a two-month stint. She was joined, for one week, by Colin Groves of the Australian National University in Canberra, one of the world's leading chimp morphologists. Groves examined all the Bili ape skulls he could get his hands on and concluded that they were chimps, albeit peculiar ones. Normally chimp skulls are 190 to 210 millimetres long. Four or five skulls from Bili measured more than 220 millimetres, way off the end of the normal range, he says. Then there is the skull Ammann found. "There's no doubt from the measurements that this is the skull of a chimp, though the crest is strange," says Groves.

Casts of footprints also point to an unusual animal. The largest, which Williams believes are from the giant apes, are between 28 and 34 centimetres long -- longer than the largest common chimp and gorilla footprints, which notch up 26 and 29 centimetres respectively, she says. Groves also sent a copy of a photograph of a large dead ape from Bondo with its poacher to Taronga Zoo in Sydney, Australia. Six chimpanzee keepers each estimated the animal's weight at between 85 and 102 kilograms. The acknowledged record for a chimp is 70 kilograms.

Working with local trackers, Williams has surveyed about 400 square kilometres of forest and patchy savannah around Bili and gathered all the information she can on about 50 ground nests and 12 tree nests found close by. Her studies have convinced her that the heavier males make the ground nests while females, juveniles and infants prefer the trees. "There might be two or three ground nests in the swampy water or a stream, and then if you look up, you'll always see two or three other nests above," she says. This, together with other observations and reports from locals, leads her to believe that these apes live in very small groups. By contrast, the local subspecies of chimp, Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii, which is common in the forests, travels in large troops of between 30 and 45 individuals.

Williams is now writing up her research for submission to the International Journal of Primatology. There is no doubt that these are unusual apes, she says. But the big question is -- what exactly are they? It is here that her speculation has brought her into conflict with other primatologists. She suggests three controversial possibilities: they might be a new species of great ape, they might be a gorilla-chimp hybrid, or they might be a new sub-species of common chimpanzee.

The notion of a new species is not quite so outlandish as it first appears, given the ongoing wrangling over great ape classification. The bonobo, Pan paniscus, was only recognised as a separate species in 1929, and heated debate continues about whether the orang-utans of Borneo and Sumatra are one species or two. Three subspecies of common chimpanzee are universally recognised: Pan troglodytes verus in west Africa, P. t. troglodytes in the centre, and P. t. schweinfurthii in the east, including northern and eastern DRC. But extensive new chimp genetic data, collected and analysed by Katherine Gonder of the University of Maryland, College Park, and colleagues, bolsters a long-standing but previously dismissed argument for a fourth subspecies, P. t. vellerosus -- a classification that is now accepted by the World Conservation Union and other groups. Groves, meanwhile, is arguing for a fifth subspecies in some parts of DRC, as well as Uganda and Tanzania, based on an as yet unpublished analysis of chimp skulls.

Even so, Williams's suggestion that the Bili apes might be an entirely new species puts her on lonely ground. Certainly, the DNA evidence so far seems to contradict this possibility. Between 1999 and 2001, Pascal Gagneux from the Center for Reproduction of Endangered Species at San Diego Zoo made the first analysis of the apes' mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in hairs taken from large ground nests around Bili. His studies indicated that the animals are "schweinfurthii-like" and genetically indistinguishable from other chimps living in the region. A team at Omaha Zoo in Nebraska, led by Ed Louis, later did mtDNA analysis on faecal samples and reached the same conclusion. "We are almost certainly not talking even about a new sub-species," Gagneux says. Most other researchers agree with him. But Williams argues that mtDNA can never give the full picture because it only tells you what is inherited through the maternal line.

Then there is the little matter of the ape's size. Even Gagneux readily acknowledges that the mtDNA results fail to explain how they came to be so very large. He suggests a local variation in the Y chromosome may be responsible. Groves thinks perhaps genes on non-sex chromosomes may be responding to testosterone or some other growth promoter. However, both Ammann and Williams believe they have photographs of unusually large females. If so, Gagneux's theory won't wash and Groves's looks shaky. The cause could still be simple genetic drift, says Gonder. If a founder population of chimpanzees was isolated in a forest fragment and just by chance there were a few big chimps in the area, the genes of those big chimps could have become fixed in the population, she says.

An alternative possibility is that the Bili apes are in fact hybrids of gorillas and chimps. "Gorilla-like characteristics occasionally do seem to turn up in chimp populations," admits Groves, "and I don't know the significance of that." In theory, the two species might be able to mate successfully and produce fertile offspring, although no one has ever seen this. The 2001 Bili expedition did not find any sign of gorillas, but Williams argues that at some point in the past they almost certainly did live around Bili and Bondo. If the Congo river was low at that time, gorillas and chimps could have intermingled -- not only geographically but genetically, she says. As the forest fragmented and the level of the Congo rose, an isolated pocket of animals with some mixed-species heredity could have been left behind.

