I found a reference in the article to an unknown animal bone found at one of the campsites of the Donner's. Weren't they smack dab in the middle of BF country? Would be interesting to know if they encountered any BF.

This is a stretch I know, just thought it was an interesting thought.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...0000EDT0210.DTL

They could use that story as a foundation for a good scary movie. That whole story just has a creepy sound to it.

"They ate their remaining cattle and their dogs, they tried to hunt and fish, and for months they boiled leather and ate the resulting glue before they resorted to cannibalism.

"The general public understands the reasons for cannibalism now," Paige said. "They realize the pioneers had no choice. What would you do in that situation if you were starving and had kids to feed?"

Well, the dogs and me would have walked out well fed!

The Donner dinner party is just another example how even hardy pioneering folk can get over their collective heads in a matter of days in the wilderness.

The worse part is that they drove themselves into that area, assuming that they could make it through the passes, despite the warnings of others not to make the attempt. My theory is that the men could have survived if not for the burden of the women and children. Not that the women were not tough as nails but, the women were regulated to caring for the children and the sick, causing them to become relatively immobile. Given the ability to pick up camp and travel any distance to better hunting grounds would have saved them all.

As for BF, I wouldn't be surprised if BF didn't learn very quickly to avoid humans travelling in groups like this. Surely they made a lot of noise on the move. Plus, if food was that scarce for the Donner party, its likely any BF would have moved on before things got really tough. One huge advantage for BF is that, as a large animal, they can travel considerable distances, between meals, to reach better pastures.

Good points Enkidu, I hadn't thought about the lack of game issue. BF most likely would have moved on to someplace more viable.

Barkley...........LOL, you AND the dogs?

I always have a hard time with one thing why didn't they try to lay in supplies of game before the really bad weather set in.

I have now in my own home preserved meat in confit. Pieces of meat preserved in its own fat. Trust me it is very filling. Certainly some of these techniques were known to them.

That they resorted to cannibalism in the end is forgivable. I have just finished reading the Bouny about the mutiny on the Bounty. Also I have read the Essex about the Moby Dick whale story. The History Channel showed the rugby team that crashed in the Andes in the '70s and how they survived. To me the Donner party had the best chance to survive without cannibalism.

Heard or Read somewhere that they did seen a few behind trees durning the snow storm.
Can't remember just where.


Belle

Where they were trapped by the winter snows at donner pass, well at winter there isn't anything to eat really. Deer migrate down the hill. Other critters den up for the winter. A great scary story would be if they were trapped there for the winter and the local bigfoots began tormenting them at night and then hunted the party till no one was left. There was some cheesy b movie called Dog Soldiers on cable like a month ago about werewolves who hunt these British Commando's and trap them in an old house. It was scary but very cheaply done.

Heather that area is major monkey territory, lots of sighting reports on western edge of the Sierra's from Highway 80 down thru 50, 88, and 4. Its some nasty high moutain rocky stuff, I wouldn't want to wagon train across.

Lew-- I saw that movie a couple of months ago.......it was a great story but poorly done

I've only done some limited reading on the Donner's, how many of them survived?

James Eddy provided food for some of the stranded emigrants before leaving with the "Snowshoe Party" sometime in Dec. There's an interesting account of him shootin and killing a Bear for food in late Nov, early Dec. I wonder? I'll dig it up and post the article.


Ah, Keseberg the Cannibal.
He was the one found by the Fourth relief party led by Willian Fallon. Kese, who'd eaten Tanner Donner's Husband's brains just before the Fourth parties arrival![ :yuck: ]...While an Ox shoulder sat close by, in their Cabin, untouched! As observed by Fallon and the party.

Willaim Keyburg later exclaimed how sweet Tanners brains had tasted.. :yuck:
He was by far the worst of the whole bunch. He passed on Beef, favoring human flesh.. He also ate James Eddy's children, whom Eddy had left in Keseberg's care.
Eddy told Keseberg at the time of the Third relief party that he would kill him on sight, if he ever saw him again after the odreal. Can't say I'd blame him..
It was a mess..

