So I have been thinking about this. Just wondering if a body or a living BF were discovered Who is Science and what happens then. Does the government step in and take over and suppress the whole thing? You know to avoid a war of the worlds scenario. To put off pandamonium and the like.

There have been several "I have a bigfoot body" stories in the last few years. My science fiction brain always wonders if maybe they do and then they get a interviening hand that stops it and suddenly there is a gorilla costume in the block of ice. Certainly it is more logical and human to believe that the gorilla costume was all that they had in the first place. However that brings up the question that is constantly posed.......Proven By Science!

No I am not trying to start a conspiricy theory, I don't want any of those kinds of answers either. I just want to know what everyone here thinks would (1) Prove it in the name of Science. And (2) what those things might entail.

With the declaration that no new species would be found in this era and then several coming into the light. Yet many distingushed names in the scientific community scoffing at the ones that still searched and forcing yet many others to abandon their searches in favor of their reputations......Who is science? the person that swears that there is NO chance that there is a great american ape, or the desk jockey government worker that studied zoology in college. Or the BFRO?


So pitch in and give us a veiw of your minds and you knowledge or best estimation of the working order of well......Order!


Oh and before anyone posts finding a body.......Think like you have the body, or a living creature. Then what happens?

The deck is heavily stacked against the bringing forward of a BF body, IMO. I know you don't want the conspiracy angle, but, it cannot be avoided. There are waaay too many concerns that do not want BF officially recognized for a variety of reasons. Too many big name, well connected scientific concerns would be shaken loose from their well armed, insulated ivory towers. The lumber industry, the housing industry, mining industry, developers and a plethora of other industrial concerns are all well moneyed enough to bend governmental ears to keep the lid on BF. Money talks, he who has the Gold rules, etc. etc.
Big religion certainly doesn't want or need the headache of a vetted BF. It brings up too many questions the average pastor would rather not tackle from the pulpit. Just thinking about it now gives me a headache.
And, imagine what will happen when the news reaches the environmentalists. OY!!

I think too many powerful folks want to keep the lid tightly affixed on this particular genie bottle.

I think if you had a body and brought it to a big name media outlet, it'd be snatched away from you so fast you would be stunned. You'd be lucky if it got on the air, and if it did, that footage would be gone in a flash. Another urban legend...

And now that you've heard from the lunatic fringe,
I'll step aside and let others actually tackle your question.

Not that I think it would happen, the government coming in and seizing your Sas carcass. But what I would do is show as many people as possible, and let them take pictures and video. Then I'd call a cop friend of mine and have him come look at it too. Then I'd call my nephew who goes to UMass and have him arrange to have as many professors as possible come and gawk at the damn thing. I'd have my lovely and long suffering wife call her friend who used to be a state rep. Then I'd have her call the town manager who she knows from dealing with him for her job. Call all the Boston news stations and have them come too.
Basically have as many "professional" type folks come and have a look-see.

So if the body is seized and buried in red tape never to surface again then how can BF be 'proven by science'? I keep reading on the internet, on this website or that website how people want to believe, they want to see one, they want it to be proven by science. Or that it is a 'unproven' thing.

So who is science? Not what would the government or special interests do to keep it from being proven, to make the proof disappear.

I have no intentions of Hunting BF and I have way to much commonsense, fear/flight response, and inteligence to try to catch one alive. So I will not be the person to bring one forward......But one of these days or perhaps it has already happened a dozen times.......One of these days one will be found.......What makes up the basis for science to prove to all of the fence sitters and non believers.

Either way IF there have already been several or any that have been found and confiscated by whom ever......then it will never be proven and that would be a conspiricay theory.......Makes for great science fiction I can think of atleast 10 different story lines that could make the best sellar list. And even if I think that that is possible, that is not what I am after.
But never fear if you already posted that......Thanks for posting.

Science has it's hands tied basicly, you can't fully describe an unknown biological entitiy with anything less than a body. Evidence and or sign of such an animal is likely to be misidentified or attributed to some other animal or human. The physical objective evidence can be studied but attributing it to BF irrefutably can't be done until it is proven by a body first.

Clear close footage of a biped doing something inhuman, for instance, stepping over a 4' barbwire fence and clearly snagging some hairs on it, which are later found to be non-human primate, would convince alot of people, but may not put it in the science books.

DNA from numerous hair samples across the country demonstrating a unique primate exists would get some serious attention as well.

SY.

From lay people to Nobel prize winners, it's basically anyone that uses the scientific method.

so Anyone could be science???? that seems a little odd George.....I can't see how just anyone following scientific methods could be science. Does that mean that my say doctor who took a lot of science in college could be the science behind the proof needed to make BF recognized.... or do you mean some other specific group of people doing scientific things would be science? I am not picking on you I just want to be clear.

