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The Madness
Here is an article that was published in today's edition of the Toronto Star by Jay Ingram (Discovery Channel Canada). Some of you may remember him as the guy who wore a 'bigfoot' suit on earlier episodes of Jay's Journal and most recently his interview with Greg Long.

QUOTE
Debunking book stomps on Bigfoot footage


JAY INGRAM

Most of the time I write about science, but sometimes I write about "science."

"Science" topics have a scientific veneer, but a little scraping and sanding reveals there's nothing underneath. UFO's, crop circles and the Loch Ness monster are all perfect examples, but my favourite is Bigfoot, although this man-ape of the Pacific Northwest has just taken a shot that might put him down forever.

A man with a skeptical bent, Greg Long, has published a book, The Making Of Bigfoot — The Inside Story, in which he claims to have found not only the man who wore the gorilla suit in the famous 1967 film of a female Bigfoot but also the guy who supplied the suit.

There is no doubt that the film has been the best — although not the only — piece of evidence for the animal. It is about 60 seconds of hastily shot footage of a female Bigfoot ambling across a clearing in northern California. Two men, Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin, claimed to have stumbled across the creature as they wandered through the woods.

The odds against acceptance of the film should have been pretty high. After all, the two men had announced in advance they were out looking for a Bigfoot and no other convincing visual record of the animal has turned up since. But even though there were plenty of people who immediately dismissed it as a hoax, the film is still taken seriously by many.

This is where the "science" comes in: An endless number of self-proclaimed experts has analyzed the film (each asserting that his analysis has been "frame-by-frame," each using the latest technology) and found evidence that the creature in the film must be the real thing.

The movements of the muscles underneath the skin can be seen clearly, something that would be impossible for a man wearing a loose-fitting suit.

The timing and length of the strides are not human; the rotation of the torso as the animal glances back at the camera couldn't be accomplished with a suit; the arms are too long to be human — the list goes on and on.

These analyses have been muddied by the fact that Patterson wasn't sure whether the camera was set to film at 16 or 24 feet per second.

One of the best studies, decades ago, claimed that at 24 feet per second, the movements were human, but that at 16 feet per second, they couldn't be. How handy for the perpetuation of the story that there was this uncertainty!

Nonetheless, had this been a subject with no passion involved — something that didn't feed what some have called the "Goblin Universe" — the film would be gathering dust in somebody's basement by now.

But with stories like these — "science" stories — belief precedes evidence.

When things are in that order, believers can see muscle movements in what might be the loose folds of a costume or analyze stride length and somehow make the results come out on the non-human side.

Author Long argues that the man in the suit, Bob Heironimus, just walked like that. He claims to have taped Heironimus, put that tape side-by-side with the Patterson film, and they matched.

Admittedly, there are inconsistencies in Long's account. Heironimus remembers the suit being a three-piece affair, while the man who purportedly made it and supplied it, claims it had six pieces.

Why the breasts, which didn't come with the suit? Why did Heironimus remember the suit having a terrible smell when it was an off-the-shelf gorilla suit? What eventually happened to the suit?

All these questions, however incidental to the story, will of course allow believers to soldier on. (If you don't believe me, check out the customer reviews of the book at http://www.amazon.com). Remember, it's belief before evidence, not the other way around.

In the end, that's what makes stories like this so fascinating. It's not the big, undiscovered primate that somehow continues to elude discovery in the Pacific Northwest — it's the people who still search for it.

And you know, a little part of me goes with those people.

I confess to disappointment that the whole Bigfoot saga seems to have come down to some guys wanting to make a lot of money from a gorilla suit. It's so unromantic.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Ingram hosts the Daily Planet show on the Discovery Channel.
bf2004
This doesn't surprise me in the least. Witness his extremely biased interview with Long at http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/ and you'll see what I mean. Ingram is the kind of opposition we BF'ers are up against.
tarran
Mr. Ingram forgot to add in his article, "Even though these guys have no proof of their claim, I will take their word for it because I am an irresponsible journalist who does not investigate the claims people make, and takes everyone at their word, and therefore this must be true because Greg Long and Bob H. say so."
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
QUOTE
Admittedly, there are inconsistencies in Long's account. Heironimus remembers the suit being a three-piece affair, while the man who purportedly made it and supplied it, claims it had six pieces.

QUOTE
Why the breasts, which didn't come with the suit? Why did Heironimus remember the suit having a terrible smell when it was an off-the-shelf gorilla suit? What eventually happened to the suit?
Yes, there are many inconsistencies and contradictions in the story and the book, but that doesn't matter to irresponsible, sloppy and biased journalists such as yourself Mr. Ingram!!

