Me too. I am still very interested in the project but I don't want to sort through the conjecture. I was going to ask for a synopsis every ten pages or every ten minutes, which ever comes first. Who's up for the task? RRS?

No. The family did not in any way make any suggestions of any kind.



Correct SY. And to her credit, after the fact, Angie acknowledged that the "looped" material wasn't anything related to 'bigfoot'. It was a commercially produced sound track (CD) of halloween sounds anyone could buy anywhere.

In other words.

Step #1) Start CD

Step #2) Press "Repeat Track" Button

Step #3) -- track plays to the end and automatically plays again --



But again, no one stated this occured from what we experienced. You were allowed to read between the lines to make that leap of assumption.




Yes, once again make more insinuations and demands you know you aren't going to get so you can look for that "smoking gun". But again, you THOUGHT THAT was what Angie was making a reference to, (created/fake bigfoot sounds) and yet she wasn't. Ask her.



Actually, Angie is dead on... yet continues to call in the course of posting, something she saw, then says she DIDN'T see, a gorilla suit. Several times when we've talked about it with the "land-owner", it was a 'dog-man suit', and sometimes it was a 'troll suit' used at halloween. He called it a lot of different things. I can't tell you WHAT he called it when Drew talked to him. It was a GREEN pair of coveralls with irregular lengths of bailing twine randomly sewn to it with fishing string. The face was a 'deformed ugly' kind of face. The JREF'ers have even gone as far as to say "they had a bigfoot suit"as though it were an established FACT, and yet, YOU didn't say THAT, did you DREW? Who did then? I have a text copy of the closed JREF thread, but as stupid as those posts are, I can only handle reading it a little at a time. See, once again, a lot of "people in the know", DIDN'T know what they were talking about... but rather what they THOUGHT they knew, based on very little time spent finding anything out.

THIS is (next to the attitude of ENTITLEMENT) one of the biggest problems in 'bigfooting' today: People who talk about things they don't fully know about, or reach way out and make complete assumptions about things they've only HEARD that someone else was talking about, then declare that they've apparently found out or deduced with some magical leap of intellect, some "fact". Then someone else picks it up, runs with it, and before you know it, you have a thread like this one with "demands to know" and people talking about facts which don't exist.

Then there's the real persons responsible who hide behind other people whome they get to make their stealthy attacks for them. They're the ones who, for no other reason than wanting to find a reason to embarass, humiliate and try to discredit others, violate people's privacy... create justifications for unethical behavior in claiming they just want "the truth", and spend more time trying to garner the attention spotlight "one more time" so the bigfooting world will stop and take notice of them. You know who they are: they're the ones who from the outset tried to "out" the location, and even openly bragged how they would do everything they could to "prove Jim Flowers is a liar". That's called a 'vendetta', and from these people, I would expect nothing less.

Good thing they didn't disappoint us.





I DO NOT know what the land-owner told you. I DO KNOW however, in talking to the landowner since this has all come up, that in asking him if he ever had an 'actual gorilla suit' and told Drew that he did, he said, "NO. Why would I tell him that? IF I were trying to fake something, WHY would I go and tell him something like that?" -- paraphrased... NOT a direct quote.

Right.


Nope, I never said anything about a Bigfoot suit.
Wolftrax said it once that I know of, but I think it was in Jest http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=522...;postcount=1801


I wouldn't expect him to say anything different.


But you are saying there was indeed a suit, just not a gorilla suit, although he might have called it that, and that you don't know what the owner said to me.

Which thread was that?

RayG

It was not out of jest, if you read the quote I was responding to a poster who said the landowner dressed up like Bigfoot to freak people out, which if you also read in that thread had been a repeated comment. It was called an ape suit, gorilla suit, a bigfoot suit, I did not introduce any of these identifiers but was responding to one of them.

This is taking on new meaning, I want to see one!

Can someone explain to me what a gorilla suit (if there was one) has got to do with the recordings themselves?


It seems to me that the MRP discussion has so many double standards.

I think we can agree that Patterson may well have had a gorilla costume that he used around Yakima, but that doesn't seem to detract from the PGF.

