This is just something I’ve been feeling recently and I was curious as to whether others feel the same way. With the departure of some of our best members over the last few months, I suspect that others do too, but I don't know if the issue has been brought out into the open.

Anyway, I got interested in the Sasquatch almost a year ago, which is certainly not a long time compared to other veterans of the field, but I’m already starting to feel a bit jaded about the state of Sasquatch research, or at least that of it which is visible to me on the internet.

It almost seems that an open online discussion of Sasquatch research is pointless. New news comes so very rarely that there is often little to do other than chew over old issues that are essentially unsolvable due to lack of information, or to try to answer the same basic questions from new users over and over (though the latter will be helped by bipto's BIP, no doubt).

Reporting on actual ongoing (or even past) research is bad news, because it's impossible to prove that you aren't making everything up, and there will always be someone with a chip on their shoulder who will derail the discussion trying to debunk every statement the claimed-researcher makes. It makes intelligent discussion almost impossible, and generally drives serious researchers away or, at least, makes them unwilling to share anything. Witness eastTexSteve's badgering Rick Noll off the boards. I'm sure if any other good researcher were to come forward with as much information and openness as Rick did, the same thing would happen in short order. Kathy Moskowitz and the bark ball was another example, though that research was not meant to go public anyway, so that's a bit different. But the atmosphere in that thread was symptomatic of the problem.

I am starting to feel that the atmosphere in the online BF community is self-destructive. Everyone wants to believe, but at the same time we are so paranoid about hoaxes and romantic pseudo-research that all new evidence or reports on field research are absolutely torn to shreds, and the researchers who share their information are pelted by rotten eggs and tomatoes until they run and hide. Of course, not everyone throws the eggs, but if you’re being pelted with rotten eggs it doesn’t make much difference to you that only 20% of the crowd is throwing them! And sometimes, the more detailed (and interesting) the information, the harder the eggs get thrown. It’s does sometimes seem like an unsolvable problem. We don’t want to become a breeding ground for romantic ‘fantasy research’, and yet there is no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that _anybody’s_ research is beyond reproach.

It’s a hard balance to find, certainly, and especially when it’s up to the individual members of an open forum, and not something that can really be mandated by the mods and bipto, unless they want to drastically change the nature of the boards, go for a heavily moderated and somewhat ‘closed’ paradigm.
If someone had asked me a year ago whether Bigfoot discussion boards should be totally open, like the BFF, or closed and highly moderated, I wouldn’t have blinked before answering that they should be open. But I now see the reason behind the other kind of board. Of course, such a ‘totalitarian’ discussion board model is ripe for abuse by bad moderators, and there are plenty of examples of this that I hardly need mention.

And yet I am starting to think that a well moderated closed board is a good thing, as long as the moderation is good. Sasquatch research is a contentious topic, and some firm moderation is necessary to keep a discussion on track and productive. Essentially, I think that an enlightened despot is sometimes better than a laissez-faire government in certain situations, and this may be one of them.

I’m not really asking anybody to change what they’re doing, but rather, I’m just saying what I feel about the current situation as I see it.

A possible solution that does come to mind would be an area of the forum designated to trusted individuals only, where heckling would be much more strictly dealt with, and every effort would be made to give researchers the benefit of the doubt, but only after they had earned the trust of the mods and admins and perhaps more senior forum members, and had been invited to the ‘trusted’ area.

Of course, this could be abused as well, and it would no doubt cause howls of partisanship and secrecy from many (I would have been among the howlers a few months ago too). And there is no doubt that trusted individuals can lie and pull a fast one But at the same time, I think such an area of the forum could bring back a lot of serious researchers and encourage them to be more open. They would benefit by being able to discuss and share information, and get intelligent feedback, and serious armchair researchers like many of us here would benefit by being able to be closer to the ‘cutting edge’ of Sasquatch research, and perhaps even contribute some brainpower or relevant knowledge.

Such a ‘trusted forum’ could be seen as a logical extension of the current new member restrictions. General Discussion, etc. would be left open for everyone, and getting invited to the trusted area would also be a carrot to dangle before new members to encourage responsible and intelligent behavior, which might actually have the effect of raising the level of discussion in the other areas of the forum.