QUOTE
Remember, it's belief before evidence, not the other way around.
Oh really Mr. Ingram? and may I ask where Long and Bob's evidence is??
Time for me to send off another E-mail!! new_whistle.gif :rolleyes: wink.gif

QUOTE
I confess to disappointment that the whole Bigfoot saga seems to have come down to some guys wanting to make a lot of money from a gorilla suit. It's so unromantic.
The whole Bigfoot Saga?? and Mr. Ingram did it ever occur to you that Mr. Long and Sideshow Bob are trying to make alot of money off this story and farce of a book?? unsure.gif blink.gif
Also, Have you "READ THE BOOK" Mr. Ingram?? If you did you would understand just how contradictive and baseless Mr. Long's and sideshow Bob's claims really are!! :rolleyes: new_whistle.gif
Seems to me the ones who are trying to make alot of money off a gorilla suit are Long and company with their unproven and very contradictive claims!! I know one thing, even if I could get your show, I certainly would never watch it!!
new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
StacyInMI
What an idiot, what a disgrace to his profession. dry.gif
GrandCherokee
.....a worthy individual.....
HarryHenderson
QUOTE(StacyInMI @ Apr 4 2004, 11:14 AM)
What an idiot, what a disgrace to his profession. dry.gif

Boy, you couldn't have said it better! He really IS an idiot...and I mean by the accepted definition. smile.gif

id-i-ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at SUICIDE
1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person

This quote from his 'story' speaks for itself and to that definition.
QUOTE
All these questions, however incidental to the story, will of course allow believers to soldier on. (If you don't believe me, check out the customer reviews of the book at http://www.amazon.com). Remember, it's belief before evidence, not the other way around.

"All these questions, however incidental to the story..."? That's his simple MINDED way of saying (without saying it) he "can't allow the facts to get in the way of the story."
"...it's belief before evidence..."? I'm telling ya mister writer guy...CRACK KILLS! If this Jay aka 'amateur writer person' can justify saying WE 'believers' have ONLY 'belief' and 'no evidence' then he needs to quit sniffin' the glue and get BACK ON the Prozac. The ONLY person that I see using the "belief before evidence" dogma is one GREG LONG. I swear to god, these 'writer guys' (I find it hard to call them journalists) like him go to some half-wit college, get a dubious degree (with a C average MAYBE) and think 'THEY IS NOW A WRITER' because they can form a sentence that ends in a period. Being that they were absent the ONE day they taught journalism, guys like him never really KNOW what's IN the sentence, just that is IS a sentence.

It's actually quite amazing how much time we've spent on this board trying to 'intelligently' critique and respond to these MEDIOCRE books written by MEDIOCRE writers about MEDIOCRE retired pepsi bottlers and refuting MEDIOCRE reviews proffered by MEDIOCRE 'journalists' of said MEDIOCRE books. So much time and effort for naught. The sad part is WE HERE are the ones that have had to capitulate to the lowest common denominator, not the other way around.

"Harry"
Orygun
Just reading this article and not other pieces by the author do I find him skeptical but certainly not an idiot.

QUOTE
Admittedly, there are inconsistencies in Long's account. Heironimus remembers the suit being a three-piece affair, while the man who purportedly made it and supplied it, claims it had six pieces.


He's even pointing out issues in the book. And acknowledging internet critics to the book. Just because he doesn't outright trash the book doesn't mean anything.

IMHO, the writer is just looking at the evidence and has taken the time to at least look at both sides. Certainly with points for both sides still unresolved I don't think resorting to name calling is professional, more like immature. Just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs 100% doesn't mean that they are less intelligent than you.

An investigator should be open-minded, as soon as you limit your possibilities you limit your options.

You want to silence the critics? Get yourself a body. Despite the amount of secondary evidence until then the critics have every right to discuss their opinions.
StacyInMI
He's an idiot. new_tonguesmiley.gif
HarryHenderson
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 12:45 PM)
Just reading this article and not other pieces by the author do I find him skeptical but certainly not an idiot.

Well, I guess 'people' DO have right to 'cling' to their 'belief' that IF IT'S IN PRINT, it's LEGITIMATE and that it was put forth by a COMPETENT 'scribe' regardless of it's subject matter. new_whistle.gif
Orygun
QUOTE(HarryHenderson @ Apr 4 2004, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 12:45 PM)
Just reading this article and not other pieces by the author do I find him skeptical but certainly not an idiot.

Well, I guess 'people' DO have right to 'cling' to their 'belief' that IF IT'S IN PRINT, it's LEGITIMATE and that it was put forth by a COMPETENT 'scribe' regardless of it's subject matter. new_whistle.gif

King James Version or Book of Mormon? new_evil.gif
DodgeBoyz
What a sad sad case this is,I think I am going to write a book too,after all as long as it is in print it will have to be the truth....right?

