Hi folks,

Found this while I was searching for activity in the vicinity of Arrowhead Provincial Park...

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5...ing.html?cat=44

Very interesting and compelling story. Hits a little close to home as I usually go camping in Algonquin once or twice a year. I always frequent message boards with people who do much more camping there then myself and the topic has never come up. Of course that doesn't mean that there hasn't been any in counters now does it

It would be great if we could get the exact location or even the surrounding lakes names. I'm very curious as to where about this happen.

We had a brief go at this one last May.
Dudlow

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?sho...p;hl=Huntsville

Good observations Dudlow, the details surround the location were somewhat vague as well as the time frame.

I thought it was interesting that you mentioned that there is lots of BF activity in APP. I have only seen a couple reports from there, if you have some or know where I can find them I would love to know:)
I'm sure you have seen this site http://www.ontariosasquatch.com it has a good record of the sightings in Ont, but I'm not sure how up to date it is. The sightings seem to be pretty spread out across the province and with the amount of traffic APP gets and the logging going on there all year round I would think that there are quieter places for BF to go. Although I would love it if there were some there.

There has been a ton of unreported BF activity throughout the Park for a very long time. Dr. John Bindernagel has a small collection of unpublished reports; I have experienced a reasonable amount of BF activity within the Park over a forty+ year period; and a good friend of mine has had ongoing BF experience in the Park for the better part of 25 years. It depends on where in the Park you hang out, when you choose to go and (this will sound odd, but I am serious) how much respect you show for the surrounding environment. Now, by the way, is a good time, since the Park is closed to the public and the crowds of canoe trippers are absent -- it's just a bit cold now for most folks.

Toronto-based Onil Dasgupta of the BFRO led a small contingent into the Park after the season closed -- I think it was either last September or the year before -- and they reported specific BF activity.

I know of a couple of official Park employees with native backgrounds who are not opposed to sharing some of their BF-related experiences, but they seem to have a nose for isolating individuals who, as they put it, carry with them the BF 'vibe'. Otherwise they tend to deny their knowledge. I support their position fully, since the bottom line is protecting all of the denizens of the Park from the public, including Squatchy.

As an aside I will mention that researchers in general -- even most of the mature, long-timers I have had contact with -- don't realize how vulnerable to human activity Squatchy can actually be, especially in the winter. While I have never seen it mentioned in print with respect to Squatchy, just think of how the introduction of popular snowmobiling forty years ago began to change the logistics of creatures hiding from man in the woods in the winter time.

Pat Barker's Ontario Sasquatch site is a terrific start on resolving the problem of collecting and collating reports from Ontario. Until only about three years ago -- before Ontario Sasquatch existed on-line -- there was no specific source for Ontario research or reporting. Finding folks who are willing to both share their BF encounter stories and allow them to be published is somewhat problematic. Personally, because I don't wish to do anything that will put Squatchy in harms way, I don't care to publish my experiences and I rarely share information concerning geographic locations I may take an active interest in. I just tell most folks that I don't do active field work any more. That way I can go about my business without interference, strictly solo as I have always been.

As for unpublished and unreported accounts, there are tons of folks who have had direct BF-related experience throughout Ontario; from suburban home owners watering their lawns at night to potato farmers in Orangeville to canoe trippers in the parks. All you have to do is ask questions, search them out and talk to them. You might be surprised at the responses you get if you take the time and present an earnest and honest approach to the subject.
Dudlow

That is fascinating, I am very intrigued and a little scared to be honest, about the possibility of BF being in the APP. Although I am not surprised that there are more unreported accounts then reported ones. Makes me also wonder if there has been any activity on any of the lakes I have stayed on. Personally I cannot recall any incidents that could be chalked up to a BF. I am a pretty heavy sleeper and snore pretty good so even if something did come by I may never know lol.

I would love to go to the park this time of year, but thanksgiving is the latest I've been in the park and it is still very busy then. I would most definitely like to do some winter camping there. It looks beautiful in the winter.

I also go tripping in Lake Superior PP in the spring and I know there has been a few reports there too. But I'm sure as with the case with APP there are many that have not been reported.

