Let's look at Bigfoot from an Economics perspective, the marketplace. In a free market system the market place determines the price of everything. Every price of something is always 'correct' at that moment in time. It is ineveitable that if Bigfoot exists he will end up in a zoo, like every other animal on earth, except perhaps the largest whales.
I conservatively estimate the capture of a Bigfoot to be worth over $145 Million in the first year alone. Take a zoo like the San Diego Zoo. An attraction such as the first Bigfoot would probably draw an EXTRA 1,000 adults per day, at least. who on the average would bring their wives, children etc. Let's round it of to say 3,000 people a day above what they normally get. At $32/adult and $20/child plus for an extra special attaction like Bigfoot I am sure you could get $20 per head just for the right to see Bigfoot. So one adult= $52, 2 children=$80 times 3,000 =$396,000/day times 365 days a year- $146 million! And that's not including concessions, like Bigfoot burgers, Bigfoot pennants, Bigfoot bobbleheads, etc. Although the initial attraction would eventually die down a captured Bigfoot would always be a huge draw for the zoo that has one, probably over $1 billion grosss for the life of the Bigfoot(if they can kep him alive in the zoo!)
If the evidence were convincing enough certainly either a zoo or an independent group of 'venture capitalists' would put together an operation to capture one. Oh I know that guy Swift did one 30 years ago but I mean a real military type one. I would think you could hire some ex-Special Forces, Army RAngers, Navy Seals etc to do the job. They are already trained so that expense is covered. I would think that for $2-4 million you could get highly trained people, buy their equipment(night vision, GPS, sensing devices, tranquilizer guns, communications, etc.) and put them out there for 3-4 months. If Bigfoot exists I would bet 20-25 Special Forces type guys would have one within weeks.
I am sure the zoos have thought all this through, they are way ahead of me. Since they haven't done this I therfore conclude by marketplace theory that Bigfoot does not exist.

Let's say that you run a zoo, and you do believe in the existence of Bigfoot. Do you actually come out and admit it? And just how do you propose to raise the money? Who is going to give you all this money for this expensive expedition? Are you really going to run the risk of exposing yourself and your reputation to extreme ridicule? What would the failure of such an expedition do to your career and reputation?

I think I might be satisfied to sit and wait for someone else to expose themselves to adverse publicity rather than put everything on the line for something that I'm not even sure that I could keep. And I'm not certain just how the public would tolerate such exploitation as you suggest.

Nobody wants to be the bad guy, or look like an idiot in the eyes of their peers.

I tend to agree with the gist of what RB is saying. Because it's bigfoot we're talking about (you know, the one you read about on the cover of supermarket tabloids meeting with the President and impregnating housewives), I would think that most people in a position to benefit from a bigfoot capture would not even float the idea of it in public.

On the other hand, there have been many serious efforts to capture/prove the existence of the Loch Ness Monster by governmental, academic, and commercial interests. I'd like to know why it's OK to stage large-scale efforts to find Nessie but it's not OK to make an effort to find bigfoot (in fact, it's not only not OK, but you're placing your reputation at serious risk by even proposing it). But that's a topic for another post...

On the other other hand, I think Lycurgus makes an excellent point about the potential profitability of actually capturing one alive. My guess is when their existence is proven to some venture capitalist's satisfaction that such an expedition will be formed in earnest.

You make a couple of excellent points there, bipto.

First, I agree with you both that there is much money to be made by the person that captures a Bigfoot alive. I suspect that there are probably several groups with the same notion, and that there may be such an effort underway as we speak. I can only imagine that such an endeavor would be kept a secret as long as possible to avoid any interference. Time will tell.