Jay,you are a BOZO new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
tarran
QUOTE
the writer is just looking at the evidence and has taken the time to at least look at both sides
Oh really?? Where is Mr. Long's evidence of a hoax?? Could you please be so kind to point it out to the rest of us, so we can stop making fools of ourselves?? unsure.gif :rolleyes:
QUOTE
But with stories like these — "science" stories — belief precedes evidence.
QUOTE
When things are in that order, believers can see muscle movements in what might be the loose folds of a costume or analyze stride length and somehow make the results come out on the non-human side.

QUOTE
I confess to disappointment that the whole Bigfoot saga seems to have come down to some guys wanting to make a lot of money from a gorilla suit. It's so unromantic.
As far as looking at evidence from both sides, Mr. Long and company have no evidence, only hearsay and assumption!! There is much stronger evidence for an unknown primate in North America, and for the authenticity of the Patterson-Gimlin film then there is for Long and sideshow Bob's story and book!! Also, it is pretty obvious from watching the interview and reading the article that Mr. Ingram is a biased irresponsible IDIOT!! Oh, how childish of me!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: new_tonguesmiley.gif
QUOTE
All these questions, however incidental to the story, will of course allow believers to soldier on. (If you don't believe me, check out the customer reviews of the book at http://www.amazon.com). Remember, it's belief before evidence, not the other way around.
Yes all these unanswered incidental questions!
Who are we to question Mr. Long's book and sideshow Bob's story?? unsure.gif
QUOTE
Author Long argues that the man in the suit, Bob Heironimus, just walked like that. He claims to have taped Heironimus, put that tape side-by-side with the Patterson film, and they matched
Has Mr. Ingram or anyone else for that matter seen this alleged video?? unsure.gif blink.gif
QUOTE
He's an idiot.
With a capitol I!! blink.gif Idiot!! thumbup.gif
stanpaw
QUOTE(StacyInMI @ Apr 4 2004, 02:48 PM)
He's an idiot. new_tonguesmiley.gif

I could not have put it more plainly girl. thumbup.gif Rather obvious IMO.
Orygun
QUOTE(DodgeBoyz @ Apr 4 2004, 03:49 PM)
What a sad sad case this is,I think I am going to write a book too,after all as long as it is in print it will have to be the truth....right?

Jay,you are a BOZO

What exactly is stopping anyone here from writing a book proving the existence of bigfoot? Let alone the validity of the Patterson film?

It can't be that difficult. All you have to do it collect all the comments made against Long's theory, back it up with evidence and interviews and write a book.

A lot easier to piss and moan and call people names, eh? new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
tarran
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE(DodgeBoyz @ Apr 4 2004, 03:49 PM)
What a sad sad case this is,I think I am going to write a book too,after all as long as it is in print it will have to be the truth....right?

Jay,you are a BOZO

What exactly is stopping anyone here from writing a book proving the existence of bigfoot? Let alone the validity of the Patterson film?

It can't be that difficult. All you have to do it collect all the comments made against Long's theory, back it up with evidence and interviews and write a book.

A lot easier to piss and moan and call people names, eh? new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif

It seems it was alot easier for Bob H. to just claim he was in the suit then to actually back it up with some evidence!! And alot easier for Mr. Long to base his so called "facts" on nothing more than hearsay, allegations and just taking people's word for everything, instead of actually investigating the claims thoroughly, and requiring or producing physical evidence to support his allegations!! Also, it is so much "easier" for Mr. Long to answer legitimate questions with answers such as,
"READ THE BOOK!", "I DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING!", "YOU PEOPLE MUST DISPROVE ME!", than to actually give legitimate answers or even make an attempt to do so!! blink.gif :rolleyes: new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
And as far as name calling, Mr. Long has no problem calling a dead man names,
So if he cannot take the heat, then he needs to stay out of the kitchen!! :rolleyes:
People get what they deserve!! icon_eek.gif blink.gif :rolleyes: :rolleyes: thumbup.gif
RogerKni
Ingram didn't seem too bad in the interview, but the couple of his points quouted and scorned above by HH were really objectionable. Criticism shouldn't have wildly extrapolated from those statements. (Although I got some guilty enjoyment from reading it.)

Of course Ingram's right that those reviews on Amazon were mostly emotional, and were likely to strike many people as Believers' Ravings. But it was something of a "cheap shot" for him to select the pieces posted there as being representative of the Bigfoot community's critique, and as being purely symptomatic of Denial. Why didn't he select instead the cool, ingenious treatment of the GL book in the March issue of Bigfoot Times, for example, since it would be fairer to compare a published work to a published work? (The editor would gladly send Jay a free copy: write Bigfoot Times / 10926 Milano Av. / Norwalk CA 90650-1638. Ask to be put on the waiting list for the April issue too, which will contain the editor's detailed review.) Or why not cite BFRO's recent long response disputing GL's ape-suit hypothesis, and challenging CSICOP to replicate the Patty walk?

