Just a quick poll....do you believe in ETs that are capable of visiting earth?
I do...beyond a doubt...
GO!
Full Version: Quick Poll - ETs/UFOs?
Um, well, I don't think Einstein's findings about the speed of light can be broken. So I don't think it is likely that ET's that people allege to be exeriencing are from outer space per se. But I think that interdimensional travel or time travel might be possible in future, and in fact I think that a lot of people's experiences through history with spiritual beings might go under that category.
In short... yes...
I think it is arrogant myopic for us to think that Einsteins theories are the only plausible methods of travel relative to Time and Space... as my father always says, there is more going on in this universe than we can ever possibly imagine.
I think it is arrogant myopic for us to think that Einsteins theories are the only plausible methods of travel relative to Time and Space... as my father always says, there is more going on in this universe than we can ever possibly imagine.
I would give you that they exist because there are just too many star systems out there for us to be the only intelligent life in the universe.
Reaching earth presents a monumental problem due to the distances, but I watched a program the other night where a professor at one of the prominent US universities, can't remember his name, said not to be to hasty to dismiss the possibility. He agreed with Einsteins theory of the speed of light being the ultimate maximum velocity, but he also said that Einsteins theories left room for the possibility of space and time being distorted (folded) in some fashion as to decrease distance, and make interstellar travel possible.
Kind of reminded me of "Dune". The spice the spice.
Choctaw
Reaching earth presents a monumental problem due to the distances, but I watched a program the other night where a professor at one of the prominent US universities, can't remember his name, said not to be to hasty to dismiss the possibility. He agreed with Einsteins theory of the speed of light being the ultimate maximum velocity, but he also said that Einsteins theories left room for the possibility of space and time being distorted (folded) in some fashion as to decrease distance, and make interstellar travel possible.
Kind of reminded me of "Dune". The spice the spice.
Choctaw
I'll defer to Carl Sagan:
"If we are alone in the Universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space."
But…
"As far as I know aliens visit earth every other Tuesday, but until they land on the White House lawn, there is no proof they exist"€¯ (paraphrase - I can't find the exact quote)
So to me it seems likely there is other life out there, but I highly doubt we've been visited.
"If we are alone in the Universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space."
But…
"As far as I know aliens visit earth every other Tuesday, but until they land on the White House lawn, there is no proof they exist"€¯ (paraphrase - I can't find the exact quote)
So to me it seems likely there is other life out there, but I highly doubt we've been visited.
I think it would be arrogant to assume that we are at the top of the food chain of the entire known universe.
And I think we have been visited, but I don't think those visitors necessarily had to come from a distance so great as to call relativity into question.
And I think we have been visited, but I don't think those visitors necessarily had to come from a distance so great as to call relativity into question.
It would be arrogant to beleive that we are the only intelligent life in the universe - just look up at night and see how many suns you can see.
Now, are they capable of visiting Earth? Possibly, but why would they want to visit a planet overrun by those nasty, violent, territorial creatures called humans?
Now, are they capable of visiting Earth? Possibly, but why would they want to visit a planet overrun by those nasty, violent, territorial creatures called humans?
Just wish the universe would quit expanding so damn fast, just in case it is making it harder to have established peaceful contact! 
Intelligent life on other planets? Sure. Why not?
Have they--or are they--coming here? No way.
I thought you said they were intelligent.
Have they--or are they--coming here? No way.
I thought you said they were intelligent.
Ummm, an actual poll at the top of this might be appropriate. 
I don't see any way that we could possibly be the only intelligent life in the entire universe. Are they visiting us? Science says it's impossible, but who knows what realities are out there that we haven't discovered yet.
I don't see any way that we could possibly be the only intelligent life in the entire universe. Are they visiting us? Science says it's impossible, but who knows what realities are out there that we haven't discovered yet.
Do I believe? No, not unless adequate evidence is produced.
And speaking of Sagan...
Sagan also said this:
You can preview the book here.
RayG
And speaking of Sagan...
Sagan also said this:
QUOTE
I'm frequently asked, "Do you believe there's extraterrestrial intelligence?" I give the standard arguments -- there are a lot of places out there, the molecules of life are everywhere, I use the word billions, and so on. Then I say it would be astonishing to me if there weren't extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as yet no compelling evidence for it.
Often, I'm asked next, "What do you really think?"
I say, "I just told you what I really think."
"Yes, but what's your gut feeling?"
But I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble. Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in." -- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark, page 180.
Often, I'm asked next, "What do you really think?"
I say, "I just told you what I really think."
"Yes, but what's your gut feeling?"
But I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble. Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in." -- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark, page 180.
You can preview the book here.
RayG
I think I rad once where there's an estimated 10 trillion planets out there that may be close to habitable, like earth. 10 trillion!
Space travel presents a huge problem but perhaps they are many, many yrs ahead of us...
Think about this statement:
A LONG time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....
Look at what we have achieved in the past 150 years....imagine if an ET life had 100,000 yrs on us?
Space travel presents a huge problem but perhaps they are many, many yrs ahead of us...
Think about this statement:
A LONG time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....
Look at what we have achieved in the past 150 years....imagine if an ET life had 100,000 yrs on us?
Ummmmmm, duh......Smallville???!!???
I dont "believe" in anything having to do with unproven topics. I do think its possible there are other life forms out there. I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the possibility. Thinking its possible, and believing are two different things though.
QUOTE(RiverRun @ Apr 4 2009, 12:43 PM) 
I dont "believe" in anything having to do with unproven topics. I do think its possible there are other life forms out there. I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the possibility. Thinking its possible, and believing are two different things though.
Good poin there RiverRun.
I would add that seeing a UFO does change your perspective and thought process on this.
There are some pictographs and other historical references that could be construed as "visitors".
I do see a theme here - arrogant - people keep saying it would be arrogant for us to think we are the only intelligent beings.
I will say this, that I "believe" in "aliens" about as much as I do Sasquatch. Either need to see one for myself or see scientific proof. At the same time I lean towards both being real.
I know for a 100% fact that UFO's exist.
QUOTE(COGrizzly @ Apr 4 2009, 08:02 PM)
I know for a 100% fact that UFO's exist.
I know this too for a fact having seen one first hand, but then I also remember that UFOs are not necessarily spaceships, they are 'Unidentified Flying Objects' - there is little chance now in my flying object being identified, so it will always be a UFO.
QUOTE(Paul1968UK @ Apr 4 2009, 01:37 PM)
I know this too for a fact having seen one first hand, but then I also remember that UFOs are not necessarily spaceships, they are 'Unidentified Flying Objects' - there is little chance now in my flying object being identified, so it will always be a UFO.
bingo....