Secondly, I've been pondering what you said about Nessie. Why is it acceptable to search for the Loch Ness Monster, but not for Bigfoot? And what about the search for life from another planet? Perfectly acceptable in most circles. Our own government has been "listening" for radio signals from space since the 1970's. We have spent millions on such projects. Could it be that we humans are so arrogant that we think that we are the masters of our domain? We do not live in space, nor do we live in the water, so they are accepted to be full of possibilities. But since our domain is "dry land", we humans may find comfort in believing that we know everything there is to know about it and that we are the most superior species in most all ways to inhabit it. What would it do to not only our economy, but to our "peace of mind" if we were to find out that the human race had serious competition from a species that was able to elude us for so long? Competition for superior strength and ability to survive with little or no resources as we know them. Does the thought of a very large cat stalking you in the woods make you nervous? It sure does me. Suppose this creature had no fear of humans, had incredible size and strength, had the ability to "blend-in" to the background without much difficulty, possibly having the ability to think as we do AND had opposable thumbs? How comfortable would we all sleep at night? I wonder.

interesting discussion....about the economic value of a live sasquatch

opposable thumbs......got a little confused here....not the first time, of course.....are you suggesting opposable thumbs for our hairy friends?

don´t see them in the handprint casts(no thenar bulge) nor see them used by the animal in my 2nd sighting

Yeah, thumbs, that's what I was suggesting. jon, you mean you haven't seen any thumbs on any of the Bigfoot creatures you have seen?

Why wouldn't they have thumbs?

If they have no thumbs, how do they perform tasks like grasping sticks, trying to open car door handles and throwing rocks?

I believe that they do have thumbs. The question is whether or not those thumbs are opposable or not.

I watched an interesting documentary several years ago that dealt with chimpanzees. The main thrust of the documentary was comparing their thumbs to the thumbs of humans. The chimps had no problem using a hammer to hit nails (and walnuts) nor did they have any problem grasping practically anything they wanted to, but the one thing that is a physical impossibility for a chimpanzee is to correctly use a screwdriver. The reason for this is because in order to properly hold a screwdriver and make it function correctly, you must have opposable thumbs. Otherwise, there's no way that the screwdriver can be twisted properly.

So, does bigfoot possess opposable thumbs like humans or non-opposable thumbs like the rest of the apes? That's the question, IMHO.

from the casts..one....there is no thenar bulge seen....this bulge of muscle at the base of the human thumb allows us to grasp things between the thumb and any finger with precision......beyond that achievable by any chimp, gorilla or sasquatch........secondly.... the sasquatch thumb has a thumbnail which is on the same plane as the fingers, unlike the human thumb which has a thumbnail rotated approx. 80 degrees from the fingers.....so the sasquatch, for all practical purposes, has 5 fingers on each hand......hence, limited tool use...like chimps...............so,they don´t control fire, not building computers, etc.....which brings up diet.....eats rotting meat (read partially digested) because they don´t cook......which brings up sasquatch B.O.......which brings up...etc.

This is interesting, I hope you don't mind me picking your brain here, jon... Seriously now, I am curious to know how you know the plane angle of Bigfoot's thumbnail? Have you seen one close enough to tell for yourself? Was the thumb as long as the rest of the fingers? Have you seen one grip something?

What I'm getting at is Bigfoot more closely related to apes or humans? The non-opposable thumb would suggest a closer relation to apes.... right?

just typed out a great answer...got zapped when i pressed submit....oh well....shorter answer coming up......

from the casts.....the thumbnail is present and not rotated....typical ape pattern....not human.....no thenar bulge....typical ape pattern.....

the print was made when the sasquatch put its hand down in the dirt to help itself get up after digging.....i got the cast copy from grover krantz...who did the analysis....he said in his book that the fingers were shorter proportionatelly than the average humans when finger length is compared to the length of the rest of the hand....bear in mind that this is krantzs analysis of the cast compared to his own hand.....few would agree that krantz has average body proportions....he is approx. 6 ft 7...maybe at this time 260 lbs...much more narrow through the shoulders than i am....i'm 5ft 8...155 lbs...he says that my shoulder width to height doesn't exist except among short stocky people such as eskimos....but i digress......the cast analysis by krantz indicates that, at least with this animal, the proportions are not of the typical brachiator or semi-brachiator like orangs or chimps and are not typical of an ex-brachiator like humans(krantz as model) but are farther from apes than we are in this respect...although sasquatches are ex-brachitors, too.....

i saw thumbs not used when the saquatch pulled itself into the trees...it means nothing , of course..........merely the most efficient way to what it did................the casts are important to eventually understanding sasquatches......