What will be needed to make an impression on media people is something that's easy to absorb, like a Business Card (or Cards) on the PG film (containing a boiled-down case for Patty), on the GL book, etc. (I'll have to try to put these together in the next few weeks.)

And like a Flip Book containing images of the PG creature side-by-side with images of the Greatest Hoaxes creature, the BH creature, etc. I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about this idea, which I suggested yesterday, and I hope some Bigfoot Bigshots are paying attention. If MKD and others could put together a dozen stabilized images that skeptics could flip through it would open their eyes far more than anything else to date. I'm convinced this tool would be a Winner--my "political instincts" are giving me a strong positive feeling about it. (One great thing about a Flip Book is that it could convey the intangible and inimitably ponderous quality of Patty's walk, something I really noticed only on a recent viewing. It may take repeated viewings to take note of this attribute, or the text above the flip book may have to alert the viewer to watch for it.)

Maybe such a flip book could also be used to animate the movements of the Bigfoot that's hypothesized to have knelt and leaned in the mud in Skookum Meadow. Such an animation would make its posture and traces more believable.
J-Dawg
QUOTE(RogerKni @ Apr 4 2004, 06:32 PM)
What will be needed to make an impression on media people is something that's easy to absorb, like a Business Card (or Cards) on the PG film (containing a boiled-down case for Patty), on the GL book, etc. (I'll have to try to put these together in the next few weeks.)

And like a Flip Book containing images of the PG creature side-by-side with images of the Greatest Hoaxes creature, the BH creature, etc. I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about this idea, which I suggested yesterday, and I hope some Bigfoot Bigshots are paying attention. If MKD and others could put together a dozen stabilized images that skeptics could flip through it would open their eyes far more than anything else to date. I'm convinced this tool would be a Winner--my "political instincts" are giving me a strong positive feeling about it. (One great thing about a Flip Book is that it could convey the intangible and inimitably ponderous quality of Patty's walk, something I really noticed only on a recent viewing. It may take repeated viewings to take note of this attribute, or the text above the flip book may have to alert the viewer to watch for it.)

Maybe such a flip book could also be used to animate the movements of the Bigfoot that's hypothesized to have knelt and leaned in the mud in Skookum Meadow. Such an animation would make its posture and traces more believable.

I think the only thing thats going to make an impression on media types and science types (such as Jay) is the body of a dead bigfoot...anything else to them is just rehashed theories and circumstantial evidence which does not conclusively prove anything.
bf2004
QUOTE(tarran @ Apr 4 2004, 04:31 PM)
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE(DodgeBoyz @ Apr 4 2004, 03:49 PM)
What a sad sad case this is,I think I am going to write a book too,after all as long as it is in print it will have to be the truth....right?

Jay,you are a BOZO

What exactly is stopping anyone here from writing a book proving the existence of bigfoot? Let alone the validity of the Patterson film?

It can't be that difficult. All you have to do it collect all the comments made against Long's theory, back it up with evidence and interviews and write a book.

A lot easier to piss and moan and call people names, eh? new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif

It seems it was alot easier for Bob H. to just claim he was in the suit then to actually back it up with some evidence!! And alot easier for Mr. Long to base his so called "facts" on nothing more than hearsay, allegations and just taking people's word for everything, instead of actually investigating the claims thoroughly, and requiring or producing physical evidence to support his allegations!! Also, it is so much "easier" for Mr. Long to answer legitimate questions with answers such as,
"READ THE BOOK!", "I DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING!", "YOU PEOPLE MUST DISPROVE ME!", than to actually give legitimate answers or even make an attempt to do so!! blink.gif :rolleyes: new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
And as far as name calling, Mr. Long has no problem calling a dead man names,
So if he cannot take the heat, then he needs to stay out of the kitchen!! :rolleyes:
People get what they deserve!! icon_eek.gif blink.gif :rolleyes: :rolleyes: thumbup.gif

D*mn right, tarran!!! new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
markymark
What has gotten under the skin of the sceptics, for the last 36 years, is the PG film. Why? Because it is hard evidence of the existence of something that is not supposed to exist by their accounting. So it is a thorn in their side. They can not continue to be sceptics unless they discount this film because what it shows is so clear, so unmistakable, and so authentic that it, de facto, proves that bigfoot exists. It is not a grainy, fuzzy UFO photo. What it shows is what it shows. This, for good reason, is very disturbing for them.

Ergo: Mission - DEBUNK. They've been at it a long time. But how do you debunk something that the anthropologists and other experts have not done so - at worst the most sceptical scientists can only say the results are INCONCLUSIVE. At best, many of those scientists conclude that it is genuine to their eyes. Even the claim that there was an artificial shape in the fur died on the vine. Even sceptics don't mention that one anymore. It wasn't there under examination.