I agree it could be anyone using the scientific method(s). I think anyone that has the training not to screw things up, someone that can do things "appropriately". I also think that those with PdD behind their name in an associated field understand how not to screw things up, but sometimes do, but those that don't have formal training are more likely to screw things up. If you're published in an associated journal it's because you know how to do things, from the beginning to the end (whether you're right or wrong in your conclusions), at least you know how to do things (you may still make mistakes). So, again, I think anyone can be "science" just like anyone can be "plumber" or "home builder". I'd rather get a licensed plumber in my house though if I had a plumbing problem as serious as a bigfoot body could be; although my neighbor might be an excellent plumber, I think I'd want one with plumber PhD behind his name. Does that make sense?

So there is a Body or a living animal...... then who determines that it is indeed a sasquatch? Who makes up the governing body of who is science. Obviously a long shot, and deeply in need of trust.....who.

There have been everything from Police officers and even a former president that expressed belief in the existence of our illusive friend. I have met many people in my lifetime that have had encounters, many among them were not just professionals but upper crust salt of the earth people.....a few of them would be taken at word. Hundreds of witness accounts exist. Casts of footprints and butt prints and body prints......even hair samples. The Jeff Meldrums and the Gimlins and Pattersons. None of this is science and not one of those people came froward with a body......But if one of them had would any one of them on their word been science- meaning would they have proven the existence? Probably not.

So what would be the protocol.....The Smithsonian, the University of.....? Some governement lab in a basement bunker? A group of researchers from .com this?



Good point Ace

In my opinion, yes. Anyone that has new data obtained by using the scientific method that cannot be disputed unequivocally is a "scientist". That new data is now science. Science is not something that can only come from somebody is already a scientist. Scientists are created every day with each new proven exploration. What's accepted or rejected determines the extent of the title.

This is just the way I see it and not according to Webster. The definition of a scientist in the dictionary is a little vague in my opinion.

Thanks George

COwatcher,

I think this also pertains to academia.....

is a scientist one who is recognized by his peers? or could it also be some one UN-schooled that is an expert in his field?

the trouble with academia to me would be training professors and experts and yet not giving them enough real world experience.........this is just my opinion guys , dont beat up on it.........what I am gettin at is do they really "get it" in a real world situation.......

case in point, a relative is an expert guitar player and flute , reads music like I eat cheerios , lol........and then plays it quite well, but the problem is his music has no soul.......sounds more like a tape recording, hard to explain......but I know some people that have had no musical training whatsoever that could play the blues so good you would listen to it till your ears bleed.........and still beg for more....

so who is the real "expert" in that situation? the one who is schooled and taught to read and understand? or the one that has a "natural talent" ?

another case in point......when ever you think of electricity, what name do you think of?.......most would say edison.........for me it is tesla......edison is the recognized expert in the field.......but if it wasnt for tesla, we wouldnt have had most of the electrical things that we use everyday......think about it.......

i could go on and on with this line of thought but i will keep it simple...........

what is science? if it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck, and floats on water like a duck, is it a tangled mess of DNA , protoplasm's, calcium,water and carbon? or is it just a duck, lol

who is science? anyone who has an interest in a subject and studies that subject.........for the end result? to learn more, lol

<Sorry for length - this one grew more complex than I initially anticipated.>

Strictly speaking, a scientist is anyone who follows the scientific method to gain understanding about the natural world. We generally call that process "research," although some forms of research (e.g., scholarship in the arts) usually do not follow the scientific method.

If a person's "day job" is to do science, then it is appropriate to call that person a scientist. If someone is, say, an insurance claims adjuster but does a good bit of science as an amateur, then the person will be identified by whatever profession pails the bills, regardless of the quality of the science the person does. Some people distinguish themselves as scientists, farmers, musicians, authors, statesmen, Francophiles, architects, etc. We have no label for such people other than "Thomas Jefferson."

Okay, so within the population of professional scientists out there, some people do the kind of work that is relevant for a bigfoot description. These people can be labeled by their specialty within biology as "taxonomists" or "systematists," and these are the folks who publish papers that make the case for new species. (For example, Jeff Meldrum and the Saskeptic are both "scientists," "biologists," and "professors," but Dr. Meldrum has the anatomical chops to publish a paper that describes a new species while Dr. Saskeptic does not.) Based on their analysis of some biological specimen - it can be a whole body, a piece of a body, a single bone, a fossil, a DNA sample, a photograph (although we've debated that here a few times) - they make the case that the anatomy, DNA sequence - whatever - indicates that the specimen came from no organism currently recognized with a "scientific name" following classical Linnean methods, etc., Procyon lotor (raccoon). The systematist publishes a paper that includes a proposed name for the species.