Two totally off-topic points:

1) This is, like, my favorite thread on the whole site.

2) Jon, did you actually know Krantz? What was he like? If you did know him, I'd love to heard your impressions of him.

jon, thanks for the reply to my questions. Oh yeah, and thanks for making me pull out a dictionary! :wink:

Your answers are indeed very insightful and informative. Thanks for sharing. I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but I am so totally interested in this stuff and I really want to learn as much about them as I can.

Ok then, so I concede. What I get from all that is I think the guys don't have opposable thumbs after all. I guess I'm glad about that fact, I don't know for sure.... Should I be glad? Doesn't that fact make them further away from humans than apes are?

So if they're not apes and they're definitely not human....just who/what would be their closest cousins?

1) glad you enjoy this...i enjoy it too....

2) i met dr. krantz a month after my first sighting...1988...he was interesting, interested and generous to give me so much of his time....sometimes he confided things too easily...trusted others when he shouldn't have...not a practical man in many ways...got on tangents when logic failed him...and remained hard headed about his conclusions...sacreficed pay and promotions because of his belief in sasquatches..

3) more thoughts about bigfoots relationship to man and apes....they are an ape...not a failed human....bi-pedalism, a frequently used argument for placing them in our line...holds no water...Oreopithicus...was also bi-pedal although he was a 4 handed creature....most characteristics which we have discussed in the Bigfoot Forums are ape not human characteristics............don't get me wrong ....bigfoots are smart apes...but apes.........

i didn't quite answer your questions.....sorry...my post got zapped again so.......once again the one what appeared was my 2nd try after logging in again...a few ape characteristics of sasquatches:in no particular order....

1) no fully opposable thumb

2) hair covered body

3) build temp. nest like gorillas, ie. no semi-permanent home

4) no adult male in "family" unit

5) no control of fire

6) little use of tools

7) no clothing

8) no production or use of ornamentation--jewelry or
whatever and no art....culture

i'm sure that you can think of more .................

some folks have proposed a separate classification for sasquatches.....

"Super animal" ......in recognition of their intelligence and

bipedalism.....one can call them whatever...they're still

apes.........................rhetorically.. i have 2 oranges in my left hand and

2 apples in my right....if i call the apples oranges...how many oranges do i

have? yes..i know ....a dumb, cheap comment.....

and once science has a "type specimen"....a body...what i have just typed

out may be partially negated by the discovery .....say...of human

dentition....but i don't think so...........bi-pedalism doesn't make them

human or of our line.....intelligence doen't make them human or of our

line either.....chimps are pretty smart and have used and created words...

but nobodys that i know of suggests that they're of our line......yet,

someday concensus may be that they aren't ape, aren't human and

deserve to be classified as something else......time will tell.........

Thanks for your insightful reply, jon. I appreciate your sharing with us. It is obvious you have given this much thought. You have helped me to better understand what I had not before.

If I may, could I please pick at your brain just a bit more? When a body is discovered / recovered, what would be the best place / person to have examine it? To be honest with you, I would probably take it straight to the school of veterinary medicine at UC Davis. Do you think this would be prudent or a maybe a mistake?

RB, I know you did not ask me this...but I want to give my advice anyway...

The first thing I would do is to take all or part of the creature and hide it some place safe. I know that sounds pretty gross and yet there is good reason for this. You will need to be able to prove you were the one who found it originally and someone WILL try and steal it from you. The first person I would contact would be a trusted friend. Take many photos and then take it to a local trusted veterinarian. After establishing it is truly an amazing find and getting documented with video tape of your own, I would then bring in the media (lots of media) before going to any type of scientific, state or federal authorities.
I know this sounds paranoid, but I think it is the only way...I have heard some very strange stories of diappearing evidence and from some realiable sources. I just wouldn't take any chances if it were me.
Just some friendly advice....