Have I seen a flying thingey that I didnt know what it was? Multiple times.... Spaceship with fetus rustling bubble headed greys? Prove it
We are not alone....
Hi
I certainly believe that there are UFOs as in unidentified flying objects, Thats a pretty simple given because of all the man made things that fly in the sky,
I don't know were i really stand on Aliens flying around and letting us see them once in a while cause it just don't make sense, I am fairly certain there is life out there some wear if the universe is as big as we are told it is.
Peace
Tim
I certainly believe that there are UFOs as in unidentified flying objects, Thats a pretty simple given because of all the man made things that fly in the sky,
I don't know were i really stand on Aliens flying around and letting us see them once in a while cause it just don't make sense, I am fairly certain there is life out there some wear if the universe is as big as we are told it is.
Peace
Tim
Space is remarkably ... spacious, for lack of a better word, and while I strongly suspect we are not the only life in the universe given the vast number of other stars/planets, I firmly believe that until we find (or are shown 
) that there are ways around our current understanding of physics, it is not reasonable to expect we are hosting uninvited visitors. Never say never, so if they consider the 10,000 Earth years it would take to get from the edge of our solar system to us (at the fastest speed ever achieved with any man-made object, about 37,000 mph* - Voyager 1 & 2) but a day of their own time, it is certainly possible.
The nearest star to us is 4.3 light years away, and I am aware of no iteration of current thinking in physics that would allow us or anyone else to bridge that gap in a reasonable timeframe without some element of which we as yet have no knowledge. The Pioneer Anomaly is interesting as it may be the result of inaccurate measurements, but it could also be the result of an element of physics we're currently missing that makes Richard Dreyfuss' half sunburned face possible.
All of which was kind of a long way of saying my heart says yes, but my brain says no.
*The New Horizons craft may be going faster, but the highest speed I found listed on NASA's site for it is 27,000 mph.
) that there are ways around our current understanding of physics, it is not reasonable to expect we are hosting uninvited visitors. Never say never, so if they consider the 10,000 Earth years it would take to get from the edge of our solar system to us (at the fastest speed ever achieved with any man-made object, about 37,000 mph* - Voyager 1 & 2) but a day of their own time, it is certainly possible. The nearest star to us is 4.3 light years away, and I am aware of no iteration of current thinking in physics that would allow us or anyone else to bridge that gap in a reasonable timeframe without some element of which we as yet have no knowledge. The Pioneer Anomaly is interesting as it may be the result of inaccurate measurements, but it could also be the result of an element of physics we're currently missing that makes Richard Dreyfuss' half sunburned face possible.
All of which was kind of a long way of saying my heart says yes, but my brain says no.
*The New Horizons craft may be going faster, but the highest speed I found listed on NASA's site for it is 27,000 mph.
I believe with certainty. I also think they visit Earth.
Yes I do.
Its crazy in my opinion to believe that we are alone in the universe.
Its crazy in my opinion to believe that we are alone in the universe.
SETI has been listening for a signal for the past 30 years - only one signal has been heard, only once. It never repeated. I think that we can postulate that there's no intelligent life within 30 light-years or we would have heard something.
The certainty that there is other life out there is well accepted. If we take the 30+ light years measure, the possibility that we have been visited becomes slighter and slighter. The shear cost of mounting an expedition (large scale if you ask some ufologists) becomes immense. The cost of escaping the gravity of an earth-like planet is huge - not something that can be done on a large scale. If a neighbor from 30+ light-years distance is going to visit, they're not going to be coy, only visiting Iowa farms and Arizona ranches. They'd get as much bang for the buck as they could: they'd make their presence known.
Let's say that there's a civilization every 50 light years. Then the chance of them coming here would be about one in six - they'd have an arc 50 light-years distant and a civilization every 50 light years measured along it (a circle that would be 314 light-years around. If they did choose us, they probably wouldn't have gotten here yet.
The certainty that there is other life out there is well accepted. If we take the 30+ light years measure, the possibility that we have been visited becomes slighter and slighter. The shear cost of mounting an expedition (large scale if you ask some ufologists) becomes immense. The cost of escaping the gravity of an earth-like planet is huge - not something that can be done on a large scale. If a neighbor from 30+ light-years distance is going to visit, they're not going to be coy, only visiting Iowa farms and Arizona ranches. They'd get as much bang for the buck as they could: they'd make their presence known.
Let's say that there's a civilization every 50 light years. Then the chance of them coming here would be about one in six - they'd have an arc 50 light-years distant and a civilization every 50 light years measured along it (a circle that would be 314 light-years around. If they did choose us, they probably wouldn't have gotten here yet.
When you look in the night sky, you can only see about one millionth of the stars in our galaxy alone. There are at least about as many other galaxies as there are stars in our galaxy. We don't know how big the actual universe is because we can only theoretically see about 13 billion light years and we are limited by the fact that space time over that distance is expanding at the speed of light so we will probably never know the true size of the universe.
Relativity isn't a reason they can't be here unless you see time as humans do. As you approach the speed of light, time for you slows down. You could go to the other side of the galaxy in a lifetime if you could generate sufficient speed. You could probably never go home because so much time would have elapsed. They could be millions or even billions of years more advanced than us. Odds are they would be tens of millions of years beyond us even if they came from a planet that was about the same age as Earth. The logic is simply the assumption of a planet with space capable aliens relative to the age of the planets. Modern humans haven't been around long compared to the age of the planet. Upright walking hominids are only known to have been walking the planet for about 1/1000 of its existence. The chances of them being equivalent to us is very remote when you look at time that way. The aliens might just occupy space.
I think it is very likely that they exist and visit earth. My brother Jim saw some lights over Yakima about 30 years ago doing what he described as impossibly high g maneuvers. If he actually saw something making maneuvers like that, then the seemingly obvious speculation would be that it was controlling gravity in some way. It would have to survive those sorts of G's. We have such little knowledge about the nature of gravity that it seems to me that there is a potential to exploit it to travel to the stars. It accelerates objects and it compresses or bends space time depending how you look at it. I don't think our physics truly understands even how gravity interacts with space or even what it is.
Relativity isn't a reason they can't be here unless you see time as humans do. As you approach the speed of light, time for you slows down. You could go to the other side of the galaxy in a lifetime if you could generate sufficient speed. You could probably never go home because so much time would have elapsed. They could be millions or even billions of years more advanced than us. Odds are they would be tens of millions of years beyond us even if they came from a planet that was about the same age as Earth. The logic is simply the assumption of a planet with space capable aliens relative to the age of the planets. Modern humans haven't been around long compared to the age of the planet. Upright walking hominids are only known to have been walking the planet for about 1/1000 of its existence. The chances of them being equivalent to us is very remote when you look at time that way. The aliens might just occupy space.