Only those people with advanced training in the anatomy and evolutionary relationships of species have the skills required to conduct such analysis and publish such a paper. Rarely, amateur biologists do amass sufficient knowledge and develop such skills. The far more likely situation, however, is that the person doing this kind of work has an advanced degree, and generally it's a doctorate (PhD).

When the analysis is completed, the scientist will prepare a manuscript for publication and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal. The manuscript will be critically evaluated by 2-3 other scientists with similar training and expertise and the editor of the journal in question. If the work passes muster, it will be published in the journal. This is really, however, just the first step to getting a new species recognized by "Science."

Once the paper appears in print, it will be available for all manner of critics to evaluate, attempt to replicate, and support or refute with additional papers. Two scientists will often disagree over a given species' description, e.g., when one considers it a "full" species while the other considers it a subspecies of something more widespread. Such battles can be waged for decades in the literature for problematic cases such as morphologically divergent forms that show varying degrees of hybridization where they co-occur. (Birders are very sensitive to this as it affects our life lists: When Baltimore and Bullock's orioles were lumped as "Northern Oriole," we lost a species on our lists. When they were re-split more recently, some of us gained a new species. For birds the American Ornithologist's Union is the "scientific community" that evaluates research and issues officially recognized checklists of species.) So species descriptions can be in flux for lengthy periods of time, they can be dependent on a particular scientists' authority (which is why you'll often see with the scientific name an abbreviation of the author who described that species), and they can shift as trends in biosystematics change over time, e.g., an overriding emphasis on "lumping" or "splitting."

So, great case in point: Jeff Meldrum publishes a paper naming a new species in North America: Anthropoidipes ameriborealis, but this doesn't mean that the species described is "recognized by the scientific community." (I assume that the American Society of Mammalogists has some oversight much like the AOU does for birds.) That will take a good bit of time and some corroborative publications. Unfortunately for Dr. Meldrum, the journal in which he published is relatively obscure so few scientists are aware of the paper. He also followed a controversial route of attempting to name the species based on footprint impressions rather than on a type specimen. To date, the only response I've seen outside the bigfoot community has been negative.

I'm an unemployed insurance claims adjuster by the way I know you weren't talking about me specifically, but I thought it was funny you used my "profession" as an example so I figured I'd respond.

Ha. I started with "lawyer," but didn't want Counselor to think I was singling him out!

I usually think of Ben Franklin and his kite when you bring up electricity.

I just think that the idea of "prove it" or science says is a term that is loosley used to decide what is, or what is not yet proven. I have seen them I don't need to have a scientist in a stuffy lab tell me that they exist. Maybe though what they really are would be the question I would ask the scientist. Or the scientific community.

I do understand the correlations between musical talents. I like the analagy.

So how would you pick a scientist to research and then document your bigfoot that say lived in your attic. Totally fictional in location. But for the purpose of this post what would you do to be sure that the research was correct and unmolested. As I believe in truth and equality above most anything else. I do not mean womans lib or any of that either. Or would you just turn it over to whoever showed up and guess that that was science enough.

I'm not sure you get to "pick." I personally think that the safest thing to do is contact your state troopers. If your specimen is dead, let them make the decision whether to contract the Coroner's office or the nearest Wildlife Conservation Officer. The authorities will have contacts with anthropologists and wildlife biologists in your state who will likely have the chops to describe a new species from your specimen.

Alternatively, if you've always wanted to meet Meldrum in person, you contact him first so he can be there when you call in the troopers.

Now if your squatch is alive, I still think the troopers are the best place to start. If things got out of hand in your attic, they'd be well equipped to neutralize your angry squatch.

The two names that come to mind are Meldrum and Bindernagel. I believe they would be the first ones to contact. Not only are they credible, the passion to discover this animal is very important to them to validate all the work they have done in this field of research. Oh yeah I would entertain the thought of calling Biscardi too just to give the sas carcass a complete rectal exam...HEADFIRST of course!!!

I happen to disagree with you on this one saskeptic, people have professions , jobs, livelihoods, etc....but to identify (label) those said people by what they do is in my opinion just plain wrong.........they are people first, occupations second..........I tend not to categorize or pigeon hole people by what the do for a living......

I say this because I have met many people that are intelligent , articulate, and have a lot of common sense to boot......and they are usually not at the top rungs of society...cab drivers that are biblical scholars, garbage men ( or make that sanitation engineers) that can quote Shakespeare better than some actors.......not to mention that there are many , many experts, that do not work in their trained profession.......I am sure you know this too........ everyone is equal in my book , no matter what education level they have attained........ever meet a Phd holder pumping gas? I have.......