I seem to recall Patterson actually having an office in a touristy spooky ghost town, but that doesn't seem to detract from the PGF or from Patterson and Gimlin's credibility.


Go figure.

The implication here being that one of the supportive reasons for the sounds believed to be from sasquatch by the MI crew is the sightings, and the suit being responsible for the sightings.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole costume thing what you were referring to here?



Or was there something else?

Oh, come on GII. There is no insinuation in that stetement whatsoever. It is simple logic that dictates all of the recordings would be needed to verify if any of the sounds were indeed looped or identical. You have NO IDEA what "I thought", so please don't try to comment on it; instead, I'll just tell you what I thought. What I thought was that it was (and is) entirely possible that some or all of the sounds you've recorded could have been played for you by someone perpetuating a hoax, and that the only way to find any evidence of it would be to examine ALL of the recordings. OK? You keep attacking my questions as if they are some form of attack on YOU, and you are beginning to look as if you have a guilty conscience. I'm simply asking questions and making comments, TRYING TO BE IMPARTIAL, and you're making it harder with every one of your comments.

And this statement sounds extremely worrisome to me as well, if it is taken from the person you have credited with it:

This statement is problematic on a couple of levels.
First, this person seems to have been lying to you when he made this statement, or Drew is lying about what he was told. In all of this mess so far, I have not seen one single inconsistency in any of Drew's statements, nor have I seen any reason for him to lie about any of this (no motivation). But if ANY of the things suspected about this other person are true, there is plenty of motivation for him to lie (to you or anyone else) about these details.
Second, he uses this as logic for his claim: "if I was trying to fake something, why would I tell him something like that?" Do you see the obvious misstep here? If a statement like this was made in, for example, a court of law, the opposing attorney would walk away with a slam dunk. This person is basically STATING that he was trying to fake something, and therefore would never have told Drew about the suit.

I didn't start out asking these questions in search of a "smoking gun" (your term), but you seem to be handing out all the pieces of a gun hoping I won't put it the darn thing together.

This has been said before, but bears repeating:
You MUST CERTAINLY have known questions would have been asked about these recordings and the circumstances under which they were obtained. If those circumstances were questionable, why on earth were any of these recordings made public? And why would you publish them and then refuse to answer questions about them? These refusals ARE ANSWERS, in case you hadn't noticed the way they are being received.

BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

THIS has been our point from DAY ONE Paul. THAT, and all the private, personal family information which everyone else felt they needed to judge the verasity of the recordings.

I can only assume that you understand it didn't originate here, but because of all the people who run back and forth from forum to forum echoing what they're hearing drummed up, it naturally gets brought up here. Just like the freakin' game cam crap. Next they'll want to know how many times we change out underwear while camping 'coz THAT MIGHT be indicitive of a hoaxer, which a few of the group has now been labled in other realms.

Just for the record GII,

Is there any chance someone could have put that thing on and fooled any of the MRP group?

SY.

And when YOU met the landowner, what was your impression of him? OH. Right. You've never met him and don't know him from.... 'whatever'.

I don't know WHAT Drew thinks he 'heard', but for having a mind like a steel trap who can recount all the things he says he CAN, then to turn around and say in regards to the landowner and family, that he DOESN'T even remember the family name or their first names....<?> Hello?

But hey, forget that... his 1/2 day with boots on the ground beats the years any of us have been there anyday.

The reasons why a lot of questions are flying around are, there have been insinuations made of possible hoaxing. Though it says on the MRP website that you have outruled any possible hoaxing (to the best of your ability) things have come out about the LO (things said, or observed) that allude to possible hoaxing of audio, and or sightings. Also I would like to add, to the why the questions... There have been extraordinary claims made. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (one of the principles this forum was founded with) There have been claims posted on the MRP website of not only "interesting audio" that was defended as most likely being from bigfoot. (some of the group members were asked directly what they believed to be making the sounds) There were also claims of "multible sightings" by different witnesses at the location. (also mentioned on the website) There have been claims made of "clear tracks, and trackways" on the website. Yet we are asked not to mention those things, or question it? Please.

Maybe you shouldnt have published those things, if you didnt want it questioned? Your group members have been fairly skeptical of other "extraordinary claims" made by others. Why should you expect it to be any different? I think jimf has even been quoted as saying if they ever made any extraordinary claims to not cut them slack either....