So the sceptics can not debunk it from a logical point of view by using scientists or by using photo magnification. Those scientific routes have been tried and they failed. Thus, they have to debunk it somehow, even if that means just publishing a book that says "Some guy named bob told me he did it. Case solved." It's grasping at straws. It's an act of desperation. I don't thnk that Bigfoot proponents should care too much. This is a book that will sell mainly to those interested in Bigfoot. And those who are interested in Bigfoot are already familiar with the anti-suit arguments and those arguments are not addressed in the book.

In the end, the old mantra that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', remains. The PG film is extraordinary evidence. Thus, to debunk it, they need extraordinary evidence of their own. And this latest book provides none.

Many can reproduce UFO photos, bigfoot tracks, even alien bodies. But nobody yet has ever faked the bigfoot suit, the bigfoot man, or the bigfoot walk - the three fundamental elements upon which the belief in Bigfoot is founded.

As far as Jay Ingram is concerned - he is a science guy doing a science show. He can't afford to believe otherwise. Discovery.ca would probably can him if he did. And for Greg Long - he is a quasi-journalist and promoter who tries to debunk what he views as paranormal claims to make a living. His interest does not go beyond that. Nor does his research or his ethics. But that shouldn't get under our skin.
tarran
Excellent post MarkyMark!! thumbup.gif Well done!! new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
RogerKni
Very good, MM. MarkyMark & I are both sensing that GL is basically a debunker, despite his claims not to be, and that his whole book is motivated by a desire to attack Bigfoot, not just (as GL claims) the PG film. It would help pour cold water on GL's claims if attendees at meetings of the local Society for Sensible Explanations can recall him being in attendance (even if he didn't formally join the organization), or if acquaintances can be found who remember him scoffing at the whole Bigfoot-is-real thesis. Such testimony would undermine his claim to be an impartial investigator, and would provide a motive for his reckless attack on Gimlin. (EDIT: GL should be asked, if the opportunity comes up, if he regularly attended skeptics' meetings, or made scoffing statements about the Bigfoot phenomenon, or consulted extensively with activists in the skeptics' movement, or published articles or letters in skeptics' magazines.)

I think GL's reported "bizarre hatred" of Patterson is very much something that comes out of a "scoftic" mindset. It's exactly the same antipathy Randi has for spoon-benders, etc. (Since what psychics are doing CAN'T by definition be real, they're charlatans.) This antipathy toward people who disturb the sceptic's sense of reality and who therefore must be charlatans carries over to Gimlin. (A few weeks ago, taken in by GL's pretense of impartiality, I wondered where his taunting of Gimlin was "coming from"--now I think I know.)

EDIT: I don't think we should let GL get under our skin, but rather view this controversy as an opportunity to educate the public and the media by encouraging the production of a recreation of the Patty Walk, followed by commentary and slow-motion frame-by-frame analysis by PG film-analysis experts, like Glickman and MKD.
Orygun
QUOTE
In the end, the old mantra that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', remains. The PG film is extraordinary evidence. Thus, to debunk it, they need extraordinary evidence of their own. And this latest book provides none.


I wouldn't venture to classify the PG film as "extraordinary evidence", I'd perhaps place it one notch below that. Extraordinary Bigfoot evidence would be something like bones, corpse, repeated filmings, and of course, body.

Remember what the extraordinary claim is: A 7ft hairy biped traipsing throughout the country as yet not captured for scientific evaluation.

And IMHO, Long is out for one thing, money. He probably ran across a few stories about the filming and saw an opportunity to make a few bucks. If his actual intention was to debunk the film he would have been a little more careful and thorough with his investigations. And from the inconsistencies we can see that he wasn't.
cochise
QUOTE( from Ingram article)
This is where the "science" comes in: An endless number of self-proclaimed experts has analyzed the film (each asserting that his analysis has been "frame-by-frame," each using the latest technology) and found evidence that the creature in the film must be the real thing.

The movements of the muscles underneath the skin can be seen clearly, something that would be impossible for a man wearing a loose-fitting suit.

The timing and length of the strides are not human; the rotation of the torso as the animal glances back at the camera couldn't be accomplished with a suit; the arms are too long to be human — the list goes on and on.

Notice how this "journalist", and I use the term loosely, actually discounts "endless" (his word) careful scrutiny of the Patterson film and sweeps it all aside by making the baseless comment that all who've studied it are "self-proclaimed experts".


Is he not himself therefore a "self-proclaimed expert" who somehow possesses such wisdom that he can be certain none of these other people have any objectiveness or intelligence?

I call that supreme hypocrisy.

new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
markymark
QUOTE
Remember what the extraordinary claim is: A 7ft hairy biped traipsing throughout the country as yet not captured for scientific evaluation.