I completely agree with you driftinmark,although for legitimate recognition one would need verification from a bonafide "scientist".

Frankly I'd trust the opinion of the PhD pumping gas over that of the PhD relying on future research funding from government agencies and multinational companies, but then I have a paranoid streak

i.e. A PhD not working in his field can be more honest.

The original question posited in this thread was "Who is Science?" In other words, when we hear the phrase that something is accepted by "the scientific community," who are the people that make up that community? My response was intended to answer that question, specifically regarding the types of people who would be appropriate for the description of a new species based on the examination of a bigfoot carcass.

My comments do not in any way address the aptitude, intelligence, societal value, etc. of people who are not scientists - or who are scientists for that matter. Of course people are "people first, occupations second" as drinftinmark posted. It is, however, highly unlikely that the PhD who pumps gas for a living is an editor for Science or Nature. It doesn't matter how smart he is or how educated, what matters is whether or not he actively participates in relevant scholarship.

Click to view attachment

wow rockinkt, great family portrait!!!

after much thought in this matter, I dont think I would contact a scientist first at all............first person would be a freezer salesman, lol, next a lawyer................
then maybe an accountant.......this is of course if biggy was to drop dead on my back steps, lol

Be careful how you word this as in the field of science, a PhD is not obtained by sitting in a library and reading. In order to obtain a PhD, one is asked to do the "footwork" or "labwork" that is necessary to produce such manuscripts described by saskeptic earlier. So to assume that scientists with PhDs would have less real world experience than someone "naturally gifted" at science is a poor assumption. While I believe there are many brilliant people in this world without PhDs, I'm not sure how many of them would be able to go through the process of collecting, preparing, processing and analyzing samples and data in order to produce a manuscript or presentation that will withstand peer-review in a journal.

Additionally, a person's PhD is typically in their field of expertise, so one PhD is not the same as the next. My PhD is in a very different field than that of Dr. Meldrum, and thus I'd have to defer to his thoughts on things such as footprints, foot anatomy and evolution, so even though I've read his paper, I can't tell you if it's worth anything because I don't understand the intricacies of his study and field. On the other hand, I can pretty readily tell you whether a new paper on viral genetics was done well and the conclusions were rightly supported by the results, and I hope he'd defer to someone like me on such matters in the same way.

Did you notice that we're not only looking - we're listening too!

No, I'm too distracted by how tight Horshack's jeans appear to be. I think he, um, 'dressed right' as the old-time tailors used to say.

good one saskeptic

I had a feeling my statement would draw the ire of a few, but it really wasnt ment that way..........I guess the original question on the topic was to me who was supposed to be the first "Identifier" of a bigguy corpse or perhaps even a live specimen..... Judging from common knowledge, this task could be done by a typical layman...I.E. most of the general population knows we have no 8 foot tall , bipedal apes around, or at least this is the general consensus........
so if you found a flesh and blood creature, I am quite sure the finder could very well ascertain that it is an unknown species.......especially if he couldnt get the suit off, lol.....and at this time , I would venture to say, the finder would know for certain that he has found something that hasn't been found to many times before...So in this type of case, the "scientific" community wouldn't be necessary just yet...

but after the "body" has been brought into the limelight, for sure would be the time for "actual scientific study" ....then it could be a scientific free for all!!!!
imagine the papers that will be written, lol.......probably enough scientific data for years to come.........

on another note, there have been times that i have seen and been a part of where "educated " people have felt that they were better than other people,just because of their education, while I have not witnessed this here on this board.......it does prevail on the internet.......I guess here its that we are all "crazy bigfoot guys and gals" and because of that reason its a great place to be.......

Right!...No wait...that's just soooo wrong!


Here is a photo of me now...life after 50 has been good to me!

Click to view attachment



(with apologies to Marco Hietala and fans of Nightwish!)

Nice.
I see time has been kind to you. In a Metallica roadie kind of way.

I would definitely try to contact Jeff Meldrum, and hope he didn't think I was a prankster. Hmm, I'm not sure who else I would try to contact, being that I'm not a researcher in this phenomenon, only an interested observer. . .You guys may laugh, but I think my first instinct would be to call or email George Noory, LOL. I know, I know, but I like the show, and I would certainly think they (he) could put me in touch with the proper people. (Try Not To Hold That Against Me!!)

As far as some people's theories that the Gov. or whomever, would NOT let this happen (bringing forth a body), I disagree. I'm sure there are some who might think this would greatly disturb the accepted ideas as far as evolution, but I don't think anyone would try to actually stop it from happening. Just can't see that happening. Sorry, just cannot accept that.

hmmm to many of vilnoori's mushrooms? lol