I think it is very likely that they exist and visit earth. My brother Jim saw some lights over Yakima about 30 years ago doing what he described as impossibly high g maneuvers. If he actually saw something making maneuvers like that, then the seemingly obvious speculation would be that it was controlling gravity in some way. It would have to survive those sorts of G's. We have such little knowledge about the nature of gravity that it seems to me that there is a potential to exploit it to travel to the stars. It accelerates objects and it compresses or bends space time depending how you look at it. I don't think our physics truly understands even how gravity interacts with space or even what it is.
QUOTE(BobZenor @ May 20 2009, 02:23 PM)
They could be millions or even billions of years more advanced than us.
I'm a little more pessimistic about the length of time a species exists. Sure, crocs, dragonflies, and sharks have been little changed over 100+ million years, but most species have a run that's much shorter (about 1 million on average?). Our species has been around on the order of tens of thousands of years, and been seriously advancing as a technological creature for only about 200 years. Yet in that short amount of time, we've brought about global changes in the environment that potentially threaten our own existence.
If it takes a million years of technology to get good enough to work around gravity, time, etc., I don't think we'll make it. I'm not optimistic about us making it another 500 years without a switch to a completely different, free, and renewable primary energy source, complete independence from groundwater resources, and complete immunity to communicable disease. If those things come along in the next 100 years, then we might have a chance for a good long run. Otherwise, I see war, disease, and decline on the horizon as our burgeoning population competes for rapidly diminishing natural resources. To me it's not a question of whether we should fix our environmental/energy/population problem OR focus on colonizing other planets. It's that we won't be able to focus on long term interplanetary colonization until we solve our environmental/energy/population problem.
So are we humans unusual among advanced civilizations that we might destroy ourselves before reaching our full potential, or is that pattern the norm? Of course, no one can say. Maybe some ETs out there avoided ecological damage on their own planets because they're photosynthetic (no energy needed for food), poikilothermic (no energy needed for heating or cooling), and bioluminescent (no energy needed for lighting). If they poured all their technological know-how into intergalactic travel, they could be way more advanced in that area than we are after, say, 200 years of technological revolution. Maybe they're visiting Earth to learn how to grow a better head of broccoli . . .
If any aliens colonies are close to earth why would the respond to a signal.
They would already know of our existence and already have the ways to make their presense known if they wish to do so.
They would already know of our existence and already have the ways to make their presense known if they wish to do so.
QUOTE(Tom.Merrill @ May 21 2009, 04:50 AM)
SETI has been listening for a signal for the past 30 years - only one signal has been heard, only once. It never repeated. I think that we can postulate that there's no intelligent life within 30 light-years or we would have heard something.
The certainty that there is other life out there is well accepted. If we take the 30+ light years measure, the possibility that we have been visited becomes slighter and slighter. The shear cost of mounting an expedition (large scale if you ask some ufologists) becomes immense. The cost of escaping the gravity of an earth-like planet is huge - not something that can be done on a large scale. If a neighbor from 30+ light-years distance is going to visit, they're not going to be coy, only visiting Iowa farms and Arizona ranches. They'd get as much bang for the buck as they could: they'd make their presence known.
Let's say that there's a civilization every 50 light years. Then the chance of them coming here would be about one in six - they'd have an arc 50 light-years distant and a civilization every 50 light years measured along it (a circle that would be 314 light-years around. If they did choose us, they probably wouldn't have gotten here yet.
The certainty that there is other life out there is well accepted. If we take the 30+ light years measure, the possibility that we have been visited becomes slighter and slighter. The shear cost of mounting an expedition (large scale if you ask some ufologists) becomes immense. The cost of escaping the gravity of an earth-like planet is huge - not something that can be done on a large scale. If a neighbor from 30+ light-years distance is going to visit, they're not going to be coy, only visiting Iowa farms and Arizona ranches. They'd get as much bang for the buck as they could: they'd make their presence known.
Let's say that there's a civilization every 50 light years. Then the chance of them coming here would be about one in six - they'd have an arc 50 light-years distant and a civilization every 50 light years measured along it (a circle that would be 314 light-years around. If they did choose us, they probably wouldn't have gotten here yet.
Very interesting, may I request that you extrapolate on how you got to one in six?
In answer to the op, no I do not believe intelligent life has visited the planet to date, mostly for the reasons of distance as already stated. Easy to say Einstein will one day be surpassed, but there is no good reason to believe such will ever happen.
Is anything even out there? I've been reviewing the whole evolution of life thing, and am struck over and over again by the sheer luck that was involved. First the right mixture of elements, the right gravitational degree based on size and elements of earth, the right distance from the sun for a good range of temperature fast enough rotation not to bake/freeze one side of the planet. Also we need something to shield the solar radiation and bombardment of the planet, atmosphere and moon. Also water. The formation of water in liquid form is key to life here. The formation of organic molecules and the destruction of the wrong kind of racemic molecules world-wide (left vs. right handed molecules, almost all of them on our planet are left-oriented, those formed by completely random reactions occur in 50-50 percentage and most of the right handed ones are lethal to life), the near impossibility of a fully functional cell forming by random events, enough of them to get life up and running, then of course what is producing the drives to live, eat, excrete, move, reproduce in those cells...
Looking at the animals that have evolved to fit certain niches, it strikes me that several different forms of sea monster, and of crocodile (even mammalian types) and of opposum, big cat like predator, many hippo and rhino body types, flying types, fish types, etc. have evolved repeatedly independantly, but as far as I know us Homo sapiens are the only ones (a very recent development) that have developed problem solving and technology to the point of being able to build flying machines. And we came about through some very special adaptations, first the squirrel-like flexible and multi-tasking digits, big forward facing eyes and big brain all found in tree dwelling insectivorous hunters, that because of changing circumstances (or just a great availability of environmental niches) got a bit bigger and bipedal, then were forced back into a hunting and running mode of travel that drove things onward. I think. Anyway, really, what are the chances of it being able to happen even twice?!
And then consider the other intelligent forms of life among animals here. There are very intelligent birds, but they don't have the manipulative characteristics required to develop technology. Dolphins have no need of it, all their big brain does is give them a fun sex and social life and enable them to cooperatively fish. Big apes have the manipulative ability but because they can retreat to trees in danger don't develop fire. Elephants are another possible candidate but have such a plentiful food supply, again, why would they need to become problem solvers like we did. Octopi and squid are another possibility, but they've stayed exactly the same for millions of years without developing further--and being in water I think is limiting too.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once. And as a theist I think it was intended to be that way. BUT although we have some idea about what our galaxy and universe is like we have absolutely NO IDEA what other dimensions are like. If ET's are here and are found in a multitude of forms as UFO sightings and our common collective historical/relig texts suggest, they must be coming from other dimensions, and there's no telling what conditions, even laws of nature, might be like there. or "theres" since there are apparently lots of them.
