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slabdog
It is currently -4 degrees here in my corner of the Midwest. Wind chill is nearly -12.

cold.gif

As I stared at my frozen two dog-sicles waiting near the sliding glass door longing to come in after a long awaited back-yard break, I find myself pondering how it would be possible for a large North American primate to possibly survive a typical winter in Nebraska, Montana, South or North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan, Colorado Wyoming...etc..etc..etc.

Having visited the Pacific NW in the winter, I can understand how it would be possible in that particular winter environment (rather mild winters once you get out of the higher mountain areas). However, after nearly having my eyeballs freeze shut yesterday while taking my kids sledding ( we took one ride before scrapping the effort due to extreme cold)...I just don't think it would be possible for a large hairy primate to survive in extreme winter weather.

unless one of three things are true:

1. BF simply does not exist in these areas, if at all.

or

2. All Northern / Midwest / Rocky Mountain US and Canadian BF's migrate south (kind of hard for me to believe).

or

3. Like Bears (who do not actually hibernate...but instead winter sleeps), BFs store up a massive amount of calories just prior to the deep freeze then engages in a deep sleep during coldest winter months, awakening every once and a while to stumble around or forage for food.

The third possibility might explain why there are some reports of both lanky lean BFs and thick heavy BFs. It could depend on where they live and what time of year it is. It could also explain why footprints are not as often found in snow fall (that's just an anecdotal conclusion on my part).

But if #3 is a possibility, then where would they engage in this deep winter sleep?


Would they find a cave? Would they make a shelter? Would they dig a cave?

After a tad bit of internet research, I was interested to learn that animals that hibernate actually drop their body temperature to a few degrees from freezing, breathe only once every few minutes and reduce their heart rate of one beat every minute.

Bears in winter sleep however, do not drop their body temp lower than a few degrees and are simply sleeping in a state normal to their normal awake state.
Huntster
I'm pretty confident that sasquatches go into a period of dormancy similar to brown bears.

And it's not uncommon for brown bears to be out roaming around in the bitter cold of late November in coastal Alaska, as well as up and moving as early as mid-March, especially boars.
billgreen2005bigfoot
in my honest opinion everyone i think sasquatches like some wildlife do some sort hibernate or sleep in forests but we need find more evidence of that in caves or mines . updates as it continues. awesome new thread indeed. good wintery afternoon new_specool.gif cold.gif iagree.gif
RayG
This very elusive critter has been spotted, or fresh tracks found in December, January, or February, in some very cold areas. For example,

December 5, 2006, north of Brockville, Ontario, 8-9 ft tall creature glimpsed running behind a sign,
http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=16853

December15, 2006, Kent county, MI, snowing, sighting of 8-9 foot tall creature, tracks found
http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=01554

January 23, 2008, Farmington, Washington
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/FarmingtonWA08.htm

January, 2004, Scott county, MN
http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=01026

January, 1995, Grant county, WI, tracks found in snow
http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=00545

January, 2002, Eskanaba county, MI, pair of eyes spotted from about 30 feet away, 7-8 high
http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=00866

January, 2005, Jackson county, MI, large, man-like thing seen running into the woods
http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=01055

February, 1977, northwest of Drayton Valley, Alberta, footprints in snow
http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=1404

February 12, 1976, near Slave Lake, Alberta, bigfoot ran through the snow at great speed
http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=10775

If this critter hibernates it's neither man-like nor ape-like.

RayG
billgreen2005bigfoot
hey rayg WOWW... very informative above reply.
COGrizzly
RayG - Thanks for the leg-work! Why do you say if it hibernates, its neither ape or man like, if you don't mind me asking?

I saw tracks in February, very cold time of year in CO.

slabdog - This question pops up here every so often. I think I even asked it about 6 months ago.

Deer, elk and moose seem to survive. Do mountain lions hibernate? Plus, what about the definition of hiber.....ah, forget it, I'll go get that link, save all this typing!
Rod
QUOTE(Huntster @ Dec 21 2008, 11:22 AM) *
I'm pretty confident that sasquatches go into a period of dormancy similar to brown bears.

And it's not uncommon for brown bears to be out roaming around in the bitter cold of late November in coastal Alaska, as well as up and moving as early as mid-March, especially boars.



Does any other 'ape', hibernate.....or are we once again giving Bigfoot uniques traits to help explain away why no solid evidence...... whistling.gif
COGrizzly
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?sho...mp;hl=hibernate

slabdog - There ya go. Pretty fun discussion. I know I sure would not want to be out there right now. -2. Got home last night late and after all that wind and what not on 84, Dad gets the car stuck in the driveway because of a drift! Had to shovel it out this morning! Freakin COLD out there!

So, I don't know if they "hibernate" or not, but even with a bunch of hair, it'd still be mighty cold! B-u-t, for all we know, they may actually LIKE the cold??????!!!!
RayG
QUOTE(COGrizzly @ Dec 21 2008, 03:13 PM) *
Why do you say if it hibernates, its neither ape or man like, if you don't mind me asking?


Because neither men nor apes hibernate. To my knowledge the only hibernating primate is the 5 ounce Lemur of Madagascar. However, because bigfoot has never been closely studied, anyone can speculate anything until the cows come home.