I read a book covering the details of the Donner party, and it was a tragedy indeed. As for cannibalism, they tried their best to avoid it, and only ate from those who had already died. There's a big difference between that and killing a human for food. Also, this was due to starvation and not some sort of sicko thing like with Jeffrey Dahmer.

I think COCO B says it best:

Keseburg the Cannibal:
The Third Relief, according to Eddy as told to Thornton: "Messrs. Eddy, Foster, Thompson, and Miller, started at about 4 o'clock, on the following morning, for the Mountain Camp, where they arrived at about 10 o'clock, A.M. A more shocking picture of distress and misfortune, can not be imagined, than the scene they witnessed upon their arrival. Many of those who had been detained by the snows had starved to death. Their bodies had been devoured by the wretched survivors; and their bones were lying in and around the camps. ... Something was absolutely necessary to be done to sustain their miserable existence; yet all of them, except Kiesburg, had refrained from this most monstrous food as long as any thing else could be had. ... This man also devoured Mr. Eddy's child, ... and was among the first to communicate the fact to him. ... Such was the horrible and emaciated appearance of this man that Mr. Eddy, as he informed me, could not shed his blood there; but he resolved to kill him upon his landing at San Francisco, if he ever came to the place.

Eddy's battle with the Bear, Nov 14th 1846:
"According to Thornton, describing Eddy's huntng: "The next day, very faint from want of food, he resumed his hunting, and at length came upon an enormously large grisly-bear track. Under other circmstances, he would have preferred seeing the tracks of one to seeing the animal itself. But now, weak and faint as he was, he was eager to come up with it. .... He was not long in finding the object of his search. At the distance of about ninety yards, he saw the bear, with its head to the ground, engaged in digging roots. The beast was in a small skirt of prairie, and Mr. Eddy, taking advantage of a large firtree near which he was at the moment, kept himself in concealment. Having put into his mouth the only bullet that was not in his gun, so that he might quickly reload in case of an emergency, he deliberately fired. The bear immediately reared upon its hind feet, and seeing the smoke from Mr. Eddy's gun, ran fiercely toward him, with open jaws. By the time the gun was reloaded, the bear reached the tree, and, with a fierce growl, pursued Mr. Eddy round it, who, running swifter than the animal, came up with it in the rear, and disabled it by a shot in the shoulder, so that it was no longer able to pursue him. He then dispatched the bear by knocking it on the head with a club. Upon examination, he found that the first shot had pierced its heart. He then returned to Mountain Camp for assistance to bring in his prize. Graves and Eddy went out after the bear. ... They, however, finally contrived to get in the bear after dark. Mr. Eddy gave one half to Mr. Foster for the use of the gun. A part of it was likewise given to Mr. Graves and to Mrs. Reed. The bear weighed about 800 lbs."

Here's a link:
Donner Part
Good read if you have a strong stomach...

Did you say CHESSY? P L E A S E !!!
I thought it was one of the best WEREWOLF movies out there, excluding HOWLING of course!

Belle

Story of Fourth Relief Parties arrival at the cabins:

"In 1879, Keseberg gave a statement to C.F. McGlashan: "Oh! the days and weeks of horror which I passed in that camp! I had no hope of being rescued, until I saw the green grass coming up by the spring on the hillside, and the wild geese coming to nibble it. The birds were coming back to their breeding grounds, and I felt that I could kill them for food. I also had plenty of tobacco and a good meerschaum pipe, and almost the only solace I enjoyed was smoking. In my weak condition it took me two or three hours every day to get sufficient wood to keep my fire going.
Some time after Mrs. Donner's death, I thought I had gained sufficient strength to redeem the pledge I had made to her before her death. I started to go to the camps at Alder Creek to get the money. I had a very difficult journey. The wagons of the Donners were loaded with tobacco, powder, caps, shoes, school-books, and dry-goods. This stock was very valuable, and had it reached California would have been a fortune to the Donners. I searched carefully among the bales and bundles of goods, and found five hundred and thirty-one dollars. Part of this sum was silver, part gold. The silver I buried at the foot of a pine tree, a little way from the camp. One of the lower branches of another tree reached down close to the ground, and appeared to point to the spot. I put the gold in my pocket, and started to return to my cabin. I had spent one night at the Donner tents."

