I don't beliecve in anything until I see it. I give the existance of Bigfoot about one in a 100million , at least. I do believe people are seeing something though, most likely bears. I have done extensive backpacking in the Sierra Nevada Mts. here is California, mostly in Kings Canyon/Sequoia Nat. Parks so am quite familar with bears. If you have ever been within touching distance of wild bears you know they smell like s$%#, yes that rotten egg smell people report Bigfoot has! They are quiet too they can get within several feet of you at night without you hearing a thing depite ground covered with quantities of broken twigs. their size gets exagerrated in the dark too. I've seen the Patterson film and otheres and even a child could tell they were faked I'd sooner believe in the Faerie Folk of Ireland than Bigfoot , at least they are small enough to hide in many places. Exactly where does Bigfoot, all 7-8 ft. 400 lbs. go in the daytime?
I do like to read the reports on BFRO though. I had to laugh at the one from Gilroy, 20 miles south of where I live-13' tall eating their ripe fruit right off the trees in the orchard.

Hooray, our first non-believer!

Lycurgus, I too am usually quite skeptical. My belief in bigfoot stems from the sheer vast quantity of sightings dating back to before Europeans came to this continent. I'm sure you are quite aware of what a bear looks like just as I'm sure ancient Native Americans were also quite aware. Yet they all had names for bigfoot. They all believed.

In addition, there are hundreds of reports of footprints that a bear could not make. Are some of them mistakenly reported as bigfoot prints when they are in fact bear prints? Probably. Are all sightings true? No, not all. Some are fakes, some are bears, some are imagined.

I agree that many folks don't see bigfoot when they think or say they do. I agree that all the evidence that purportedly suggests bigfoot's existence cannot all be legitimate. However, I find the thought that all the sightings and all the evidence is faked, imagined, or mistakenly interpreted so unlikely that believing in bigfoot is really quite easy.

You mention the Patterson film. For more info on that, check out this page over on the excellent BFRO site:

http://www.bfro.net/REF/THEORIES/pgfdebunkings.asp

Lycurgus, I hope you hang around and continue to post. When I started this forum, I hoped I'd get some skeptics in the mix just to keep us all honest and on our toes.

Bipto, you're a better "man" than I am. When I read Lycurgus' post, it was all I could do not to flame him for his insulting remarks, which you handled very professionally, like a true scientist and intellectual. I'm neither, of course.

But tell me this: I don't believe in the existence of "Mothman" or "Reptile Man" or "Reptilian UFO Aliens". I've checked them out and feel confident in my own mind that they are all not real. For that reason, I never visit a "Mothman" or "Reptilicus the Scaly Alien" web site, not do I ever use Google or any other search engine to find them. Above all, I would never visit a Mothman or Reptile Dude forum for the purpose of debunking them. If other people want to believe in them and post on forums about them, that's fine with me. Live and let live. Since they don't interest me, I don't waste my time on them.

So the question is this for "Lycergus": What is it about Bigfoot that threatens your belief system or self-esteem in such a powerful way that you would bother to debunk him on this forum? You sound like the hard-core, fundamentalist, hyper-religious person who hits the ceiling when the theory of creationism is challenged by those who believe in evolution. What do you feel threatened by?

I shall be awaiting your reply.

Truth is, when I started this site, I thought about making a section for skeptics, but decided that none would ever show up. I too couldn't figure out why someone who didn't believe in bigfoot would even go looking for a bigfoot site. Now that someone has, I'm happy to engage them in a thoughtful discussion, though I don't expect at this point that Lycergus will ever come back.

Hey Bipto, we're talking about two different things here, like the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. A skeptic is one thing--at least a skeptic is willing to hear the other side of the question. Lycurgus sounds like not like a skeptic, but like someone whose mind is totally closed. As the atheist says, "There is no God", Lycurcus says, "There is no Bigfoot" and his mind is already made up and closed shut against any evidence.

Guess I got aggravated with his rudeness and questioned his need to find someone to insult. If he comes back, I'll keep my mouth shut and be patient.

Ella, you just keep being yourself!

Thank you, it would be kind of hard not to! But I shouldn't have spouted off at him, I forgot to process it first!