So, perhaps extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence. Perhaps that is why the veracity of the claims are in question, and rightfully so. I dont think anyone here is doing anything but asking the right questions. The group seems to be upset about this though... and perhaps shoudnt have made such bold claims if they werent willing to either back them up, with evidence... or defend their claims in some way. The claims of these things were published publically, and then all of the secret squirrel stuff came....

Thats a decent summary of how we got here. Thats why people are wondering, why no answers to these very basic questions? They do not in any form, "out" the land owner. These questions are also very important when considering the legitimacy of the "audio" even if that is the only thing the group chooses to address. Just dont act surprised or angry.... because people are asking... The claims were made and published by the group. They were made public. no one forced anyones hand on these things. Several things have come into question as possible hoaxing. I think being truthful and open/full clarity is the best policy when issues concerning legitimacy are brought up. If you dont provide that clarity, are you honestly surprised when people percieve this as less than clear, or clouded/convoluted?


This forum was (when the claims were made) and always has been upon these founding principles. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This doesnt exclude the group.

Multible sightings (by different witnesses at the same location)... clear tracks and trackways... (assumed, self described as most likely) bigfoot audio... These are extraordinary claims. Are they not?


How exactly would members of the group treat others making such claims? (and how have they in the past?) Think about that, before getting angry, or expecting anything other than what happened. No one forced the group to release the website and the claims.

Personally, I think knowing details of the landowners is extremely pertinent to the issue. We are being asked to only "analyze" the sounds, but can't know anything else about where they were recorded? To me it's like showing me a picture of a dinosaur in a jungle, and when I ask if it was taken at the Universal Studio tour you tell me I can't ask that question. This has nothing to do with any sort of feelings entitlement, it's just an honest question and means a heck of a lot if you're trying to pass of the pic as a real dinosaur.
Okay. No claims that what has been recorded is BF activity. The sounds are what they are, take it or leave it. Fair enough. I'm leaving it. I never thought they were anything that couldn't have been made by some goofs screaming at the top of their lungs. I call hoax, and I don't care who is doing the hoaxing to whom and how it was done.
I know that means nothing -- I'm a nobody here. Lurked for several years before joining, and haven't posted that much. I did have an open and honest interest in the BF phenomenon, but in the last year or so this forum has steadily worn it down to a skeptical level. I still believe it's possible the animal/creature/whatever could exist, but I'm more doubtful than when I joined this forum. I do know if all of you so-called researchers don't get your acts together and quit all the petty squabbling and the "my crappy evidence is better than your crappy evidence" mentality then you won't be finding a woodchuck much less a BF. I suppose it's time to insert the indignant "What have you done Mr. Nobody?" rebuttal here, so fire away if you wish. But I'm done with the nonsense. Y'all have fun.

Now I'm impressed...how many BF forums online can claim to do this to a member?

It's why I'm still here reading...onward folks...

Gee, I dunno. Maybe because it's still there and I've seen it there for the last several years? Which I've already admitted more than once. The first year of involvement I was still in Florida. What you seem to have missed, is that you seem to think you know everything and everyone involved since that one weekend you spent there, and garnered enough during that time to make an informed judgment about anything hoax or not. Neat trick that is.

Of course from what I've been reading in this thread and elsewhere you have company, so you don't need to feel alone in that regards. It's amazing how far people are willing to speculate with no knowledge and only rumors to fuel their need for something to be real or fake. It really and truly is.

What a rotten shame. This was one of the most interesting subjects to hit this board in a long time, and it went the way of so many other fascinating issues. These people did this research over a period of years, documented their work and presented it to the best BF board on the web, and got repaid with petty, slanderous venom and accusations disguised as "objective" review and analysis.
The people have a willing landowner's privacy violated and not an apology to be found. Justification for breach of privacy made by faulting the researchers for posting a vague map to assist in understanding the material. Shameless nitpicking and unsubstantiated rumors of suits and halloween recordings...
I say shame on everyone involved in undermining this work. Whether the recordings are genuinely BF or not, I highly doubt that these individuals got hoaxed and it is inconceivable to me that they purposely did anything below board...