Here's a better question. How would you move the thing? It could weigh as much as cow. Ever seen a cow? They're BIG.

Now, this might sound really gross, but would it make sense to, um, take as much with you as you could carry? Like maybe the head, hands and feet or something. Sorry, but even those things could be really heavy and hard to carry.

After rereading Arkansan's post, I guess she said the same thing but not quite so graphically.


I can just see me walking into my dog's vet and asking for an appointment for the bigfoot head I got here in this Hefty bag.

welllllll....fight time.....depending on the weather etc...you don't have a lot of time....retrieve everything you can...whole body best, of course,....you have to skin what ever you have within say 12 hours to prevent the hair from slipping and the possibility of a mount gone....then you need to cut everything into pieces small enough to handle and put in ice chests with dry ice...or a reefer...tie off organs and remove... save them... freeze or alcohol......take picture of everything... take measurements, .....do everything that you can do to save everything....what do you want out of this....you better figure out what you want, what you want later, what you'll give away to some university...dr. jeff meldrum would love to have the whole thing ,of course......don't be in a hurry about any decisions and keep your mouth shut.....until you've got it all figured out.......ella, sorry about the body plan.......

Personally, the thought of field dressing a bigfoot just weirds me out!

Actually I think they might be larger than a cow...although I have seen a few bulls that were HUGE!

All I can say is...where there's a will, there's a way! I do know that people hunt bear, some of those run pretty large, now how do they bring them back???? Maybe a good rope and a 4 wheeler? LOL
Uuughhh, that don't sound too pretty either! There are just a lot of things to think about before going out to find one if you are intent on actually bringing it back! :wink:
Personally, I am content on just filming one!



You crack me up bipto!!!
You aren't supposed to tell him what you have....let HIM figure it out without your words alerting him beforehand! That way he isn't "coaxed" into his decision. You are supposed to tell him you shot something in the woods and don't know what it is!!!! :wink:

Like has been said vis a vis collecting from the hypothetical Holy Grail of cryptozoology, hack off the biggest chunk you can possibly tote with you back to your vehicle, and then....and then....where to go from there? Your life is certainly on the cusp of great notoriety, whether or not notoriety is desired. I wouldn't know what the hell to do.

About Krantz encounters...true story...in my senior year in high school, we were to write an essay concerning what we wished as our eventual profession. Half of the essay was to be dedicated to a level headed, realistic job choice, the other a whatever-you-can-imagine sort of thing. For the latter, I chose cryptozoologist (average yearly salary: $000,000.00). We were also supposed to interview someone in both our realistic and fanciful job fields. I called Mr. Krantz when he was still at Washington U (or was it Oregon?), under the impression that he would be overjoyed at the prospect of a young, idealistic lad wanting to follow in his footsteps.

Boy, he was a real jerk. He told me he had a chicken in the oven (or something to that effect), and that I'd better hurry up. Needless to say, I was so flustered by this that I could barely go on, rattled off a clumsily stuttering quesiton or two, and was shut up with a suggestion to go "buy my new book, Big Footprints. Got to go (or something equally abrupt)." I'll never forget it for as long as I live.

Come to think of it, he probably fielded stupid questions and phone calls concerning sasquatch for years, so I, despite my sincere desire to learn, was nothing to let the chicken get room temperature over.

That's a great story, IR. Krantz just didn't look like a guy who was going to win any personality contests...

I can relate to this...but it was Smokey Crabtree of "Legend of Boggy Creek" fame that gave me the cold shoulder. I e-mailed him to ask him about any recent activity in his area and a few directions on what areas I could go look around in Fouke. I didn't ask anything too indept, just a couple of basic questions. I thought he would be really receptive given his supposed status with bigfoot research. Afterall, doesn't he travel around conventions sharing what he knows with others? Well not only was he not forthcoming with information, but he stated and I quote:

Then he gives me instructions on how to order his book!!!! I was just a wee bit taken aback and needless to say, I did NOT order one of his books.