I never knew about the BFRO expediton or about Dr. John Bindernagel having some unpublished reports. Have you had the chance to read any of them?

Any info you would be willing to pass along to me would be greatly appreciated. You can send it in a private message, I'm not picky, just curious.

Cheers

I haven't read Dr. B's reports. I corresponded with him a few years ago about some of my experiences and he responded by email with details concerning other, similar reports from other witnesses in the same areas. Based on other folk's sightings in the same time period and places I believe I encountered some of the same BF individuals, based on the same, identical, physical characteristics being reported. So I don't know how many reports he personally has, but he has been collecting them for decades; just as I have.

The Algonquin Park BFRO connection was not one of their regularly announced, official, open-to-the-public deals. Only a few select persons were involved in their targeted approach. It was led by Mr. Onil Dasgupta, a Toronto based BFRO researcher whose regular day job is with one of the Toronto Metropolitan Police SWAT teams. I just did a quick search of the BFRO database but couldn't come up with the referenced discussion. Alas, forum search functions aren't always the greatest to work with.
Dudlow

Thanks Dudlow, I was hoping you'd chime in on the area.

Kinda looking for places to go camping next year. Was looking at Arrowhead because it seems like sort of a back door to the area. Most of the published reports I can find seem to have squatchy ranging in a crescent around that side of the park... however, I think the mirror image of that crescent lands in predominantly francophone areas so that might not mean anything. Also looks like it would be hellishly busy through late June/July/August, with canoeing promoted up the creek there, so not thinking the hairy dudes would be very close. For some reason I was writing off Algonquin itself as all back-country camping, which I won't get my wife to go for. So looking for drive-in camping with squatchy zones in range through day hikes.

I figure the highway 60 corridor is the most overactive with people area, so the peripheral campgrounds seem more like the places to go to.... however, none of them have showers, I dunno if I can persuade the missus to forgo showers for a week.


You seem to be implying that individuals are readily identifiable, so am I thinking rightly that the Algonquin squatches are what Loren Coleman likes to subclassify as the "marked hominid" variety, with blond or paler patches?

What are the bears like in the area, troublesome or timid?

This is close to me as well. I've worked in the park and I currently work with folks who work in the Park...wardens, supervisors, forester, etc. I've never heard any talk at all about bf nor is there any mention that I'm aware of in historic books. I lived in Whitney and never heard stories there. Dudlow when you say there is lots of activity in Alg. Pk I've got to put it down as the retoric of city folks or those flakey people who tell us every broken branch on the trail is from a bf. Your friend and his father who you say saw one is interesting though.

t.

I meant to add too that 80 miles from Huntsville is Barrie to the south, North Bay to the north and in Georgian Bay to the west. They couldn't have been on the west side of the Park.

t.

The problem with that kind of argument, is that 9 out 10 people don't seem to see anything out there. You'll indicate a patch of woods, and ask a local what's there and they'll say "Just trees I guess." , you go for a stroll in it, come back in an hour and say "Well I saw a beaver, a deer, some chipmunks, a garter snake, 2 woodpeckers... " and their eyes will go wide as saucers as they exclaim "Really? Wow!" I've met people who "went way out into the country for nature walks but never saw anything" and I've taken them into a convenient patch of municipal woodland and pointed out stuff in there, "squirrel, nuthatch, rabbit... " etc and saw their eyes about pop.

Then if you take into account the studies that have been done for things like UFO sightings where 90% of the people who would at least admit anonymously that they saw a UFO also said they'd never ever tell anyone. So the UFO reports available publically represent only the proportion of the 10% who were comfortable telling anyone, that actually got round to telling anyone, and notified an interested party, such as media or research group, rather than a public agency who may or may not have been interested and may or may not have publically recorded the event of their own accord. So, if the same applies to the bigfoot phenomenon, only about 1 in 10 people who believe they've seen one will actually admit that to your face.

So now that boils down to only 10% of the population being "capable" of seeing anything that was within reasonable view, the small chance that there was anything there for them to see*, and the only 10% chance they'll admit to it afterward.. With that in mind, I wouldn't think samples smaller than a few hundred people would be very representative, for declaring, "no-one has seen one" .

(*Meaning the small chance of running into a reasonably rare existent critter by random chance.)