My .02

simply, knowledge of a gorilla suit would or should raise questions of a hoax, it did in the case of Matt Moneymaker a while back.




Everyone is a nobody until they produce that one body that proves the thing real. The point is, if there was a gorilla suit, all the game cam gone missing stuff, it is relevant because it shows that more was going on than just audio from sources that are 98% likely to be human.

Dude
Read the thread. The supposed suit was some sort of grain sack or something hanging in an outbuilding. Do you people really think that these guys are lying??? That they are covering up that the landowner had a frickin monster suit and was in the woods creeping around? That someone in a cheap gorilla suit staged years and years of occurences here? Do you think that they are lying about going to this place for years and recording these sounds? That someone spent years creeping around in the woods making fake Bigfoot noises and they never got outed???



By most of the logic being presented here, this forum might as well close up shop till a body is found. What is the point of the constant harping about how useless every piece of evidence and every research effort is?

I hope you appreciate that I'm just asking questions to stimulate conversation - I have no real interest in the suit, gorilla or otherwise.



Truth be told, I lost all interest in these recordings when I discovered that we had been lied to about Alton outing the wrong location, when in fact it was the correct location all along.

I understand why we were lied to, but it was still a lie.

I'm waiting for the day when Bubba comes runnin' home yellin', "Pa, look what I hit with the pick-up today"
Then we all could sit back and relax, have afew beers and think about other ways of stabbing eachother

Amen, brother. One thing is for sure, the stabbing will never end. Human nature and all...

So...it was NOT a gorilla suit,

it was NOT a bigfoot suit,

It was a DOG-MAN suit! (with a deformed-ugly face)


I know people are taking this seriously, but that may be the funniest thing I've ever read on this site.

I read all of it, at my convenience.
Based on what I've read, based on lack of knowing some details about the sounds recorded (info not available to outsiders for whatever reasons), my opinion is that more than likely at least some of it is a hoax.
I base that on a few principals that have been a foundation for questioning evidence and seeking facts here for years, 1 being the primary principal of ruling out all of the more likely answers before anything else, (something that ironically was preached to me recently in the vanished skier topic ).
I don't have any reason to believe that those who are researching there or presenting any of this here are responsible for it though.

A big thing that has stood out in my mind at least, is the fact that there's a condition that the researchers must be unarmed. Draw conclusions for yourselves but that sort of jumps out at me, but that's just me.
That's only my thought but that and a few other comments, accusations, are enough to taint the evidence in my opinion, at least without any further evidence to consider and some unanswered questions (a big key ? being are there really residences that close to so much of this activity).

Insert personal beliefs and opinions about sasquatch, combined with the those thoughts and that's my basis for those conclusions..........

Click to view attachment

Is this the LO?

If you were going to allow people to utilize your propery at will, at any time, you would have no problem with allowing them to bring guns? Who in their right mind would allow that? Does this place sound like it's a private hunting preserve? There is a family living on the property for crying out loud.

Situational, but in a lot of situations, I wouldn't have any problems with it at all myself.

Yeah, 'cause that's what this thread needs - more stimulation...

JimF

So After reading what is said here about what has happen between the whole group in whole ,It seem like you actually believe that yes you have these creatures visiting this area.Now is this true? I have nothing against none of you and yes i wish that you could put more info out on what is going on there but you all have your reasons and that is fine with me.

I think that you all have done a great job and what matters is that you get to the truth about these creatures.I think that getting to the truth is the most important espect of research.Whether the sounds were done by humans or it be done by these creatures.When you guys are ready i am sure that you will report your findings.I hope that things are well in your further investigations and that you learn the truth about these creatures.

Well, Mark. I don't think at this point that except for a few people were going to divulge everything anytime soon. Particularly not anything evidential in nature. Just from what I've read in this thread, the other one here and when I perused JREF earlier, quite frankly, I fail to see what anyone here ( with a few exceptions) has done to earn our trust to do so.

Matter of fact, just about the opposite has taken place for the most part., Especially on JREF where most of the unfounded rumors seem stem from due to a few people who know who they are, though it seems not many know what they are, or why they even have any involvement in anything to do with Bigfoot other than to try and inflate their own sense of self worth by putting themselves in a limelight that they cannot get in the really real world, outside of what is considered a fringe science at best.