Anyway, sorry for being a bit rambly, but that’s how I’ve been feeling about this all lately, and I figured that I shouldn’t just complain about something without trying to propose a solution


-robo

Bingo! There is much merit to your observations in several different directions. I will only offer one thought in response to your dilema. There are some serious, thoughtful people doing intelligent work in this field. You can certainly pick some of them out from prior posts on this board. They may not choose to subject themselves to public harassment here or anywhere else. But if you persuade them that you are also serious and thoughtful, and that you won't "jump their claim" or bad mouth them in public, I think you will find that some of them are generous in sharing their data and information privately.

-Vern

You're right, and i have corresponded with a few people in this way, but I think that a forum environment is a rather different (and potentially more fruitful) form of information sharing.


-robo

Robo, you expressed my feelings much better than I have been able to. thumbs up to you on expressing this so well.

But what will happen to jealous troublemakers like me?

Actually there are a lot of folks here who have good info, but you really have to get to know them first. People have personally confided with me about stuff they may have, and I promised to keep it quiet. I don’t blame them for keeping it low profile. If I had something, I would only share it with about 5 people here, if it were kind of iffy. If I felt like it I would bring it up here publicly. I had better be prepared to challenge myself and be open to the possibilities that my conclusions may be wrong. I should also be open to having whatever I present to be picked to DEATH until a conclusion is reached. If I trust the folks critiquing they or me make a sound argument against what I have, I will have to change my own conclusion.

If my claims or research were not picked apart, I would instantly lose respect for all those involved. If I get picked apart because of my being a member or not being a member of an org, then I will have to take that angle of attack into consideration.

I had better be able to be proven wrong in the face of many and be able to swallow my pride without a scuffle or hissy fit. Being proven wrong isn’t all that much of a bad thing really. Imagine being wrong all the time and no one telling you. How would that be beneficial?

I think you have good intentions there Robo. But I don’t think it would work.

I stopped reading after the second paragraph,( by saying you I'm referring to anyone who may be frusterated)I think the brass tacks of the matter is when you're dealing with something as enigmatic as squatch on a forum, all you can do is rehash the same "chewed" up topics hopefully a new member will join and bring fresh life or a different angle with an experience to back up their theories. all you can do is keep you're sense of humor, an open mind and stay true to what you believe.
If someone wants to believe that BF have horns cus they seen em! then let them post, others will flame, some will follow suit and truley believe that they must have horns since someone said so.... you can believe what you want since all anyone can do is conject, speculate, hypothesize and theorize
Best side of these boards is good people frequent this pub, its a great place to use what info you have collected and bounce it off others who are also out doing what they feel is research
keep the faith
a sense of humor is the best medicine for forum hangovers

I agree with Fishbone on this.

This board will be active for 2 years as of Saturday, coming up! A forum operating for 365 days a year 24 hours a day. I should think that all general knowledge about Bf has been pretty well 'chewed up' by now.
That is a hell of a long time to talk about something which has not even been proven to exist..cept for those who have seen one. Sooner of later, one has to be rendered temporarily speechless.
Frustration can rear its ugly head at this time. And people wonder if there is any more to say, which is new and exciting?
Probably not. We are debating and digesting events only moments after they happen. The internet makes it too easy to retrieve material, which adds to the problem. BF will always be a very finite experience until a body shows up, or one is captured live.There is just not enough ground breaking news to turn BFF into CNN!
In the meanwhile..the place is very addicive. And people want to have company on their vigil !

Experience has shown that a 'trusted' area of the forum will only cause mistrust and resentment across the board as a whole.

Bad idea.

With a few exceptions, forum members are fairly anonymous, and many like it that way. The downside is that you get all sorts.

We even had a forum member that attempted to perpertrate a hoaxed recording some time back !

Legitimacy of Bigfoot research is very controversial, and while there's attempts to earn credability by using the scientific method, some of the most startling truths in science began with intuition. Biographies of some famous scientisits have revealed that theories were born sometimes from a dream that a scientist had ,that at the time was considered implausable in reality. The shortcomings of online BF discussions are mentioned well in the opening post, and also include the developement of social constructs that are silopsistic and zenophobic "communities". While overtures can be made for "open" discussion, it can be very disheartening to find later comments in the discussion threads, that aren't even disguised as "critiques", but more blatant as arrogant "expertness". I think questioning of data should be expected; brainstorming and intuition though is also a part of the research process. I don't feel that "enlightened despotism" is particularly healthy, as potential for abuses and "arrogant expertness", is too likely.
Thanks for starting this thread-its well needed.