I don't have a closed mind just a skeptical one. I look at the odds. Perhaps I exagerrated the one in a hundred million. My first trip this year is the first weekend of June out of Courtwright Reservoir near the north end of KIngs Canyon Nat. Park. I am not the typical fat hunter/outdoorsman. I train year round , have a resting heart rate of 36, have backpacked(50lb. pack) 25 miles(ave. elevation 9,00 ft.) starting at 6:30 AM done at 2:00 PM. Bigfoot if he exists can not out pace me over several hours, sure he is faster over 1/4 mile. But if any of you know Exercise Physiology your ability for endurance is closely releated to your ability to dissipate heat(one reason why Kenyans and Ethiopians are so good, small thin body size). If Bigfoot exists his large body size severly limits his ability to travel long distances at any significant speed. I will have my video camera and will catch him.
Actually I would like nothing better for Bigfoot to exist. I am certainly not a religious nut as one poster suggested. I have read just about everything about the Fatima 'Miracle" in 1917 and I am definatley convinced it was a set up. By whom and for what purpose I don't know. In my mind any religion is nothing but a self serving bureacracy seeking to perpetuate its control over the 'believers'.
By the way has anyone pondered the thought that some Bigfoot sightings could be military related? Could they be testing a human in some sort of strength enhancement suit?

About the religious people trying to use the name of Jesus, and of God, to control people. That's why I'm a born-again Christian and seldom go to church as I get a resentment whenever I do. Anyway, glad you didn't get run off by that smart-mouth, b*tchy poster. Like Bipto said, skeptics are always welcome as a "check and balance" system. 8)

I think Lycurgus needs to see one and then forget this stuff about 7-8 ft tall and 400 pounds.....an 8 footer might well weigh 1,200 to 1,400 pounds....I've seen one 13 footer which was likely about a ton....12 footers
which i've seen were likely 1,600 pounds....left tracks 24 inches long...stepped over a 5 ft tall barbed wire fence and left no hair on it.....didn't seem to make any additional effort to step over it either...it just did it............saw my first one at 10 ft... forget this BS about bears....i've hunted them and shot 2....these are NOT bears.....

I can't pretend to know what bigfoot is, or if it's real, but I'd like to find out, even if I DO have to chase the thing through the woods again.

I'd liked to have caught it, or at least seen it,but it's probably for the best that I didn't because I would have become agressive and yelled at it and started running after it throwing stuff at it-therefore demolishing any chance to ever see it again.

It's second nature for me to defend myself against animals in a launguage they understand, body launguage.

On that day, I was following it, quietly, alertly and aggressively. If I'd of seen it I'd of probably raised my arms and opened my mouth as wide as I could, showing my little teeth, and yelled at it, which is my standard protocall for dealing with anyhting big enough to be a predator.

As scary as it is to SEE a bigfoot,bear, mountain lion, the WORST thing you can do is run.

Running means "look, I'm food, I'm weak so I'm running away!!" And since humans can't move very quick or quiet through the woods-we'd be dinner.
However, standing your ground, making yourself look bigger, shouting and showing your teeth aggressively all mean,"Get your @$$ outa here!!"

I forget who taught me how to tell wild animals to go away in a launguge they can understand, but the above works, it really does.

besides, it'll make you feel better about being scared to yell at the thing.

I know exactly what you mean Anubis, that's my reaction to big animals, too. 'Cept for when I happened onto a baby bear when I was walking in the forest with my kids. Then I very slowly walked away with my heart in my throat and my kids in my arms.....

I would think if I were to see a bigfoot that I would be in so much freaked-out shock and well, I really don't think I would be waving my arms or moving much of anything....hopefully my legs would work well enough for me to calmly move off. With large dogs that works....don't look them in the eye and walk off slowly......

Now a cougar, arm waving for sure, they are a cat and that would be the best thing to do if you felt threatened by it.

Most folks who report seeing an unknown creature described as a bigfoot, are pretty dumbfounded and very intimidated. I think that is the normal human response to something that huge and foreign to them.

Yeah, but learning to control your fear response is hard, but worth it once you do.

Jon, those are some amazing claims. Where have you seen all these bigfoot? Over what period of time? What happened when you shot at them?

And why haven't we heard of it? This is some juicy stuff ya know.

Tell us please.

And why haven't we heard of it? This is some juicy stuff ya know.

Tell us please.

i've seen animals in Idaho, Montana and Arizona. I've been interested in them since the 2nd grade(1953-4). Been collecting stories since '71... saw my first one in '88.....don't recall saying that i ever shot at one....

Sorry! I re-read your post and you said:



Seems you were talking about bears not bigfoot! My bad (and bad for the bears, I'll guess).

