Hello Everyone,

It has been a year and a hlaf now since I moved to the intermountain west. I love it here. Ski all winter, hike in the summer and see rich-snotty-hotties waltzing their way around Jackson Hole.

The area around here (Eastern Idaho) is not crowded, but the people who are here get around. Cross-Country Skiing, snow-machining, snow shoeing, etc. The trails criss-cross from Southern Montana to Northern Utah.

For the last few days I have been thinking about tracks in the snow. Now, I understand that Rene Dahinden tracked a Bigfoot for several miles through the snow. But, I have been considering why more tracks aren't found. We have had sightings in this area, on and off for years. Some seem to be the real deal, others-like the guy in the gorilla suit I told you all about- obviously aren't.

So, the hibernation theory might explain why, in some areas, there aren't tracks seen in the snow during the winter. Although speculation, it is possible (I know the arguments made by some that primates don't hibernate.) that the Big Furry One is napping from the first snow fall to the spring runoff?

Just a thought.

Jon

I'm not sure if any primates hibernate.

If anything I'd guess that most creatures do conserve energy during the winter so reduced mobility is most likely (thus less track during the winter).

they could hibernate...they could be like the bear sleep for the most part and then when hungry go out and eat (kodiak brown bears dont hibernate all winter (males) some do some dont) then ocme back and sleep. might explain why there is so few winter sighting and tracks etc.
but then again nthey could not hibernate at all and just go south for the winter then come back both are possiblities

I asked Meldrum about this at the symposium. He said that no known primates hibernate, but that the gene is present in primates and that there are many more extinct primates then there are living examples. While he didn't endorse the idea of hibernation outright, the message was that's it's possible and we shouldn't rule it out simply based on current primate populations.

My wife and I "hunker" in the winter. Because of our lifestyle, we are very busy and travelling across the USA for about 8 months. Then around December, we find a place to hole up and do so for a couple of months. We 'hunker.' And we do it well. We 'hunkerdown' to conserve our energy, which translated, means money. I have tried to go outside after 7-8 days of hunkering and found my doors frozen shut. I had to crawl out a window to chop the ice off. In February our swap meet circuit starts up full blast and off we go again.

Now I only bring this up because I, too, am a primate and don't hibernate, but do 'hunker'. Maybe we need to add a new term to our BF dictionary...hunkering...and discard hibernation. Maybe that is all it is. Big Foot 'hunkers' to conserve energy and that is why his/her winter sign is so sparse.

There isn't much about this species we can rule out with absolute certainty. But I would be skeptical of true hibernation. As has been pointed out, it doesn't fit the primate mold, and that is where we need to look for clues. But the question of what biological and behavorial adaptations permit this species to survive in northerly climates is certainly an interesting one. Heat losses occur at the body's external surfaces, so the higher the mass to surface area ratio, the more heat conservative an organism will be. One would expect that this species has a high ratio as compared to a human. Hair and fur provide thermal insulation by trapping dead air against the body. Sasquatch certainly benefits from some thermoregulation from its hair--how much, I can't quantify. Is it possible that there is a seasonal hair growth pattern? Fat not only serves as an energy reservoir but also as insulation. I would expect that like many species in temperate climates, sasquatch bulks up during the period of late Summer and early Fall abundance.

I am certain that whatever insulation this creature has, it will not approach the near perfect insulation of the polar bear. There will be significant heat losses in very low temperatures. One way to reduce those losses is, as Mick expresses it, to "hunker down" in a less extreme environment. Caves can provide such an environment, with a significantly warmer temperature than that outside and no wind. Snow is a good insulator. A "bent tree" shelter of the type frequently described, when covered with a few inches of snow, would significantly reduce heat loss stress.

What is the normal core body temperature of this species? I would be surprised if it varies by more than a few degrees from the human 98.6 F, which is close to the optimal temperature for the chemical reactions necessary to metabolism. Unless this creature hibernates, or at least is able to enter a torpid state, it will have significant Winter caloric needs. This creature is going to have to be out and about meeting those needs at least some of the time.

Neopithecus americanus certainly presents some interesting questions, doesn't it?