Bit of a Sunday night ramble...carry on...
Looking at the animals that have evolved to fit certain niches, it strikes me that several different forms of sea monster, and of crocodile (even mammalian types) and of opposum, big cat like predator, many hippo and rhino body types, flying types, fish types, etc. have evolved repeatedly independantly, but as far as I know us Homo sapiens are the only ones (a very recent development) that have developed problem solving and technology to the point of being able to build flying machines. And we came about through some very special adaptations, first the squirrel-like flexible and multi-tasking digits, big forward facing eyes and big brain all found in tree dwelling insectivorous hunters, that because of changing circumstances (or just a great availability of environmental niches) got a bit bigger and bipedal, then were forced back into a hunting and running mode of travel that drove things onward. I think. Anyway, really, what are the chances of it being able to happen even twice?!
And then consider the other intelligent forms of life among animals here. There are very intelligent birds, but they don't have the manipulative characteristics required to develop technology. Dolphins have no need of it, all their big brain does is give them a fun sex and social life and enable them to cooperatively fish. Big apes have the manipulative ability but because they can retreat to trees in danger don't develop fire. Elephants are another possible candidate but have such a plentiful food supply, again, why would they need to become problem solvers like we did. Octopi and squid are another possibility, but they've stayed exactly the same for millions of years without developing further--and being in water I think is limiting too.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once. And as a theist I think it was intended to be that way. BUT although we have some idea about what our galaxy and universe is like we have absolutely NO IDEA what other dimensions are like. If ET's are here and are found in a multitude of forms as UFO sightings and our common collective historical/relig texts suggest, they must be coming from other dimensions, and there's no telling what conditions, even laws of nature, might be like there. or "theres" since there are apparently lots of them.
Bit of a Sunday night ramble...carry on...
I personally believe that the universe is infinite. I also believe that there never was a period of nothing and suddenly "bang" it all began. There was no beginning of time as we know it, it just has always been and always will be. I believe there is intelligence beyond our little world and pity skeptics who deny the possibility of further life.
I also seen a perfectly round, soft green illuminated object about 3/4 size of a typical full moon, descending towards the ground in complete silence about 6 months ago. And it was most definatly not a meteor, asteroid or comet. No way was it an airplane or helicopter. It is unidentified, it was flying and it was an object. In other words...UFO
I also seen a perfectly round, soft green illuminated object about 3/4 size of a typical full moon, descending towards the ground in complete silence about 6 months ago. And it was most definatly not a meteor, asteroid or comet. No way was it an airplane or helicopter. It is unidentified, it was flying and it was an object. In other words...UFO
QUOTE(vilnoori @ May 25 2009, 04:04 PM)
Is anything even out there? I've been reviewing the whole evolution of life thing, and am struck over and over again by the sheer luck that was involved. First the right mixture of elements, the right gravitational degree based on size and elements of earth, the right distance from the sun for a good range of temperature fast enough rotation not to bake/freeze one side of the planet. Also we need something to shield the solar radiation and bombardment of the planet, atmosphere and moon. Also water. The formation of water in liquid form is key to life here. The formation of organic molecules and the destruction of the wrong kind of racemic molecules world-wide (left vs. right handed molecules, almost all of them on our planet are left-oriented, those formed by completely random reactions occur in 50-50 percentage and most of the right handed ones are lethal to life), the near impossibility of a fully functional cell forming by random events, enough of them to get life up and running, then of course what is producing the drives to live, eat, excrete, move, reproduce in those cells...
Looking at the animals that have evolved to fit certain niches, it strikes me that several different forms of sea monster, and of crocodile (even mammalian types) and of opposum, big cat like predator, many hippo and rhino body types, flying types, fish types, etc. have evolved repeatedly independantly, but as far as I know us Homo sapiens are the only ones (a very recent development) that have developed problem solving and technology to the point of being able to build flying machines. And we came about through some very special adaptations, first the squirrel-like flexible and multi-tasking digits, big forward facing eyes and big brain all found in tree dwelling insectivorous hunters, that because of changing circumstances (or just a great availability of environmental niches) got a bit bigger and bipedal, then were forced back into a hunting and running mode of travel that drove things onward. I think. Anyway, really, what are the chances of it being able to happen even twice?!
And then consider the other intelligent forms of life among animals here. There are very intelligent birds, but they don't have the manipulative characteristics required to develop technology. Dolphins have no need of it, all their big brain does is give them a fun sex and social life and enable them to cooperatively fish. Big apes have the manipulative ability but because they can retreat to trees in danger don't develop fire. Elephants are another possible candidate but have such a plentiful food supply, again, why would they need to become problem solvers like we did. Octopi and squid are another possibility, but they've stayed exactly the same for millions of years without developing further--and being in water I think is limiting too.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once. And as a theist I think it was intended to be that way. BUT although we have some idea about what our galaxy and universe is like we have absolutely NO IDEA what other dimensions are like. If ET's are here and are found in a multitude of forms as UFO sightings and our common collective historical/relig texts suggest, they must be coming from other dimensions, and there's no telling what conditions, even laws of nature, might be like there. or "theres" since there are apparently lots of them.
Bit of a Sunday night ramble...carry on...
Looking at the animals that have evolved to fit certain niches, it strikes me that several different forms of sea monster, and of crocodile (even mammalian types) and of opposum, big cat like predator, many hippo and rhino body types, flying types, fish types, etc. have evolved repeatedly independantly, but as far as I know us Homo sapiens are the only ones (a very recent development) that have developed problem solving and technology to the point of being able to build flying machines. And we came about through some very special adaptations, first the squirrel-like flexible and multi-tasking digits, big forward facing eyes and big brain all found in tree dwelling insectivorous hunters, that because of changing circumstances (or just a great availability of environmental niches) got a bit bigger and bipedal, then were forced back into a hunting and running mode of travel that drove things onward. I think. Anyway, really, what are the chances of it being able to happen even twice?!