QUOTE(Rod @ Dec 21 2008, 03:17 PM) *
Does any other 'ape', hibernate.....or are we once again giving Bigfoot uniques traits to help explain away why no solid evidence...... whistling.gif


No (see link above), and yes, apparently so.

RayG
norcal logger
QUOTE(COGrizzly @ Dec 21 2008, 03:13 PM) *
Do mountain lions hibernate?


Not around here.
This story definately rates high on my favorite story list. Dead of winter. 7000+'. Above timberline. Back country ski mountaineering. Snow kind of old. We were on a very flat topped mountain that had an abrupt and steep face. We found multiple sets of cat tracks heading back and forth from the face. None of us had ever heard of a cat that high up especially in winter. Pretty strange. scratchhead.gif So we followed the tracks over to the edge and it became very clear what was going on. He was playing. He would run across the flat then leap onto the face and slide on down the mountain. He'd done this over and over. Must of been having a really good time. yahoo.gif
Rod
QUOTE(norcal logger @ Dec 21 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Not around here.
This story definately rates high on my favorite story list. Dead of winter. 7000+'. Above timberline. Back country ski mountaineering. Snow kind of old. We were on a very flat topped mountain that had an abrupt and steep face. We found multiple sets of cat tracks heading back and forth from the face. None of us had ever heard of a cat that high up especially in winter. Pretty strange. scratchhead.gif So we followed the tracks over to the edge and it became very clear what was going on. He was playing. He would run across the flat then leap onto the face and slide on down the mountain. He'd done this over and over. Must of been having a really good time. yahoo.gif



What a cool story Norc......I've missed you mate.. thumbup.gif
COGrizzly
QUOTE(norcal logger @ Dec 21 2008, 07:08 PM) *
Not around here.
This story definately rates high on my favorite story list. Dead of winter. 7000+'. Above timberline. Back country ski mountaineering. Snow kind of old. We were on a very flat topped mountain that had an abrupt and steep face. We found multiple sets of cat tracks heading back and forth from the face. None of us had ever heard of a cat that high up especially in winter. Pretty strange. scratchhead.gif So we followed the tracks over to the edge and it became very clear what was going on. He was playing. He would run across the flat then leap onto the face and slide on down the mountain. He'd done this over and over. Must of been having a really good time. yahoo.gif


Brown Bears do that a lot too. Way to go on figuring out what that cat was up to.
slabdog
QUOTE(COGrizzly @ Dec 21 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I saw tracks in February, very cold time of year in CO.

slabdog - This question pops up here every so often. I think I even asked it about 6 months ago.

Deer, elk and moose seem to survive. Do mountain lions hibernate? Plus, what about the definition of hiber.....ah, forget it, I'll go get that link, save all this typing!


Dang it....sorry if this has been hashed out in the past. I tried searching for it before I posted.

Looking back, I think I probably must have misspelled "hybernate" on the search

bonk.gif

I don't disagree that BFs would probably engage in limited travel in the cold and snow....but you would think that there would be many more tracks located, virtually everyday, if they were very active and traveling when snow if on the ground.

And yes, deer and elk and moose all survive in the bitter cold. But their feet "hooves" are designed for such weather. I would imagine they aren't even close to being what a BFs foot pads should be (a thick nail without nerve endings or potential of frostbite as opposed to a thick flesh padded foot with nerve endings and frost bite potential)
Huntster
QUOTE(RayG @ Dec 21 2008, 09:27 AM) *
This very elusive critter has been spotted, or fresh tracks found in December, January, or February, in some very cold areas. .......


That is true.

However, it's also true of brown bears.

QUOTE
......If this critter hibernates it's neither man-like nor ape-like.


Like brown bears and men, it doesn't hibernate.

However, like men and brown bears, it's likely more dormant in winter than summer.



Rod
Hey Hunster...Do you know of any other ape...ape/human that hibernates?.....hello!....Hunster....are you out there in the ether?
Teresa
If they hibernate you'd think sightings would shut off during their hibernation period but that doesn't seem to be the case. The year-around sightings seem to work against the hibernation theory.

BobZenor
I don't wish to get into the semantics if it is called hibernation or not. What I am describing isn't. Going dormant probably isn't much of an evolutionary feat. It could drop its temperature a few degrees. I have even heard of some primitive (as in didn't sleep in houses) people that slept outside and exposed in near freezing weather and their bodies typically dropped a few degrees. They were used to it. The people were aborigines and natives from Tierra del Fuego I believe. Unfortunately it was too long ago for me to remember where I heard it. Even if not true it wouldn't seem to be unreasonable to think an ape could evolve that. Your metabolism drops 10 to 20 percent per degree and a few degrees more could probably be managed with no harm done. If the species needed to, it might squeeze out a few more degrees. Humans become confused if the temperature drops more than a couple of degrees so I doubt it would be much.

I rather doubt they go dormant but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It seems like they might be very vulnerable if the went too dormant for too long.
mojo1963
Since neither a human nor an ape hibernate or den, I would guess that they do not. After all, according to all accounts, they are either ape or human like or both. So, that's my "SWAG".

I'd speculate that they spend more time in semi-permanent or permanent dwellings during colder months but still wander out for food and water. As it's been said many times, we humans are not out and about as much in the winter, so the sightings are fewer. During warmer months, I'd guess they spend more time in temporary shelters as they hunt and seek to mate.