We are not talking about the claim of Bigfoot believers. NO. We are talking about the subject of the book - the film footage. The film footage speaks for itself. No claim is needed there, that is what is so beautiful about it. Tracks are dismissed, eyewitnesses are dismissed, hair and droppings are dismissed - but you can not dismiss what is walking across the clearing. An extraordinary piece of film is extraordinary evidence. Anything more is outright proof.

So it is now the job of the sceptic to debunk what the film clearly shows, namely a 7-ft tall bigfoot. Yet no evidence, not a shred has ever come forward to reveal a hoax. Which is, in itself, damning to the sceptics, because anything hoaxable in '67 is hoaxable today. In fact, all the sceptics have to do, is prove that such a hoax was, at least, possible in '67 - and they win to my satisfaction. Produce such a suit, produce such a huge and strangley built man to fill it, and produce such a walk and the Bigfoot community would lose its most intelligent proponents, for it is just those three things that has created the scientific belief in Bigfoot to begin with.

But we are still waiting and it's 2004.
HarryHenderson
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 08:58 PM)
...And IMHO, Long is out for one thing, money. He probably ran across a few stories about the filming and saw an opportunity to make a few bucks. If his actual intention was to debunk the film he would have been a little more careful and thorough with his investigations. And from the inconsistencies we can see that he wasn't.

Well, at least we (you and I) can agree on that if not 'other things'. wink.gif I even said essentially the same thing (albeit in a more long winded manner) earlier this evening on another post found here. smile.gif

"Harry"
RogerKni
OK, I give up--he's an idiot. mad.gif (By which I mean, that column was a disgraceful piece of work.)

Good point Cochise--the only thing I'd add is that JI also dismissed the expertise of people who've examined the film, like biomechanics expert Donskoy, and also Igor Bourtsev's determination of the film speed as 16 fps from a sophisticated motion analysis of the bounces of the frames that were jiggled while Patterson ran into position. (See America's Bigfoot, p. 165.) EDIT: One minor "challenge" believers could make to skeptics is for them to reproduce the bounce pattern in the PG film by running with a camera set at 24 fps. If they can't do it, that'll be another awkward point for them to have to try to brush aside.

I guess I was too kind because I thought his interview could have been a lot worse.

Continuing to search for reasons to excuse him, I've come up with these three: first, from my little experience of having worked as a news producer at a broadcast studio (only a college station), I know how these stories can sometimes "write themselves." One knows what the audience's expectations are about a certain topic, and one's co-workers', and one's management's, and it feels so nice to tickle them the way they want to be tickled and make them happy. Especially when it would also be pleasing to oneself and one's recent guest to do so. (The percentage of people who resist this instinctive "social" behavior and "swim upstream" (against the flow) is under 10%--and most of them do so not because they're truth-crusaders, but because they've just got a "contrary" kink and delight in being a pain.) So things just fall into an expected pattern.

Second, because it seems almost impossible for authority figures--and JI is definitely in the position of being a Science Authority--to say "I dunno--Maybe" and defer some conclusion to their "grey basket." Most of the audience wants to be listening to someone who can give them their daily "line." If their Authority-icon says I Dunno, their reaction is that they might as well be listening the village idiot, because he don't know nothin' neither. And of course the authority-figure himself would feel less disoriented if he pretends to himself that he knows Which Way is Up.

A third factor that outsiders aren't aware of is the media-lobbying effort being conducted by local skeptics' organizations (and promoted by their parent organization). Any media person who isn't tough enough on extraordinary claims for their taste gets a dose of their superior-sounding scorn. Media people are now well aware of that and (being normal humans) seek to spare themselves the bother of having to get down and dirty with a gaggle of well-spoken, sharp-tongued fanatics.

It is here, on his book tour, that GL will do his damage, not directly from his book. (Those who dismiss the book's importance by saying its sales will be small are missing this vital point.) If more show-hosts and other opinion-leaders write columns in this vein, it will lay down a new simplified "line" for up-to-date consumers to swallow and regurgitate as a sign of their hipness: "A guy confessed he was inside the suit." (Similar to the line that careless, scoff-reflex journalists promoted 16 months ago, that "A guy confessed he made the footprints.")
tiny
QUOTE(Orygun @ Apr 4 2004, 02:45 PM)
Just reading this article and not other pieces by the author do I find him skeptical but certainly not an idiot.

QUOTE
Admittedly, there are inconsistencies in Long's account. Heironimus remembers the suit being a three-piece affair, while the man who purportedly made it and supplied it, claims it had six pieces.


He's even pointing out issues in the book. And acknowledging internet critics to the book. Just because he doesn't outright trash the book doesn't mean anything.

IMHO, the writer is just looking at the evidence and has taken the time to at least look at both sides. Certainly with points for both sides still unresolved I don't think resorting to name calling is professional, more like immature. Just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs 100% doesn't mean that they are less intelligent than you.

An investigator should be open-minded, as soon as you limit your possibilities you limit your options.