And then consider the other intelligent forms of life among animals here. There are very intelligent birds, but they don't have the manipulative characteristics required to develop technology. Dolphins have no need of it, all their big brain does is give them a fun sex and social life and enable them to cooperatively fish. Big apes have the manipulative ability but because they can retreat to trees in danger don't develop fire. Elephants are another possible candidate but have such a plentiful food supply, again, why would they need to become problem solvers like we did. Octopi and squid are another possibility, but they've stayed exactly the same for millions of years without developing further--and being in water I think is limiting too.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once. And as a theist I think it was intended to be that way. BUT although we have some idea about what our galaxy and universe is like we have absolutely NO IDEA what other dimensions are like. If ET's are here and are found in a multitude of forms as UFO sightings and our common collective historical/relig texts suggest, they must be coming from other dimensions, and there's no telling what conditions, even laws of nature, might be like there. or "theres" since there are apparently lots of them.
Bit of a Sunday night ramble...carry on...
And then we have 5 extinction events to counter as well!!
Very apt, I have been pondering the same thing of late, although, I figured would evolution not demand intelligent life eventually? It seems the best way to top the food chain, ultimately it seem the goal of evolution, it is how we have overcome some mighty predators, would not all species come to the realization that brain tops brawn? Each species has had it run, but we are the only ones to globally conquer earth and it's space, one would think that might be natures ultimate goal.
Or is it? Can intelligent life be rare with life as we know it?
QUOTE(CrimsonGoblin @ May 25 2009, 04:37 PM)
I personally believe that the universe is infinite. I also believe that there never was a period of nothing and suddenly "bang" it all began. There was no beginning of time as we know it, it just has always been and always will be. I believe there is intelligence beyond our little world and pity skeptics who deny the possibility of further life.
I also seen a perfectly round, soft green illuminated object about 3/4 size of a typical full moon, descending towards the ground in complete silence about 6 months ago. And it was most definatly not a meteor, asteroid or comet. No way was it an airplane or helicopter. It is unidentified, it was flying and it was an object. In other words...UFO
I also seen a perfectly round, soft green illuminated object about 3/4 size of a typical full moon, descending towards the ground in complete silence about 6 months ago. And it was most definatly not a meteor, asteroid or comet. No way was it an airplane or helicopter. It is unidentified, it was flying and it was an object. In other words...UFO
Ahhh, there is some pretty decent evidence of the big bang - we can still hear it even, and it quite well explains the universe. Stephen Hawkings is no dill. The fact that the Universe is still expanding is pretty hefty evidence as well. It also seems good evidence other life probably exists, seeming as we are made of Star Stuff, as Sagan put it. Distances are mind boggling, that is why we have no interplanetary visitors.
Awesome avatar there BTW.
Are there UFO's...absolutely. Anything flying around you cannot identify is a UFO. I am pretty sure we have all seen a UFO on occasion.
Are they from other planets...a different matter entirely. My personal opinion is that they do not exist as commonly perceived. To avoid violating board rules, I cannot go into details. My theory does involve one of the forbidden subjects here. Nuff said...
Are they from other planets...a different matter entirely. My personal opinion is that they do not exist as commonly perceived. To avoid violating board rules, I cannot go into details. My theory does involve one of the forbidden subjects here. Nuff said...
Question? ...ETs that are capable of visiting earth?
Answer? Yes.
Humans wouldnt be the most smartest things out there in the universe. We arent even the smartest on our own planet, well, not all of us.
But we can travel to other planets??? Fair enough, they might not be light years away but we can still do it and its only a matter of time before we work out how.
Answer? Yes.
Humans wouldnt be the most smartest things out there in the universe. We arent even the smartest on our own planet, well, not all of us.
But we can travel to other planets??? Fair enough, they might not be light years away but we can still do it and its only a matter of time before we work out how.
QUOTE(vilnoori @ May 25 2009, 01:04 AM)
And then consider the other intelligent forms of life among animals here. There are very intelligent birds, but they don't have the manipulative characteristics required to develop technology. Dolphins have no need of it, all their big brain does is give them a fun sex and social life and enable them to cooperatively fish. Big apes have the manipulative ability but because they can retreat to trees in danger don't develop fire. Elephants are another possible candidate but have such a plentiful food supply, again, why would they need to become problem solvers like we did. Octopi and squid are another possibility, but they've stayed exactly the same for millions of years without developing further--and being in water I think is limiting too.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once.
I think, and only think, that it only ever happened once.
I don't know if I'd go so far as "once," but I agree that the exobiologists are way too optimistic in their calculations of technologically advanced civilizations out there. We focus too much on the evolution of intelligence, and tend to downplay the importance of our dexterous hands. We ultimately have those because trees evolved on our planet. If it weren't for the evolution of trees, I wouldn't be typing on a keyboard right now.
Then you've got the probability of one arboreal group of creatures going with opposable thumbs and flat nails, rather than the great majority of arboreal creatures doing it with recurved claws. If squirrels suddenly got really smart, they still wouldn't evolve technology because they lack our dexterity.
We sent out a specific calling-card in 1945 when the first atomic bomb was exploded in New Mexico. This one single event could have served to make others "out there" sit-up and take notice of the intelligent life-forms on this planet and what we're capable of, officially putting humanity "on the grid" so to speak. These "others" probably have a knack for bending space-time and simply baby-stepping to our front door to observe and possibly interfere.
For anyone on the outside and possessing the capability of coming here, planets such as the one we call home would undoubtedly be considered very precious and to be protected at any cost - that would apply for the life-forms living here as well, so interference in our lives in an effort to protect ourselves and the planet is a possibility.
One thing is for certain - for us to consider ourselves to be the "sole owners" of this planet is embarrassingly arrogant.
For anyone on the outside and possessing the capability of coming here, planets such as the one we call home would undoubtedly be considered very precious and to be protected at any cost - that would apply for the life-forms living here as well, so interference in our lives in an effort to protect ourselves and the planet is a possibility.
One thing is for certain - for us to consider ourselves to be the "sole owners" of this planet is embarrassingly arrogant.
QUOTE(SuperAwesome @ May 26 2009, 12:54 AM)
Question? ...ETs that are capable of visiting earth?
Answer? Yes.
Humans wouldnt be the most smartest things out there in the universe. We arent even the smartest on our own planet, well, not all of us.
But we can travel to other planets??? Fair enough, they might not be light years away but we can still do it and its only a matter of time before we work out how.
Answer? Yes.
Humans wouldnt be the most smartest things out there in the universe. We arent even the smartest on our own planet, well, not all of us.
But we can travel to other planets??? Fair enough, they might not be light years away but we can still do it and its only a matter of time before we work out how.
They might not be light years away?
I'm sorry, I find this very confusing? We know what planets lie within sight, and we have looked near 13 billion light years back through the Universe, E=MC2 has stood up to 100 years of battering and seems to be a fundamental, in which case nobody is planet hopping, not to mention, transmissions, for all the people looking and listening to the sky it seems awful quiet.