Robo, as you know me and some others have been crying out for a more polite and constructive environment here. I have pretty much given up and have resorted to damage control. We shouldn't have to have heavier moderating to try to get people to use good manners and common decency. That is a liberal way of thinking. Its playing to the lowest common denominator and the ones who are decent and have good manners have to be heavily moderated because of a bunch of boobs. Freedom is the most important factor in sharing information. These hecklers are having the "effect" of heavy moderating already in that they are restricting the free flow of information and making the atmosphere in here hostile to new ideas. So we have an issue for sure but I don't see a way around it except go behind them and do some damage control and just ignore them. I totally see your point but in my opinion there is no such thing as an enlightened despot.

Very well said Paul.

Seems like the safest option one who has a problem like those mentioned in the first post, would be to open their own forum and send out the invitations.

Right on there. I think the only way Robos plan would work is if it were an entirely separate forum with a diffent name and so on and so on. There are many underground boards out there, and thats a good thing in some cases.

Hmm.. I thought that the situation was that there was a private forum only open to members of a specific research group, which led to resentment. Though i agree with you somewhat.



Egads!

As you know I haven't been on this board for very long, but if you don't mind, I'd like to add a few cents worth here. Personally I like the aspect of it being an open board, especially since those that are true die-hard skeptics are not having every post they make taken off the board. I think this attitude is healthy, both for the believers, and the skeptics. It gives everyone an opportunity to discuss things head-to-head, not simply based on heresay, or published material in which a similar debate could take months or years. It gives the skeptics the chance to pick apart posts they don't agree with, and gives us a chance to provide instant feed-back and rebuttles to their questions and claims. At the end of the debate, neiher of us may have swayed the other any closer to their personal belief, but we do gain a new appreciation and respect for the others position.

As far as referring to someone as a so-called researcher, we are ALL so-called researchers, not one of us has a diploma on their wall that has our name in fancy print with the letters CBR (Certified Bigfoot Researcher) after it. Some of us might see a movie, or TV Special, or hear a talk show and suddenly want to become involved. Some will last days, some weeks, some their entire lives, it just depends how long it takes them to get frustrated. On a personal note, I've been learning about Bigfoot since the 60's. If it hasn't been while actively exploring and doing my own research, it's reading about the activities and research notes of others. WAY BACK THEN, we didn't have camcorders, or digital cameras, or thermal imaging equipment, or even night vision. We had a pad of paper, a pencil, a brownie box camera, and maybe a pair of binoculars. We really didn't have much of a clue to even know where to look, outside of in the woods. Bigfoot research has come a long way since then, and every day more and more bits of the puzzle are falling into place. The people responsible for providing those pieces are not always Degreed Scientists, but common every day people like you, or me, or the guy or girl who may join tomorrow, simply going out and looking.

There will be incidences where someone will post and make grandiose claims of findings, or techiniques that they use giving better than average results. It's up to us, to distinquish what is true and what isn't. Since there isn't any centralized self-governing body that makes the decision of who and who can not claim to be a researcher, we have to be self regulating by not passing along information we know to be false, and not promoting the findings of those who habitually make such claims.

I welcome the chance to talk to all newbies, to help steer them in the proper direction so when they go into the field, the data they return with will be more trustworthy and a valuable asset to us all. Even if one newbie came onto this board, and learned just enough to make sure one sample they garnered on one outing was unadulterated, and unquestionably a good sample, it would be worth it, even if that was the last time they ever went into the field and lost interest in Bigfoot the very next day. It would put us one step closer to solving the puzzle we are all working on, our Holy Grail, the verification that bigfoot exists.

Moregon, did I ever give you a proper welcome to the BFF?
Glad to have you here!!!

(very well said I might add )

Nice post moregon. You're almost making me change my mind

But what do you think of incidents like the Bark Ball thread, or ETS heckling DDA over the Skookum cast in the BFRO expedition thread?

moregon, you da man.

Welcome to the board moregon!

I take it from your name that you are not from Utah?

I have only been reading this forum from around the middle of last year and I was
really thrilled to see the level of discussion here. It was very refreshing. I do get tweaked by the "I was ignored or demeaned by an arrogant scientist/researcher type so I am going to confront them aggressively every chance I get" attitude that pops up every once in a while but...really I think that the majority here have great common sense and are able to see that kind of thing for what it is.