As we all know, there is so much dense forest areas where humans rarely tread, this is where they likely spend most of their time. I think they're intelligent enough to avoid areas frequented by humans as much as possible. Although food sources probably bring them closer than they'd like.

When I go out, it's sometimes depressing to see how vast and far reaching the wilderness is when I'm hoping for a glimse. That coupled with how rare I think they are, it makes even more frustrating.

Heck, even if you don't catch a glimse, there's all that beautiful wilderness and fresh air to enjoy. So, it's never a complete loss! Just enjoy the great outdoors and be prepared............ just in case!

Regards,
Mojo....




Huntster
QUOTE(Rod @ Dec 21 2008, 07:34 PM) *
Hey Hunster...hello!....Hunster....are you out there in the ether?


Yup.

QUOTE
.....Do you know of any other ape...ape/human that hibernates?.....


Nope.

So? Black bear adults climb trees and brown bear adults don't.
Huntster
QUOTE(BobZenor @ Dec 21 2008, 08:08 PM) *
I don't wish to get into the semantics if it is called hibernation or not. What I am describing isn't. Going dormant probably isn't much of an evolutionary feat. It could drop its temperature a few degrees.....


Despite lots of information out there regarding the differences in black and brown bears in this regard, as well as the many threads on this forum on it, most folks still don't understand that.

QUOTE
......I have even heard of some primitive (as in didn't sleep in houses) people that slept outside and exposed in near freezing weather and their bodies typically dropped a few degrees. They were used to it. The people were aborigines and natives from Tierra del Fuego I believe. Unfortunately it was too long ago for me to remember where I heard it. Even if not true it wouldn't seem to be unreasonable to think an ape could evolve that. Your metabolism drops 10 to 20 percent per degree and a few degrees more could probably be managed with no harm done......


I can clearly state that people in northern latitudes definately go through a more noticable "dormant" period in winter than southern people do.

We tend to stay in our "dens" more. We sleep more (it's dark all the time). We don't go out as often. We even get "cabin fever".

Same with brown bears, especially boars. Clearly, sows that bear young in the den in January/February don't leave until later in the spring. Boars often don't even think about denning until late November or early December and arise in March, and often come out in mid-winter for a stroll (looking for something to eat).

This is no secret. Look at the cover of the ADFG hunting regs. This monster was shot in late November in 7 below 0 cold.

QUOTE
.....I rather doubt they go dormant but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It seems like they might be very vulnerable if the went too dormant for too long.


I'm relatively certain they go dormant in northern latitudes and likely don't in more southerly latitudes (northern California), just like brown bears.
Rod
QUOTE(Huntster @ Dec 21 2008, 11:42 PM) *
Yup.
Nope.

So? Black bear adults climb trees and brown bear adults don't.



Your as slippery as a bar of soap Hunster.....bears have got Zip to do with Bigfoot/Apes.....On one hand your telling me that we have proof that large bipedal apes walked the globe(correct) and therefore that is evidence that Bigfoot exists or existed(incorrect)...then you go take a walk outside of the box and claim that Bigfoot hibernates, yet no other ape does that....Sheeesh...you right the rules as you go Hunster....If it was not Xmas time and the season to be bloody merry.... I tellya Hunster...I tellsya........ new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
norcal logger
QUOTE(slabdog @ Dec 21 2008, 10:32 PM) *
And yes, deer and elk and moose all survive in the bitter cold. But their feet "hooves" are designed for such weather. I would imagine they aren't even close to being what a BFs foot pads should be (a thick nail without nerve endings or potential of frostbite as opposed to a thick flesh padded foot with nerve endings and frost bite potential)


I know a guy here in our town that used to do a lot of high altitude mountaineering when he was young. Tough as nails. He used to walk around in bare feet all year, even in winter snow. He'd go on backpack trips in his bare feet. It doesn't usually get all that cold here but way too cold for me to go bare foot. I will say that the bottom of his feet looked like elephant hide.

I suppose BF have feet like that too. And a lot more hair. Here in the Sierras there's lots of deep canyons that don't get nearly the snow of the surrounding peaks and the deer migrate down into them. Also plenty of trout and they're easy to catch with your hands so food wouldn't be much of a problem. Still, with good shelter the temptation to sleep would be there.

'Course they could just fly on down to Meh- hee- co and relax on some secluded beach. Who knows?
damndirtyape
Ungulates (deer, elk) have thick matted hollow hair that insulates them from the cold plus they are herd animals and pack in close together to cut wind when need be. Probably a lot of natural gas as well, if you know what I mean. They also eat pine needles, which is high in Glycerin, which is a natural antifreeze... poisonous to most but is used by ungulates. Great apes do process their food and treat maladies with herbal remedies. Great apes can eat minerals that counteract poisons and coat harmful plant skins for ingestion.