I'm starting to think maybe ol' Smokey has encountered some of the "fringe" of the Bigfoot community and is since hesitant to speak with anyone...sometimes these old coots are smarter than we give them credit for....ponderous...hmmm.... :wink:

Here's what I dream of doing with one of a BF's body parts (head or foot). Place it in a bird cage mounted on a 6-foot-high stand. (Similar to what Tweety-Bird resides in, as seen in the Tweety & Sylvester cartoons.) Cover with the night-cloth that comes with the cage. Go to a university within driving range that employs an obnoxiously outspoken skeptical academic, during his office hours, and set the cage up outside his door. Remove the cloth, unfold a lawn chair nearby in the hall, take out your video camera, take aim, and prepare to shoot the most hilarious footage ever recorded.

I mentioned a while ago in another thread that I had worked out how little ole me would get an entire bigfoot carcass home. I think it was RB who replied that he would like to discuss just how I was going to do that. I had intended to diagram it and hadn't done it yet but now I have. I have a big red Astro Van and this is what I have envisioned. Of course I would have to be within ready distance of my van so this goes to my fantasy of luring one out into the open, shooting it with a tranquilizer, and hauling it out on top of my van. I know this is a dorky fantasy but there you go. Oh and I was gonna take it to the Woodland park zoo and say "you better help me get this thing in some type of a cage before it wakes up and terrorizes Seattle." If nothing else you guys can get a kick out of my little plan. I would cover it with a tarp of course so that people passing me on the highway wouldn't drive off the road.

Wow, Leeloo, the realism and detail of your diagram are astounding! It's like I'm really there!!

Except for 1)&2), the rest of the characteristics are behavioural, not physical.

What about their Non-ape/human characteristics like:
1) able to continuously walk upright.
2) big honker of a nose.
3) protuberant breasts.
4) no opposable big toe.

LeeLoo, I'm picturing Harry and The Hendersons here where the bigfoot wakes up and you find yourself driving down the road only to find a big face suddenly peering in your windshield.

So am I Arky. Especially with the picture Bipto has on here.

That's exactly what I thought about. When that big old hand and face hit the windshield...up side down! What a hoot.

Hey that was my first time using paintshop. Not bad huh? Yes my idea reminds me of Harry and the Hendersons. I don't know how well I could tie him up so if he did wake up he would maybe be immobile....maybe.

Don't let him rag on you, Leeloo. I think you made a real cute picture there.

Hey Bipto, where are your artworks, huh?

Thanks for bumping this thread up - I loved reading Mr. Larson's info about the hand casts and lack of opposable thumbs for the big guy - I hadn't even considered that.

One ape characteristic that I've read about lately is large canine teeth on the males- used against rivals to intimidate them during territorial displays and battles.

So does anybody know what kind of teeth sasquatch have? Small human-like canines or big scary ape-like fangs?

-Ray

welllll......krantz indicated to me and in his book..Big Footprints ...that sasquatches can be expected to have basically human-like dentition with canines only slightly longer...proportionately... than most of ours....however, I would expect to see some variation in this aspect of sasquatch anatomy as well as in many others.....recall that we humans are a highly variable species as are other higher primates........

Raven....glad you liked my comments.......

Just thought somebody might be interested in what I did to my truck some years back.......Leeloo?...bolted a square steel tube at the front of the box through the frame on both sides...hole in center of tube with a hook......a high-lift jack, come-along and some chain will load heavy bulky "items" into the back of my 4x4 pick-up......could save "crunching" the roof and breaking the windshield......

Hubby would laugh his butt off if installed a winch on my van. But you are right that would be far superior to my idea. Mine was just a little thing I thought up. I should go get some rope that can handle at least 1000 lbs. and the tarp.