Space is awful big.. I think Douglas Noel Adams describes it best.
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space
If there was an Alien on the closest planet we know of that can support intelligent life, and he has a starship capable of light speed, he would have to have left when we were helping Neanderthals spear Mammoths to get here now.
First contact I believe would most likely be robotic. Not anal probing remote farmers.
Based on this, I am afraid it is extremely unlikely that Aliens can visit us.
Hi
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space
Peace
Tim
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space
Peace
Tim
QUOTE(RedRatSnake @ May 26 2009, 11:46 AM)
Hi
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space
Peace
Tim
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space
Peace
Tim
Quoted from:
Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy
QUOTE(vilnoori @ Apr 3 2009, 11:50 PM)
Um, well, I don't think Einstein's findings about the speed of light can be broken. So I don't think it is likely that ET's that people allege to be exeriencing are from outer space per se. But I think that interdimensional travel or time travel might be possible in future, and in fact I think that a lot of people's experiences through history with spiritual beings might go under that category.
I believe not long ago (in the last few years) that there were some successful experiments to send light photons from "point A" to "point B" at greater than the speed of light. Therefore if we can do that I can't honestly tell myself or anyone else that there is no one somewhere out there that can't do more. And that leaves the door open to potential "E.T. visits in my mind anyway.
Allen
QUOTE(millpondmonster @ May 26 2009, 01:04 PM)
I believe not long ago (in the last few years) that there were some successful experiments to send light photons from "point A" to "point B" at greater than the speed of light. Therefore if we can do that I can't honestly tell myself or anyone else that there is no one somewhere out there that can't do more. And that leaves the door open to potential "E.T. visits in my mind anyway.
Allen
Allen
I think you will find they used several beams to make an illusion that the light speed barrier was surpassed, but it has not been. Nothing with matter can even reach light speed. It's not a mindset, it is mathematics, the universal language.
As much as some people (not refering to anyone here) like to think that we, as the human race, know everything there is to know about the laws of physics and how they apply to our current understanding of the universe. I believe that knowledge is not finite and we may have very much yet to discover. Just think how much mankind has developed over the last 200 years and compare that timeframe to the scope of an infinite universe.
Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a whole helluva lot more going on than we can comprehend or fathom.
Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a whole helluva lot more going on than we can comprehend or fathom.
QUOTE(psyche101 @ May 25 2009, 10:18 PM)
I think you will find they used several beams to make an illusion that the light speed barrier was surpassed, but it has not been. Nothing with matter can even reach light speed. It's not a mindset, it is mathematics, the universal language.
Well I've been wrong before, add another one to the list....
But I do believe that there is potential for other life to be out there and smart enough to get here. Also I don't think it HAS to be life as we know it. Life developed here to fit the conditions that exist here. On other planets life could and would develop to fit the conditions that exist there, whatever those conditions may be. Now whether or now they got here who knows I can't say they have, but I can't say they haven't. If they did how would we know what is important to them. Maybe they don't care one little bit that we see a flickering light or some steaking object doing strange things in the sky above us from time to time. who knows??????????
It's been a long day time for bed, take care, Allen
Hi
Give it time and someone will always come along with a better way to do things,
Peace
Tim
Give it time and someone will always come along with a better way to do things,
Peace
Tim
Douglas Adams! (sigh) I so wish he hadn't left us so soon...
I guess all you'd need is a ship with an infinite improbability drive...
I guess all you'd need is a ship with an infinite improbability drive...
QUOTE(CrimsonGoblin @ May 26 2009, 01:38 PM)
As much as some people (not refering to anyone here) like to think that we, as the human race, know everything there is to know about the laws of physics and how they apply to our current understanding of the universe. I believe that knowledge is not finite and we may have very much yet to discover. Just think how much mankind has developed over the last 200 years and compare that timeframe to the scope of an infinite universe.
Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a whole helluva lot more going on than we can comprehend or fathom.
Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a whole helluva lot more going on than we can comprehend or fathom.
A dig?
It is not about humans knowing everything.
It is about working in with mother nature and doing what you can with the boundaries she sets, as she is one tough biatch and does not bend for anyone, it is being humble and living within ones means, not imagining some grandiose species that must be more advanced than us and can show us dumb plebs the way?
I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either.
Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are. Hoping someone smarter out there has broken laws that cannot be broken in this realm does not seem to me to be positive, nor productive. Nor does there seems any reason to hope such a scenario can or would exist. What about transmission? There are a lot of people with radios, and radio telescopes. Why can nobody on the planet hear a thing? We can make out residual background noise fro the big bang? We can hear pulsars light years away? E=MC2 seems pretty sound, why would it be wrong?
And, the Universe is not infinite. Its about 13 and a half billion years old and at least 27 billion light years across.
QUOTE(millpondmonster @ May 26 2009, 01:45 PM)
Well I've been wrong before, add another one to the list....
But I do believe that there is potential for other life to be out there and smart enough to get here. Also I don't think it HAS to be life as we know it. Life developed here to fit the conditions that exist here. On other planets life could and would develop to fit the conditions that exist there, whatever those conditions may be. Now whether or now they got here who knows I can't say they have, but I can't say they haven't. If they did how would we know what is important to them. Maybe they don't care one little bit that we see a flickering light or some steaking object doing strange things in the sky above us from time to time. who knows??????????
It's been a long day time for bed, take care, Allen
But I do believe that there is potential for other life to be out there and smart enough to get here. Also I don't think it HAS to be life as we know it. Life developed here to fit the conditions that exist here. On other planets life could and would develop to fit the conditions that exist there, whatever those conditions may be. Now whether or now they got here who knows I can't say they have, but I can't say they haven't. If they did how would we know what is important to them. Maybe they don't care one little bit that we see a flickering light or some steaking object doing strange things in the sky above us from time to time. who knows??????????
It's been a long day time for bed, take care, Allen
Hi Allen
Heck, it's a big learning curve, space is one we all take for granted. I suppose I got a slightly better understanding when I took on astronomy as a hobby. The BBC series SPACE with Sam Neil is a good watch too. It conveys the astounding distances well.
But I agree in that life must exist out these somewhere, it would be interesting to see what it is like. I do not subscribe to the "It must look different" theory. I think the chances they would look very anthropomorphic are equal. Convergent evolution has prepared many surprises, consider the Thylcine and the Wolf. The anthropomorphic design is a very successful one and combined with intelligence lead us to be top of the food chain. Life as we know it seems dependent on water, so we have common ground to begin with and if the theory of panspermia is correct, there sees a good chance we will have some hominid cousins out in the galaxy. SETI listening for 30 years (along with millions of amateur enthusiasts) has produced no more than the WOW! signal, and impressive as WOW! is, it was a one of. So does that mean nobody within 30 light years has a transmitter? It is a remote part of the Galaxy when compared to some globular clusters. We just may be a little too out of the way for a visit. Should all the ships not be heard? Or could you only hear them if FTL travel was a possibility? To me, the deafening silence means Einstein stumbled on a fundamental at the very least.