Although the genetic studies by Gagneux and others do not support hybridisation, neither do they rule it out. If the apes are descendants of male gorillas and female chimps, there would be no sign of this in the maternally transmitted mitochondria. Even if males and females of both species interbred, evidence of this might not show up in the sections of mtDNA that have been analysed. Williams is not prepared to abandon the possibility of hybridisation, or indeed the idea that the giant apes may be a new species, without a full analysis of the animal's nuclear DNA. Such genetic material is difficult to extract from hair and faeces, which are the only available samples of the mystery apes at the moment. Nevertheless, Ammann hopes that a team at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands will soon attempt nuclear DNA analysis using faeces he has collected.

Even if the Bili giants do turn out to be chimps, is there still a case for giving them their own subspecies? After all, they do build ground nests and reuse them, a peculiar habit for chimps. They peel fruit with their hands, rather than their canines. And the tools they use for termite fishing are much longer and bigger than anywhere else. Williams feels these behavioural idiosyncrasies, together with their strange looks, argue for at least a new subspecies. However, even in this, she has few backers. "There are huge cultural differences among chimpanzees," stresses Andrew Whiten of the University of St Andrews, UK, whose own research has helped reveal that such differences can be greater than the genetic variations between groups of chimps. "I do not think that behaviour makes a good marker for sub-species in great apes as flexible as chimps," agrees Gagneux.

Whatever taxonomic category the apes are finally consigned to, there are at least plans for much more detailed observation of their behaviour. Since the five-year civil war came to an end in July 2003, it is safer for scientists to visit. Ammann hopes to have a PhD researcher at one of his camps near Bili for a year to study the apes. And Williams also wants to return to the region -- though it won't be to Bili. Ammann has taken exception to her speculations. While he too is convinced that more research is essential, like most academics he takes a cautious approach. "Whatever exists there, we have evidence for big chimps and that's where it stops," he says. Since Ammann effectively controls scientific access to Bili, through his close links with the local people, Williams is now seeking funds to set up a research camp in Bondo, which she hopes to do this year.

So far, Williams has seen a total of eight of the large apes. No one knows how many there might be, but Williams is afraid they could be poached out of existence before they can be properly studied. Fear for their future is one of the few things she and Ammann agree on. "This is a lawless area," he says. "The government has practically no control over hunting. If we found something interesting it would attract more investment. People would be more interested in conserving it."

LOAD-DATE: October 11, 2004
doglady
apeman--

thanks for posting that. i don't have time to track down all the written info out there on discoveries/investigations like what's going on in congo. i do manage to find out about this sttuff and end up with a garbled understanding of what has been written. that report is the most comprehensve report i've read on the discovery of that population of apes. does anyone know if there are actually known hybrid gorilla-chimps? if some one had asked me if it were even possible, i'd probably have said no because their cultures are so different. and shifting things just a little, are there any known chimp-human or gorilla-human or orang-human hybrids? (i don't know if that is even physically possible)

anyway, thanks again, apeman
Apeman
QUOTE(doglady @ Dec 17 2004, 06:52 AM)
apeman--

does anyone know if there are actually known hybrid gorilla-chimps?

and shifting things just a little, are there any known chimp-human or gorilla-human or orang-human hybrids? (i don't know if that is even physically possible)

anyway, thanks again, apeman

As I far as know (but I've never thoroughly investigated it) there are no known hybrids between any of the ape genuses (e.g. chimps and gorillas, orangs and gorillas, etc) or even between species (e.g. eastern and westen gorillas) but the chimpanzee picture is clouded because there isn't agreement about whether the 3 (or 4) different groups are species or subspecies- but I'm quite certain that there are hybrids between these groups (for example eastern chimpanzees- currently Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii- and central chimpanzees- P.t. troglodytes) usually from being mixed in sanctuaries/zoos and allowed to breed.

Of course the most likely hybrid, genetically, would be human and chimpanzee, and plenty of people speculate that it has been tried. Science fiction? Probably, but remember there have been crude human-pig and human-cow hybrids (at least to 32 cells in a petri dish). But if someone did try to make a 'humanzee', and it worked, we'd probably all know about it.

Natural hybrids are much less likely, which is why most primatologists doubted the possibility of these Bili chimps being hybrids from the beginning. Certainly plausible but not very likely. As you pointed out, these animals are way too different both behaviorally and anatomically...but you have to wonder what would happen if a single male chimp and female gorilla were stuck together on a desert island....or a remote, totally isolated forest in northern DR Congo.....

But I don't think that's the case.

AM
Apeman
Very sad news to report and this seemed like the best place.

QUOTE
Gun victim is ape expert
Police: Scientist shot accidentally

By DON PLUMMER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 11/09/05

The Smyrna woman shot Monday afternoon as she ran errands with her husband, the innocent victim of an unrelated drug shooting, is a world-renowned primatologist credited with possibly identifying a new species of great apes.

Shelly Williams, 49, was shot once in the back about 2:30 p.m. Monday in the parking lot of a retail center on Spring Road, said Smyrna police Capt. Keith Zgonc. "At this time it appears that the victim of the shooting, Shelly Williams, was an innocent bystander and had no connection to the suspects," Zgonc said Tuesday.