I really believe that in order to solve this mystery we need help from people all over, all age groups and all beliefs. But I do want these people to have a modecum of intelligence over the rampant hair brained ravings of certain individuals. I have to say....I want quality stuff from quality people because that is what I give. I will not state something without facts to back it up...and I will not post a photo that I couldn't identify what was in it. I have an incredible appetite for information about all kinds of things and BF is one of those things. I come here to find out what people know. I do sense also that there is an "in" crowd and to be in that crowd you have to know what you are talking about. I respect the ideas of scholars and laymen alike. It all is about focusing on the same point. We all want to know the truth.

I think if people could put there personal issues aside and look at information objectively...that would certainly help. As a wildlife photographer...I would really someday like to photograph this animal in such a way that leaves no doubt as to what it is. No blurry blobs from me. If you tell me where they are....and I go there and see one...I will get a picture of it....a good sharp well lit picture at that.

I love all the conjecture and hypothesis....but right now, that is all it is....we don't know or aren't sure....and if we crucify anyone who's opinion is different than ours then we won't have anyone left to argue with. We will be talking to the air like the guy I see walking down the street in my neighborhood sometimes, pointing and yelling at no one.

I think that if people remember what is said in the intro to this board..."treat people like they are directly in front of you"....act like this is someone you have to deal with every day....you don't have to embrace their ideas or even be their friend....but just have some respect for individuals...if you don't like what someone says....don't talk to them...if you think they are wrong...ask them to supply facts for their argument....but watch the knee jerk reactions.....

I think this board exists to help us learn...about BF and each other. I am not a big huggy touchy feely person...I mostly am ruled by logic...if something doesn't make sense to me then I just disregard it and look for something that does....like a puzzle...I look for the piece that fits. We are all just putting together a puzzle here...someone may have the piece you need....so be nice....ask questions that lead you to the next piece...if someone doesn't have it, thank them for their input and move on. Also...there will be many newbies coming here and asking the same old questions.....be patient...I was(am?) a newbie too!

Every now and then there is a brief glimps of a guiding lighthouse! Thank you,Sosha

I would like to clear up my feelings on this. I am not saying I'm in favor moderating or changing the way the BFF is ran. I also have no problem with people who disagree or question anything that is posted. Far from it. That is part of what a forum is about. The part that conserns me and what I believe Robo is trying to get across is the way some, a very few, on this board, tend to take questions and skeptical feelings and turn them into the Spanish inquisition. It would be nice when this is happening if the members of the forum would help to put a stop to it by voiceing there feelings that that kind of treatment is not welcome. It isn't that questions are asked but often the way they are asked. And as before when this concern has been brougth up I to will probably be told to not let the door hit me in the ass.

Moregon and Sosha, please, let me give you 10 of these

This medium (as a whole) is going to differ greatly from personal interaction. The internet stretches to almost every corner of the globe and that means that people from all races, religions, creeds, etc.. will have access. It's basically a giant melting pot. Everyone has their own ideas as to what they think is real, what's fantasy, and what's rumor. When we all meet up to discuss this topic (which incidentally is going to cause some friction with the common public due to it's nature), we have to come in open minded and be willing to listen to other peoples ideas and questions. Most people here have never met anyone else on these forums personally, I know I haven't, and you have to give a certain level of trust. Some of the stories I hear on here are obviously in left field, whether a member posts it or it's a story from someplace else. I use my own judgement to decide if it's true or not. That's the benefit of an online forum, you can come to your own conclusions in the privacy of your own home without offending someone else.

Granted, this is a fairly slow moving subject and there have been times recently that I was extremely bored with the topic because it was the same content being rehashed over and over. Like most people, you eventually resume interest in it and come back. I left for a bit and now I feel there's enough new information to retain my interests. It's tough for me because I have never seen a sasquatch, or even heard one for that matter, so I am relying on the stories and media from others to draw my conclusions. Luckily there is a site like the BFRO which I find myself reading daily. I enjoy reading the new sighting reports and that in and of itself is a good reason I stick with this. Many people, including myself, can only hold an interest in something so long without actually experiencing it for themselves. I hope my day comes soon, because if I ever did see one, I am sure I would retain a lifelong interest in the subject.

Bottom line. We are all human... stories will fly, accusations will be placed, but you just have to take it all with a grain of salt. I think new people are a valuable asset to this or any research because it adds more opinion and scientific debate. It's all healthy whether people see it like that or not. I think the biggest problem would be creating a private section in which the only access is by invite. People would feel sour about this and lose interest in the board or even the subject. I know that I'd be pissed if people were discussing things in a place I couldn't see. This topic is tough enough as it is, we don't need any added trauma in the picture.