In milder climates such as Washington State, black bears don't hibernate but they do fall into a torpid state. Sort of like sleep walking where the brain shuts off all except for important survival activity. There are many places that Bigfoot could go to get out of the cold and I don't mean a cave. They should be able to get to lower elevations or latitudes when need be. They probably can read what weather is on the way better than any meteorologist on our local news programs can and so get prepared by running ahead of it or hunkering down. There are many old tree stumps that have their cores burned out black that one of these creatures could climb into, stuff the opening with various loose foliage and sit in comfort. They could even hollow them out with their fingers. There are some caves but they are usually wet and cold up here. There are also some abandoned mines and tunnels, where a couple of Bigfoot reports have come out of. Rock screes can also be tunneled into.
damndirtyape
Maybe this is how we will finally get an attrition specimen.
Huntster
QUOTE(Rod @ Dec 21 2008, 09:24 PM) *
Your as slippery as a bar of soap Hunster.....bears have got Zip to do with Bigfoot/Apes.....


And you're as predictable as all other denialists.

You like to use the "no-apes-hibernate" argument, and want to dodge the fact that no known apes inhabit northern latitudes where dormancy is a common tactic to deal with an absence of food. Bears do it, bears are omnivorous (like sasquatches are reported to be), and bears (like sasquatch reports) are exclusively known in the northern hemisphere (with the exception of the sloth bear and sun bear, both of which don't hibernate).

Bears clearly have quite a lot of similarities with sasquatches. In fact, people (denialists?) like to claim that sasquatch sightings are bear misidentifications.

QUOTE
......On one hand your telling me that we have proof that large bipedal apes walked the globe(correct) and therefore that is evidence that Bigfoot exists or existed(incorrect)...


You're misquoting me again. That is not evidence that Bigfoot exists or existed. It's proof that creatures just like sasquatches once existed, and that is unlike other "X Creatures" like extraterrestrial aliens and mermaids.

QUOTE
.....then you go take a walk outside of the box and claim that Bigfoot hibernates, yet no other ape does that....


Read the words slowly and carefully, "mate":

QUOTE
I'm pretty confident that sasquatches go into a period of dormancy similar to brown bears.

And it's not uncommon for brown bears to be out roaming around in the bitter cold of late November in coastal Alaska, as well as up and moving as early as mid-March, especially boars.


I do not believe sasquatches "hibernate", and I know fully well that brown bears do not hibernate.

QUOTE
....Sheeesh...you right the rules as you go Hunster....


I do not write the rules, but I do insist that the right rules apply to all of us equally. This is about fact, not rites.

All right?


QUOTE(norcal logger @ Dec 21 2008, 09:32 PM) *
[quote name='slabdog' date='Dec 21 2008, 10:32 PM' post='507290'

And yes, deer and elk and moose all survive in the bitter cold. But their feet "hooves" are designed for such weather. I would imagine they aren't even close to being what a BFs foot pads should be (a thick nail without nerve endings or potential of frostbite as opposed to a thick flesh padded foot with nerve endings and frost bite potential)
I know a guy here in our town that used to do a lot of high altitude mountaineering when he was young. Tough as nails. He used to walk around in bare feet all year, even in winter snow. He'd go on backpack trips in his bare feet. It doesn't usually get all that cold here but way too cold for me to go bare foot. I will say that the bottom of his feet looked like elephant hide.

I suppose BF have feet like that too.....


And, obviously, so must wolves, coyotes, foxes, cougars, and any number of other unhoofed critters that don't hibernate or go dormant in dens during the coldest part of the winter, but instead eek out a living all winter long in all kinds of weather.
Rod
What do you define as 'dormancy'...You definately have got to be a woman?......... icon_bang.gif icon_bang.gif
Huntster
QUOTE(damndirtyape @ Dec 22 2008, 07:31 PM) *
......In milder climates such as Washington State, black bears don't hibernate but they do fall into a torpid state.....


The famous and now extinct California grizzly, like the Mexican grizzly, both inhabited the southernmost extent of brown bear range and boars often didn't go dormant at all.
Huntster
QUOTE(Rod @ Dec 22 2008, 08:10 PM) *
What do you define as 'dormancy'...


Source:

QUOTE
......Over time, this lineage gradually evolved to adapt to the colder climates in the north. Among the more important adaptations were the ability to hibernate during periods of food shortage and the ability to store large amounts of fat.

Brown bears are generally considered to undergo four annual stages of biochemical and physiological change. 1) The dormant stage is termed winter sleep or hibernation and is discussed in greater detail in the chapter Form and Function. 2) A modified dormancy, termed walking hibernation, is a transitional stage between hibernation and normal activity. 3) During normal activity brown bears can not suddenly switch on the state of hibernation; if they are deprived of food they will begin to starve and utilize muscle tissue to survive. If deprived of water they will become dehydrated. During the normal state bears feed, sleep, defecate, urinate, and breed. 4) As the period of hibernation approaches, bears greatly increase their food intake in the stage called hyperphagia. The excess food is deposited as fat, or adipose tissue, and they gain weight. The layers of fat provide a source of energy during hibernation and insulate the bear from the cold. Fat is especially critical for the first few weeks after emergence from the den in spring when food is generally scarce, but the bear’s metabolic demands have increased.......


It all varies on the climate/food cycles. It isn't so much the temperature; it's what temperature does to it's food sources.

Thus, brown bears in their southermost ranges have food available longer, thus they go dormant/hibernate less. Brown bears on the North Slope of the Brooks Range (on the Arctic coastal plain, where winter lasts for most of the year), they will go dormant/hibernate longer.