Saturday, April 17, 1847

Fallon's Journal of the Fourth Relief: "April 17th. Reached the Cabins between 12 and 1 o'clock. Expected to find some of the sufferers alive, Mrs. Donner and Kiesburg in particular. Entered the cabins and a horrible scene presented itself,--human bodies terribly mutiliated, legs, arms, and sculls scattered in every direction. One body, supposed to be that of Mrs. Eddy, lay near the entrance, the limbs severed off and a frightful gash in the scull. The flesh from the bones was nearly consumed and a painful stillness pervaded the place. The supposition was that all were dead, when a sudden shout revived our hopes, and we flew in the direction of the sound, three Indians were hitherto concealed, started from the ground and fled at our approach, leaving behind their bows and arrows. We delayed two hours in searching the cabins, during which we were obliged to witness sights from which we would have fain turned away, and which are too dreadful to put on record.--We next started for 'Donner's camp' 8 miles distant over the mountains. After traveling about half way, we came upon a track in the snow, which excited our suspicion, and we determined to pursue it. It brought us to the camp of Jacob Donner, where it had evidently left that morning. There we found property of every description, books, calicoes, tea, coffee, shoes, percussion caps, household and kitchen furniture scattered in every direction, and mostly in the water. At the mouth of the tent stood a large iron kettle filled with human flesh cut up, it was the body of Geo. Donner, the head had been split open, and the brains extracted thereform, and to the appearance, he had not been long dead, and over three or four days at the most. Near by the kettle stood a chair, and thereupon three legs of a bullock that had been shot down in the early part of the winter, and snowed under before it could be dressed. The meat was found sound and good, and with the exception of a small piece out of the shoulder, wholly untouched. We gathered up some property and camped for the night."

In 1879, Keseberg gave a statement to C.F. McGlashan: "On my return I became lost. When it was nearly dark, in crossing a little flat, the snow suddenly gave way under my feet, and I sank down almost to my armpits. By means of the crust on top of the snow, I kept myself suspended by throwing out my arms. A stream of water flowed underneath the place over which I had been walking, and the snow had melted on the underside until it was not strong enough to support my weight. I could not touch bottom with my feet, and so could form no idea of the depth of the stream. By long a careful exertion I managed to draw myself backward and up on the snow. I then went around on the hillside, and continued my journey. At last, just at dark, completely exhausted and almost dead, I came in sight of the Graves cabin. I shall never forget my joy at the sight of that log-cabin. I felt I was no longer lost, and would at least have shelter. Some time after dark I reached my own cabin. My clothes were wet by getting in the creek, and the night was so cold that my garments were frozen into sheets of ice. I was so weary, and chilled, and numbed, that I did not build up a fire, or attempt to get anything to eat, but lay there shivering with cold; and when I finally slept, I slept very soundly."

Fallon's Journal of the Fourth Relief: "April 18. Commenced gathering the most valuable property, suitable for our packs, the greater portion requiring to be dried. We then made them up and camped for the night."

In 1879, Keseberg gave a statement to C.F. McGlashan: "I did not wake up until quite late in the next morning. To my utter astonishment my camp was in the most inexplicable confusion. My trunks were broken open, and their contents were scattered everywhere. Everything about the cabin was torn up and thrown about the floor. My wife' s jewelry, my cloak, my pistol and ammunition were missing. I supposed Indians had robbed my camp during my absence."