Comments like this do not help.
Do you really understand Paul? I don't think so.
For one thing nowhere have I said anything to either deny or confirm that it was the actual location.

For thing number two ( Not to be too Seussian) given the fact that the landowner and some of his relatives have been harassed, lied to by third parties, (You Kevin Rogers, a false name, we do know who you really are though,where you live etc etc. keep that in mind) and threatened with exposure by said unscrupulous parties. Is that how you would see a witnesses whose confidentiality/anonymity we tried to protect as something done wrong by us? Or any witnesses right to such handled, other than by circumstances of their own making?

Not the first time it's happened either. There are several precedents in this alleged "field of study" already. Several of them on this very forum. But no, the Bigfrickenfoot "community" just has every right to know is that it?

I've been wondering what my last straw with this crap would be. Now I know. have fun and as far as I'm concerned you can do exactly what they did on JREF and continue for page upon page without input or acknowledgment by the people who are actually there doing to field work. let the conjecture keep going because I am done with it.

Wow jimf... way to expose someones full name on the internet. Ironic?

Pretty funny if you ask me. But probably not funny to Kevin, or the LO that people have their name etc. ;-) Oh wait, its a fake name. Anyways.... I'm not about to expose anyones name, or "out" any location. But there have been a lot of valid points mentioned that you would've been mentioning yourself had anyone else made the very same claims. (of course that is pure speculation too.... much like a lot of this secret squirrel stuff goes) haha. I'm gonna just sit back now, and hope that some good comes of this. Maybe some truth, and that no land owners or otherwise are "outted" because someones determined to better someone else online. Just looking for truth about claims man. What a concept.

It would be ashamed to "out" peoples real names... especially if they may have duped anyone in some way shape or form. But thats not allowed here. Is it.

Being nuetral in all this, I just have one question,
Is this how all potential findings end up? I've been here for abit and it seems like everytime a bit of evidence is brought up, it gets chewed, swallowed and spit up. Some may deserve it, but come on folks, it's no wonder there has'nt been anything positive come out of this field. I have to agree with Squonksquach, what has been happing here lately is making think that this whole subject is a joke.
As far as I knew it, there's no BF trophy to be won, no 1st place foot print casts or best wood knock call........ We are all here for answers and 'till the day comes when ALL work for this common goal, well, sassy ain't got no worries in the world, 'cause the big bad humans are too busy screwing eachother to come together and find me. It's a shame. JMHO
Jim, hope your absence isn't final

Ok, I guess I can't fault you for feeling that way. (Jim)

Since there isn't going to be any more info forthcoming, opinions will have to be based on what we have so far.

First off, I felt (and still feel) that the attempts to out the location were dispicable. Confidentiality on this subject was asked for, and yet the supposed location (which did not need to be made public) was posted in several locations. I still feel this act is unforgivable. All of the information that has come out about the activity at the location could have been discussed without publicly posting the coordinates, the street names, the names of involved parties, etc.

Second, with respect to the sounds: I felt from the beginning that the screams were human and still feel that way. All of the innuendo, gossip and accusations help bolster that opinion. The other sounds have always seemed similar to the Sierra Sounds, and again, the information presented and/or withheld since the beginning makes me think they are also of human origin.

The other info that has been posted (and not refuted) leads me to believe that hoaxing was involved. I do not feel the researchers were complicit in a hoax, and I have never suspected the group of taking part in a hoax. I might go so far as to say the group may have tried to downplay the (known) possibility of hoaxing, or even that the group may have been in denial about it. But I do not think they knowingly participated in any sort of hoaxing activity.

And, regardless of these opinions stated above, I have seen no evidence to prove that there is not activity at this site. Unfortunately, I have also seen no evidence to support the possibility of activity at the site.

S.

Hi

You can take that up with me in PM if you like, I did ok the post and don't see what it has to do with this thread at all ?

Peace
Tim

Oh give me a break. Sorry, but that comparison is just ridiculous. If you have something to say about it, take RRS advice and take it up via PM.

