Irrelevant.



If he were, it should have been easy to find him. He couldn't have gotten far. Yet exhaustive searches turned up NOTHING.



Obviously the area was not "trackable" enough to produce a line of tracks that would have led to the lost skier, so it is no stretch at all to surmise that any additional presences could pass without leaving tracks.




Your suppositions do not jive with the direct testimony of those involved that something very wrong happened on that mountain side.

Being diabetic was irrelevent? Not true at all especially given the type of care available to diabetics in 1950.

My suppositions are based on experiences from a member of the party and newspaper articles posted at the time of the disappearance. You are basing your assumptions on one article from a guy who got the heebie jeebies and Urban Legends.

I know it's hard to let old stories go, but in this case the facts are clear and there is no FACTUAL evidence that bigfoot had anything to do with the tragedy.

The diabetes puts a whole new slant on this story. As a diabetic, I can tell you going hypoglycemic is a very dire, attention getting problem. You must act fast to prevent the problem from getting out of control. It can literally become a matter of life and death within a few short minutes sometimes, depending on the severity of the condition.
As an example, my vision begins going out on me as a rapidly growing red spot(s) begins to curtail my range of vision. It starts dead center of my range of vision and spreads outward from there. I've found myself tripping over furniture I can't see trying to get to the kitchen before unconsciousness overtakes me. This is in my own house where I know where everything is. You can and do get panicked sometimes because your body gets weak and shaky so fast. It feels like you are dying. And, it's different for most everyone who experiences it. I begin showing initial signs of hypoglycemia if my glucose level goes to 73 and lower. And from there, it starts dropping fast when I'm physically active.
That in itself could have caused the man to become panicked and make some not so wise decisions.

I realize this reads as something almost melodramatic, but, it is how hypoglycemia affects me. Imagine if something like that happens on a mountain and help is not near. This guy could have made the huge mistake of not having the right meds or food stuff on him. Hypoglycemia often strikes while doing physically demanding tasks. Skiing looks like it might fill that bill pretty well. I have no idea because I've never been skiing before. So, please forgive if I'm wrong about that.

My statements are based on the statements of SEVERAL members of that party and the article for which they were interviewed that reported THEIR conclusion "the apes got him".

Are you prepared to call the professional skiers, mountaineers, etc named in the report incompetent or lying?




I'm also diabetic and well aware of the dangers of hypo (and hyper) glycemia. The point is that if he had been incapacitated by a diabetic emergency he could not have gotten all that far. The search teams found NO trace of him. NONE. Being professionals, they would have taken any medical states he might have been in into consideration. Nontheless, THEY are the ones who posited BF as the only solution to the dilemma they could come up with.

Hi

~ Are you prepared to call the professional skiers, mountaineers, etc named in the report incompetent or lying?




Peace
Tim

How come when Red uses someone involved it's "experiences from a member of the party", but when Mulder does the exact same thing it's "from a guy who got the heebie jeebies"?

For what it's worth, regarding the weather at the time, it was clear and very warm for that time of year in the NW, according to the Farmer's Almanac.

http://www.almanac.com/weather/history/OR/...land/1950-05-22

I'm guessing at the 8000' level it may have been in the 40's on the day of the disappearance and possibly in the 60's in the days after with clear sky. I don't think anyone's or anything's tracks were covered by weather, but perhaps melted away fairly quickly.

Has anyone tried contacting the searchers so we can acuse them of lying, I'm sure a few of the 75 are still kicking!

Good point. Try reading the articles and making your own decision. The guy interviewed in the article mentioned by Mulder puts a lot of emotion and feeling into the story. He also leaves out important facts that were stated in the newspaper articles at the time of the incident as well as the bio I posted. Leaving out these facts gives insight into the man's intentions.

The bio that I posted was very cut and dry, no emotion. Just the facts. The newspaper articles were from the time of the incident.

Read them for yourself and make up your own mind.

edited to add that the article mentioned by Mulder has one man speaking for the "professional skiers, mountaineers".




That is a really good idea.

Bold by Mike U.


He might have gotten further than you or I might have. Some folks get early warning signs sooner than others of an onset of hypoglycemia. He could very well have skiied right off that cliff when his vision became compromised and/or he reached a state of consciousness which compromised his reaction speed or ability to make rational decisions. No one knows for certain. Not enough evidence to do anything other than postulate. IMO, it's pretty much open season for postulating on how he met his end.
You may not be wrong. Others may not be wrong. May not be right, either. It may remain a mystery forevermore and all we're left with is postulation.