Monday, April 19, 1847
Fallon's Journal of the Fourth Relief: "April 19. This morning Foster, Rhodes, and J. Foster started with small packs for the first cabins intending from thence to follow the trail of the person that had left the morning previous. The other three remained behind to cache and secure the goods necessarily left there. Knowing the Donners had a considerable sum of money, we searched diligently but were unsuccessful. The party for the cabins were unable to keep the trail of the mysterious personage owing to the rapid melting of the snow, they therefore went direct for the cabins, and upon entering discovered Kiesburg lying down amidst the human bones and beside him a large pan full of fresh liver and lights. They asked him what had become of his companions, whether they were alive, and what had become of Mrs. Donner. He answered them by stating they were all dead; Mrs. Donner, he said, had in attempting to cross form one cabin to another, missed the trail, and slept out one night; that she came to his camp the next night very much fatigued, he made her a cup of coffee, placed her in bed and rolled her well in the blankets, but the next morning found her dead; he eat her body and found her flesh the best he had ever tasted! He further stated that he obtained from her body at least four pounds of fat! No traces of her person could be found, nor the body of Mrs. Murphy either.--When the last company left the camp, three weeks previous, Mrs Donner was in perfect health though unwilling to come out and leaver her husband there, and offrered $500 to any person or persons who could come out and bring them in, saying this in the presence of Kiesburg, and she had plenty of tea and coffee, we suspected that it was her sho had taken the piece from the shoulder of beef in the chair before mentioned. In the cabin with Kiesburg was found two kettles of human blood, in all supposed to be over one gallon Rhodes asked him where he had got the blood, he answered, "there is blood in dead bodies,"--they asked him numerous questions, but he appeared embarassed and equivocated a great deal, and in reply to their asking him where Mrs. Donner's money was, he evinced confusion and answered, that he knew nothing about it.--that she must have cached it before she died--"I have'nt it" said he, "nor the money, nor the property of any person, living or dead!" They then examined his bundle and found silks and jewelry, which had been taken from the camp of the Donners, and amounting in value to about $200; on his person they discoverd a brace of pistols, recognized to be those of Geo. Donner, and while taking them from him discovered something concealed in his waistcoat, which on being opened was found to be $225 in gold.
Before leaving the settlements, the wife of Keysburg had told us that we would find but little money about him; the men therefore said to him that they knew he was lying to them, and hes was well aware of the place of concealment of the Donner's money; he declared before heaven, he knew nothing concerning it, and that he had not the property of any one in his possession; they told him that to lie to them would effect nothing, that there were others back at the cabins, who unless informed of the spot where the treasure was hidden, would not hesitate to hang him upon the first tree. Their threats were of no avail, he still affirmed his ignorance and innocence, and Rhodes took him aside and talked to him kindly, telling him that if he would give the information desired, he should receive from their hands the best of treatment, and be in every way assisted, otherwise, the party back at Donners' camp, would, upon his arrival and refusal to discover to them the place where he had deposited this money, immediately put him to death; it was all to no purpose, however, and they prepared to return to us, leaving him in charge of his packs, and assuring him of their determination to visit him in the morning, and he must make up his mind during the night. They then started back and joined us at Donner's Camp"

In 1879, Keseberg gave a statement to C.F. McGlashan: "Suddenly I was startled by the sound of human voices. I hurried up to the surface of the snow, and saw white men coming toward the cabin. I was overwhelmed with joy and gratitude at the prospect of my deliverance. I had suffrered so much, and for so long a time, that I could scarcely believe my senses. Imagine my astonishment upon their arrival to be greeted, not with a 'good morning' or a kind word, but with the gruff, insolent demand, 'Where is Donner's money?'
I told them they ought to give me something to eat, and that I would talk with them afterwards, but no, they insisted that I should tell them about Donner's money. I asked them who they were, and where they came from, but they replied by threatening to kill me if I did not give up the money. They threatened to hang or shoot me, and at last I told them. I had promised Mrs. Donner that I would carry her money to her children, and I proposed to do so, unless shown some authority by which they had a better claim.. This so exasperated them, that they acted as though they were going to kill me. I offered to let them bind me as a prisoner, and take me before the alcalde at Sutter's Fort, and I promised that I would then tell all I knew about the money."