Just my $.02

I thought this post of mine from early December was relevant, so I'm quoting it here.



To me, it's all about professionalism. When I see people behaving less than professionally and they're serious (not talking about humor here), I get disgusted. I've tried to be a quiet voice for that kind of attitude for a while here. Recently, I was a very loud voice for it.

Being professional doesn't mean you can't let your hair down or have fun. It doesn't mean you use ten dollar SAT words and start saying "Indeed" and "Quite frankly". It doesn't even mean you have a degree (did I just say that? ).

It means being measured with your words. It means speaking with objectivity. It means being fair. It means laying out your position and reasoning, hopefully with data or evidence, so that you don't have to resort to the sometimes puerile rhetorical power that a CAPS lock key and a thumbs down smilie can convey.

People who are professional in their demeanor come off as very polished, and I make sure I read all their posts. Sometimes, they aren't even the ones who know the most about the topic at hand. It's just the way they handle themselves.

Of course, whenever we look at ourselves, no one ever says, "Yes, I am unprofessional." It's always someone else, isn't it?

So, I just want to identify two posters here that are consistently professional in their posts: Colobus and VernF. There are many more that I could name, but I'm not here to make an exhaustive list (besides, those excluded would have my head! ).

Both of these BFF members regularly make valuable contributions to the discussion and place a great deal of thought into their posts. I've never seen any post from either that was objectionable. They are incredibly gracious, even when disagreeing with other members. I wish more would emulate them.

Again, just my two cents.... and I do count myself among the people that should strive to be a bit more polished.

Very interesting and timely post Robo.

I am curious ... some folks on BFF seem disturbed that serious researchers are not more forthcoming about their research or results. What exactly do such researchers stand to gain by posting results, final or preliminary, on a public discussion board?

Research of a serious nature can take years or decades. Moist scientists, or people of professional standing in the sciences, are very cautious about releasing result prematurely, when to do so could hurt their careers, and ultimately their families.

Do some BFF members feel that they are owed something by the handful of professionals taking a serious look into the subject? Many of them look in on this board out of curiosity and interest, but don't entertain the thought of using it as an outlet for their research results.

Does anyone think it should be otherwise?

colobus - obviously nobody is obligated to share anything they would rather not, but over the last few months, we have seen researchers, some quite well known, share some fascinating information and evidence on the BFF. And we witnessed a few rude and nasty individuals, who seemed more interested in picking a fight than in learning anything, shut up those researchers to a large extent, and cause other valuable members to quit the BFFs in disgust.

My point, which Tsiatko reiterated very well, is that if we want to enjoy more of this kind of information, and have the ear of more serious researchers and open minded scientists, we need to cultivate an atmosphere where serious discussion is possible, an atmosphere with intelligent skepticism but without hecklers.

While many people have posted in this thread eloquently recounting the merits of the BFF (and I agree with nearly everything that has been said), I don't think anyone defending the status quo has really addressed this main point.


I do think that Tsiatko may be right in that it may be possible to address this without such drastic measures as I proposed in my first post (as i said there, they were just ideas, not my master plan for world domination, which i won't be revealing until next week).



Who knows, it might work.

-robo

Personally, I don't think anyone in this field owes me a darn thing. Afterall, they didn't come looking for me...I came looking for them. Just try to look at it from the point of view of a person who is hungry for information on the subject, be it from a personal experience, or from a left over interest that was started years before. Who do we have to turn to for answers? There are no "experts" in this field, so we grab at whatever information is available. Thankfully, some of the people who post to this board are willing to share what they know. And basically, that's what we have to go on.

Robo--I understand where you're coming from with this thread and agree for the most part. BUT, regarding the above paragraph, I have to speak up, and this will be the only time. Obviously you're referring to the bark-ball thread. I would like to point out that you are FAR from speaking for everyone here with your above statement and others like it regarding that thread and the people involved. I don't want to get that whole debate going again, but I do want you to know that there are MANY people here who disagree completely about where the blame should have been placed in that instance, including a couple of *gasp!* BFRO members themselves.

And that's all I have to say about that. Honestly.

No, I mean it.

BFF is a nice place. I like it here. I expect nothing but have received much. I have made contact with other researchers and hope to work with them in the future. I can't think of anything more valuable than that.