Still, that's a lot of sightings for one guy. Got to be some kind of record. Not doubting you (since I don't even know you), just saying...

yo, seriously, that's a lot of 'scared' pants your wife had to wash..........lol.

hate to have anybody be an "atheist" about what i tell them but, i agree that i've had more sightings than most people would want to believe.....can´t be my hunting skill.....luck?.....Wes Sumerlin said it was his luck that let him see 6 over his life-time......but if i´d seen only one i'd still be way ahead of the average "researcher"...the casual tourist has as as much chance of seeing one as most of them.....Rene Dahinden never saw one.....ditto for John Green....Grover Krantz...Jeff Meldrum.....Paul Freeman some time ago said the number 3....i don´t think Bob Titmus ever saw one...Ivan Marx...1?.....so, you tell me why.....i also know a handfull of people who work in places where i've lived and have seen 3.... know more who have seen 2......guess maybe the most reliable way to see them is not be a researcher.... be really lucky....and/or live and work in places where sasquatches are known to frequent......probably not downtown Chicago or the like............so, we all make choices about what we believe, live where we live and do what we do and maybe just get by on luck?.......

I've often thought it ironic that the people who want to see a bigfoot the most never do and many of those who do never thought about it before they did.

Sounds like you know how to be in the right place at the right time (or maybe they're studying you )

i moved to idaho in 1971 from michigan.....figured that idaho must have some sasquatches...after all, wash. ore. calif. mont. had reports of them..i wasn't wrong.....but i did a lot of looking, too...... obsession, location and lots of luck but it still took until '88 to see the first one......had a semester to go on my PhD.....when i saw an old, white, 11 footer built like a basketball player at 10-15 feet....lots of the other self-proclaimed experts won't buy the idea of them being that tall or having that build, but they weren't there....i was. Krantz wouldn't buy it...also said i'd seen a young albino...said so in his book.... i don't buy albino for any of my white sightings or for any i've ever heard about.....i also don't 7 ft 8 inches for the height of the average adult male...no apolgies, Grover....dropped out of PhD program and went to work in the national forest....tripping trees, building roads, driving logging trucks......now i do janitorial work, construction and whatever.....and still look for sasquatches in Patagonia, (Bigfoot Land)AZ ...........................

I brought this up tonight because I cannot sleep after a car accident today (brakes went out) and nobody got badly hurt... but I wonder if a bear hitting you at high speed wouldn't be like getting hit by a car.
I talked to a fellow on the phone today who claimed a female with cubs ran toward him... he said he just stayed down, kept his head down and didnt move. She came up to him and smelled him and left. I thought that was interesting.
Jon, did you get some good stories for Michigan? I always heard there was action in the UP and Nightwing was just there and it sure sounds like it. Also JimF was from Mich but Jim, what part?

Well, regarding Lycergus, I just gotta say that if only one percent of all this stuff (tracks, sightings, vocalizations, annecdotal information, geographical repetitive references, etc.) is true, then.... its real.
To me, being real explains the secondary evidence a lot more than hoax
ever does.

By the way, Paul... questions for you... how close to England do brown bears reach ? And... are wolves still there? And is that big gray man legend taken seriously by people including yourself??
I was the guy who brought the beer thread back (sorry Bipto) thought I would bring the bear thread back

Wow,glad you're ok SR.hope the accident didn't shake you up too bad or anything.I'm from Battle Creek,Mi.grew up in Union City about 20 miles to the south of B.C.Lots of activity in that area in the late 70's early 80's. Speaking of Bears there was a good show on Grizzlys late last night on Discovery,so I'm sure it'll be on again.What was interesting in relation to Bf is that the wildlife guy studied a mother and her cubs for a long period,than went back and had a lot of trouble locating them in the same territory after a bit of time had passed,and this was 'family unit' he had studied closely and were known to him.Makes you wonder if the same holds true for our other furry friends and if their territory may change to anew area after a certain amount of time.Again glad you're ok SR.

Thanks Jim... I will try to catch that grizz special. Yeah, that was weird yesterday a bunch of stuff happened. Anywho, nobody seemed to have gotten hurt.
About the only thing that happened that would affect this forum adversely was I brought up the beer thread again. But I don't get the Bob thing from Rob. Maybe that's best ?????????

I will have to look up that Michigan area Jim.. thanks. I will post some more soon. Thanks again for your kindness.
Regarding the squatch unit and travel... who knows It is probably not set in concrete...

Did the show suggest why the bears moved? Had they exhausted their food supply or did they just wander around?

Hey yeah bipto, I saw that show. If we're talking about the same family unit...they had moved to another "secret" spot on the river to catch Salmon. I think it was more of a teaching experience for the cubs. The narrator said the mother bear had been shown that same secret spot by her own mother 13 years earlier. It was a fantastic show. I think there were many aspects of animal behavior shown which could be applied to Sasquatch.

what RB said,thanks RB.I was out and about today and just got back(field testing new stuff ya know.)I thought what was really interesting also is what you said and they said in the show about how the mother teaches the young,I've also read and seen similar behavior about apes and such,moving territories for food,rearing of young,privacy etc.could explain why some individual bf's are seen in an area for awhile and then disapear or show up in another area far away.