Not neccesarily saying the situations are the same. (nor do I think its "ok" on either account for the record) Lets take a look at that. Longtabber didnt cost anyone any type of money by his antics. He may have made a fool of himself, or embarrassed himself... but the damage done is to himself. Lets take a look at this situation should it turn out to be a hoax. How many hundreds of dollars exactly traveling (gii, and others) how much lost on expenses for say, trail cams... get where I'm going with this? Not to mention time spent there over 5 years of research.


Yeah, they arent really comparable. One guy made a fool out himself, and maybe another guy, who remains nameless may have made a fool out of many, otherwise fine people. Who exactly cost who the most? how much money do you think went into this project? How much time? This would be comparable I think. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, I'm just asking for the truth and asking the group to back up the claims they have publically made. (as per request, even by jimf)



So, do I think outtting anyone is really cool? No... but in some cases more people were effected than others. Get where I'm coming from with this? I'm pretty much done here since no other questions will be addressed. I'm glad that questions were asked, and sometimes answered, but mostly not. At least the right questions were asked, and everyone was given a chance to substantiate claims they publically made. Good luck with your future findings and project.


and wow. ;-)

And how, pray tell, does anything the MI group spent ($$ wise) affect you, or me? I'll bet you, if you think it's all been a hoax, the MI group will be more than happy to take your money to make up for their (in your opinion) loss. Good grief, I'll bet none of these people involved in the MI project have spent money they didn't want to toward this.

No, I don't get where you're coming from RR. There's a very good chance that someone came to this forum and took LE at his word, and took his advice over some aspect of their life...since he seemed to be an expert in many things. (Fooled us, huh?) The damage wasn't necessarily only done to himself. If you can't see the difference between the two....

Many, many years ago, 1976 to be exact, there was a documentary program regarding the "Sierra Sounds" recordings. Now, I'm fully aware that many consider the "Sierra Sounds" to be either fake or recordings of known animals, that's irrelevant to my point. In the documentary, it was indicated the typical male vocal tract is 17 cm, but whatever made the "Sierra Sounds" had a vocal tract length of 25 cm. This particular statement was picked up on and further experts confirmed this non-human vocal tract length feature of the recordings. Later, Grover Krantz refuted this by indicating that a researcher asked one of these experts if the same affect could be achieved by cupping the hands over one's mouth and the answer was 'yes'.

With all due respect to Grover Krantz, his comment has been picked up by others as evidence in the "hoaxing camp" side of the debate. That's sad because the experts analyzing the recordings had spent a year analyzing the recordings and made public statements that they thought the recordings were non-human, yet based on one simple question that justified their stance, many threw out the real research done to call 'hoax'. I'm seeing something similar happening with the MRP project.

The experts analyzing the "Sierra Sounds" recordings didn't base their findings on a single piece of evidence. It was a combination of factors that led them to conclude "non-human." And their conclusions didn't include analysis of track finds, hair analysis, fake boots, gorilla suits, who was present/not present, GPS coordinates or any of those external factors.

I'm going to present my own 'secret-squirrel' innuendo - unless someone was very knowledgeable in the area of purported bigfoot vocalizations, I don't think it would occur to a human hoaxer to replicate one of those other analytical issues. So, others can say that the MRP recordings sound like they could have been made by a human, I think a human would have tripped up somewhere along the line in the 5+ years that the MRP group were on site and done something that was never done in any of the recordings presented on the website.

Based on what I know of the situation, I think those who are trying to point to a hoax are giving the LO and/or family A LOT of credit as hoaxers (such as we've never seen before, with perhaps the exception of the PGF, if that is in fact a hoax) and for me the evidence of that is in the recordings themselves, not in any of the peripheral questions/accusations/innuendo being floated here.

As a matter of conscience for all the paranoid-I'll-believe-in-something-that's-a-hoax crowd, I'm uncertain whether I should even state plainly what I'm talking about because it could make it easier down the road for other would-be hoaxers then. It's especially difficult for me because it isn't something that will authoritatively indicate these recordings are or are not bigfoot...just that there is a strong probability that they are, in fact, non-human.

How ironic that I came to make my final post in this thread and see that Jim has also done the same.