He is a professional mountaineer. His perceptions, his deductions, even his "feelings" come from vast experience in the wild. It was HIS conclusion, agreed to by other professionals who had participated in the search, that something VERY VERY WRONG happened on that mountainside. THEIR conclusion was "the apes got him". Not mine...THEIRS.



So what, does that disprove the testimony of those who participated in the search?





Speaking for several who also came to that conclusion.




The "guy" was a professional mountaineer who was PART of the S&R team. His experienced opinion was that something VERY wrong happened on that mountainside. I give his professional opinion far more weight than I do that of anyone on this board.

I remember this movie.
Wasn't it called Snow Beast?

The guy who's bio stated facts was also a professional. Let's face it, you believe that sasquatch got this guy and you will not take other evidence into consideration since it contradicts your belief in the story.

I am not going to change your mind, you will certainly not change mine. I posted the information, others have chimed in with personal experiences....they can make up their own minds.

I hope to look into more newspaper articles from this incident when I can get to a library computer. It takes forever and a day to download those articles at home.

Redwolf

forgot about that movie. Scary stuff for a kid back then.

...except for one big, glaring problem:

One man stated, "the apes must have got him." But he provided no evidence, or mention of any evidence that would support this conclusion. How did he come to it? Experienced mountaineer or not, his opinion about it (based solely on his statements) is unfounded. Mulder, I agree that something very wrong happened on that mountain, but there is no evidence or mention of any evidence regarding a BF connection. By his own words, in the absence of a good explanation he simply came to the conclusion that "the apes must have got him". So, because he came to this unsupported conclusion, does this mean that we should too?

It's that ONE PHRASE that likely got this whole thing going in the first place. This would be NO DIFFERENT if the guy had said, "the bears must have got him." All of the same phenomenon could be used to support it (feeling watched/stalked, skier appears to be running from something, body never found, etc.). It all fits with grizzly behavior as well. But here we all sit arguing about it because he said "apes", and because of the history of reports in the area.

Here's a question for those who believe "the apes got him": WHY? Why would they attack an unarmed man? Any explanations? I have not read or heard of any other skier ever being attacked or intimidated by a BF. So why this time? Skiers are no threat unless they have weapons, right? So why THIS TIME?

The whole thing is an enormous collection of unanswered questions, and almost every conclusion anyone can come to is UNFOUNDED. In the absence of abundant factual evidence, it's a good idea to either forget about it altogether, or try to paint a picture of what was MOST LIKELY to have happened. And the diabetes is the first step in that direction.

Hi


~ I am not going to change your mind, you will certainly not change mine. ~

There better not be a rule against this sort of truthfulness cause if there is i see a warning being handed out . . .

Peace
Tim

A bear could just as easily have gotten him which is more likely than an ape. If he passed out unconscious they could have eaten him too. In recent years even the black bears which are considered somewhat docile have been found to completely devour a person for reasons unknown. There was a little girl in Tenn a few years ago that was entirely consumed and they never figured out what brought on the attack.

I believe in BF too, but just because some mountaineers claim the "apes got him" doesn't make it any more believable especially since they never saw the apes get him. Too many jumping to wild conclusions when other things are more probable to have caused his disappearance besides BF. Maybe he made an enemy who shot him on some lonely trail and buried him. Maybe he was abducted by someone. Maybe he chose to "disappear". Considering the lack of knowledge of people in the 1950's I won't believe just because someone said it was a BF that is was especially if they had no hair samples or tracks to analyze and no way of analyzing them back then. There's absolutely no proof as to what happen to him.

I'm with the others throwing in the common sense angle. Work from the most possible or probable culprit and down to the least likely is my opinion. More people are killed by people than are ever killed by animals but animals known to exist rank way higher up on my list than something unproven to exist.

Working on the BF angle first is like saying Santa Claus got him in my humble opinion. Yep, this is a BF board but again in my opinion we should all think logically before concluding a BF is the guilty party just because we're on a BF forum, or because a bigfoot enthusiast who works as S&R said "the apes got him."

He's sitting in Baja, mai tai in one hand, sexy babe in the other.........damn, I need to disappear!

As I posted earlier, I've had type 1 diabetes for over 40 years and I really have to go with a potentially low blood sugar level for his most urgent of problems on his list that day. To me, the most bizarre thing is that they never found him or any trace of his body. Whether or not BF or any other creature had anything to do with him after his accident and possible loss of consciousness will obviously remain a mystery forever.