Deliberately choosing a camp site that would cooincide with a possible sighting in prime BF territory is a tall order, 'Flashman'. There seems no rhyme nor reason to encounters other than to assert that the areas in question have involved many sightings historically.

You're right that Highway #60 at the south is jammed in the high season of summer these days; and if you don't have a reservation at least a couple of months in advance, or longer, you won't be able get a camp site at all, let alone one with a shower. Depending on how much driving you may have to do, because I'm not sure where you would be coming from, you can always try the northern approach to the park on Highway #630, about 10 miles west of Mattawa, running south off Highway #17. Usually it's nowhere near as busy as the southern approach -- at least, it didn't used to be -- but the services aren't as well developed as they are in the south, either. The road ends at the Kiosk entrance at the northwest side of the park. Kiosk is noted on most maps of the Park area.

I think finding the right type of camp site for you and your family is the best place to start. Day hikes with good gear will give you as good a crack at a sighting as anything. And if you can plan in advance, by all means, get the 1:50,000 series top map for the area you plan to hike or camp in. It can save your bacon and give you really good insight into penetrating an area of interest and, alternatively, keep you out of no-go zones that you should avoid. There's nothing like wandering endlessly around a swamp and bog area that you can't seem to find your way out of as the sun descends behind the larch trees in the distance. Safety is number one!

The 'marked hominid' variety of BF you refer to by way of Lauren Coleman was often seen from about 1905 through the mid-seventies about 180-200 miles north of Huntsville/Arrowhead Provincial Park. That would be 'old yellow top', seen in and around the mining community of Kirkland Lake. I haven't personally heard of another 'yellow top' type of sighting outside of that mining area in Ontario, but the Russians report a fair number of so-called 'yellow top' encounters on the Steppes of Russia. They claim that two-toned and sometimes three-toned coats are not unusual in their area and suggest it is especially seen among males rather than females. They also claim the dappled colours are almost always on the upper chest and head area, rather than elsewhere, lower on the body. Go figure.

Bears are another story altogether. As you may know, the spring bear hunt was cancelled a number of years ago, so bear encounters are much more common today than in the past. I have a buddy in Temagami who has bears in his backyard quite regularly, some becoming more than mere pests. I would recommend you have Bear Spray with you at all times, because you just never know. Have a good, stout hiking staff and carry a good quality blade you can get to pronto. Nothing like being prepared. If you're a firearms guy, remember that you can't carry in the Park, but you can carry legally outside the Park with the right permits.

Another issue involves cougars which have proliferated remarkably throughout the Province over the past 20 years. Personally, they would be my only reason for carrying a firearm.

Good luck and have a great time!
Dudlow

Sorry, 'Terry', but I do not exaggerate in the least. One of the most dramatic BF experiences I have had occurred in the Park in early October, about 1982, after the Park had closed for the season. Years later I reported it to Dr. Bindernagel. He asked what lake it was on. I told him. He emailed back that he had a report of a similar encounter on the same lake earlier that summer, from somebody else. What were the odds? To this day I have to wonder if it was the same campsite since there were only three sites on the entire lake, apart from the island (there, that gives you a big hint right there); and neither his nor my encounter occurred on the island some folks affectionately refer to as toilet rock, for obvious reasons (another big hint). I already knew it was the worst of the three sites, being somewhat low and poorly drained; but my party had no choice as a squall was driving in fast from the west and the sun was quickly falling. That was a night to remember that I have reported elsewhere on the Forum as the 'whoopy cushion episode', so I won't go into it again.

My first ( or was it the second? ) solo in the Park (at age 16, around 1967) also provided me with some BF mystery one August night in the form of midnight bird calls in call-and-response mode (!??) that woke me up, an inscrutable discussion by two unknown beings in an unknown, low frequency, language that sounded like forced whispers, right outside and above my pup tent, then a couple of pine cones gently dropped against the side wall of my tent, followed by a fingernail drawn down the entire length of my tent, about a foot above my head. I can still hear the padding of their bipedal feet heading down the path away from my little camp site as they again began to quietly vocalize together. All of that was at the edge of a small game trail nowhere near the portage trails and well away from the lakes, essentially in the middle of nowhere; the type of place I usually bushwhacked into on my own. That was also the year I discovered what a 'bear run' meant (another one of those learn-as-you-go experiences).

