Just wondering your thoughts on this.
Ray Crowe has proven to be a very strong supporter of one Mary Green.
Given the obvious shortfalls of her work, how do you all think this traslates to his work?
Although I have not had the opportunity to read any of it, I had always though of the "Track Record" as a fairly important periodical in the sasquatch arena...but, given his aparent naivity in the Green situation..how does that bear upon the assumed validity of the reports in his journel?
Please note..I am NOT making any assumptions here, nor am I attempting to discount his work, not have read it...indeed, this comes us due to my considering subscribing to it.
But before I do...I would like to know I am not supporting Mary Green in some way, nor am I supporting a journel which gives credence to reports of dubious nature.
I assume some of you subscribe...if so, please let me know what type of reports make it in, and how they are treated.
Full Version: Ray Crowe's "Track Record"
Well, Nightwing, I'd be a lot more comfortable if Ray was a very strong supporter of JRR Tolkein, rather than Mary Green. Romanticized fiction is romanticized fiction. Some do it better than others. A whole lot better. Worlds apart better.
Credibility gotta be an issue here...
Credibility gotta be an issue here...
I have met Ray in person and have always enjoyed reading the Track Record. Ray has always had a reputation for printing anything and everything in it and advising to "keep your skepticals on" ...
His strong support of Mary Green does bother me quite a bit.
I was a member of the Western Bigfoot Society but its now the International Bigfoot Society and "Bigfoot Daze" is now a paid event held at a fairground instead of a round up of Bigfooters sharing what they have in a camp ground. It used to be fun. Now it looks more like a business. The whole damn Bigfoot "community" is looking more like a business thesedays and it really is starting to alienate me.
My subcriiption to the Track Record has now expired and I am not yet sure if I want to resubscribe.
His strong support of Mary Green does bother me quite a bit.
I was a member of the Western Bigfoot Society but its now the International Bigfoot Society and "Bigfoot Daze" is now a paid event held at a fairground instead of a round up of Bigfooters sharing what they have in a camp ground. It used to be fun. Now it looks more like a business. The whole damn Bigfoot "community" is looking more like a business thesedays and it really is starting to alienate me.
My subcriiption to the Track Record has now expired and I am not yet sure if I want to resubscribe.
I would give his publication an honest chance, even if he does not discount the Green nonsense.
But, I would read with one foot on the floor, at all times!!!
But, I would read with one foot on the floor, at all times!!!
If he renamed TR as "Tall Tales" (as I wrote & suggested to him some years ago) he wouldn't have to include a disclaimer to "keep your skepticals on." 
EDIT: I think TR is very definitely worth the sub. price. There is lots of interesting material besides sighting reports (which are not my main interest). For instance, one can read ordering details on self-published books & tapes, etc. And fascinating speculation, which can loosen one up for one's own speculation. And reports of talks given at his monthly meetings.
One thing did disturb me was TR's coverage of the recent Vermont sighting, where he didn't include the second story from the Bennington Banner, which made it pretty clear that the first sighting was a probable hoax.
EDIT: "Take what you can use and let the rest go by."
EDIT: I think TR is very definitely worth the sub. price. There is lots of interesting material besides sighting reports (which are not my main interest). For instance, one can read ordering details on self-published books & tapes, etc. And fascinating speculation, which can loosen one up for one's own speculation. And reports of talks given at his monthly meetings.
One thing did disturb me was TR's coverage of the recent Vermont sighting, where he didn't include the second story from the Bennington Banner, which made it pretty clear that the first sighting was a probable hoax.
EDIT: "Take what you can use and let the rest go by."
Ruins any he had left for me. Just like Dan Jackson. Anyone who supportts Mary may as well support Dave Sheally or Cliff Crook.
Ray's motto, often seen in theTrack Record has always been, "Keep your skepticals on!"
Seems to me he often will include items that he doesn't necessarily believe, and let the reader decide.
PS I see this is my 1,000 post. I must give thanks to all who have put up with my posts over the last year-and-a-half.
Seems to me he often will include items that he doesn't necessarily believe, and let the reader decide.
PS I see this is my 1,000 post. I must give thanks to all who have put up with my posts over the last year-and-a-half.
congradulations Tug...someday we'll catch bip and fish...
My problem is I'm gone for half-a-month at a time... and all I see is StacyinMI coming up behind me.
