If you are out in the wilderness and for any reason came into a situation where you needed to shoot something very big like a Sasquatch, what kind of weapon would you want to have? I had a friend say he'd prefer a shotgun with slugs over a rifle. In your opinion, what kind of weapon would be the most effective in a close range scenario?

Close range? If it were less than twenty yards I'd probably prefer a shotgun with slugs but even then you probably won't get the penetration you'd get with a rifle.

Of course the knock down power of slugs at that close a range would be tremendous.

But then again, who has shot a sasquatch with both that could give an opinion with any authority?

Well, if your talking about close range shooting (40-60 yds.), I would go with a 10 or 12 guage shotgun loaded with .00 or .000 Federal Buckshot. Slugs are nice, but then you only have one large projectile, as oppossed to the amount of projectiles that you have with Buckshot.

If your intent is to actually go out and shoot a Sasquatch, then I would carry something with more penetrating power than a shotgun. Any rifle from .300 Win Mag and up should do the trick nicely. My preferred weapon is is the .444 Marlin lever-action, using 305gr. Flat Point Penetrators. They have one hell of a kick, and a somewhat equal amount of stopping and penetrating power. I don't think that even a full grown male Sasquatch could stand up to 3 or 4 shots from a .444 with the above mentioned rounds.

When I am out on the hunt for one of these creatures I carry both weapons, the .444 and the 12 guage shotgun. Because from all reports, they travel in groups, and the shotgun could come in handy once you shoot and kill a creature. If it's kin comes in for it/you, that close range weapon could be a gods send.

But if I had only the choice of one weapon, it would be the 12 guage shotgun, loaded with the Buckshot. Better to have a weapon suited to the situation that will probably come about if you inflict damage to one of them.

A shotgun could also be used as a crude scalpel if you do shoot and kill one of the creatures. It's quite obvious that a person would not be able to take the entire body, unless they had a vehicle in the immediate area. It would take a considerable amout of time to sever important Sasquatch body parts with a hunting knife or hacksaw. That's where the shotgun be used, it would take no time to sever a hand, a foot, and hell maybe even the head, with a few blasts from your shotgun. I know it sounds gross, but you have to admit that it would be practical.

An opinion with any authority?

I've seen the effects of both weapons on large grizzly bears, grizzly bears that would be in the same weight class as Sasquatch.

I understand what you mean about weight class SFS but I can't help but wonder about bone and muscle density and how that could also affect the performance of either slugs or bullets.

It's just that for the time being, it's all speculation. But, of course, that also keeps it interesting.

I was on a SWAT team for eleven years and have huntied big game for over 15 years. A shotgun with slugs will never it as hard nor most importantly expand enery into a body cavity like a high power caliber. A shot gun will travel with a lot less velocity and a lot less {foot pounds of Enery} the biggest indicator for knock down power. You want something that will not only kill but will knock down or stop a danderous animal in it`s tracks. Of course all the big magnums 300 win mag and up have stopping power, but my favorite is the 45-70. you can get it in a winchester lever action rifle with a capacity to hold 8 rnds, a big advantage over the big magnums that will only hold 3 to 4 depending on the rifle. The lever action is also very fast to reload and get back on target after the first round has been fired. I have a Winchester Trapper model that Has a Wider ~John Wayne~ style lever for faster action and a short 18 inch barrel for close encounters. You can get them in 405 grain bullets, About the size of you thumb, I have shot several bears with these and they will knock the fire out of even a BF when up close. I`ve seen and shot 500 pound bears with this caliber they go down like they were hit with a sledge hammer. The biggest advantage is being able to handle this round and not have to count on hitting dangerous game with your first round. The 470 Nitro express and the 500 nitro express shoot over 500 grain bullets at almost 3000 FPS but most guns only hold 2 rounds and I`ve shot both of these and they feel like someone is hiiting your shoulder with a sledge hammer nothing will make me shoot one again. A last note you can buy the 45-70 in bulk for about 100 rnds for 89.99 the 470 nitro express is 209.00 for just 20 rnds. Hope this helps try the 45-70 you will fall in love with it.

I must agree here. The Winchester 45-70 lever-action rifle is very good choice. This rifle has all the stopping power necessary, is easy to carry, and not overly cumbersome to pack. Lots of power here folks, trust me. Try one out, and you'll be convinced.