I am, for the most part a responsible diabetic and treat my disease with the respect it deserves and am now, at my age, forced to listen to my body and be aware of any shift in the sugar seas. Assuming this guy was at the very least as responsible is no guarantee that we didn't loose yet another good diabetic to something as simple as too much insulin and too few carbohydrates. There is however reason to believe, that something amiss might have befallen him after what ever took him down, took him down. One thing I'm fairly certain of is this, after you loose yourself in the quagmire of 50 to 70 on the blood sugar scale, you may stumble and unconsciously seek help but after only a few minuets, your **** is in the dirt and you'll succumb to what ever environment you fell down in, end of story. After that, though you may make a sound or three, you're not getting back up and walking anywhere.

To me the most puzzling question is where could a guy apparently partially disabled from whatever spill he took and also possibly in shock from that and again possibly suffering the results of a quickly deteriorating blood sugar level go where so many experienced search and rescue people could find neither hide nor hair of him?

From a diabetics point of view, I doubt he made it very far if this was the case...or cases. JMO

Cheers

The diabetic theories make a lot of sense. (as to the whys) You'd certainly be burning a lot of calories on a climb like that. That could certainly explain any irrational behaviour. Especially if he started getting those warning signs. He knew he had to make it out fast. That would explain a lot of the circumstances. Also would explain why he may have not made it out of there. Could've easily passed out and fallen, or just picked the wrong crack to try and cross. All we can do is learn from it. A good story to remember when you're trekking it alone. (usually a bad idea, as i plan for a hike alone heh.) Be careful out there folks, and try to prepare for any ultimates that you can forsee.

Great research on the story done in this thread.

Now theres some wild speculation right there. How does BF know the difference between a "weapon" and lets say a ski pole? If we follow this logic, then there should be no hunters alive who have seen BF while hunting. Granted, it may have some degree of intelligence but I don't think it's going to have intimate knowledge of human tools. IT"S JUST AN ANIMAL.



It never said he was a BF enthusiast.

You can't just say "What? Diabetes . . . problem solved" any more than you can say "the apes must have gotten him". You don't know unless somebody saw it happen. I'm going to believe the people that were there at the time of this incident. They were professional members of a mountain rescue unit who were at the spot of this guys disappearance for a considerable amount of time. You can't just ignore that and say they were crazy. If they said Carter disappeared under circumstances in which he should have been found (such as a body) and wasn't, and they felt strange and uncomfortable in that area . . . then I've got to believe them. Lee and the others SPECULATED that the apes had him. This means they didn't know for sure what happened to him any more than we do.

Very well said King.

once again maybe we are missing the point of where this was supposed to have taken place....and the year when it happened.........it looks like its might be a place where the big guys dont like us little puny humans around............now maybe they wouldnt attack a 20 person party..but a lone guy off on his own? what do predators do? single out the weak , sick, old and young from the pack...hmmm............any way, check out chapter 2 , might help things a little, might not.....

but from my vantage point, this area has a history , rather make that had a history of the big guys not wanting us around.........I forgot where I read it, but I think the NA peeps left this area and spirit lake well enough alone.........

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/classics/beck.html

Ok, this is a good point Mark-
Some folks in this thread seem to think that because some others are talking common sense, that we don't believe the entire collection of circumstances surrounding the story. This is a FALLACY.

We are aware that there is a long history of reported activity in the area along with native legends to support the claims. But there is simply NO CONNECTION between the history and the event. It's the same as saying, "a guy walked into the everglades and was never found. The 'gators must have got him." There is nothing to support a claim like this. There are too many other possible explanations.

Hey, In in no way saying that something other than a sprained ankle and his diabetes didn't get to him before the elements or whatever else might have happened! Nor do I have a problem speculating on whether or not BF had anything to do with his demise and I more than agree with you that there seems to have been a history of these creatures and their sometimes menacing attitude towards human beings in this area.

All I'm saying is that...no matter how much ardent googleing is put into this particular incident, from either side of the argument, nothing by way of anything absolute will ever come out of this. Unless of course if a member of the search party was to surface. In which case, whatever his opinion was...the other side would, more than likely, lay waste to his entire point of view and begin picking apart whatever he had to say, depending of course on theirs. This is as silly as it is futile, for every one yay..there is a nay. It's as much in vain as arguing politics in a dingy bar.

Cheers

Does anyone know if there was a river in the area? Could he have fallen in, then been pulled under by the current and carried downstream? That could make a body vanish particularly if they didn't search a wide area.

Possible, only if Ape Canyon was flooded with snow melt. Dogs Head where they were skiing and where I believe Carter stopped to take a photo still shows up on Google Earth, at 8000' (right at the eastern edge of the crater). Where Ape Canyon now starts is at about 4000', and the stream below (I believe the Clearwater River or a tributary) is at about 1700'. As you can see he must have frantically skied down a 4000' drop before he hit the Canyon. Be it diabetes, bigfoot or other it's quite a risky maneuver!