I'm sure... one of these months I' will return from the boat to find myself in 16th place.
As far as catching Brian or Tim (and let's not forget Lisa), I don't think I will live so long.
I'm sure... one of these months I' will return from the boat to find myself in 16th place.
As far as catching Brian or Tim (and let's not forget Lisa), I don't think I will live so long.
QUOTE(Tug)
As far as catching Brian or Tim (and let's not forget Lisa), I don't think I will live so long.
Hmmm...I am younger than all of them... 
Unfortunately, I am old enough to be the parent of all but Fish! 
Suddenly I feel very tired.
Suddenly I feel very tired.
QUOTE(SkunkHunter @ Nov 27 2003, 10:17 PM)
Ruins any he had left for me. Just like Dan Jackson. Anyone who supportts Mary may as well support Dave Sheally or Cliff Crook.
That sums it up for me also.
(Post count? Old age? Old post counts? I don't get it.)
I just wanted to say, on a sort of related note, that i think it's the Internet that has really raised the standards of the cryptozoological research community. Sure, we have to put up with the likes of MG sharing the megaphone, but overall, a lot more people are now involved in the field, and are able to communicate quickly. It means that people's standards are higher. Perhaps a few years ago, people would put up with slightly 'fringy' newsletters because the sources of info were so few and far between, and they'd hope that there was some wheat among the chaff.
Now, if anyone is suspected of being 'out there', there are any number of other sources of info to turn to instead (notably the BFRO, other smaller orgs, and places like this forum), and some more 'old school' figures and orgs are probably going to start being dethroned.
-robo
Now, if anyone is suspected of being 'out there', there are any number of other sources of info to turn to instead (notably the BFRO, other smaller orgs, and places like this forum), and some more 'old school' figures and orgs are probably going to start being dethroned.
-robo
QUOTE(nightwing @ Nov 27 2003, 06:41 AM)
Although I have not had the opportunity to read any of it, I had always though of the "Track Record" as a fairly important periodical in the sasquatch arena...but, given his aparent naivity in the Green situation..how does that bear upon the assumed validity of the reports in his journel?
Ray Crowe's initial mention of the MG book was highly favorable, but subsequently I haven't found any supporting statements in TR. Here's what I've found after scanning issues from the last two years. (I'll continue looking thru them and report back here if I find anything I missed.)
QUOTE("Track Record" #122 @ Oct. 2002, p. 9)
New book is available! Release will be on Dec. 9, 2002. "50 Years with Bigfoot: Tennessee Chronicles of Co-Existence."
Authors: Mary Green & Janice Carter Coy
This is a true story of a Tennessee farmer which began in 1947 while two farmers were clearing a portion of some wooded land on their farms. A hominid of unknown origin was pinned beneath a fallen tree resulting in injuries and cuts severe enough to require treatment. [12 lines omitted.] This started a lifelong friendship between the two of them until Robert, Sr., died in 1996, shortly after a strange and heart rending farewell between man and creature. [4 lines omitted.] What transpired through the years and Janice's keen interest in these creatures is the major portion of this book. Janice tells facts and gives information heretofore unavailable to mankind about the nature of the Bigfoot hominoid. It will astound and reveal--at last--the true nature of the Bigfoot. [14 lines of ordering info. follow.]
Authors: Mary Green & Janice Carter Coy
This is a true story of a Tennessee farmer which began in 1947 while two farmers were clearing a portion of some wooded land on their farms. A hominid of unknown origin was pinned beneath a fallen tree resulting in injuries and cuts severe enough to require treatment. [12 lines omitted.] This started a lifelong friendship between the two of them until Robert, Sr., died in 1996, shortly after a strange and heart rending farewell between man and creature. [4 lines omitted.] What transpired through the years and Janice's keen interest in these creatures is the major portion of this book. Janice tells facts and gives information heretofore unavailable to mankind about the nature of the Bigfoot hominoid. It will astound and reveal--at last--the true nature of the Bigfoot. [14 lines of ordering info. follow.]
Those last two sentences are the extent of RC's endorsement.
QUOTE("Track Record" #124 @ Feb. 2003, pp. 1-2)
Our guest speaker, David Mann, told of his recent trip to Tennessee to study the possible occurrence of a Bigfoot family there. It rained the whole ten days and he wasn't able to do much. ... the Bigfoot had holed up, possibly in a neighbor's hayloft ... he wasn't able to tresspass on other property owners' areas under threat of a blast from a shotgun--it is legal to shoot tresspassers in Tennessee. [6 lines omitted.]