12 guage .plug removed.first shot 00 buck(you just hope to make a hit to slow em down).then slugs after that.if that didnt do the trick,kiss your a** goodbye

i CARRY A WINCHESTER DEFENDER 12 Gauge with stagered 00 and slugs and as my back up to that I carry a glock 45 cal pistol with metal jacketed rounds no hollow points not enough penetration when they hit fur.

OO buck shot does not have the stopping power. You need penitration and this is not the answer In 1992 I shot a 467lbs black bear on a deperdation permitt out of groveland Calif.[ just west of yosemite park.] it was getting into a local resturants food every night. It had to be destroyed so we went out thinking that we would chase it with the dogs out of the area then shoot it. We let out our best Walker out at the place and the bear was right in the back yard of a house next to the resturant. It bayed up { stood to fight the dog} I yelled to let the rest of the dogs out and went for the 45-70 I shot at a distance of 25yrds as the bear took a swing at one of the hounds. The bullet cliped and broke the bears wrist, continued into the chest cavity, went through the spine and then through the back wall of the resturant and through a booth and enbedded into the header of a window, It was 4am and the place was closed. The bear, dispite it being all amped up with the dogs went down in one big pile and never got up. it field dressed 467lbs. It was a true 500 pounder. It never knew what hit it. That is the kind of power the 45-70 can generate. OO buck is good but would not of had the same results believe me i know i`ve tried it on bears it will not kill them as quickly. In a close encounter with say a charging BF I would put my life in the hands of a 45-70 i`m confident it would stop one in it`s tracks

45 with full metal jackets is a good choice I carry a 44 mag with full jacketed bullets, I also have a win. lever action rifle chambered with the 44 mag but will most always carry the 45-70

One thing we used to do was shoot 30.06 shells out of a shotgun and that slug would come out spinning real funky but it made a heck of a splatter when we did hit our targets. Of course there is always the Glaser 'Safety slugs' that were meant for internal damage and reducing collateral damage. Don`t know the biggest shell size those came in but they sounded like a short range option.

I like the option of the buckshot first and then see what is on Bf`s mind for the second shot. I would think it would be a real scare for one and like any other animal hearing a distinct metallic sound might give pause...

We use the team approach here, assuming you are comfortable and safe with the weapon, one member usually carries a 45-70 (Mauser 98) and then if he shoots something the other member carries a MAK90 for close-in defensive shooting only.
We don't want mommy and daddy to hurt us if we shoot junior, and 30 rounds can be very comforting!

Your mileage may vary.

My choice is a rifle, based on an email that I got from a friend last week about the shooting of the largest brown bear in modern Alaskan history this past fall. If standing on it hind legs this bear would stand over 12 ft tall and weighed almost 1400 lbs. The bear had killed and partially eaten one hiker that had put four .38 slugs into it.
Fish and game guy shot it with 6 rounds from 7mm mag. and the bear was still breathing so had to put 2 more round into it to kill it.

Based on this my preference is a rifle, a very big rifle. Penetration to the vitals is crucial.


Wis.

If that was the infamous picture showing the guy posing either with the paw, or next to the head....that story is a hoax.
If not..any way to see a picture of that bear?

Been around guns all my life...
And have never heard anything as odd as attempting to shoot a 30.06 cartrige out of a shotgun...
First, it would not even chamber(unless you came up with some cobbled up secondary system).
Second, if it would, it would be very low power, as there would be NO effective gas check..thus, velocity/energy would be limited to that generated only by the shell.
Third..even if the above two scenarios were somehow overcome...you were running an extremely serious risk of damage to both the firearm and the shooter!
However, I am NOT saying it didn't happen..just that there are some serious shortcomings to surpass, and you cannot just drop a 30.06 round in to a shotgun!
If indeed you did the above, I would be interested in just how you managed it?

Nightwing,

Yep those are the pictures that I got. I wasn't aware that it was a hoax. What's the story behind the hoax?


There were a series of pictures of the bear but what made me believe it was the picture of the hiker that came with it. Almost completely chewed apart from the waist down. That one didn't look faked to me.

Wis.