Sows go dormant/hibernate for sure annually, because they bear young in the den, and nurse them until spring when the cubs are large enough to begin grazing.

Boars don't do this. They only go dormant/hibernate when food disappears, and will often emerge from their dens in southcentral Alaska in mid-winter and take a walk looking for food. If none is found, they'll go back into their den for another nap.

There is absolutely no reason why a bipedal ape who migrated north and adapted to northern habitat 10,000 years ago when the Bering Land Bridge was exposed would not do likewise, and remain in scant numbers, needing a very large range.
damndirtyape
Hibernation occurs with exposure to low temperatures and, under normal conditions, occurs principally during winter seasons when there are lengthy periods of low environmental temperatures. A related form of dormancy is known as estivation. Many animals estivate when they are exposed to prolonged periods of drought or during hot, dry summers. For all practical purposes, hibernation and estivation in animals are indistinguishable, except for the nature of the stimulus, which is either cold or an arid environment.

Many mammals and some birds spend at least part of the winter in hiding, but remain no more drowsy than in normal sleep. On the other hand, some mammals undergo a profound decrease in metabolic rate and physiological function during the winter, with a body temperature near 32°F (0°C). This condition, sometimes known as deep hibernation, is the only state in which the warm-blooded vertebrate, with its complex mechanisms for temperature control, abandons its warm-blooded state and chills to the temperature of the environment. Between the drowsy condition and deep hibernation are gradations about which little is known. The bear, skunk, raccoon, and badger are animals which become drowsy in winter. Although usually considered the typical hibernator, the bear's body temperature does not drop more than a few degrees.

The deep hibernators are confined to five orders of mammals: the marsupials, the Chiroptera or bats, the insectivores, the rodents, and, probably, the primates. Most, if not all, of the insect-eating bats of temperate climates not only hibernate in the winter, but also drop their body temperature when they roost and sleep. The advantage of this for a small mammal with a disproportionately large heat-losing surface is obvious when conservation of energy is considered. Many rodents are deep hibernators, including ground squirrels, woodchucks, dormice, and hamster. The fat-tailed and mouse lemurs are primates that hibernate or estivate. Among birds, the poorwill (Phalaenoptilus) and some hummingbirds and swifts undergo a lowering of body temperature and metabolic rate in cold periods.
__________________________________________________
Notice that the first discovery was only four years ago... this can be looked at in two ways:
  1. We don't know everything yet, and
  2. What other primates out there might hibernate or estivate

__________________________________________________

Lemur Is First Known Hibernating Primate, Study Says
James Owen in England
for National Geographic News
June 23, 2004


Madagascar, a large, tropical island off the east coast of Africa, isn't the kind of place you'd expect to find a mammal that hibernates. Yet researchers say a small, nocturnal lemur resorts to the same tactic used by bears, squirrels, and dormice to survive cold northern winters—spending at least seven months of the year hibernating through harsh times brought on by drought.

The German-based team say their study is the only report of prolonged hibernation in a tropical mammal. Furthermore, writing in this week's scientific journal Nature, they claim the study provides the first proof of hibernation in any species of primate.

The study focused on the fat-tailed dwarf lemur (Cheirogaleus medius), one of a group of snout-faced primates for which Madagascar is famous. The island boasts some 32 lemur species, the highest percentage of indigenous primates anywhere on Earth.

The fat-tail dwarf lemur gorges on fruit, flowers, and insects during a short rainy season between December and February. As its body weight increases by around 40 percent, the lemur's tail swells massively with stored fat reserves. The animal, which usually weighs five ounces (150 grams), then goes into a torpor, marked by reduced activity and appetite.

Scientists previously noted that this cycle of behavior is most pronounced in western Madagascar, where the climate veers between extremes. Here the "fat-tail" was found to take to holes in tree trunks during prolonged periods of drought, when trees shed their leaves and food becomes scarce.

Led by scientists from Phillips University's animal physiology department in Marburg, Germany, the team revealed that the fat-tail's body temperature varied to an extent previously unknown in mammals. Daily fluctuations ranged almost 20 degrees Celsius (nearly 40 degrees Fahrenheit), with temperatures recorded from as low as 9.3 degrees Celsius (48.7 degrees Fahrenheit) to well over 30 degrees Celsius (86 degrees Fahrenheit).

Tree Holes

Body temperatures were found to correlate closely with how well each tree hole was insulated. The researchers say this suggests the lemurs body temperatures are regulated by external conditions, as with lizards and other reptiles, instead of being maintained internally.

"They follow changes in environmental temperature as if they were a piece of stone," said Gerhard Heldmaier, from Phillips University. This, he says, is potentially of great benefit, as it helps fat-tails conserve their fat reserves.

For reasons not fully understood, most hibernating mammals usually go through periods of arousal, when they bring their body temperatures up to normal levels. "This costs them a lot of energy," said Heldmaier. He added that the lemurs studied experienced body temperatures as high as 35.9 degrees C (97 degrees F) and didnt need to go through arousal during hibernation.

The researchers say the condition of hibernation should no longer be seen as synonymous with low body temperatures, as is presently the case.

They also state: "To our knowledge, our findings are the first physiological confirmation of prolonged hibernation by a tropical mammal, as well as the first proof of hibernation in a primate."