You're right about the traveling for the food supplies jim. Sometimes it is not so obvious to us as to where these animals go, when and for what reasons. Sometimes it could be something as simple as the animals making a trek to an area just for the clams, or salmon, etc... or other seasonal foods. This program also showed, I think, just how complex the lives of these animals can be...all of the various aspects of survival...and interactions with other animals of the same species, and different species, and how these relationships factor into their lives and ultimate survival.

One more note...jim, (or anyone else) did you see the part where the mother bear chased and caught the elk calf? Please note for future reference: humans cannot outrun a grizzly bear. They say to run straight downhill, as a bear's front legs are so short, they can't keep up....phooey! Don't believe that...make no mistake, if that bear really wants you...it will get you...

Thats the part I was talking about earlier when I stopped by at work earlier.I couldn't believe the speed involved,on the part of the bear at over 500 lbs.I would guess in excess of 25-30 mph,Rb that sound about right to you?I doubt some of the black bears I've seen before have ever moved that fast. amazing.and I thought they were fast to begin with,(Don't tell Msfit,you'll scare her even more )

RB right on. There are so many misconsceptions regarding bears and sharks and stuff its amazing. I am sure the same applies to BF as the facts get sorted in the future.
Regarding the speed of grizz, might be close to BF. If so... the arguments I hear for a sprint is 40 - 45 mph. Thats pushing twice the speed of the faster human sprinters.. if thats the case what... 5 seconds for 100 yards?
Y'aint outrunning that. Period. Tree... 18 in dbh minimum for climbing
Get 14 feet up or more I would think... This is all just guesswork from general stuff I have read and people I have talked to who supposedly are in the know.

Oh you guys are sooo right about the amazing speed! The narrator said they were as fast as a racehorse. He was not joking. Yeah jim, 25-30mph at least...uphill, downhill, on the flat, over snags, trees and anything else that got in the way. (I could not belive the speed as the bear closed in on the elk, as the elk was running full blast across an open meadow!) But this same bear allowed the camera to within just a few feet! Selective aggression for sure. And they are not shy...when you are that big and bad, you can afford to walk with a swagger!

I'm pretty sure Bob Titmus claimed two sightings, one involving two individuals.

I know I read that he had seen one from a boat on a beach in the NW on the coast. I saw a film where they recreated (badly) several climbing a hill or mountainside. So he had at least one if not two claimed sightings.

Not to drag out the bear thread unnecessarily, but when my friend and I were camping and hiking in the Canadian Rockies we were required to attend a short lecture and slide show about bears that was presented by the park rangers. They taught us to quickly identify the "dish faced" bears (grizzlys) from the black bears, so we could respond appropriately, depending on which species might be confronting us. They said if it's a grizzly, go for the nearest tree and climb up at least 15--better yet 20--feet, but if it's a "blackie," don't bother climbing a tree because by the time you get high enough, it'll be there waiting for you!

I thought it was a great program. They were able to advise us that a grizzly sow had been seen in the area the day before we began our hike into the back country, so we made sure we made plenty of noise along the way! I like bears, but I had NO desire to meet that lady up close and personal!

Always interesting to see the responses people have about bears and trees

DBH (diameter at breastheight) of the tree needs to be 18 in according to what I have been told and heard. So consider that if the cubs gave a stress scream and ol Mom is galloping your way.
Luckily that dont happen much but I bet it happens more than we want it to.

Pepper spray.

hmmmm.....yes....several of the black bears I have seen over the years have been quite comfy up in a tree.....I wouldn't feel safe there at all!

I hike in bear country and you rarely see them, but I have seen a few and they never have bothered me.....I mean....it bothered me when I saw the cute little baby cub on his hindlegs (wheres momma?!? )but I mean they never hurt me.....

It did scare the heck outta me a few years ago when I read that blacks are more likely to hurt you than grizzlies? I am not sure if its because there are more of them or because of temperment....

But altho I camp and hike in an area crawling with bears I can't remember an attack around here on someone.....up at Tahoe they have had a prob with coyotes going after tourists and actually biting them and mauling a young boy, I have heard of rattlesnake bites and hornet hordes.....but no bear attacks....

now there has been alot of trouble at Tahoe with bears breaking into peoples homes/garages for food, but noone hurt.....

So its interesting......And I do carry pepper spray now....but not for the bears...for people ! And big dogs....but it might come in handy someday for a bear ya never know.....