Ah, the pictures were NOT fake..but the bear pics and the corpse pictures were NOT connected in any way.
Someone just took them, and built a story around them.
From what I gather, the bear was big, but not a record, and was shot by a millitary guy on leave who was...bear hunting! No real impressive story, just a picture of a guy with his trophy that took on an internet life of it's own.
The bear pics are good...the guy is positioned is such a way as to make it look gigantic(which, I suppose, it is), but not really as huge as it appears..
I don't think the origin of the second image was ever determined...only that it had nothing to do with the bear.
Most of the major on-line hoax sites have a write up on this one.
Again..real pictures, but a fake story built around them.

ok, here is a link to one of the hoax reports.
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/library/bl-grizzlybear.htm

Nightwing

Thanks for the note. So much for reality from the Internet

Wis.

The closest things I am aware of are:

An uncle of mine fired .410 shotgun shells in some kind of an old surplus military rifle; I believe it was foreign, but I have no specifics.

You can chamber and fire a .44 mag pistol round in a standard unmodified .410 shotgun without any kind of adaptor.

Better make durn sure it is a cylinder bore - no choke!!

take a 12 gauge and shoot the thing rite in the chest, and watch a hole be blown thrue it...but from far away i would insist a rifle of some sort with a scope on it...and give the thing a pece of lead to the head!

In discussing which is the " best gun" for a given dangerous game situation, the discussion always drifts into debates about muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, downrange energy, etc. However, none of this really amounts to a hill of beans unless you can confidently and accurately hit your target in a vital area and follow up with as many fatal shots as necessary.

When it comes to close range kill power, a shotgun is hard to beat. And, they are a fast point and shoot weapon that can deliver quick follow-up shots. Don't readily dismiss a load of 000 buckshot as being wimpy. 000 buckshot is 36 caliber in diameter, which makes it just slightly larger than a 38/357 magnum in diameter. I believe the last time I checked, there were 12 pellets in a 3 in. 12 gauge shell. And, at 1400 feet per second, the muzzle velocity exceeds that of most 9mm and 38 special loads. One thing to consider about buckshot, is that it does not always behave in certain chokes as birdshot does. In some guns, buckshot actually performs better in the loser chokes (i.e.; improved cylinder) then it will in a tighter full choke gun. To be sure, you should pattern test the gun at about 35 yds and 50 yds to see how big of a pattern it is shooting. However, the keyword here is "close range." Buckshot was not designed to be effective on dangerous game at further distances. Round pellets don't have nearly as good ballistics coefficient as a bullet.

When it comes to distances out to 50 or 75 yds, a slug should be considered. Even out of a two and three-quarter inch 12ga shell, most 500 grain slug loads are traveling at about 1,500 ft. per second at the muzzle, and are still traveling at least 1,300 ft. per second 50 yds downrange. My opinion is that if bigfoot can take one shot of this in the chest and still keep coming, I think it's time to called EB and tell him he was right all along. One thing to consider when comparing the shotgun slug to rifles is that if a projectile travels through and through the target, that means that projectile did not expend all of its energy in that target. Shotgun slugs do not usually shoot it through and through large bears. However, as such, they did deliver every ounce of energy they had into that bear.

However, shotgun slugs do have their limitations. Their accuracy is somewhat limited. Most smoothbore shotgun slugs I have seen did good to hold about a 4 in. group at 50 yds. Also, even though a shotgun is a fast point and shoot weapon, you will notice that the size of the bead at the end of the shotgun barrel will tend to cover up even the largest deer at distances beyond 75 yds. For that reason, its accuracy at long distances cannot be relied upon.

At distances beyond 75 yds, you really need to be thinking about a rifle. For distances out to 100 yds, you should consider some of the fast handling lever action rifles chambered in .45-70, .444 and the like. However, these calibers were not designed to maintain their velocities very well at over 100 yds.

But, the criteria here was "close range."

Both of your points might be possible Terry(although, even when the calibre/gauge is similar, I think it's dangerous..).
But...a .308 calibre rifle bullet is FAR smaller then 12 ga. and the rifle case will NOT chamber in any 12 ga. shotgun I can imagine.

I can see were this could become a heated topic. But living in a shot gun only state i would have to say shot gun. I would only shot if i were charged and only if i had to. And the gun of choice would be my model 1100 with three inch mags and backed up with my 44. But i wan't to make it clear that i don't wan't to kill a bigfoot but i'm not going to die looking for one either.