A good speculate is the movie Alien Planet - Link George Lucas even did the effects! Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku offer some viewpoints as well.
Interesting subject isn't it!
Cheers.
QUOTE(vilnoori @ May 26 2009, 02:39 PM)
Douglas Adams! (sigh) I so wish he hadn't left us so soon...
I guess all you'd need is a ship with an infinite improbability drive...
I guess all you'd need is a ship with an infinite improbability drive...
Agreed, he will be missed, yet remembered fondly.
I love the infinite probability drive
Great concept.We still have Star Trek, perhaps we can borrow a Warp engine?
Alcubierre drive - Link
Excellent then...and there was no dig, just my personal thoughts and feelings on the subject. I'll shut up 'cause apparently I ain't smart enought for ya.
I've never read a book on UFO's and I am by no means a UFO buff but I have been fortunate enough to have twice seen in the night skies what I would consider a UFO. I've seen a large glowing green object descending towards the ground and I've seen rapid zigzagging lights in the sky on a stary night. Call me a liar or a crackpot, I could care less but it was enough to open my mind and make me a believer. Too bad Einstein never had the opportunity.
I've never read a book on UFO's and I am by no means a UFO buff but I have been fortunate enough to have twice seen in the night skies what I would consider a UFO. I've seen a large glowing green object descending towards the ground and I've seen rapid zigzagging lights in the sky on a stary night. Call me a liar or a crackpot, I could care less but it was enough to open my mind and make me a believer. Too bad Einstein never had the opportunity.
QUOTE(CrimsonGoblin @ May 26 2009, 04:07 PM)
Excellent then...and there was no dig, just my personal thoughts and feelings on the subject. I'll shut up 'cause apparently I ain't smart enought for ya.
I've never read a book on UFO's and I am by no means a UFO buff but I have been fortunate enough to have twice seen in the night skies what I would consider a UFO. I've seen a large glowing green object descending towards the ground and I've seen rapid zigzagging lights in the sky on a stary night. Call me a liar or a crackpot, I could care less but it was enough to open my mind and make me a believer. Too bad Einstein never had the opportunity.
I've never read a book on UFO's and I am by no means a UFO buff but I have been fortunate enough to have twice seen in the night skies what I would consider a UFO. I've seen a large glowing green object descending towards the ground and I've seen rapid zigzagging lights in the sky on a stary night. Call me a liar or a crackpot, I could care less but it was enough to open my mind and make me a believer. Too bad Einstein never had the opportunity.
I honestly thought (not refering to anyone here) sounded like one.......??
Don't shut up, speak out and discuss the possibilities, like I said to Allen, space is just over our heads, and we grow up with it just there one tends to take it for granted, the distances are like nothing we ever deal with, so it is very hard to "wrap ones head around the concept". Not devoting your time to studying space does not make one stupid, I have no doubt there are many things you could teach me, and vice versa. That is the main reason I haunt places like this. I have an interest and a hobby in space, hopefully I can share a little of the wonders I have seen. I look up an awful lot. I find it interesting to share. I use a 10" Dobsonian for star gazing, looks something like
A lot of bang for your buck with those babies.
And as a matter of fact, such lights are indeed a massive enigma. The Hessdalen valley in Norway is famous for such anomalies. LINK Black ops and automated drones no doubt account for a large portion of just such, but not all, the remaining percentage is as intriguing and enigmatic as ever. I just don't think they are aliens is all, because of what I know of space and also physics, which I needed to study for my trade.
Aliens must exist, and we do have UFO's but they are not one and the same. A very interesting fellow by the name Jaques Vallee has some astounding theories, have you ever read his stuff? Pretty mind blowing to say the least! Other dimensions and all that. I don't take much stock in dimensional theories, but Vallee is worth a listen.
I don't think you are a crackpot, but give me time!
(JK)
QUOTE(psyche101 @ May 26 2009, 01:33 AM)
It is about working in with mother nature and doing what you can with the boundaries she sets, as she is one tough biatch and does not bend for anyone, it is being humble and living within ones means, not imagining some grandiose species that must be more advanced than us and can show us dumb plebs the way?
I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either.
Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are. Hoping someone smarter out there has broken laws that cannot be broken in this realm does not seem to me to be positive, nor productive. Nor does there seems any reason to hope such a scenario can or would exist.
I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either.
Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are. Hoping someone smarter out there has broken laws that cannot be broken in this realm does not seem to me to be positive, nor productive. Nor does there seems any reason to hope such a scenario can or would exist.
I'm glad your way of thinking isn't the norm - if it were, we'd still be stuck on this rock 100 years from now, still wallowing in our own ignorance. As humans, we're intelligent, extremely clever, naturally inquisitive and have a strong will to explore - those are some of the qualities which will drive us to reach out and find new ways of doing things.
You speak as though anyone who understands that intelligent life that simply must exist elsewhere, and who also realizes that life may be light years ahead of us in technological advancements and may in fact have the ability to come here, are the equivalent of those poor kids in Mad Max waiting on "Captain Walker" to come fix the plane and fly them back to "Tomorrow Morrow Land" - a ridiculous analogy.
I've seen no one advocating "sit(ting) around for centuries dreaming of things achieved by others that might exist elsewhere" - quite the contrary, actually. We've came a long way in the last 100 years, especially in the last 60, and we've still got a long way to go, but new research that's taking place as we speak could have a major impact our understanding of the universe and how better to manipulate it for our own needs, and possibly even a much clearer understanding of our very own existence.
Just a mere 87 years ago we were steaming a ship across the Atlantic which was hailed as "Unsinkable", and a scant 47 years before that we were killing each other in the rural fields and meadows of this country and carting off the dead in wooden-wheeled wagons. Jump ahead to today and the advances we've made are astounding - just think where we'll be in another 87 years.
I'd love to be around in another 50 years to see how your statement of "I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either. Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are.". will be fairing. I'd say it'll be very similar to other bad predictions, such as these:
QUOTE
* "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." -- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
* "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.
* "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876.
* "The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys." -- Sir William Preece, chief engineer of the British Post Office, 1876.
* "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" -- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.
* "While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility." -- Lee DeForest, inventor.
* "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" -- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.
* "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." -- Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With the Wind."
* "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." -- Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.
* "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
* "Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax." -- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, British scientist, 1899.