I generally find that a lot of the discussions are speculation and rehash. Once I determine a thread is following this bent, I don't pay attention to it anymore. No skin off my nose.

I enjoy the professionalism of many of the participants. We seem to have many experts from a wide range of fields. I appreciate all their help and their willingness to share their expertise with us.

Robo, you are one of those I have learned to respect. I respect your starting this thread, but I would not want to see a part of it closed to others. Open forums like this remind me of brainstorming sessions, where one of the rules is that nothing is to silly to put on the table. All ideas are recorded and chewed on. This is part of the creative process.

With the sort of sharing that goes on in forums like this, Big Foot could become less elusive, me thinks.

Mick

Being that my sense of humor always seems to overcome any seriousness I possess, I can't resist 'reprimanding' Colobus for trying to slip in some 'obscene' material.

ANYWAY.....


Excellent point.

There's the key words...UNTIL A BODY SHOWS UP...and I mean that in a metaphorical sense too e.g. until it's proven absolutely. Short of that, ALL we can possibly do here is opine, debate conjecture and supposition, share experiences and dare I say it, hypothesize.

I find it somewhat objectionable that certain persons in the BF field, on this board and wherever else out in the world and on the internet THNK they have a better 'point of view' about it all than the rest of us. Except for people that have had actual LEGITIMATE sightings, I have YET to find a single person that I feel truly KNOWS MORE than any of the MANY long term followers such as myself. I'm NOT discounting John Green et al either. I admire him (and his research) and many other persons of his ilk, as their passion is unbounded and often quite pure in nature. My point is EVERYTHING this board does, is and says, good and bad, is ALSO part of the overall picture.

With the OBVIOUS exception of certain NUTCASES, MENTAL MIDGETS and DRUG ABUSERS, to want to separate the 'good guys' from the 'bad guys' by virtue of their PRESUMED 'wealth of knowledge' or 'in the know' reputation is absurd. We're talking about a heretofore MYTHICAL creature. I'm betting this board was NEVER intended to 'categorize' who any one person is or isn't in the field. It was developed to DISCUSS, in all manner of ways, by all sorts of participants, good and bad, the subject at hand.

As to the rehashing, the reiterations, monotony of the discussions etc. etc. I agree it does get a bit old sometimes. From our own curiosities' standpoint, no news IS NOT good news. The natives get restless and that's just human nature. Despite that, we can do only one of two things, continue with the hope and carry on....or fade away. Everything else is just 'personal problems', which none of the rest of us have any control over.

"Harry"

- from "Bigfoot Prints" A scientific inquiry into the reality of Sasquatch, Grover S. Krantz, 1992

I have been reading this book. After reading this thread I thought this quote sums up my feelings. I know that I have not been here very long. I have a a personal interest in doing research into the solving the mystery of Sasquatch. From a personal encounter and doing research off and on over the years. I have always used the skills i have gained over the years doing historical research as a guide. The information I have learned is priceless to me. I always pride myself in listening to others to gain more understanding and knowledge. I joined up here after reading a few threads that caught my eye. I have always found there are some really knowledgable people here to read their posts helped me in understanding things. Now I have added some humor in my postings here but only in jest. I know have ruffled a few feathers of certain neighborhood troll that has visited here. The truth hurts when it is exposed.

I think Robo has made a valid point here. If this board is to be a open forum of discussion about this topic we all enjoy talking about then we as members must be more respectful of others. Especially new ones. I can understand that we have that urge to rip apart someones post if we know that is sounds fishy and not right. If we allow them to post and feel comfortable then everyone might begin to open up more. Be polite when pointing out that their facts are not correct. Think about the impression that you make when you do rip apart a post. It does reflect back at everyone else.

I not sure if this makes any sense. I think there should more flow of information among the Researcher Community here. Trust has to be nutured by Members.

going back to the shadows...

Oh my, Harry is a wetness to Colobus' obscenity
(sorry, inside joke )

my bad.

Well, I’ll put my 2 cents in while it’s still an open forum. I’m glad I found this forum. For the last few months, I’ve been searching the web for good places to get information and possibly a forum were I could read post by “Real Researchers” who are getting out in the field and doing things and coming up with good ideas.