Heldmaier added, "Hibernation has nothing to do with the cold. What animals are coping with is a seasonal scarcity of food."

He is confident that future studies will show that other primates also go into hibernation. He nominates the potto—a loris from western and central Africa—as an example.

Kirindy Forest

Areas where fat-tailed dwarf lemurs resort to hibernation include the 25,000-acre (10,000-hectare) Kirindy Forest on the west-central coast of Madagascar. The focus of studies by the German Primate Center, based in Göttingen, Germany, the forest exhibits pronounced seasonal changes, with most of the trees dropping their leaves to conserve water during the long, dry season.

Other lemurs in the forest respond in similar ways to the fat-tail, according to Peter Kappeler, head of ethology and ecology at the center.

Writing in the American Museum of Natural History magazine, Natural History, Kappeler says female gray mouse lemurs may also hibernate for months, adding, "Like their fat-tailed cousins, [they] go through their complete reproductive cycle between late December and early February."

Meanwhile, Verreaux's sifakas— large, long-legged lemurs that leap high in the canopy—cope with the dry season through calorie-saving measures such as cutting distances traveled and sunbathing in the morning to bring body temperatures up.

Kappeler says the leaf-eating red-tailed sportive lemur also saves energy by reducing its activity level and metabolic rate.

He adds, "These primates offer scientists an opportunity to study how a group of related mammals respond to a range of environmental conditions—in this case, along the entire length of the world's fourth largest island."

However, scientists say they may not have long to make the most of this opportunity, because hunting and destruction of forests in this desperately poor country are putting the lemur's long-term future in jeopardy.
georgerm


Here in SW Oregon, the coast range is freezing cold and has 12'' of snow. We live at sea level, and there is no snow since it melts right-away. BFs are reported to make the 20 mile trip out of the coast range, and use the short river beds as highways to the low lands. Now, steelhead are in the rivers, and there is plenty to eat unlike up at the 2000' level. This lowland area rarely gets snow and will stay around 40 degrees Fahrenheit which is perfect for bears and BFs.

Huntster, why would a some BFs wander around in snow bound areas and leave long trails of foot prints? Why wouldn't they just drop down in elevation and find the deer, brush, and other things to eat? Maybe they have a death wish?

Could there be lowland BFs and highland BFs? I doubt it.

Now in central Oregon, the lowlands will remain below freezing most of the winter with some snow that will stick.
Huntster
QUOTE(georgerm @ Dec 22 2008, 09:22 PM) *
.....Huntster, why would a some BFs wander around in snow bound areas and leave long trails of foot prints? Why wouldn't they just drop down in elevation and find the deer, brush, and other things to eat? Maybe they have a death wish?....


Maybe they're on their way to lower elevations?

QUOTE
Could there be lowland BFs and highland BFs? I doubt it.


I don't see why not. There are lowland gorillas and mountain gorillas.

Inre Alaska/Yukon moose, there are areas with populations of moose in which some are "residents" that remain in the lowlands, and some migrate up and down in elevation. Studies have shown that the migration tends to be passed on generation to generation by the cows.
Rod
QUOTE(damndirtyape @ Dec 22 2008, 11:39 PM) *
Hibernation occurs with exposure to low temperatures and, under normal conditions, occurs principally during winter seasons when there are lengthy periods of low environmental temperatures. A related form of dormancy is known as estivation. Many animals estivate when they are exposed to prolonged periods of drought or during hot, dry summers. For all practical purposes, hibernation and estivation in animals are indistinguishable, except for the nature of the stimulus, which is either cold or an arid environment.

Many mammals and some birds spend at least part of the winter in hiding, but remain no more drowsy than in normal sleep. On the other hand, some mammals undergo a profound decrease in metabolic rate and physiological function during the winter, with a body temperature near 32°F (0°C). This condition, sometimes known as deep hibernation, is the only state in which the warm-blooded vertebrate, with its complex mechanisms for temperature control, abandons its warm-blooded state and chills to the temperature of the environment. Between the drowsy condition and deep hibernation are gradations about which little is known. The bear, skunk, raccoon, and badger are animals which become drowsy in winter. Although usually considered the typical hibernator, the bear's body temperature does not drop more than a few degrees.

The deep hibernators are confined to five orders of mammals: the marsupials, the Chiroptera or bats, the insectivores, the rodents, and, probably, the primates. Most, if not all, of the insect-eating bats of temperate climates not only hibernate in the winter, but also drop their body temperature when they roost and sleep. The advantage of this for a small mammal with a disproportionately large heat-losing surface is obvious when conservation of energy is considered. Many rodents are deep hibernators, including ground squirrels, woodchucks, dormice, and hamster. The fat-tailed and mouse lemurs are primates that hibernate or estivate. Among birds, the poorwill (Phalaenoptilus) and some hummingbirds and swifts undergo a lowering of body temperature and metabolic rate in cold periods.
__________________________________________________
Notice that the first discovery was only four years ago... this can be looked at in two ways:
  1. We don't know everything yet, and
  2. What other primates out there might hibernate or estivate
__________________________________________________

Lemur Is First Known Hibernating Primate, Study Says
James Owen in England
for National Geographic News
June 23, 2004


Madagascar, a large, tropical island off the east coast of Africa, isn't the kind of place you'd expect to find a mammal that hibernates. Yet researchers say a small, nocturnal lemur resorts to the same tactic used by bears, squirrels, and dormice to survive cold northern winters—spending at least seven months of the year hibernating through harsh times brought on by drought.