* "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" -- Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
* "It will be years -- not in my time -- before a woman will become Prime Minister." -- Margaret Thatcher, 1974.
* "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.
* "With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the U.S. market." -- Business Week, August 2, 1968.
* "That Professor Goddard with his 'chair' in Clark College and the countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution does not know the relation of action to reaction, and of the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react--to say that would be absurd. Of course, he only seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." -- 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work. The remark was retracted in the July 17, 1969 issue.
* "Ours has been the first, and doubtless to be the last, to visit this profitless locality." -- Lt. Joseph Ives, after visiting the Grand Canyon in 1861.
* "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." -- Workers whom Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859.
* "There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." -- Albert Einstein, 1932.
* "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project.
* "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." -- Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.
* "There will never be a bigger plane built." -- A Boeing engineer, after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane that holds ten people.
* "Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Attributed to Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899, but known to be an urban legend.
* "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." -- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872.
* "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." -- Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.
* "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.
* "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876.
* "The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys." -- Sir William Preece, chief engineer of the British Post Office, 1876.
* "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" -- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.
* "While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility." -- Lee DeForest, inventor.
* "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" -- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.
* "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." -- Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With the Wind."
* "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." -- Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.
* "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
* "Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax." -- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, British scientist, 1899.
* "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" -- Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
* "It will be years -- not in my time -- before a woman will become Prime Minister." -- Margaret Thatcher, 1974.
* "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.
* "With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the U.S. market." -- Business Week, August 2, 1968.
* "That Professor Goddard with his 'chair' in Clark College and the countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution does not know the relation of action to reaction, and of the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react--to say that would be absurd. Of course, he only seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." -- 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work. The remark was retracted in the July 17, 1969 issue.
* "Ours has been the first, and doubtless to be the last, to visit this profitless locality." -- Lt. Joseph Ives, after visiting the Grand Canyon in 1861.
* "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." -- Workers whom Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859.
* "There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." -- Albert Einstein, 1932.
* "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project.
* "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." -- Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.
* "There will never be a bigger plane built." -- A Boeing engineer, after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane that holds ten people.
* "Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Attributed to Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899, but known to be an urban legend.
* "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." -- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872.
* "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." -- Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.
Speaking of Einstein, I'll betcha that if he were alive today, he'd disagree with your statement of "Things are just the way they are" - in fact, I'd say he'd be chomping at the bit to throw the switch on the new LHC.
If we're here, then why not them?
QUOTE(Volsquatch @ May 26 2009, 11:51 PM)
I'm glad your way of thinking isn't the norm - if it were, we'd still be stuck on this rock 100 years from now, still wallowing in our own ignorance. As humans, we're intelligent, extremely clever, naturally inquisitive and have a strong will to explore - those are some of the qualities which will drive us to reach out and find new ways of doing things.
Absolutely correct, and a new approach is needed, bashing our heads against the wall of trying to overcome such immense distances with speed is impossible. The distances are not only too vast, but ever increasing.
Wasting time on FTL travel is only holding us back, 100 years of battering E=MC2 has got nobody nowhere. Might be time to move on and get out of that rut?
There is thorough investigation, and then there is just wasting time.
QUOTE(Volsquatch @ May 26 2009, 11:51 PM)
You speak as though anyone who understands that intelligent life that simply must exist elsewhere, and who also realizes that life may be light years ahead of us in technological advancements and may in fact have the ability to come here, are the equivalent of those poor kids in Mad Max waiting on "Captain Walker" to come fix the plane and fly them back to "Tomorrow Morrow Land" - a ridiculous analogy.
Not at all, I only feel people who are sure FTL travel is possible without reasoning are simply pie in the sky idealists. I just don't see the point in such musings. We have some thing to work with, but throw that out in the hope someone will stumble on a fairy tale? That I think is ridiculous. Considering E=MC2 it is more likely that FTL travel is not possible than the alternate analogy. At least E=MC2 is something to work with.
QUOTE(Volsquatch @ May 26 2009, 11:51 PM)
I've seen no one advocating "sit(ting) around for centuries dreaming of things achieved by others that might exist elsewhere" - quite the contrary, actually. We've came a long way in the last 100 years, especially in the last 60, and we've still got a long way to go, but new research that's taking place as we speak could have a major impact our understanding of the universe and how better to manipulate it for our own needs, and possibly even a much clearer understanding of our very own existence.
You mean standing on the shoulders of Giants? Yet you turf E=MC2 for a fantasy? Interesting. Rather a conflicting set of conditions wouldn't you say?
QUOTE(Volsquatch @ May 26 2009, 11:51 PM)
Just a mere 87 years ago we were steaming a ship across the Atlantic which was hailed as "Unsinkable", and a scant 47 years before that we were killing each other in the rural fields and meadows of this country and carting off the dead in wooden-wheeled wagons. Jump ahead to today and the advances we've made are astounding - just think where we'll be in another 87 years.
I'd love to be around in another 50 years to see how your statement of "I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either. Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are.". will be fairing. I'd say it'll be very similar to other, such as these:
I'd love to be around in another 50 years to see how your statement of "I suppose you could sit around for centuries and dream of greater things achieved by others that might exist, but that wont traverse the light barrier either. Some things are impossible. Things just are what they are.". will be fairing. I'd say it'll be very similar to other, such as these:
And 10 billion years ago water required Hydrogen and Oxygen to exist. A fundamental equation, which as it happens, seems to apply to every elemental substance? They all have absolutes? Light is not matter. This is a very different playing field altogether.
Some things are impossible. As soon as you can humble yourself to accept that, a whole new world opens up again. Amazingly enough, we mighty humans are not capable of all feats wondered and imagined.
QUOTE(Volsquatch @ May 26 2009, 11:51 PM)
Speaking of Einstein, I'll betcha that if he were alive today, he'd disagree with your statement of "Things are just the way they are" - in fact, I'd say he'd be chomping at the bit to throw the switch on the new LHC.
I would love to ask him. Shame it is not possible, in fact, I'd be interested on his take on this exchange of ideas.
I'd be chomping at the bit to throw the switch at the LHC. Problem is modern science that we are so proud of has offered us the means to understand the Universe,,,,,, and how darn big it is. Some imagined things just cannot be accomplished.
Every example you put forward was overcome by science. None violated physical laws, each and every one is personal opinion. There is a difference. Even Einstein's quote says how to do it, he just cannot imagine doing it himself. There is no "how" to FTL travel, laws say otherwise.
QUOTE(twinkletoes @ May 27 2009, 02:39 AM)
If we're here, then why not them?
I am sure they exist, but the title ET's/UFO's = No. We have ET's, and we have UFO's. They do not mean the same thing.
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