I often wondered why there wasn’t a Forum on the BFRO site and now I know I think I know why there isn’t. It would be just like this and the people at BFRO don’t have time do deal with all the “Newbies” like me who are sponges for information and don’t have the time to sift through the thousands of post to find answers to questions we have. With this format we feel open to ask some stupid questions and know that there will be someone willing to say, “There’s a post already on this topic at XXX” At the same time you can get other “Newbies” input who just might have some good insight that hasn’t been thought of. The truck stuck under the bridge problem comes to mind. When engineers were trying to figure out how to raise the bridge to get the truck unstuck, it took a simple mind looking from the outside to just say, “Why not flatten the tires of the truck?”

The answers to research problems can come from all minds, not just someone who has spent years working on the subject. They sometimes have blinders on and it’s hard to think outside the box.

Cut4sign

I signed up with this outfit to mostly read some "groundwork" intro kind of stuff and occasionally ask a question to help in my "research". Mostly I hike and camp. Recently put a twist, that is pay attention to possible signs, hike in "hot activity" areas. Now I read that you all want to start your own "EXPERT" and "SECRET" talk/forum...whatever...I'm new to this Internet stuff. You all sound like the other sites and EXPERT RESEARCHERS...big talk and no body. A whole lot of thinking that you all got the "know". You all aint got nothing. Read a friends "newsletter" recently, sounded like a paid advertisement by some backwood Rockefeller to not tresspess on his property..he should pay so much attention to tracking the many bigfoot on his property! Go ahead and start your SECRET organization, I can hear the initiation already.."Thank you sir, may I have another!".

Ummm...if you would please bother to go back and re-read this thread, I think you'll see where the general concensus is that having "private" and "invite-only" sections here is a BAD THING. I don't see anyone giving much support to the idea, so I'm curious...where are you getting the impression that anyone here really wants that?

Besides, it's been done once before here, with disastrous results. But, as has been pointed out, anyone's free to start their own private forums elsewhere and hand-pick the membership. If that's what you're referring to, what's wrong with it?

Wow, maybe you should read the other threads first. You will see that contrary to your observation, most people here do not want a secret experts only club. The main reason I joined this place is that it is just the opposite. I am sure you did the smart thing and re-read the threads regarding this subject and came to the same conclusion.

PS. Did this newsletter you speak of talk about hunting monsters in LA?

In five days, I will have been a member of this forum for one year. I have seen a lot in this past year of reading, posting, and replying. I have seen the ridiculous hoax that was perpetrated against the BFF by Robo in the form of a bogus sound recording that he tried to pass off as real. I have seen Robo come back and post and reply his way out of his well-earned "Admitted Hoaxer" title that he had beside his forum name for so long. I have seen the rise and fall of the Coy/Green debacle. I have seen an org called the GCBRO transform into the MHBRO. I have seen the BFRO "Private forum" come, and go. I have seen the "Bark Ball" thread come and go, along with a lot of valuable members. What have I learned from all of this? That this is an open forum, and it is a great place to study and learn how the wheels turn in this field. I have learned that the BFRO is the preeminent org for anything bigfoot, top-notch and chocked full of very knowledgeable and professional people, but they are made up of individuals, and with that comes individual opinions, who sometimes do not convey the opinion of the entire membership roster of the organization. This forum is unique, and has withstood the test of time without shutting down or turning to strict moderation. But, now some want their to be an "invite only" forum for the "enlightened" among us. This is the crux of a lot of problems, some hold others in higher regard and place them on a pedestal. Some want to make some feel as if they are "less important" than others, because they are not a recognizeable name in this subject, or haven't "earned" their place on the pedestal. Is this bipto's problem? NO! He can only do so much, he has provided this place for us to post and reply freely, and it is very much appreciated. He obviously cannot dictate how people feel or express themselves. Why do I not post as much as I used to? Because I am tired of fighting the fight against romanticism and hard heads, and I do not like how some new ideas on some old sacred cows are being shunned and heckled. I am sick and tired of the "don't let the door hit you in the ass" mentality of some of the members here. I miss the old days of this forum, where some great friends of mine posted more, and we didn't have the shadow of "big brother" always looming over us, imagined or real, dictating how we should convey our opinions, less their be social reprocussions, short term AND long term. I miss the days when their weren't two or three whiney animal or religous activist posting and getting huffy at every turn. I miss the days when you didn't come here and see upward of 5 anonymous users on board sometimes, because certain people don't want to be seen here publicly, yet they want to be signed in to read their PM's and see the members only section, although even that has subsided now. Their are a lot of bruises, bloody noses, and ticked-off ego's that will need to heal before they will post freely again. I don't know if this forum will ever be the same again, but it would be really nice if it was. The "Bark Ball" thread keeps being brought up. That thread was a good example of just how far some people will go to defend their heros. The REAL crux of the matter regarding that thread was how people were put on a pedestal and treated like sacred cows NOT to be questioned or treated the same was as others would be, friendships be damned. That's not going to work, and let that thread be a shining example of how that doesn't work. One thing that MUST happen though is to let the "Bark Ball" thread alone, and not keep bringing it up every time someone is trying to point out the problems of the board. Seems as though every time someone wants to point to the problems of the board, they cry "Bark Ball". Well, that did create a lot of problems, but the time to move on is here, and has been here for a long time. It happened, people are going to have to move on and learn from it, but not keep re-hashing it over and over again, picking the scab off of it just when it's starting to finally heal a little. People need to put aside their ego's and make up with some dear old friends, relationships which take precidence over party affiliations. I know one thing for sure, I have met a lot of great people through this forum, and I personally am more appreciative of this forum than anyone can imagine. One of these days, I hope to meet a lot of the great people that are on this forum now and have been on this forum sometime in the past year. Good as gold, many of them. Let us not forget that some of the "newbies" that are joining up as of late could just be the next shining star in this field of study. Do not discount them. I did the same thing some of the current newbies are doing when I came here for the first time, I brought up topics that had already been hashed over a couple of times before, but I did it out of true curiosity and not knowing that the subjects had been brought up before. Patience is truly the path to enlightenment. I just hope the scales will finally tilt back to level and we can get our groove back again, eventually. It's happening, but slowly.