... the Bigfoot creatures, apparently from what he was told ... asking questions in Bigfoot language (yes, they speak English!) ... [3 lines omitted.]
... he heard a "huffing" noise when walking around in the morning. The next day there was a dead calf nearby, the liver removed. He was told it was a "gift" from the creature ....
A curious anomaly. Dave gave us a blood sample, supposedly from one of the creatures, asking to have it analyzed. The next day I was bombarded with requests to return the samples from Easterners, with the excuses that it wasn't Dave's property to give away; they were having the DNA work done themselves; and it was possibly dog DNA from broken glass. (Thou dost protest too much.) Now I'm curious about the authenticity of the sample itself. Guess I'll have to wait some and see how things develop ... if it was actually dog blood, perhaps the whole story would unravel.
... the Bigfoot creatures, apparently from what he was told ... asking questions in Bigfoot language (yes, they speak English!) ... [3 lines omitted.]
... he heard a "huffing" noise when walking around in the morning. The next day there was a dead calf nearby, the liver removed. He was told it was a "gift" from the creature ....
A curious anomaly. Dave gave us a blood sample, supposedly from one of the creatures, asking to have it analyzed. The next day I was bombarded with requests to return the samples from Easterners, with the excuses that it wasn't Dave's property to give away; they were having the DNA work done themselves; and it was possibly dog DNA from broken glass. (Thou dost protest too much.) Now I'm curious about the authenticity of the sample itself. Guess I'll have to wait some and see how things develop ... if it was actually dog blood, perhaps the whole story would unravel.
That's pretty skeptical! (His "Yes, they speak English" seems meant ironically to me.) It was the last he had to say on that topic, except this:
QUOTE("Track Record" #127 @ May 2003, p. 16, col. 1)
(Mary Green in 50 Years with Bigfoot comments on the sighting of two naked Bigfeet by Janice Coy.)
Here are a couple of tidbits on other topics from TR I came across & thought I'd share:
QUOTE(Gregory Helton @ "Track Record" #128, p. 11, col. 2)
Now if you want to get more witnesses, put a Bigfoot sticker on your car. I've had many stop me to talk or to find out about them.
There was a company that sold software and blank bumper stickers, so one could make one's own. I used it when I had a DOS machine, but I didn't upgrade to the Windows version. Probably a web search would locate it. Maybe I'll start printing these again, as it's a similar venture to printing business cards.
QUOTE("Track Record" #123 @ p. 1, col. 2)
... brought a selection of his [Wallace's] hoax tracks to compare with Patterson tracks at the meeting. Commented that these wouldn't fool a third-grader. Then passed around one of his famous photos of the pregnant Bigfoot (TR #97), and told everybody to notice the cuff line.
QUOTE
From: Ray Crowe/group/DevilMonkeys/
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:29 pm
Subject: "The Book"
ADVERTISEMENT
TO: Ray Nelke...am doing my second reading of the book now, underlining lots of stuff. At first, I took the book at face value, even tho I did write a glaring introduction for the book. As can be seen in the latter part of this posting, I'm beginning to have a few serious doubts, or that is, keeping my skepticals on tighter. It may all be true...but then again certain critics may be right. I'm certainly not in any position to be a final judge...that will come from them and a possible "DNA" sample supposedly sent to highly respected New York specialists...and, as far as I know, is still awaiting analysis and a "scientific" write-up. Then I'll be a true believer again.
I had problems with the some of the more startling facts presented, and wondered about their confirmation...that is, Bigfoot often runs quadrapedally. Have made entries in the Track Record about this...heres an example:
* Kathy Lang reports that 16 years ago; 7/76; while on vacation at Couer D' Alene Lake in Idaho; she was confronted by a Bigfoot. She was with a bunch of kids playing in an abandoned camp with cabins and she was thrown in the lake while the other kids ran off. As she was headed back to her parents camp; two miles north of town; just beyond a small peninsula; she saw something kind of loping down the trail; apparently bent over or on all fours. She thought it was a bear and froze
Another thing I had a problem with was the "cat eyes" a nicotating membrane...again in an old Track Record I find:
* Roy Caddy and his friend Pete used to Pal around in Roy's spiffed up 4 wheel drive
pick up truck. This is back in his younger days he insists; back in the late 70's. It was a lot
of fun to just drive around; especially in the middle of the night near Sycan Marsh; when
they could spotlight deer; coyotes; and other nocturnal critters.