Zeus

I go with the 45-70 with a good 405 grain handload. The Marlin model 1895 guide gun is a strong, quick handling rifle. I also carry a Ruger Bisley revolver in .45 colt, with a hot 325 grain handload. Also muzzle energy doesnt tell you squat about stopping power. A much more reliable indicator of stopping power is the Taylor Knockout Formula. You can pull up a calculator on your search engine by typing in Taylor Knockout Formula.

I hate to beat a dead horse But a shot gun with 00 or 000 buck shot IS NOT CONSIDERED A DANDEROUS GAME STOPPER. It will not stop a charging 500 lbs animal no matter what you think. Th e perfered cal. for guides on Kodiak Island is not a shot gun with OO or OOO buck shot nor will it ever be it is magnum rifles 300 mag or more a 36 cal pellet, 000 buck has about 9 of them traveling at 1400 FPS will not, I REPEAT, will not have the stopping power of say a 45-70 at 2700 FPS 405 grain bullet. it is great for a 185 lbs male, but we are dealing with a much, much bigger animal than a human male. Anything less will get you killed when the chips are down

I have to agree with sagehunter...being around firearms half my life...you are going to have use something bigger than a 12 gauge.

How about a .375 H&H Magnum? I have read up on it and found it would be a pretty good round to take down something big.

I personally carry a lever action .44 magnum rifle with special hollow point rounds.

If one encounters a charging Zoobie, and one hasn't got a super-powered rifle like the ones described above, perhaps the best tactic would be to aim at the gut rather than the chest, to cause pain that would make it slow down or stop, at which time follow-up shots could safely be delivered to the chest (where the vital organs are). I'm basing this idea on an article that said that the FBI recommends its agents do this in a gunfight: i.e., incapacitate the attacker first, then finish him off.

Of course, like most opinions on this topic, this one will provoke a counter-opinion. Let's hear it. (Naturally, I won't object if you endorse my trial balloon!)

I really think that all you have to do is look at what big game hunters have used over the last century for the most dangerous game on the planet. Hunters in Africa when going after the Big 5 have all used very large caliber rifles. If you want to stop a charging lion or even a rhino you need something that will get the job done, period!! I'm in the rifle camp.

You'll put your eye out with that thing kid

Sweet.

I would suggest any safari grade rifle .375 and up. I carry a Winchester .458 Lott bolt action rifle loaded with 600 grain soft points. I also carry a .454 Casull single action pistol for back-up.




.458 Lott (far right)

Next BF shooter for 2004

Well Nightwing it does sound like you say it could not be done. I have also grown up with all sorts of firearms. We were bored and we were kids at the time. I did not imply I had picked up another 500 feet/sec or had blown through an engine block did I ? Of course it is unsafe for any and all handguns or rifles or shotguns in any situation. I have not been under the delusion that absolutely nothing will go wrong each time I chamber a round. I don`t recall telling anyone to teach their kids to do this. I simply stated what my friend and I had done-no more. Is it something I would do now ? No. If you were just curious ,a simple PM would have been nice but there was a lot of condescension in your post. Which is always nice.

We did in fact use 'a cobbled up system ' for overcoming those two points of yours. All by pure luck as we had been shooting spent shotgun shells off of pumpkins on a farm. All for show of course but two of the shells had been shot through end to end and it made a perfect fit for a rifle shell. So we picked up as many spent shells as we could and made these 'things' with 165 grain 30.06 shells. We had some PVC piping that was just about right for covering the shell and sliding in the empty shotgun casing. Grabbed the shotgun and blew apart some pumpkins. Just the one time and no we were not impressed enough to go through all the trouble again.

As for just dropping a rifle shell into a shotgun ? Oh Please ,we knew that and I had not stated that either....

It is possible though. They make those things that shoot 30-06 out of shotguns. They're called Chamber Adapters or Caliber Adapters. I think they are use for emergency purposes only. You can even get one that will shoot .45-70 out of a shotgun.

I think Tongo has it right with the 458 Lott, but I think a 458 Win. Mag. would do the trick. If a 458 with a 450 gr didn't stop whatever I wanted, I'm leaving!