-Vern

I think Vern's cave theory is a good one espacially if these's caves run down to beelow (in depht) the freezing point(about 4 feet) and the storing of meat like deer , elk, moose or black bear or whatever is acceptable(4degrees f) wich is probably why we hear of sighting's of them running off with big game animals...but maybe they have antibody mechanism's wich we dont have and can make them consume decaying meat all-yearound?
It would be fun to know which time of year these meat stealing sighting's occur...from what ive seen the late fall hunting season seem's like the most likely one?
Just my two cents worth.

Maybe they migrate to lower elevations, or head further south? If not, the cave theory with hunkering down sounds plausible vs. hibernating as we think of it in the purest sense. Relaxing/ staying immobile as much as possible, only venture out when fat reserves get really low.

This is, I believe, the "great" question about these things...
What DO they do in winter!
I mean real, northern, kill ya if you ain't prepared, winter.
Contrary to what alot of folks think...in many areas with REAL winters there are a lot of folks out and about in the snow..and yet, the incidents of track finds(which would seem to be more likely in winter), are almost nil.
I suspect that if we can figure this out...what it is they do once the world turns to ice...then we may have the anwer to all of our questions(or, at least, the big one...).
It is almost certain that they are extraordinarly restricted in movement....otherwise, ocasionaly, tracks would be found.
I bounce back and fourth among a half dozen or so ideas as to why this is not the case..everything from they migrate, to they just don't exist afterall(yet...unscientific as it is..I just KNOW this is not the case..).
So...given that not much else is happening at the moment in the squatchin' world, this seems to be a good thing to discuss....

Nw, aside from the fact that I don't think seasonal migration fits the right model, I am also bothered by the whole question of where the migration corridors would be. I think the problem is especially obvious with Michigan. Where are the logical routes through northern Ohio and Indiana? Am I missing something?

It would be interesting to see if there is any seasonality associated with the southern reports. If they are biased in favor of winter, it would make the migration idea more plausible.

-Vern

I wouldn't be influence by the fact that no known primates hibernate. The known primates all live in tropical areas. If they lived in a wintering area they probably would hibernate. I think it might be instinctual when faced with cold weather. The nests that are found and attributed to Sas might well be wintering nests. If like Meldrum said they have the gene for it maybe it wakes up in them when faced with the cold conditions. I don't see how they could do anything else in places like Alaska. And like Msfitguy said even humans slow down in winter and don't go out as much. I know I do.

I agree Vern, the migratory corridor issue is one that doesn't work well for Minnesota either (although I'm not convinced of any resident population here) ..... Iowa to the south, Dakotas to the west.
Wisconsin is to the east but I see problems for southern migration through Wisconsin....................

........Illinois toll booths (Where the hell would they keep the spare change? )

Well, I share your skepticism about their cash resources, BD. Maybe they avoid the problem by taking I-74/I-57?

Not all primates, Lee. Japanese macaques live in a fairly harsh montane environment, with average winter temperatures well below freezing. They are active year round.

-Vern

what about "the snow walker" footage... HA HA HA!

My latin is pretty rusty, but I can use search engines.

non nobis solum nati sumus

Translation: We are not born for ourselves alone.

Cicero I believe....

Quatchwatcher, did you go to Wilammette University?

I Happen to believe that they migrate with in our state in Michigan.They might migrate In a pattern within fifty or so miles.But am not sure about this.The question I have is where they came from.did they travel in from the south or did they travel from the nw.Was there travel due to family members kicking them out and having them find thier own terratory to reproduce.Another question I have there must be a few different families rather then them having inbreeding.There also must be several different species rather then just one type of SAS.Who knows because each state is different in climate and terrain.This is just my opionion.
Mark A

Hunker ... i like that word

Well, i dont buy into the migration or hibernation theories, i do think they Hunker down when it snows.
Several winter sightings involve more than one animal, which lends credence (to me anyway) of the old indian legend that says they band together in winter. Makes perfect sense. Group hunting and gathering, to ensure the group survival, more hunting sucess than an individual.
I think they stash meat for the snowfalls, and feed on that until it melts off. Or, they find the furthest spot from human snow-time activities (chainsaws and snowmobiles) and hole up there, in comfortable silence. Perhaps they sleep more, and conserve energy, but i really doubt they hibernate.
Keep in mind too, even in the summer, they prefer terrain thats not the best for human activity, steep hills and bluffs, thick vegetation and saplings, even in winter, these arent the best areas for skiing, snowmobiling or building snowmen.