The Kesebergs and Hardkoop
Lewis Keseberg was the most infamous, and vilified, member of the Donner Party.


Lewis Keseberg, 32, was the last member of the Party to be rescued, by the Fourth Relief. Upon his arrival at Sutter's Fort, he filed an action for defamation against Ned Coffeemeyer. Presumably the allegedly defamatory statements were the stories spread by the Fourth Relief that Keseberg had killed Mrs. Donner for her money. The court found for Keseberg, but awarded him only one dollar in damages. Keseberg captained Sutter's launch Sacramento, later opened a boarding house in Sacramento. Much was made of this, such as George McKinstry's 1851 letter to Captain Kern: "Old Keseberg, the Man-eater, has made a fortune, and is now keeping a Restaurant in K St., Sac, City, I would like to board there, I wouldn't!" Keseberg later opened a brewery. The Kesebergs had eight children in California, none of whom lived past thirty years of age, and several of whom were mentally retarded. Keseberg died in 1895.
His wife, Philippine, 23, was rescued by the First Relief. She died in 1877.
Daughter, Ada, 3, was taken out by the First Relief, but died on about February 25, 1847, near present Kingvale.
Son, Lewis, Jr., new born on the Trail, died at the Lake cabins on January 4, 1847.
Teamster Charles Berger (or Karl Burger), 30, died at the Lake cabins on December 29, 1846.
The old Belgian Hardkoop, about 60, who had joined the Donner Party at Fort Bridger, was put out of the wagon by Keseberg on October 8, 1846, near present Winemucca, Nevada, and failed to make it to camp.

Very Sorry if I derailed this thread.....
Monte

As I stated before, the Donner fiasco could have been avoided given the proper leadership and woodsmanship.

These people had no reason to attempt a crossing through the pass when they did other than they were in a hurry. And as anyone who spends any time in the woods will tell you, in a hurry gets you nothing but hurt or even killed.

In addition, weather is always a force of nature that must be respected and that they failed to do so cost them their lives. In the mountains, you should expect early/late cold snaps and snows. By several accounts, they were warned of the potential problems before they departed and by ignoring the suggestions of others to winter over east of the pass, they sealed their own fate.

How utterly grusome!!! Those people were doomed fromt he start it seems.

Can anyone recommend a good book on the Donner party? It seems as if lots were written, and I was hoping someone would know if a particular one was worthwhile.

Thanks!
Sujen

Map to Hell...

Memorialized...

Statue...

There is a possible Indian account of Two White men from a Wagon Train who found and tore up the the Indian's encampment and supplies they had been gathering for the coming winter. It also fits in the time frame that the Donners went through this area as they were the last wagon train through in 46. The Indians said to the effect that it was the last Wagon Train that had gone through before the snows.
This account may have been Reese and another, while out hunting ahead of the Wagontrain.

It states that in retaliation, the Indians killed a very large number of oxen that had escaped from the settlers while in the desert. This would have happened when the Party ran out of water during the last month of the desert. When the cattle had gotten away from the settlers, upon leaving the wagons behind and driving the Oxen for water, many were lost. This may explain why the settler didn't find more of the beasts. If it wasn't for this one event, they may have made too Sutter's Fort.

Although their progress throughout the summer had been significantly slower than other parties traveling at the same time period, in comparison. They still had a chance before that last incident. Even if they wouldn't have made it through the pass, the party would have had a significantly larger food supply. They still quite possibly could have made it through, if wasn't for losing the Oxen as it slowed travel through the pass greatly. The Reed's had a Wagon that was called the "Prairy Palace" that was very heavy and contributed too slowing progress, after losing the Oxen...Especially that last part of the journey, they really needed ALL of their Oxen.