Ape Canyon is right below Pumice Butte BTW.....

Click to view attachment

I find it interesting some rescuers had bad vibes while searching the area. Preconceived notions?

Not sure. I elk hunted just east of Ape Canyon a few years back and the only bad vibes I got were from climbing over the blow downs and the steep canyons down to the Clearwater. It was a little spooky in the old growth though, but I attribute that to knowing I was only 8 miles from a volcano

If you consider the year this happened which I believe was 1950 or so, the thought of going in and looking for or expecting to see BF while your goal is a friend and hiker seems a bit of a stretch. BF was hardly as popular back than as it is today, I would imagine anyway.

Cheers

What I don't understand about the story is if he was with a group of people in a remote area and is a known diabetic, why did the rest of the group let him get seperated and out of sight? Common sense would be you would have a buddy system and if your buddy was lagging behind you would stop and wait for him to catch up. And being he was a known diabetic and his friends knew he was a diabetic they would have been more cautious and wait for him and check on his situation when he started to lag behind in the first place.. It is only human nature to do that. Something just don't add up.

CO Grizzly reported about the death/disappearance of the ski trooper at Camp Hale in the 40s. That's one. Not that being on skis is apparently a requisite for attracting agressive bx from a sasquatch, as there are many other examples out there. The IBS used to have scores of them, but it's been taken down.

Yet the region had a history that the locals were well aware of of agressive "ape men" in the area.

Oh I agree Mulder! There are actually few places in the US that have more of a history than this area. If you look at the context of my reply though, I was referring to the thought that maybe the search and rescue people went in with preconceived notions. Which I took to mean that maybe they were just scarring themselves with the history of the place.

Cheers

Agreed.

I'd say "the apes got him" argument has hit the dirt.

Excellent work, Redwolf.

I also agree.

Excellent research Redwolf!

Except that the people there AT THE TIME, and TAKING ALL THAT INTO ACCOUNT, still couldn't come up with a better explanation than "the apes got him". I'll take the conclusion of those on the scene contemporary to the event over a BFF "skeptic", thank you very much.




Redwolf's research reminds me of Shakespeare: "Full of sound and fury, and signifying NOTHING..."

Yes, Mulder, if you accept the possible theory of the searchers who were there at the time, you are 100% wrong, and you can hit the dirt. But if you throw that theory out and accept ANY OTHER fate, you are 100% correct in your assumption. The key word is assumption. I don't think you can throw dirt on that word, can you?

How bout cause he tastes like chicken....

where is the article that states all this? you havent posted a link.........
if only a pilot saw tracks couldnt it be possible that they were BF tracks? as they were only visible from the air?..............

a link doesn't take to long even on dial up these days.......

Im not saying that it was bf, diabetes, goblins, nessie, or anything else, but judging from the response of the searchers, they seemed to think the apes got him...............

one of these searchers was an everest guy, so I am quite sure he knew of the yeti back then.....and if any locals were part of the search, I'm quite sure they all knew of the Fred Beck incident, even from 1924.........

another aspect is the reporter himself, instead of saying the apes must have got him , the guy might have said, "maybe the apes got him" starting this whole thing, lol........

co grizzly, I found some wonderful old tapes of camp hale on youtube.... enjoy

they are labeled 1 -11, real interesting stuff...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQcv-mbq5Mw...feature=related

I dont see where exactly mulder states that he believes that sassy got this guy, he has constantly stated that it is the thoughts of the SEARCHERS that
'the apes" might have either frightened or even abducted this lone skier............

If any BF lived through Mt. St. Helen's eruptions, they'd really be pssd.

I posted those articles a few pages back.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?sho...7953&st=165

See posts #171, 178, and 185

You're fighting an uphill battle in this thread Red.

Your research shows that this event was nothing more than a combination of bad luck and the normal dangers of skiing in treacherous terrain. However, it destroys a popular myth and will therefore be fought by those who are interested in stories - not the truth.

No kidding. Some people are acting like kids who find out the truth behind Santa Claus.

I particularly enjoyed:



Those articles were very significant, but only to those who wants to find facts on the incident. To someone who wants to keep believing in urban legends, they do indeed:

I doubt if the "apes got him", more than likely it was the diabetis or an skiing injury. But if the apes did get him it could be the same reason a dog will chase a car... he was a moving object that warrants chasing.

Hmmm...good point. Predators do tend to give chase after something they may perceive as a prey animal moving away from them. Cats are a fine example of that.

Just re-reading Sasquatch/Bigfoot by Hunter/Dahinden... I think it's their "fault" that this incident got recognition or notoriety since they out an account of it early in the book right next to the classic ape canyon tale as another example of an incident in that area.