Snow, stays a constant temp of about 30-32 degrees F. Snow caves or lean too type shelters when snow covered, remain close to freezing, and seldom go below 20 deg F. The weak (heat loss) points on a human or humanoid body are, head, hands and feet. You can quickly go into a hypothermic state if your feet are wet and cold, (not to mention frostbite) even if your bundled up looking like the Michlin man. So , maybe its the same for our barefooted friends. Perhaps the lack of snow tracks is they dont like cold wet feet !!!

Jan is correct about surface to mass and heat loss. Sasquatchs are built thick, much mass. So the heat loss would not be a significant factor. It could also mean their caloric intake needs in the winter, while hunkering, are much lower than in the summer when they may be breeding or reestablishing territory. I think thier hair doesnt go thru a seasonal shed, or we'd find much more hair than we do. Good God, think of the hair mats around spring and fall !! (anyone with a dog or cat can attest to this )

*edit - rambling thoughts, posted as they invaded mah head, not much thought on posting structure .. deal with it )

I like hunker you like hunker lets hunker !!

As a victim of cold weather and having been longer than I care to remember, I know this : Not every day in Jan Feb Dec or Nov is freezing. Not every day is 60 below windchill. Sure there are weeks at a time when it is almost that cold. But bunnies survive. Hey, squirrels too. So you would think there are ways for animals of large size to survive. Now what those mechanisms are, who knows.

As far as how people take care of the cold weather I guess a sas may be similar...from the standpoint of shelter and mobility. if a region is close that is better to survive in, say the altitude change promotes less snow and cold, then moving to a different location makes sense. In the northern states I dont know what's up and there are reports of tracks in snow. Seems cover use is logical and then being active on warmer days. But where and when is anyone's guess. Regarding hibernation, I would suspect more so like a bear than actual hibernation where the metabolic rate goes down but maybe that's what is up. Who knows. I would agree that the activity level seems less during winter. Might be they concentrate in places where there is less observation which minimizes us knowing exactly what they are doing. ?? Checkers ??

Rob,

I like this point. Got me thinking about studies I'd seen about Neanderthals. Neanderthals were massively built to withstand the rigors of the colder nothern European climates where many of them were found during the ice ages. Seems to me that a hair covered version of this would function even better in cold climates so migration from the cold would not be that big an issue

WIS.

I'm throwing this out to those that discount the migratory Sasquatch theory...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most large game animals (the possible prey) tend to move where the food is more plentiful during the colder months? Maybe not so much migrate in the purist sense like most birds do (thousands of miles south), but more like just going to locations where food can still be found in more plentiful reserves…A few hundred miles maybe, if that far.

This brings up two problems if they don't migrate. Reports have told us that the sas's are omnivorous. This would mean that if they stuck around through some of the colder climate areas all year round, they'd most likely go without both (meat and plant material) for good stretches at a time. Plants die, and some game animals really do hibernate, the rest make themselves scarce. If they still decide to stay, despite the lack of both foods being found abundantly, one would think they'd probably venture closer to human populations to steal scraps from waste dumps, trash cans or become more prone to kill livestock, pets and things of that nature. HOWEVER, there are, from what I've read, very few reports of sas during the winter months. Another poster raised this question on another thread, questioning why the lack of foot prints found in the snow. Maybe this is why, they've left the building by then.

Let's say these things did stay in their normal territory throughout the winter. Wouldn't this possibly lead more instances of starvation during the more harsh winters, just as we see with Elk, Deer, Bison, and many other prey and predators alike that stick around too long (thus the hire probability of finding a dead sas, or a half starved sas, less worried about concealment/safety, and more worried about sustenance...once again, raising the probability of detection, or finding some bones)? Maybe this lends more weight to the hibernation theory, but I'm not totally sold on that one yet either. Somebody help me.

For those concerned about the lack of perceived migratory routes, how does the local game population move from one grazing area to the next during winter...mostly without detection BTW? I'm sure it'd be easy for the sas to use the same routes at night maybe…just a guess. As far as going from a heavily forested regions, to a less forested areas, give me a little time to work on that one...as we all agree, nothing's a sure thing with this subject (the sas's). I just don’t think it’s that cut-n-dry on whether they do or don’t (migrate vs hibernate). I do think the possibility of them not migrating raises just as many questions from where I’m sittin’.