To answer the original question... a shotgun with slugs or buckshot would be better then nothing. I went to Alaska years ago and all I had was a 12gauge. I stuck slugs and buckshot in it. I staggered the ammo, starting with buckshot, slug, buckshot, slug... I took that sucker everywhere. I think it was said best in the movie Lonesome Dove when Capt. Call handed Newt a pistol and said "Better to have it and not need it, then it is to need it and not have it."

A bazooka won't do you any good either if you miss. The criteria here is close range with fast-handling and quick follow-up shots on a fast-approaching target. A bolt action rifle with a scope does not fall into this category.

Here's a fun game we used to do all the time to keep sharp. However, be prepared to get your gun dirty and scratched up. Stand in a box 4 ft by 4 ft drawn on the ground with powder or chalk. Have a friend roll old car tires downhill at you (a very steep grade, short distance.) Make sure your shooting range is 25 yds or closer over rough ground. However, set it up so your tire-rolling buddy is safely out of the line of fire once he rolls a tire. You must stay in the box. You must hold your weapon as if you were carrying it, with the safety on. You are not allowed to hold it in the "aim" position. Try to hit the oncoming tire before it knocks you down, or forces you out of the box. On our little "death tire" range, you might get a second shot if you are extremely quick. You might also be surprised at what weapons will stop or deflect the tire, and which ones won't.

I'm known as the death-tire king. My tires knocked more would-be hunters off their feet than you can count.

However, my weapon of choice if I am the sucker in the box is my 18" barrel Remington 870. I could usually stop or deflect the tire by the 2nd shot. The death tire never got me when I used the shotgun.

I was somewhat successful at hitting the oncoming bouncing tire with my Weatherby Magnum. However, I did miss regularly, and never got off a second shot with any accuracy before being hit with the tire, or forced to jump out of the box. I have been eaten more than once by the death tire when using the rifle.

If the tire was a charging bear or wild hog, my hunting career would have been finished long ago.

I guess my advice would be don't ever get caught in the box!

Condesension? Nope.
Questioning of a very unsafe practice(in which you DID seem to imply it was a possible method for creating a "stopper"..), yep.
Anyway, thanks for the explaination of how you managed it. You are lucky to still have both hands!

Go to your local hunting shop and rent or by the Black Death movies of actual hunts in Africa for the most dangerous game they have many charging lions and cape buffalo at close point blank range no one not the hunters nor the guides carry a shot gun of any kind. Why? Simply they know a 12 gauge does not cut it on a dangerous charing game. And they don`t shoot them in the stomach they shoot for the front sholders are hips to brake down the motor mechnism so the animal can`t support its own wait. they end up craching to the ground with the likes of 460 weatherbys 470 nitros and 458 win mags NOT 12 GAUGES So i would say that an experinced guide in Africa knows more than all of us rent the movie it is a eye operner are just how hard an animal of size and determination to stomp ones guts out can be very hard to bring down even with the big bore calibers

And there was me planning on taking one out with my Leatherman !

There is a difference between hunting and defence. It is true that the large rifles used in africa have great knockdown power. they also have much longer range than the shotgun. In Alaska most hunters use large caliber rifles to hunt but many use a 12 guage with slugs for protection against bears. Many also carry large caliber handguns along with the shotgun for defence. The shotgun with a slug has great knockdown power and also the ability for quick follow up shots in the case of a pump or auto action. For close range protection I would prefer the shotgun with slugs. For hunting I would want the range of the rifle. Just my opinion.

Actually, buckshot works great against lions, tigers, and other big cats. The reason being, is because they are thin-skinned. Actually, many record book lions have been taken with plain old 30-06 rifles.


However, we are not talking about 1500 lb bears, 2000 lb buffaloes, or 4000 lb elephants at distances of 50 to 100 yards out on the open grasslands. We are talking about 300 to 500 lb primates charging at 25 yds in the thick brush.

I'll take the shotgun, please.

Ok .question...as most of you know ,what I know of guns can fill a thimble..So... Would a "breakdown" type of technique that Ive seen deployed in some shows and read about elswhere be effective ? Take out the means of locomotion type of thing ?

Sure. However, consider at what angle this animal is going to present itself for a shot. The parameters of this thread indicate this animal will be coming directly at you. Will it be standing up facing you, or on all fours running at you? There's a huge amount of difference in the types of shots that will be available to you depending upon how it will present itself. Standing up will give you a better target by exposing the chest to you.