Primatologist Shelly Williams was an innocent bystander during a drug-related shooting, police say.

Williams' husband, Al Hostetter, said the retired primatologist, who holds a doctorate in psychology, remained in critical condition in intensive care at Atlanta Medical Center on Tuesday.

"She has to remain completely still," Hostetter said. The bullet, which passed through her spinal cord, grazed the nerve before glancing off her liver and lodging in her diaphragm. "She can shake her head yes and no, but the doctors said they can't remove the bullet until she is more stable," he said.

The parking lot of the retail strip center at 2800 Spring Road was evidently the site of a botched drug transaction that resulted in someone firing a single gunshot, possibly unintentionally, Zgonc said.

Occupants of a silver Dodge Durango seen speeding from the parking lot and a white, newer-model Dodge crew cab pickup truck are believed to have been involved in the shooting, Zgonc said. One of the vehicles has a right-side passenger window that is missing where the gunshot shattered the glass, he said.

Leads from cellphone records of one of the people allegedly involved in the drug deal provided information leading police to tentatively identify some participants, Zgonc said. No arrests had been made, he said. Police would not say how they obtained the records.

Williams is credited as the first scientist to identify a previously unknown group of large apes in the jungles of Central Africa. The animals, with characteristics of both gorillas and chimpanzees, were sighted by Williams in 2002 in the northern Democratic Republic of Congo.

A report about Williams' discovery of the mysterious creatures published in 2004 in the British magazine New Scientist said that if the apes are confirmed to be a new species of primate, it could be one of the most important wildlife discoveries in decades.

Williams lives about a half-mile from the retail center. She had just picked up two pairs of slacks that had been altered, said seamstress Vuoch Taing. Williams paid for her alterations at 2:23 p.m., Taing said.

"She seemed fine when she came in, not mad or upset or anything," Taing said Tuesday. "She said 'Have a nice day' and left.' "

Taing said she returned to her sewing machine in the rear of her shop and did not hear the shot. She became aware of the shooting after seeing an ambulance pull up outside.
Williams captured the previously unknown apes on video during a visit to the Congo in 2002. She described her encounter with them in the New Scientist article.

"Four suddenly came rushing out of the bush towards me," she told the magazine. "If this had been a bluff charge, they would have been screaming to intimidate us. These guys were quiet. And they were huge. They were coming in for the kill. I was directly in front of them, and as soon as they saw my face, they stopped and disappeared."

In a January article in Time magazine, Williams defended her discovery against scientific critics who have discounted her methods.

"The unique characteristics they exhibit just don't fit into the other groups of great apes," she told Time. The primates could be a new species, a new subspecies of chimpanzee or a hybrid of chimpanzee and gorilla, she said. "At the very least, we have a unique, isolated chimp culture that's unlike any that's been studied," she said.
Devious Ape
icon_cry.gif
Huntster
Sad news, indeed.

Crime sucks.
Desertyeti
QUOTE
There is no evidence of them being 6 feet tall, bipedal, chasing or killing lions, howling at the moon, or any of that other bizarre anecdotal reports. Most of this can be attributed to folklore, exaggeration, misinterpretation and lots of other cultural factors. Look at the early reports of virtually any animal before it was known and you will find the same stuff.


Interesting stuff though. This suggests that a lot of "native" annecdotes about supposed BFs should also be treated as entirely speculative until such behaviors are actually observed and repeatedly confirmed by qualified researchers. This doesn't imply that researchers (amateurs, pros, naturalists, or primatologists, etc.) should assume all locals are liars, or idiots, or see them in any other derogitory light, just that exaggeration can be employed by anyone to make a story a bit more exciting or spooky.
Still...I'll miss those damned, giant apes! sad.gif
rockinkt
QUOTE(Desertyeti @ Nov 9 2005, 11:24 AM)
Interesting stuff though.  This suggests that a lot of "native" annecdotes about supposed BFs should also be treated as entirely speculative until such behaviors are actually observed and repeatedly confirmed by qualified researchers.  This doesn't imply that researchers (amateurs, pros, naturalists, or primatologists, etc.) should assume all locals are liars, or idiots, or see them in any other derogitory light, just that exaggeration can be employed by anyone to make a story a bit more exciting or spooky.
Still...I'll miss those damned, giant apes! sad.gif

So true Desertyeti.
There are lots of well documented stories from Native Indians in Canada who claim giant beavers walked bi-pedal and kidnapped their women. Women were also reported to have given birth to beaver/human offspring. Sound familiar???
I quoted sources in the past on this topic - but don't have the inclination to look them up again. The writings were also quoted in the history of the Hudson Bay Company written by Peter C. Newman (Company of Adventurers)

edited to fix quote
Desertyeti
Hmmmmmmm...giant bipedal beavers.... huh.gif
Now there's something I'd like to see!!
Devious Ape
QUOTE(Desertyeti @ Nov 9 2005, 01:05 PM)
Hmmmmmmm...giant bipedal beavers.... huh.gif
Now there's something I'd like to see!!

Oregon State Football

cool.gif
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