Alright, enough ramblin', what do ya think?

I think Vern is right on regarding hibernation. Regarding moving into caves, that is a pretty common theme in Indian (native american) legends. Sleeping in caves makes alot of sense for an nocturnal animal that seems to really put a lot of effort at staying hidden and undetected not to mention keeping warm. It seems to me that bigfoot are sometimes very shy about leaving footprints, and I wonder if for that reason alone, they might not walk around much in the winter. I suspect that those living in the Bluff Creek area, for example, may move toward the ocean in the winter where the weather is less extreme and utilize the mountain environment in the summer when it is far more hospitable. I think I may have found some footprints above Bluff Creek many years ago in June but they were too melted to be sure of anything except that they appeared to be two legged with extremely long strides. The snow and footprints ran out before very far. I remember Dr. Krants referring to "cripple foot" leaving several sets of tracks in snow all of which ended up leading into Lake Rooservelt. I wonder if it sleeps like a manatee; underwater? Pretty unlikely I suppose but at least the water never gets below freeezing. I am curious what Dr. Meldrum is refering to regarding the "hibernation" gene. I don't think tree shrews hibernated nor any of their descendents. I think if the environment favored hibernation, it would develop in time. I am skeptical that there needs to be the reaquiring of a previous genetic characteristic for hibernation to take place though obviously I don't know that is what Dr. Meldrum meant.

TO "Judaculla":

Yes indeed...

I did graduate from Willamette University with a BS in Biology with an emphasis in Pre-Med and Anatomy.

Anyone else out there from the Willamette Valley that would like to "partner up" and go do some good ol' fashioned researching?!?!

In retrospect, I believe that the "direct" translation is...

"Not unto ourselves are we born".

A very good concept that I try to remember every damn day.

I agree with this, when I find myself fortunate enough to be in the tropics I need much less sleep. The intensity of the sun reduces melatonin release.

However, during the winter, all I want to do is lay in my recliner in front of the pellet stove and do nothing. I cut my weightlifting back to 1 day a week. During the summer I am much more active.

Jon

Hibernation theories are incompatible with observable primate behavior so I find that explanation unlikely.
I want to think about this idea of BF banding together in the winter to insure group survival. It makes sense and is not something that I had considered previously. Group hunting and stashing of group food is sophisicated behavior. Good notion Rob! .
It makes sense also that BF would be in the most remote areas of their "home range" when they hole up with their families or clans for winter and that could explain the scarcity of sightings and foot prints in the winter.
I do believe that BF is population is much, much smaller than the number of reported sightings would suggest and that most of the real sightings happen at the extreme edge of their ranges.
We really know nothing of BF social structure but that it could be absolutely fundamental to their winter survival should be considered very seriously.
Hmmmm.
Jan

ya know i was going to say that but you did first so ill agree with you..makes sense huh?

Here’s something that indicates that humans are able to stand colder temperatures than one would think. And if Bigfoot’s hair provides enough warmth, then maybe he could survive a harsh winter. (Or … shhh … if he’s learnt how to make a fire.)

The Carl D. Bradley, then one of the bigger ore carriers on the Great lakes, went to the bottom of Lake Michigan up near the Fox Islands in a screaming full gale storm back in November, 1958. The hull had undetected stress cracking and the boat literally split in half amidships. Only three of the 30-odd crewman were able to scramble aboard a life raft after the captain gave the order to abandon ship. The Coast Guard was unable to find any indication of survivors during an unbelievable night of sleet, 60 knot winds and mountainous seas which flipped the raft over numerous times. A Coast Guard flyover finally located the raft after first light the next day. Two of the three crewmen had died during the night. The sole survivor made it through the night wearing only jockey shorts and a pair of shoes. He had been asleep in his berth when the ship broke up and only stopped long enough to slip on a pair of shoes. What saved him (aside from wedging himself under the body of one of his dead shipmates to conserve body heat) was the fact that he weighed 300+ pounds. Never underestimate the value of body fat.