Running on all fours at you doesn't give you a very good shot at the chest because the closer it gets to you, the optimum angle for a chest shot starts to deteriorate. This leaves you with a brain shot or a shot to the spine behind the head. These are much smaller targets. Also, take into consideration that you might be using a rifle and only have time to get off one shot. (I bet that rifle wouldn't feel very secure at that moment.)

Look at the attached pic and put yourself in this guys' shoes. This bear is running full speed at you. Where are you going to shoot him? How many shots do you think you will get? Would you be feeling your Wheaties right now? Or, would you hope there is a guide standing next to you with a shotgun ready to shoot this bear in the face blinding him, and making him stand up so you can finish him with a rifle shot to the chest. Or, if you miss, ready to back you up with a couple more quick shots while you wrestle another round into that bolt-action rifle!

thanks Steve.just curious from some things I've been reading...

I am sorry Nightwing for you reading something else into my post. I had never meant it for an actual stopper just relating a short-range option I had done once before. Of course this is all guesswork on everyones part here. Fish said it best that no one here has shot one with either weapon and so we are reading about every deduction possible. My only reason for posting was ,again, short-range options. I am not in the camp that Bf has an extremely thick hide that must be penetrated. So a shotgun is not a waste of time for me. My opinion. Which is also what I put in that post. If Bf moves away from cameras why should a shotgun seem less of a threat ? But I am also one of those that believes it is just an animal not some genius that can`t be out thought. I grew up in the PNW and so short range for me is less than 50 yards. Coast range of OR I would say 20 yards. If we were out in the plains or a clearcut then hand me a rifle. And I would like to see Paul and his Leatherman have a go at it...

Experience like this carries more weight than speculation, but it's still not conclusive, because there's little experience with shooting a charging BF--or at least, "none have lived to tell the tale."

One difference is that hunters in Africa have a good chance of coming across their prey. In N. America, the chances of a BF encounter are remote, so carrying a lighter-weight (EDIT: and cheaper) weapon like a shotgun is more excusable. Also, if a semi-auto shotgun is carried, more shots can be delivered within a few seconds than with a bolt-action rifle like the super-powered rifles recommended, which should be some compensation. (Although if a high volume of shots is the only criterion, that leads to an absurdity like using a full-auto Glock with a 50-round mag!) (EDIT: an experienced shooter can operate a (cheaper) pump-action shotgun nearly as fast as a semi-auto--so don't jump on me for failing to mention that!)

About stomach shots, which "double up" a human attacker: a BF is like a human, in that its guts are exposed when it charges, not blocked by its upper torso, like four-legged animals. So hunters' experiences in Africa can't invalidate this technique.

EDIT: I missed ETS's post when I submitted this one; what he says seems reasonable--and I like the moderate way he expresses himself. (I feel comfy with maybe-ism, and I wish more people were, not just here, but everywhere.) I'm glad he's back.

Where can you get a 45-70 Extra Light Winchester, seems they are of limited number made based on my limited web search. If not the Winchester , then another lever action someone would suggest.

Keep in mind that lighter models of rifles kick harder than their heavier counterparts.

SPIKEDOG TRY MARLINS 1895 MODEL BUT TO GET THE 45-70 YOU WILL MOST LIKLEY HAVE TO ORDER IT MOST DEALERS DO NOT KEEP THIS CAL. ON THE SHELF

Get a Marlin guide gun in either 45-70 or .450 Marlin(the .450 is currently the most powerfull cartridge chambered in a lever action).
Short, fast, accurage, compensated(to reduce barrel jump, and make follow up shots a bit easier).
Either leave it open sighted, or put a red dot on it.

NP..and, I tend to agree with you that a sasquatch would fall into the "thin skinned" catagorie...and at short range, a slug 12 ga. would be effective.
I don't cary while in squtch mode(well, on occasion, a .44 if in snotty bear country), but if I did it would be either a Marlin Guide gun in .450(or 45-70 with hopped up handloads), or a remington 870 with 3" slugs.
And...fwiw, there are many, many Alaskan guides that carry shotguns as close range backup.
FWIW, however, I don't plan on needing any of the above...