You want to silence the critics? Get yourself a body. Despite the amount of secondary evidence until then the critics have every right to discuss their opinions.

He's not the brightest crayon in the box. new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
RogerKni
GL has a regular job. He's not dependent on his earnings from writing for his living. He does his researching as a hobby on weekends and evenings, I assume. And if GL were motivated by money he'd have done certain things differently. He wouldn't have engaged in writing a book that is 100 pages too long (according to a reviewer who posted here). That represented more overhead for the publisher (i.e., a lower cut for himslef), not to mention a lot of additional typing, and even a somewhat turned-off audience.

What motivated that excess must have been passion. And that passion was also apparent, according to RedWolf, in his emotional wrought-upness about Patterson when he spoke at the IBS meeting. If he were just doing this for cash, he wouldn't care. His passion is also evident in his withdrawing his book (presumably after it had gone to press) and issuing a new edition when he came across Philip Morris. That must have been an expensive step (unless Prometheus nobly agreed to absorb the cost) that might have cost him all his future royalties. If he just wanted money, he'd have suppressed that revised story--he had a good enough tale to make a scandal already. (I'm guessing about his motives here, as I was when I guessed that he's secretly a debunker. My guesses "make sense," but that's no guarantee that they aren't wrong.)

Scoftics are selfless. Randi and Klass et al. are getting a pittance for their debunking work. But people do bad things from selfless motives--Eric Hoffer made a career pointing that out. And there's a quotation somewhere in one of my dozens of quote dicitonaries that says something like, "It is the most melancholy of reflections that it is hard to determine whether more evil is done in the world by the bad or the good."
Orygun
QUOTE(tiny @ Apr 5 2004, 12:49 AM)
He's not the brightest crayon in the box.

Who isn't so bright? Long? Ingram? Me?
manzinn
I think Long's book is a bit LONG because he did not have a very good editor. It is also long because it is more journalistic in its approach than scientific.

In defense of the "book" Long does raise some interesting points...

see this topic: http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=4575

I do not think GL has proved that Bob H. wore the suit or that the film is a hoax.
believe22
The simple things that confound the wise:

"Just put Bob H. in the same suit, made with the same materials & film under the same outside conditions as in 1967."

Just think, this is all G. Long would have to do & save himself writing a 400+ page book.

Its just too simple folks, its just too simple............
New York Believer
This guy should have become a comedy writer for a sitcom instead of a "journalist".


"Goblin Universe", now just WTF does that mean??? huh.gif blink.gif


"He claims to have taped Heironimus, put that tape side-by-side with the Patterson film, and they matched"
**Cough, cough, bullsh*t, Cough** I'm sure he did. We all know what stand up guys Mr. Long and his pals are now don't we? :rolleyes:


"admittedly there are inconsistencies in Long's account"
ohmy.gif who would have thought!!!


"all these questions, however incidental to the story, will of course allow believers to soldier on"
Incidental my a$$, the questions left unanswered outwiegh the argument that the film is a fake in Mr. Long's "fairy tale"!!! icon_really_happy_guy.gif icon_really_happy_guy.gif icon_really_happy_guy.gif


"If you don't believe me check out the customer reviews at www.amazon.com"
Well at least we know the writer read some of the comments from our side. biggrin.gif


"In the end, that's what makes stories like this so fascinating. -- it's the people who still search for it. And you know, a little part of me goes with those people."
Exactly what little part would that be Mr. Ingram, that tiny, undeveloped thing you call a brain perhaps???


"I confess to disappointment that the whole Bigfoot saga seems to have come down to some guys wanting to make a lot of money from a gorilla suit. It's so unromantic.
Or some guys trying to make a lot of money selling a book about guys wanting to make a lot of money from a gorilla suit, but you wouldn't know anything about that now would you Mr. Ingram? new_whistle.gif


What a clueless moron!!! Just how low in the food chain have these "journalists" sunk?

Sorry if this post offends some people here, but I am angry. new_grrr.gif These types of "articles", if you can call them that, continue to written by "journalists" who don't have a F-ing clue what they are talking about and it's really starting to piss me off. It seems like every few days I read some bullsh*t article like this and it makes me sick. The "writers" of these "articles" obviously don't bother to check any facts or even examine any of the "evidence" that Mr. Long and others like him claim to have that will "prove" Bigfoot doesn't exist. I really can't take much more of this crap from these “journalists”. icon_bang.gif

They are constantly presenting a negative view on the subject of Bigfoot to the public and this has got to stop!!! We have to start a concentrated e-mail attack on the papers and news outlets that are running this one-sided crap, NOW!!!
New York Believer
By the way tarran, how do you post all those separate quotes in the one post like that? It would save me a lot of time from typing if I could figure out how to do that. And let me tell ya, it takes a long time to type this stuff when you're only using 2 fingers like I am. laugh.gif
HarryHenderson
QUOTE(believe22 @ Apr 5 2004, 02:58 PM)
The simple things that confound the wise:

"Just put Bob H. in the  same suit, made with the same materials & film under the same outside conditions as in 1967."