First I have to respond to the post by Vol. I apologize for the bad spelling. I have always had a problem with the spelling of the word lying. Sometimes I spell it right, especially when I reread it before hitting the add reply button. For some reason I usually spell it lieing the first time. I also have trouble with dieing or is it dying? Two different meanings there. It was an honest mistake on my part, the misspelling. Seems the older I get the more susceptable I am to misspelling words. Go figure. I have no one coaching me about anything and have no idea who you are referring to when you suggest that I do. I have no contact with anyone in the BF community. If I did, it would have been the MI group and obviously that hasnt been happening. This is the only forum I check anymore and that not very often.

Moving on...

When I happened upon the first thread, it was at page 42. It took me four days to read it. It all started out fine. The intro page was fair and clear. The group was not declaring these recordings to be BF, they just wanted some feedback on them. Well, as the thread progressed, it slowly turned into the recordings were BF. That is when my conscience started bothering me. I started reminescing and going over and over again in my head all the different reasons that I believed at least some of the recordings had to be hoaxed. Many, many things came to me and created a whole picture in my mind of how a hoax could have happened. I have not related even half of my reasoning here or to the group. I tried to establish communication but to no avail.

If you read the other thread, I started posting around the beginning of Sept. I dont believe I "lost" it a little until some time in Oct. I'll admit that I do believe that some posts caused me to react and some did give me a "bad taste in my mouth". But other posts made me think that I was at least doing the right thing.

I never meant to publicly humiliate the group nor am I looking for attention. My heart has been broken from losing some very good friends. Outsiders dont realize what I have been through with some of these members. The research we did together, the pictures I have of us, the experiences and times that we shared with each other. I used to look back on it all with happiness, now it is shrouded with sadness...friends lost.

Would I do it all over again? Maybe. You see, BF is a subject that is very important to me. It is not a "what if" subject. It is a definite. I will lose my friends if need be to try to save them from being at least partially hoaxed.

I would not have started posting for frivolous reasons. I have strong feelings here. I am 99.9% positive that everything is not on the up and up here. Not towards the group though.

I have not been able to get to the point of explaining more of how I think the group could have been hoaxed. I cant seem to get past relaying all my reasons that one is being perpetrated.

Obviously there has been some nasty business going on before I arrived on scene. I do not know all the details about this but have managed to pick up some of it in the posts that I read. I did visit the JREF forum (never knew it existed before), to see what some of the hubub was about. There was some thread that was started about the MI group. I did not like the title of it. Seems the original was closed and you have to be a member to view it. I have no interest in becoming a member of that forum so Im left in the dark.

I can only speculate that this previous stuff is why I have been given so much grief from many different sources. Looks like I picked a very bad time to stumble across this and an even worse to voice my concerns. No help for that now. Whats done is done.

If I leave this where it is now, I just want the MI group to know a few more things.

I never claimed to know everything about your research. I only know what I know. You claim that you have other experiences besides the vocals. I will not undermine those and claim that they are a hoax. I am only referring to the vocal recordings, not even all of them. I dont believe that I have listened to them all. But, I do believe that the vocals that I heard while on site were hoaxed. I also believe that the incident that you have posted with Pat and Mike (?) is hoaxed as well.

If you have other undeniable evidence, that is great but dont assume because of that evidence, that the vocals are BF as well.

I have stated to Jim in this thread that I spent a good part of my life in this area. Paul knows this as well, if he remembers. I do believe that I had BF activity during that time. This is information that I keep to myself. It is for my personal use only. My point is, you may very well have BF activity on your site, its just not the vocals I mentioned, maybe others, I havent listened to them all. I do believe that BFs are curious creatures and if any were in the area at the time, I'm sure they would have been curious as to what all the ruckus was about too.

I did try to get to some of this info previously but my questions were disregarded. I'll attribute the groups behaviors to some of my hasty and reactive posting as well as to the bullshit that you had to endure before I came along.

I wish you all the best of luck. Stay alert and, as you could have done all along, PM me if you feel a need. Just not accidentally, please.

Angie

P.S. Forgive the punctuation and spelling, I dont have a coach

Really? I think that is great because I've had all of your BS I can stomach.