My friend with 25 years experience in the Park finally was shown the backside by three BF -- Mama, Pappa and Junior -- some four years ago now. They had been playing with him off and on for years but he didn't know who the pranksters were until their family parting 'moon shot'.

If you know any of the Park long-timers working around Kiosk you may already know the part-NA fellow I referred to in another posting above. He spots the BF 'vibe' pretty quickly. When my buddy was loading out after about 45 days in country, this fellow all but accosted him about having been with 'them' since my buddy had 'them' all over him, according to this fellow. My buddy said it was a pretty weird experience so he didn't admit to anything to the fellow and chose not to discuss it at all. But the truth is, this NA guy had it right; he was very perceptive, if not tactful, about sensing the 'vibe'. Now that is an inscrutable talent.

Tall tales and stories is about all we've got from the Park. I don't know of any castings taken from the Park, but I'm pretty sure my buddy and I could have each brought back a good sized sack of you-know-what. As some of you already know, when they don't want you around, they'll sometimes deliberately leave a steamer in the middle of the trail.
Dudlow

FWIW I had a weird experience while camping on Burntroot lake in Algonquin Park in early August of 1993. I was on a 10-day trip with one of my buddies, his girlfriend and a female friend of hers. We'd paddled and portaged our way pretty deep into the park and were camped on Burntroot lake (can't remember which shore, but believe it was the eastern side) for two days before our planned turnaround to start heading back.

About 10 in the morning or so of our second day there I decided to leave the others in the camp and take a hike away from our site on the beach and head up a rocky slope behind where we'd been camped. It was a beautiful sunny morning so I climbed/hiked for about 20 mins until I had gotten to a little crest at the top of this 200' or so high gently sloping hill, then sat down on a bit of exposed rock to watch the trees and the water and just enjoy the sunshine and solitude. The brush in the immediate area was a mix of low scrub willow and dense pine, mostly. Thick enough that you couldn't see anything past a few feet.

I'd only been sitting for a few minutes when I had the distinct (and somewhat unpleasant) feeling of being watched, and heard something that sounded like a small rock thrown through the branches of several trees a few feet away from me. I was quite startled, and looked around behind me (the area I though the rock had been thrown from ) and soon after started hearing intermittent, small rustling noises in the brush about 15-20 behind and down maybe 5-10 feet from where I was sitting. Twigs snapping, brush rustling, that sort of thing. About the noise level you'd hear from person trying to move quietly through the brush but not entirely succeeding. I didn't see anything, and only thought I'd seen the brush moving a couple of times. It had a cadence that made me think of something moving on two feet (snap...crunch...snap...crunch), and what seemed strange to me was that whatever it was was lingering in the area. I was watching and listening for about 10 minutes and trying to figure out if it was a person creeping around there when the female friend came up the slope to sit beside me. As soon as she was close enough that I could hear her coming (maybe 50' or so away) the noises stopped entirely, though I didn't hear anything moving away. Just that whatever it was stopped moving completely. Not wanting to look like a pansy I didn't say anything, and we sat talking for maybe 45 mins and then hiked back down together without further incident.

I always assumed it was a person wanting to stay hidden from me for some reason (taking a constitutional in the bushes, perhaps) though I wondered because we were the only ones camped at our site, and there were no other sites for several hundred meters in either direction along the lakeshore. We had only seen two other groups regularly on our trip up to that point (a young German couple and a father and son) and we saw both of their campfires that night on the other side of the lake. To the best of my knowledge there were not (and still aren't) any backpacking trails near that area.

Many, many years later when I started getting interested in BF I was quite surprised to learn about the number of reported sightings in that very area, and always wondered what it was that I'd heard that day. Occam's razor suggests it was a simply a person who wanted privacy and was annoyed by my presence, but I wonder. Just thought I'd share.

A not uncommon experience in that area, 'MadAxe'. Here's a quick reference with a map covering the Burntroot Lake area of the Park.
Dudlow

http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~ngt/algonquin/...dar_frames.html

I spy a "Wendigoes Creek" and "Wendigoes Lake", no history in the area huh?