Just think, this is all G. Long would have to do & save himself writing a 400+ page book.

Its just too simple  folks, its just too simple............

thumbup.gif Amen brotha!

Excellent excellent point! Love that saying "The simple things that confound the wise." thumbup.gif

I am reluctant to admit that through all the hoopla on this board over 'the book', it never really gelled in my head that IF Greg Long was really and truly just 'seeking the truth', he'd not have written a book. He'd have MADE A FILM. It's been said probably 1,000 times on here that "he needs to do an exact re-creation for us to believe him" but I don't think it's really come up that HE DIDN'T NEED THE BOOK at all IF in fact he had such a filmed re-creation. It NOW seems to me that IF he was in possession of such a re-creation (intended initially as a by-product of the book or even done instead of the book) and it 'proved' it was all a hoax, then that '20 seconds of film' would be a FAR SUPERIOR method of 'going public' about the entire "Patterson Hoax". The book part would have been the corollary at best (and post film) and NOT the proof. Alas, there is no film or re-creation NOR will there be. Why haven't we here 'thought it suspect' that Greg Long DIDN'T go about this whole 'process' the same way science goes about doing research. The 'scientific method' (essentially) 'asks' for experimentation first THEN written proof of the results that were found AND if such results were 'worthy', such experiemntation has to be re-created by others any number of times for any true validity. That hasn't even come close to occuring in this matter.

In my opinion, now more than ever, Greg Long's motives are suspect to the point of being sinister. Notwithstanding Roger Kni's excellent posts of late on this subject, I think Greg Long has and/or had some sort of 'personal problem' with the 'players' (or possibly what the players represent) of the P/G film. Maybe he has a 'hatred' of all things 'anomalous' and this Roger Patterson personified that hatred. Maybe through the grapevine he had heard a few 'nasty things' said about Roger Patterson and figured what a perfect subject to 'roast'. Especially if he had no faith in the authenticity of the P/G film in the first place.

Anyway, I think it's an impossibility for us here to believe his motives were 'pure'. Nothing that has occured since the book's introduction has proven (or even hinted) that Greg Long is being honest and straight with the world. I could have missed it but if he's done ANYTHING to promote, or is that prove, himself as having any real integrity, I would surely love to read/see it. It's actually pretty sad (if not ironic) that the writer of a book on a 'supposed charlatan' has in fact shown himself to be one. dry.gif

"Harry"
New York Believer
Great post Harry!!! new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
RogerKni
Well, maybe he figures a little cash wouldn't hurt, so he's trying to structure things so that he'll get a large sum from a TV producer for his role in this affair. So I guess you could say he's compromised a bit, in that he doesn't want to "let it all hang out" just yet, given that he could maybe make more money by "teasing" the public a bit with a hint of more to come. But he's got a good rationalization--"So the public has to wait an extra year to see the film--big deal."

What I suspect is that the film he's made isn't very convincing, and he maybe realizes that. Presumably he and KK et al. have "shopped" his story and film to all the big media outlets, but they've "passed" on it. That suggests it doesn't look real, and/or that they don't like it that BH is maybe being compensated for his story.

It may be, when and if the film is released, that it looks preposterously unreal. If so, that would mainly indicate that GL is a "true (dis)believer" type who is so sure that anything anomalous must be phony that he wouldn't let the weaknesses in BH's re-enactment stand in his way. (Just as he hasn't let BH's contradictions deflect him.) If he was desperate to save the public from falling into erroroneous belief and converting them to his view of things, like other fanatical debunkers, he probably sincerely doesn't think that the poor quality of a reenactment should carry much weight. He may figure that it'll be good enough for the guys at CSICOP (Radford was wowed by the Greatest Hoaxes reenactment, remember), so if it isn't good enough for the public, they're just being picky. (And he's also probably talked himself into believing the reenactment isn't that bad.)

Back in 2003, when this affair was a cloud on the horizon, I suggested that interviewers ask GL if TV executives had "passed" on televising his book, and why. That would still be a good question.
tarran
I know one thing, whether Greg Wrong, oops!! I mean Long, wink.gif wrote the book to make money or because of a vendetta against Roger Patterson, He certainly did not write it because he was seeking the truth!! blink.gif :rolleyes: new_thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
RogerKni
Interviewers might also ask to be privately shown the film of BH walking. (Is he in a suit or not?)

Say, did anyone notice that the book's publication date (i.e., the date when stores were released to sell it) was April Fool's Day? Or so I infer from the fact that that was when the Amazon "Ships in" field changed from "1 to 2 months" to "1 to 3 days". (Although I still haven't received an email that my copy has shipped.)
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