This time; besides lots of deer; they spotted some big eyes 3-4 ft. from the ground; but
spaced wide apart; and they looked like cat eyes; Roy said; slitted...and it kept glancing away. Roy’s friend has a slight
I found that her comment on "naked" Bigfeet strange, and talking it over with Dr Fahrenbach, was convinced that it "could have" been a result of mange or something similar.
On one part I sorta skipped over...the quasi-religious connections...a long write up on what "they" believed t he creature was. Also, many comments were directed at the old saw...Gigantopithecus...which has been pretty much discounted of late, so just skipped briefly over those comments. And the Language...what can I say. Do they talk or not? I sure don't know. There has been a lot written and recorded about communication with them and other creatures...I'll let that one slide.
Can they be habituated? A definite yes. Has Janice and her grandfather succeeded? I just don't know for sure anymore. Why no photos? Ummm...sorta weak there. The one photo of the female holding the blanket is similar to many I've published in the past...indistinct. But she says...pull out a camera and Fox (main character) is gone...zip zip. Anyway...read on, and buy the book...you won't be disappointed.
Ray
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:29 pm
Subject: "The Book"
ADVERTISEMENT
TO: Ray Nelke...am doing my second reading of the book now, underlining lots of stuff. At first, I took the book at face value, even tho I did write a glaring introduction for the book. As can be seen in the latter part of this posting, I'm beginning to have a few serious doubts, or that is, keeping my skepticals on tighter. It may all be true...but then again certain critics may be right. I'm certainly not in any position to be a final judge...that will come from them and a possible "DNA" sample supposedly sent to highly respected New York specialists...and, as far as I know, is still awaiting analysis and a "scientific" write-up. Then I'll be a true believer again.
I had problems with the some of the more startling facts presented, and wondered about their confirmation...that is, Bigfoot often runs quadrapedally. Have made entries in the Track Record about this...heres an example:
* Kathy Lang reports that 16 years ago; 7/76; while on vacation at Couer D' Alene Lake in Idaho; she was confronted by a Bigfoot. She was with a bunch of kids playing in an abandoned camp with cabins and she was thrown in the lake while the other kids ran off. As she was headed back to her parents camp; two miles north of town; just beyond a small peninsula; she saw something kind of loping down the trail; apparently bent over or on all fours. She thought it was a bear and froze
Another thing I had a problem with was the "cat eyes" a nicotating membrane...again in an old Track Record I find:
* Roy Caddy and his friend Pete used to Pal around in Roy's spiffed up 4 wheel drive
pick up truck. This is back in his younger days he insists; back in the late 70's. It was a lot
of fun to just drive around; especially in the middle of the night near Sycan Marsh; when
they could spotlight deer; coyotes; and other nocturnal critters.
This time; besides lots of deer; they spotted some big eyes 3-4 ft. from the ground; but
spaced wide apart; and they looked like cat eyes; Roy said; slitted...and it kept glancing away. Roy’s friend has a slight
I found that her comment on "naked" Bigfeet strange, and talking it over with Dr Fahrenbach, was convinced that it "could have" been a result of mange or something similar.
On one part I sorta skipped over...the quasi-religious connections...a long write up on what "they" believed t he creature was. Also, many comments were directed at the old saw...Gigantopithecus...which has been pretty much discounted of late, so just skipped briefly over those comments. And the Language...what can I say. Do they talk or not? I sure don't know. There has been a lot written and recorded about communication with them and other creatures...I'll let that one slide.
Can they be habituated? A definite yes. Has Janice and her grandfather succeeded? I just don't know for sure anymore. Why no photos? Ummm...sorta weak there. The one photo of the female holding the blanket is similar to many I've published in the past...indistinct. But she says...pull out a camera and Fox (main character) is gone...zip zip. Anyway...read on, and buy the book...you won't be disappointed.
Ray
Sounds like Mr. Crowe was somewhat wishy/washy on the "book" at times too.
QUOTE(GEORGEKARRAS @ Nov 27 2003, 12:31 PM)
The whole damn Bigfoot "community" is looking more like a business thesedays and it really is starting to alienate me.
That makes two of us.
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