Yup, it's a bit of a longshot to pick my campground by "near where there might be rumors of sasquatches", but figure it shortens my odds considerably over waiting for them to come and knock on my front door here. If you're gonna dream of winning any prize in a lotto, you've got to at least buy a ticket.

I was thinking of old yellowtop when I asked that, was thinking 200 miles might not be all that far for him to wander to pay a booty call, so wondered if there was that strain showing.

Funny you mention Kiosk, I had the map up and it looked like a good bet, Brent was up there too, but not so sure I would want to tackle that road in a well loaded car from the description, or pull my camper up it with a minivan if both are fixed up in time. Guess I could bring a bunch of those rubber spring helpers and stick them in before I hit the rough stuff to maintain ground clearance. Travel time from here would be around 8 hours I think. Google maps says 6, but it's usually full of crap. 3 hours of that would be getting around and away from Toronto.

I do know them, I work with them. What lakes are you talking about in your response?
What do you think your bf do in the winter when there is 3 ft of snow in the bush? I timber cruised and marked trees in the Park in the winter and can tell you all the tracks one would normally see. The locals would laugh if you told them what you are saying here, I know many of them, and I know many of the loggers/scalers who work in the winter. Never heard anything.

Pls. don't get me wrong. I'm not being disrespectful Dudlow, I'm trying to understand why outsiders see and report this stuff while the insiders (who are there all year) never report anything. Finally, if you don't see the bf, all of the stuff people say is bf related isn't worth the paper it's written on and can't be believed as being bf related. At least in my opinion. What lakes are you referring too?

t.

I know, 'Terry'. If I was in your shoes and your situation as you describe it, I would most likely think just as you do. I'd be thinking, "Uhuh, then another cow flew by...." So while I can't tell you much, nonetheless, I will send you a PM with a little bit to try to answer some of your questions. I think you'll understand why I don't want to say much more in the open on the Forum.
Dudlow

Just thought I'd point out that "old yellow top" wandered around Cobalt Ontario for much of the last century [not Kirkland Lake].

Good catch, 'Wildlife Artist'! You're absolutely right; most of the 'Yellow Top' reports are from the general Cobalt area.
Dudlow

I think I was thinking Cobalt all along


Now my idea of timber cruising, is like if you take 50 handfuls of hay out of a haystack, count every strand and check it's good hay, and wow you must have a lot in the stack there. But to my mind that would never prove that there's not a needle in it, if you didn't find one.

Hi Guys,

One of my peers advised me that you were discussing Algonquin Park and an expedition that I led there. It's true I did go there in September a few years ago just before the park was closing for the season. Even though I am an Ontario investigator for BFRO this was not an official mini-BFRO expedition. Actually, myself and few of the guys I work with went on a weekend canoe camping trip. During that weeked ( I can't remember the exact date in September) we only saw one other person. The park was very quiet.

To be honest, I never investigated a report from that park prior to my Class B incident. Me and few of the guys went in to relax and take it easy.

We were canoeing for about 2 hrs before we got to a narrow channel just before our first portage. We were four guys in two canoes. Suddenly a large rock was thrown at the nearest canoe to the shoreline, missing the canoe by approximately 5-6 feet. That was not my canoe. My friends in that canoe were shocked and a little upset, thinking it was a "person". I didn't say a word, but I immediately had my doubts that it was a person because of where we were, the location the rock came from and the size of the rock thrown from quite a distance. It did not equate to a person in my opinion. But....I never saw the "perpetrator". About 100 m ahead we got to our first portage. It was a short, narrow portage of about 150 m. We got out of our canoe and could immediately smell what I would describe as putrid garbage mixed with a musk. Hard to describe, but one of the guys said "Smell that?, it's a bear". It was a strong smell and he immediately said it was a bear. Again, I kept quite, but now I felt my first instinct regarding the "rock throwing" was correct. But, I said nothing and kept on with the portage. We then went on another hour and camped on an island for the night. The next day we returned to that same portage site on our way back. Well, right were we first disembarked and could smell that strong odour was the largest "FECES" I have ever seen. It was approximately a foot wide in diameter and about 6-7 inches high at the centre. Best described as a "Flying Saucer Patty". It was absolutely massive ( not trying to be funny). I fully regret to this day that we did not bring a camera. My buddy who thought the smell was a bear is an avid hunter and he did not know what could have made that. We all just stood there and stared at it in disbelief. It was right by the waters edge exactly where we struck the shore the first time we got out of our canoes . It was as if it was marking it's territory and mocking us at the same time. It was that blatent. They all said it was a bear, but once again.....I was silent.