Also what Ekidu said is very true about the previous warnings, they had been forewarned and wasted way too much time. But if true, and eventhough they still had a chance before this--the Indian account was most assuredly the Final Nail in the Coffin for the Donners...


Monte
PS The server is down till later-on, so this last one is all off the top of my head...Could'nt copy and paste...Some details may have faded from my memory...Appologies for my lacking,, writing abillities.

Did you mean Statue or Saute?

Thanks Monte, that's a lot of cool information

Sujen
Check out "Trial By Hunger"
I can't remember the name of the Author offhand, but you can find it on the link I provided. Along with lots of other articles, links, etc.
Also that link has most of the stories and accounts right there too read, check it out if you can..
Monte

Heather
I just hope I didn't derail your thread too much.
Thank's much..
Monte

Belle--

The best Werewolf movie ever made was...................

An American Werewolf in London

Thanks, Monte!

Oh gosh no.....I loved reading through the info. on them.

See the movie "Ravenous".

It has the same type of theme as the Donner Party.

I agree.

"An American Werewolf in London" is my favorite too.

Taken care of...

Glad you liked the read!
I had actually read the whole account a few months ago, so it's still "somewhat" fresh in the memory banks.
Sure glad we weren't with them....

Small World,
I live 26 miles from Marysville CA: Named after Mary Murphy of the Donner party and the dreaded "Snowshoe Pary." The ones who murdered the two Indian too eat them!
And live about 60 or 70 miles from Donner Lake, maybe less as a crow flies.
Monte

PS American Werewolf In London "Rocked"...

Sean
Havn't seen that one. Is it a new release?

Monte

No, it's been out for a while.

1995 or 1996 I think.

Cool, thank's man...

Why did they leave body parts laying out and strewn about? I would think that they would want to preserve them in someway to have food. Did they sink into a psychosis or something?

I'm new to this board, just registered a few days ago as I'm researching the BF from a different perspective. I found this discussion pretty interesting as I was born and raised in Yosemite and now reside in Colorado.

As for a comment on the Donner Party, it was pretty arrogant of the party itself to think that they could conquer unknown territory such as the Sierra Nevada Range. To ignore the warnings shows arrogance and ignorance on their part.

Now to bring the topic of BF into this, isn't it a little arrogant to not think that a possible North American primate, other than ourselves, could have survived and still reside into this modern day and age?

I just watched the "Sasquatch:Legend meets science" DVD. I've always been a believer in the BF, being raised with oral traditions. I've never needed science to convince me of the stories, not myths or legends.

The Donner Party was doomed from the beginning. They should've learned a thing or two from the local natives.

Peace out,

Wouldn't you? I know I would have...

TQW

I didn't realize there was so many people in the party. I saw on the monument that one lewis died and one survived....

That movie "Alive" about the south american soccer players reminds me of this story as welll.



I saw american werewolf in paris with julie delphy and thomas something, never saw the original.

Just a thought here, I've read the Donner story any number of times over the years as many of you have no doubt. Some things bother me, other than the human cannibalism, which believe it or not I can understand given their circumstances and the choices they were left with...

More to the point, ....a grizzly in April weighing 800 pounds?
What's wrong with that picture?

Bobbie Short


.

I did a google on the Donner Party and found this link at PBS.


The American Experience - The Donner Party

It doesn't say when it was on or where you can see it though........unless I missed something. You can buy the dvd through their website, I wonder if any of the rental stores might have it?

Hi Bobbie. Thanks for dropping by.

I think it could have been possible. I have seen MANY grizzes well over 800lbs...

Then again, it was April.

Huntster, any opinion?


TQW

Nothing, from my viewpoint. Even as far north as Alaska, April is when the spring bear hunting season begins. Boars start coming out of their dens as early as the first week in April around here.

In California, even at the high altitudes in the Sierras, that would be an ideal time for the bears to start waking up.