The German-based team say their study is the only report of prolonged hibernation in a tropical mammal. Furthermore, writing in this week's scientific journal Nature, they claim the study provides the first proof of hibernation in any species of primate.

The study focused on the fat-tailed dwarf lemur (Cheirogaleus medius), one of a group of snout-faced primates for which Madagascar is famous. The island boasts some 32 lemur species, the highest percentage of indigenous primates anywhere on Earth.

The fat-tail dwarf lemur gorges on fruit, flowers, and insects during a short rainy season between December and February. As its body weight increases by around 40 percent, the lemur's tail swells massively with stored fat reserves. The animal, which usually weighs five ounces (150 grams), then goes into a torpor, marked by reduced activity and appetite.

Scientists previously noted that this cycle of behavior is most pronounced in western Madagascar, where the climate veers between extremes. Here the "fat-tail" was found to take to holes in tree trunks during prolonged periods of drought, when trees shed their leaves and food becomes scarce.

Led by scientists from Phillips University's animal physiology department in Marburg, Germany, the team revealed that the fat-tail's body temperature varied to an extent previously unknown in mammals. Daily fluctuations ranged almost 20 degrees Celsius (nearly 40 degrees Fahrenheit), with temperatures recorded from as low as 9.3 degrees Celsius (48.7 degrees Fahrenheit) to well over 30 degrees Celsius (86 degrees Fahrenheit).

Tree Holes

Body temperatures were found to correlate closely with how well each tree hole was insulated. The researchers say this suggests the lemurs body temperatures are regulated by external conditions, as with lizards and other reptiles, instead of being maintained internally.

"They follow changes in environmental temperature as if they were a piece of stone," said Gerhard Heldmaier, from Phillips University. This, he says, is potentially of great benefit, as it helps fat-tails conserve their fat reserves.

For reasons not fully understood, most hibernating mammals usually go through periods of arousal, when they bring their body temperatures up to normal levels. "This costs them a lot of energy," said Heldmaier. He added that the lemurs studied experienced body temperatures as high as 35.9 degrees C (97 degrees F) and didnt need to go through arousal during hibernation.

The researchers say the condition of hibernation should no longer be seen as synonymous with low body temperatures, as is presently the case.

They also state: "To our knowledge, our findings are the first physiological confirmation of prolonged hibernation by a tropical mammal, as well as the first proof of hibernation in a primate."

Heldmaier added, "Hibernation has nothing to do with the cold. What animals are coping with is a seasonal scarcity of food."

He is confident that future studies will show that other primates also go into hibernation. He nominates the potto—a loris from western and central Africa—as an example.

Kirindy Forest

Areas where fat-tailed dwarf lemurs resort to hibernation include the 25,000-acre (10,000-hectare) Kirindy Forest on the west-central coast of Madagascar. The focus of studies by the German Primate Center, based in Göttingen, Germany, the forest exhibits pronounced seasonal changes, with most of the trees dropping their leaves to conserve water during the long, dry season.

Other lemurs in the forest respond in similar ways to the fat-tail, according to Peter Kappeler, head of ethology and ecology at the center.

Writing in the American Museum of Natural History magazine, Natural History, Kappeler says female gray mouse lemurs may also hibernate for months, adding, "Like their fat-tailed cousins, [they] go through their complete reproductive cycle between late December and early February."

Meanwhile, Verreaux's sifakas— large, long-legged lemurs that leap high in the canopy—cope with the dry season through calorie-saving measures such as cutting distances traveled and sunbathing in the morning to bring body temperatures up.

Kappeler says the leaf-eating red-tailed sportive lemur also saves energy by reducing its activity level and metabolic rate.

He adds, "These primates offer scientists an opportunity to study how a group of related mammals respond to a range of environmental conditions—in this case, along the entire length of the world's fourth largest island."

However, scientists say they may not have long to make the most of this opportunity, because hunting and destruction of forests in this desperately poor country are putting the lemur's long-term future in jeopardy.




I take my hat off to you Damndirty.....you bloody well found a ******* primate that hiberbloodynates......you have just buggered me up....a frigging lemur...what the hell is a "lemur'...gezzuz...sounds like french cow-sh*t...... new_lmaosmiley.gif
RayG
Ummmm.... Rod, DDA's link to the hibernating primate (fat-tailed lemur), is the same link I gave 20 posts earlier (post #9).

The picture DDA includes however, is of the ring-tailed lemur, not the hibernating fat-tailed lemur.

Click to view attachment

RayG
Rod
QUOTE(RayG @ Dec 23 2008, 06:17 AM) *
Ummmm.... Rod, DDA's link to the hibernating primate (fat-tailed lemur), is the same link I gave 20 posts earlier (post #9).

The picture DDA includes however, is of the ring-tailed lemur, not the hibernating fat-tailed lemur.