You know Griz, that was really about the extent of it to me also. The vocals were not like any purported others and not like any I've heard that I consider possible, but I'm one who suspects a huge range in what bigfoots could bigmouth. So without more substance, they could be nothing but inconclusive. But that's why some people were digging for more on which to substantiate or eliminate them. That's fair and only to be expected. Although some other people have their own less-than-noble intentions, motivations and animosities and have carved their reputations even further in stone. But I still appreciate the Michigan crew sharing what they have, as always, for better and for worse. Slings and arrows.

Some of the anger and snarkiness in responses, while sometimes understandable, doesn't help and has, in past examples here, been labeled defensiveness and evidence of supposed guilt, allegedly, if consistency in standards applies. Oh, and by the way, this can never be at issue if you just go commando.

You wouldn't want anyone just to accept or just to believe now, would you? It's all here- questions, answers, believers, meanieheads, romantics, skeptics, scoftics, antagonists; shoe other foot; perspective.

Yes and no. This and they also got more praise than anyone has ever gotten for anything here. It's been a heckuva roller-coaster ride, lots of plot twists, and entertaining if you really have no personal investment in the matter, and nothing else has been going on. We're all here, aren't we? There has been fair review and analysis. Investigation and the pursuit of truth is not shame-worthy, regardless of and despite relationships, although the behavior of some has absolutely been shameful and shameless. It's all here. Wherever this ends up going, it's quite a chapter.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

When I go where I think there is good reason to believe that there might be a 8' tall 500 lb. screaming sasquatch, I usually have a gun with me. And munchies. Usually. Not always. It's not as black and white as you might think at first thought and could be a legitimate point. I can see both perspectives and this point, as just one in example, should not necessarily be decisive either way.

Ain't it the truth.
That's an unfortunate spot to find yourself in, I totally understand and agree.
Back away if you must but don't go anywhere. You'll get through this.

From what we know, or think we know, all things considered, I think this is a fair and reasonable position at this point.

Well... he may have cost me up to a million dollars!... or at least the potential satisfaction of allowing the good people of the BFF to decide between he and I, and rubbing his nose in his own stupendous ego... And damn Joe, despite our skirmishes, I still pulled for you, but your delusions of grandeur secured your spot- pride before the fall.
I hope that's not the case, but that's been the nagging thought in the back of my mind for awhile.


Unfortunately, the one consistency I have observed in the last 7 years is that once again this "community" is yet even more fractured. Does everyone hate everyone else yet? It looks like it's going to take something big to get everybody's undivided attention directed on something much more substantive and significant. Fortunately, it's coming and doesn't require Bill's asking. Stay tuned Marvin.

For some time now I have lamented the fact that major issues are often overlooked while many
unsubstaniated ones are taken into consideration. What the people here feel personally or
care are major issues vary from person to person. It is brought to the table, but believers
kick the can down the alley.

Yet another labored year has come and gone without the major evidence needed to convince even
one scientific body to invest any real effort or funding into this subject. In spite of this,
unilateral indignation occurs far too often. I've truly said my peace.













Dont forget to read between the lines, like in all things bigfoot.

What are some "major" issues that you feel have been overlooked or neglected?? Why should anything brought to the board and not considered?

RR - you take the same tact in every thread you post on. Tear apart the subject matter with constant insinuations that "proper scientific methods" aren't followed or the subject matter doesn't constitute "real" evidence. Nothing but never-ending, aggravating, repeating nitpicking. Have you ever brought anything interesting to the table yourself? Maybe you have somewhere, but I don't remember seeing it...

You also have a habit of saying that you're done posting on a subject, and then coming back over and over and over and over again...

Could we be civil here and respect other posters' rights to disagree?

They presented *some* of their work. That's some of the problem.

Meaning what? That the parts they didn't present might be covering up hoaxing or would cast doubt on the work as a whole?

So maybe they just picked out the "good" stuff and left out the recordings where they yell; "Caught you! you scoundrels.", and "Damn, Pat, It WAS the neighbor wearing a gorilla suit after all!!"

actually there seems enough there to seriously what we do know. The claims of the maps not being of the original sites seems to be false, just to begin with.