Well, that's my Algonquin story. I chalked it up as a Class B incident. You can form your own opinions because this is a "discussion forum", but that is my conclusion. You won't find it on the BFRO site. I did not report it at the time because I was so busy trying to put out all the existing Ontario reports at the time. There was such a backlog of reports. I went through about 100 reports and found about 50 of them to be legitimate so they were posted. That is why at the time it appeared as though Ontario was exploding with sighting. In truth it was simply a backlog of reports dating back as far as 1999.

I hope that helps guys. I thought I owed you all that explanation.

Onil Das Gupta
BFRO Investigator
Ontario - Canada

Hi

Thank you very much for posting that ~ odasgupta ~


Peace
Tim

Yes, thanks Onil, most interesting. Did you see anything in the poop to suggest what it might have been eating?

Please stop by more often to keep us in tune with any of the Ontario news that comes your way and we'd love to hear any of the unofficial third hand or tall tales you happen to have heard in the force.

regards,

Flash.

No problem, you are welcome guys. I will try and post a little more often, especially is there is something interesting to add.

Take care, enjoy the Christmas holidays and be safe.

Cheers!

Onil

hey Onil, twas me that told your peer about this thread. I think there are tons of incidents happening in APP that are passed off as bear/moose/raccoon. I'm sure I've been visited a few times on Nadine, Shrew, and Ryan Lakes. So many campers exhausted, snoring away in their tents; the park is a goldmine for the curious Sas.

Hi Matt, welcome.

What kind of things happened to you?

Thanks Flash. I had a tent slaps on Ryan and Shrew lake, and on Nadine lake something came into camp at 3am that was walking on 2, and caused my Akita to cry and crawl on his belly to other side of tent. If you know Akitas, nothing makes them back down.

That was an interesting and terrifying story. I was wondering about the paralyzing factor that people have said they have when they've encountered bigfoot. I was thinking all along that it was just fear that made people not be able to move or scream, or whatever. The shock of seeing something so big and ugly would also be a factor too, plus the unknown. Interesting to say it might be the emf that the bigfoot might have that makes people freeze...

Well fear is pretty good at paralyzing you. A couple of summers ago I was startled awake in the middle of the night by something rattling my pans about at the side of my tent. It felt like I was trying to crawl out from under a tonne of bricks to be able to roll out of the sleeping bag, unzip the flap and shine the flashlight around to see what was happening.... it was a skunk... so just pounded on ground a few times until he got the hint and buggered off. There's been other instances of that, like startled awake by rustling, but in a couple of seconds of ear straining was able to determine it was some small critter moving around in dry brush, and fell straight back to sleep again. Another "tonne of bricks" time was at 3 or 4 AM one night sleeping at home, I was startled by loud machinery noises, vibrations and bright flashing lights... a city street sweeper was pulled up on the sidewalk right outside my first floor window... I have no clue WHY they were operating at that time of night but at 4AM it was frigging loud and frigging bright.... don't know what I thought was happening, house about to get bulldozed, airliner about to land on us, UFO hovering over my house... something like that, but it was like trying to move through molasses to find out what the hell was going on. But have only ever noticed that when I've been startled awake, never noticed that degree of freezing from anything when I was fully awake.

But there are sound "reasons" why freezing is a built in defense mechanism, a lot of predator vision, especially peripheral is triggered on movement. So if you don't move it might not see you. Also if you don't make a noise, it won't hear you, you also get a period of relief from your own noises for your ears to try and interpret the situation.


In any case it would be hard to delineate what are "normal" startle responses to any unusual situation, and what are abnormal due to unusual emanations, such as infrasounds, smell or other...