I would laugh my butt off too !!! I mean, what would she be wearing ? Short skirt and high heels ???? ( i know you meant winch, just couldnt resist the smartazz comment hehehe)


Actually, your idea is great, but i think the rope, when subjected to the pressure, would be cut by the bumper or undercarriage (beneath the vehicle) ... so, my suggestion would be, tie off the rope behind the vehicle, place a couple logs on the hood to act as a ramp, and drive forward under the animal carcass. Or just start hunting with a backhoe .... hehehe

I wondered if I was spelling that right. I set myself up for that one. You are right Rob. I will have to make a revised diagram.

Response to Chronic---

a big hmmmmm.....your comments remind me of some things that richard leaky addressed in one of his books.....I'm not at home and can't recall the name of it at the moment....some of what you spoke of suggests the "something else" classification for sasquatches....the non-ape foot...for example......an adaptation needed for continual upright walking...i guess the question should be..at what point in the evolutionary development of sasquatches, humans and the great apes did this occur? Was it before the division...proposed by some....say 5.5 million years ago... between humans and the great apes?Back around 10 million years? To me, 10 million would mean "something else". The very short fingers could also support this argument....not human...not really great ape either.

Back to richard....

richard wrote about how my items #3 to 8..or similar....i think he talked about food sharing, language, tool use, "family" units, persistance hunting, use of fire and some others as interacting together in combinations to reinforce each other....those behaviors which we call human.....and to allow for other changes to occur ....a larger human brain, for example, could be viewed as both a causitive factor for ... and one result of these interactions .............i hope that this is clearer than mud....i'll find the book when i get back....

I don't believe that we can realistically call sasquatches anything close to human.

We can call them a hominid..by some definitions. We can call them a more general "ape". Or they may be "something else". Not my call....

When the scientists have a body to study....they'll decide....

Do you consider HomoErectus "close" to human?

Hey, I would like to install a wench in my Jeep...

not really close....but a lot closer.....Homo erectus made tools, used fire, used persistance hunting, lived in family units, etc.......and is of our Homo line....an ancestor.....

sasquatchis not Homo anything .........may be a hominid...but is not Homo......

If a Sasquatch and a human could produce a fertile offspring, wouldn't that necessitate he be in the Homo genus?

And, if that were true, wouldn't the best candidate for Sasquatch's classification be HomoErectus?


And, if that were true (yeah, I know, I'm out on a thin branch here), then wouldn't it also be logical that HomoSapiens are probably the result of 2 seperate HomoErectus species mating and creating a hybrid....us?


Geography wise, HomoErectus and Sasquatch are both spread throughout the world, unlike any other hominid. That is what always sticks in my mind, quite a coincidence.

I don't think all the sightings of sasquatch around the world are necessarily of the same species - the skunk ape seems more ape-like than bigfoot for example.

Plus, there's no evidence that sas and humans can breed sucessfully.

...and, H. erectus was nothing like the big hairy guys walking through our woods today.

-Ray

Um...what Ray said!

No I don't think BF is homo erectus. I base this on the excellent book by Alan Walker: Widsom of the Bones. This book is the story of the detailed analysis of the most complete of the homo erectus skeletons found to date. It draws excellent conclusions about Homo erectus useing the modern scientific tools available to today's anthropologist. It also has great insight into what defines us human beings. The section on proto and true language is eye opening and I think, has information that the student of BF might find useful. Highly recommend it.
Jan

Point 1 kind of goes with my theory of multiple species of HomoErectus.
Point 2, yep, got me there, but there are stories.......
Point 3, yep, there are no 9 foot HomoErectus skeletons, but at the same time that doesn't disclude Sasquatch from being HomoErectus because the 9 footers could simply be a recent adaptation who is more successful in breeding. (there's a 50% difference in height of the Tutsi and Watwa tribes in Africa, same species-huge height difference)
Also, HomoErectus did have the first external nose with downward facing nostrils.......just like Sasquatch.

What makes you believe that, Ray?

All the witness data that I've gathered indicates that they're the same as their PNW cousins.