And the grizzlies of California were just as big as the Alaskan versions. "Ben Franklin", the original Grizzly Adam's favorite bear, was a 1500 lb. boar.

Hunster answered my question

I have always thought that the Donner Party could have done much better.

I mentioned the Essex and the Bounty in an earlier post. It is interesting to note that in the event of shipwreck, and possible survival afterward, there was a certain code of honor with regard to the possibility of cannibalism. The accounts that I have read about the Essex in particular convey such a sense of respest and love for the person whose body would be consumed that one is neither grossed out nor feels disgusted reading the account. The same with the Andes story. Those guys to this day feel a very deep connection to those that did not survive.


I still have problems with the Donner party though. First, I cannot overlook their arrogance in trying to make the trip. I also think that in October and early November something could have been done to cook and preserve meat to survive on. How could they not think that it would not be bleak to say the least in winter. this is certainly not the first time they had encountered, winter, snow, cold and a covered wagon. Had this been the first leg of the trek and they messed up so bad I could say well they were not ready. But it's not like the first few miles they had been travelling for a while and should have known better all around. I think greed played a huge role in some of their decisions.


If they had encountered Bigfoot that could have indeed induced insanity in the group. If they were arrogant enough to make the trip in the first place, imagine their attitude toward a big monkey.

Bobbie
Wasn't the 800 pound bear the one shot by James Eddy Nov 14th? And a smaller Cub being shot by members of the third relief in April? [The website is down so I can't back access the last part till later]
Hey, maybe those Grizzly Bears weren't Bears at all...


Heather
I think by the time the Fourth relief party reached the cabins in March, much snow had melted possibly uncovering bodies that had previousely been covered, frozen in snow. Also, from what I've read, the condition of the Imigrints had not been good, it may have been very difficult for them dealing with the dead bodies. That's just my take on it.

If it wasn't for the Donner group losing their Oxen, I feel they would have made it through, atleast too a point where they could've made a better go of things, closer to Sutter's Fort. Everyone must remember that Stanton and Reese had already gone ahead of the Train and were in the process of setting up relief efforts. If the Party could've made it too Bear Valley even, the situation may not have been so tragic. IMHO.

Susan,
Haven't seen it listed at any of the rental stores, but I bet you can find it at the Local Library!


Belle

BTW.....thanks for the link!

err, ummm, could you be thinking of Bart the Bear? Bart the Bear - was (in his prime) an Alaskan Kodiak brown bear featured in a number of movies and seen on television from time to time (including appearances cub on GRIZZLY ADAMS/NBC/1977-78 and he did weigh 1500 pounds as an adult. California's grizzlies were never as big as any Kodiak up in your area. He was also trained, pampered, well fed and didn't hibernate.

.... ah but anyway.......my thought was ...if the tracks were seen in April...just out of a long winter's nap, no griz in California ever weighed 800 pounds, especially a female with suckling cubs or a boar. In weather as bad as it was that particular year in Donner, I imagine even the males hibernated, they may have entered a den weighing 800 lbs but they didn't awaken weighing that much. If they saw tracks before April, back into January of that year, and the weather being what it was that year, why wasn't that grizzy hibernating.....if it was a griz?

California's Grizzly bears are or rather were half the size of Bart, or any Kodiak; were never as big as other Alaskan brown bears up in your area. I will check again, but I believe there are several archived articles in the San Diego Union Tribune that counted the last of the California grizzlies in the mid 1800's...even here in San Diego County in a town that used to be named "Bear Valley" ...it is now Valley Center. The early settlers killed them all to keep the grizzlies from mauling, killing and eating their children on their long walks to the only school house in the area at the time. Back then, it was a full days horse and buggy ride from Bear Valley to San Diego. Today, the drive is maybe 45 minutes via 8 lane freeways.

I was just musing outloud over a "winter grizzly" weighing a purported 800 lbs in a wretched northern California winter . Here in Californias, even 200 years ago, that weight makes no sense to me.

Wish we had sketches of the tracks.

Bobbie Short