Good to see ya. I was thinking of E-mailing you today.


PS I am the anonymous user everyone sees. Wed-Sat anyways. I have to go incognito from work. But like a ghost in his favorite haunt, I am always here haunting the halls. Well ok maybe more of a poltergiest, but I am still here like a bad penny.

You know, I was just thinking to myself the other day, "Self, where the hell has Vol been?"

Damn good to "see" you Vol. Great post and 'bout time you got your ass back here!

i dont know what i think, robo, about your idea of a private area 'for serious researchers only' (my words, not yours)

i believe that if that happened, the 'serious researchers' who had access to that area would not bother to spend time with 'the rest of us' and that would be a bummer. i couldnt be a 'serious' researcher if my life depended on it.

when i start to be troubled by a thread, i just refuse to read it anymore. it amazes me to watch them grow page by page, and i do get curious, but i dont go in there if i already know i was uncomfortable reading it. (except of course, the 'lets kill one' threads, where i have to have my say. repeatedly.)

i guess i am happy to be oblivious sometimes.

besides, maybe if all the 'serious researchers' had their own forum, i'd be in here all alone and THEN where would i be?

gael

Well...I don't think you would be 'all' alone!

I would be here, my only question about the proposition of a private or serious research thread is, how do you prove yourself a serious researcher, Sub questions from that question would be How do you know I dont have articles and Pics and threads mentioning various Events that start to cross each other (location, time of year, size of foot, TOD and account of what happened) ......


too many questions actually come up, not just one, so I go back to my feelings I'll keep my sense of humor and keep to what I believe to be true

I find myself thinking the same thing, Littlehand. What exactly would constitute a "serious researcher"? All that comes to my (without question, warped) mind's eye is some cat running around in the forest with a magnifying glass, checking over every twig and leaf for hair samples.

Regarding a forum category devoted for only serious research; for those that are newer here, you wouldn't know that originally the Independent Research and Data Analysis category was established for just that purpose. It was also open for anyone to read but Bipto had to grant permission for users to be able to post in that forum. Well, it didn't end up working out as it had originally been intended so Bipto opened it up for everybody.

Now we have the subcategory, Board of Review, for users to post any evidence they've found for scrutiny and criticism by their peers (and by peers, I mean all of us who are members here). That, to me, seems to be sufficient for the purpose of serious review.

Of course, the option of creating a "closed" forum for only "serious researchers" is an option available to any one of us who chose to create such a thing. IMO though, it then becomes much like a country club. Who do you let in? What is the criteria for membership? Must your sense of humor be checked at the door? Personally, I'd want no part of that whether I met someone's standard as a "serious researcher" or not.

Hey Fish--

As Groucho Marx said, I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have ME for a member!

-Vern

The fact that you actually used the word cat

Cheers!!
I thought I was the only one whos vocabulary included "cat" as a refrence to a person