Yeah, but most pine trees that are 18 inches at my chest will make you have to jump about 15 feet to the lowest branch... and that one will be dead...


I suggest you speak very softly... in a comforting voice...

"Yea, tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...

I shall fear no evil... 'Cause I've got a really big gun..."

Yeah, a really big shotgun ain't a bad idea. This could be the thread where (Misfit, I think with the incredible range of blackbears and sheer numbers dominating over grizz, THAT's why the stats are in their favor regarding hurting people. If the grizz were same density, crap.)
maybe more gun recommendations come down on safety issues.
We all love bears. We would like nothing more for them to never hurt people. And its relatively rare that they do. Compared to how many of them there are. But, sometimes....... Not everybody is willing to deal with that I suspect? Where are the GUNS...

Why carry a gun when a $6.00 bottle of pepperspray would prob work better?

I mean unless you are a expert marksman of course....but I would rather not kill the bear just stop it.....hopefully......eeeekkkk!

MsFit, the thing about black bears it this.
They are much less likely on a per-animal basis to attack a human. They are generaly a more timid animal than a griz, and less territorial.
However......
IF a black bear attacks, it is MUCH more likely to attempt to take the attack to it's completion....and try to kill you. Often, suprisingly, a griz will cut an attack short of actualy killing a person, possibly because in most cases, the attack was simply out of suprise or due to territorial aggression. So, if you play dead, they may well just rough you up a bit and then move on.
But generaly if a blackie attacks in a serious manner, it will make an attempt to complete the attack. That's why "playing dead" will often work with a grizz, but virtualy NEVER works with a black bear. If you play dead with a black bear, it simply starts eating you.......

Thank-you nightwing....

errrr...about the 18" diameter for tree shimmeying.....the last 2 black bears I saw in trees, the tress were bigger than that? I mean the trees were good size pines....

Hey, saw a pic on the front page of the local newspaper of a darted black bear up at Tahoe....it was 500 lbs!

Now this bear was HUGE and was hanging out at the Zephyr Cove campground.....a few people had seen it during the day and it always ran away.....500 lbs don't need to run from noone!

The commentary with the pic said that altho there was a very large bear population at Tahoe, attacks on humans were almost unheard of....altho a few bears have broken into homes and such when people do not secure their trash....

Also, a park ranger from Yosemite was quoted as saying "there have been NO bear attacks on humans in that park since its inception". That says alot because that park is crawling with bears and people. I am surprised by that comment because I thought Yosemite had one of the few Grizzly Bear populations and that I had read of a Grizzly attack there a long time ago....but maybe I am mistaken.

Anyway, thought I would get in another good pitch for brother bear!

500 pounds?!?

*gee wiz

I gotta add two bear stories - I had a huge black bear behind my house last summer (so big my wife didn't believe it was a black bear, but thats the only kind we have in southern NY state). I couldn't estimate his weight, but he was extremely bulky, bigger than black bears I've seen in zoo's. When he saw us (from about 30 yards) he stopped and watched for about 30 seconds, then he turned around and bolted away - VERY fast! It gave me a new appreciation of the physical power that these animals have.

The other story was last month while taking a short day hike with my two boys in High Point (Sussex County), NJ. We rounded a bend in the trail and saw momma black bear and two cubs, again at about 30 yards distance, off the trail to our left on a rocky outcrop. She started pacing in front of the cubs and kind of bouncing on her front feet. I didn't feel that she was acting agressively or in a threatening manner, just a little agitated by our presence. I know that black bear attacks are extremely rare in this area, so I told the boys to keep their eyes on the trail and walk a little bit faster. I watched her from the corner of my eye ( we never got closer than 30 yards) and as soon as the bear saw that we were leaving she settled and turned away from us. Like I said, theres very little history of black bear attacks around here, but seeing them in the woods makes you think twice about bringing kids for a hike.

On the bigfoot subject, I think it would be very difficult for a competent observer to mistake a bear for a bigfoot, unless it was a partial or fleeting glimpse, or a night encounter. My interest in the subject keeps me very alert in the woods and I never thought for a second that this mother bear might be a sasquatch, even when I first spotted her (by her movement behind the trees). The anatomical differences between the two creatures would stand out even to the most casual observer under good visual conditions.

Tips on surviving a bear attack in Field and Stream online.

If you seethis..you are much too close...lol

TIP #1:

Okay..what is it with all this gun love in here???lol

Why it's obvious isn't it? we're all making up for a
lack of something...


Meat in the freezer


Anyway, I posted once about a guy hunting southern
boars with spears. It's not all about the guns