Click to view attachment

RayG


Sorry Ray if I missed it..I did see yours but for some reason it did not register........I'll go back to the old drawing board...maybe my mate Hunster is onto something afterall......cheers mate..and merry xmas..take care. thumbup.gif
Terry
QUOTE(Huntster @ Dec 23 2008, 12:09 AM) *
And, obviously, so must wolves, coyotes, foxes, cougars, and any number of other unhoofed critters that don't hibernate or go dormant in dens during the coldest part of the winter, but instead eek out a living all winter long in all kinds of weather.


When there is snow cover, all of those animals leave tracks. If there were such a thing as a bf in snow country who was out and about, it would have to leave a lot more tracks than a straight line through someone's field. The animal would be trying to make a living which would include meandering tracks in feeding areas, chases, sign around kills or whatever vegetation it would ingest during the winter months. (If it wasn't young twigs they'd be hard pressed to find anything here in Ontario.) I fly during winter months doing moose surveys and all those creatures who are out and about leave enough tracks between snowfalls to tell a story. Supposed bf animals don't appear to do this. Bears sleep away the winter because they can't make a living out there as you know. If there is such a thing as bf, he's not behaving like 100% of the other creatures out there during the winter months.

t.
damndirtyape
QUOTE(RayG @ Dec 23 2008, 04:17 AM) *
Ummmm.... Rod, DDA's link to the hibernating primate (fat-tailed lemur), is the same link I gave 20 posts earlier (post #9).

The picture DDA includes however, is of the ring-tailed lemur, not the hibernating fat-tailed lemur.

Click to view attachment

RayG


I saw your link RayG, but when Rod still didn't register the little primate I posted the contents. Interesting little animal (as well as a few others) filling the niche of squirrels on that island. This kind of proves the point that animals can adapt to the easiest and most vacant of behaviors to survive. If an area does have bear, why would another species (like Bigfoot) try to fill the same niche? This little primate also has another animal posing to contend with... a Parrot. But this animal is separated from the primate in physical ability and of course other behaviors. They may look like they directly compete but they don't.

If an area already has an existent species requiring the same resources, direct competition occurs. The importance of this is that if you have an area containing bear and know its niche, ascribing the same niche to another species (Bigfoot) assumes direct competition between them and only one of the species will remain. They can separate by distance and/or the time of use (temporal). Migration of the animal from one place to another because of intraspecies competition does not make the animal one that employs migration behavior regularly. I do not know of any transient phenomena other than some bear have been categorized as ill when leaving their normal environment for a more rural one. But with some bear actually hibernating leaves open the niche during those months. This is why I feel that if a given area has a sizable bear population, and that species is of a size that can compete successfully (grizzly and brown) than it is unlikely a Bigfoot population coexists. Hibernation could be an equalizing factor and since bear appear to utilize it, Bigfoot probably doesn't need to. Bear regulate their usage of localized resources through hibernation.
georgerm
QUOTE(damndirtyape @ Dec 23 2008, 09:59 AM) *
If an area already has an existent species requiring the same resources, direct competition occurs. The importance of this is that if you have an area containing bear and know its niche, ascribing the same niche to another species (Bigfoot) assumes direct competition between them and only one of the species will remain. They can separate by distance and/or the time of use (temporal). Migration of the animal from one place to another because of intraspecies competition does not make the animal one that employs migration behavior regularly. I do not know of any transient phenomena other than some bear have been categorized as ill when leaving their normal environment for a more rural one. But with some bear actually hibernating leaves open the niche during those months. This is why I feel that if a given area has a sizable bear population, and that species is of a size that can compete successfully (grizzly and brown) than it is unlikely a Bigfoot population coexists. Hibernation could be an equalizing factor and since bear appear to utilize it, Bigfoot probably doesn't need to. Bear regulate their usage of localized resources through hibernation.



If there is abundant food supplies that includes plants, grubs and meat, why would two species not survive? In Oregon we have black bear competing with BFs. In Alaska they have several species of bears competing for dominance. Why would bear vs bear be different from BF vs bear?

Another factor might be one species has not had time to dominate the area and when a food shortage becomes permanent, then one may die out.

How can foxes, coyotes, cougars, etc survive snow country with out hibernation. Don't they move to lowlands? The answer is probably why I've never seen a cougar in Oregon and have lived here a life time.
COGrizzly
QUOTE(georgerm @ Dec 23 2008, 09:35 PM) *
If there is abundant food supplies that includes plants, grubs and meat, why would two species not survive? In Oregon we have black bear competing with BFs. In Alaska they have several species of bears competing for dominance. Why would bear vs bear be different from BF vs bear?

Another factor might be one species has not had time to dominate the area and when a food shortage becomes permanent, then one may die out.

How can foxes, coyotes, cougars, etc survive snow country with out hibernation. Don't they move to lowlands? The answer is probably why I've never seen a cougar in Oregon and have lived here a life time.


I know guides of all kinds that have never seen a Cougar, including bow hunting guides of 20 years that have not seen a Cougar, but have seen a BF. It may be a big set of chance, seeing a BF.
Huntster
QUOTE(georgerm @ Dec 23 2008, 07:35 PM) *
.....How can foxes, coyotes, cougars, etc survive snow country with out hibernation. Don't they move to lowlands?.......


Unlike bears and sasquatches, foxes, coyotes, cougars, and wolves are 100% carnivores. Their food is still out and about.

Bears and sasquatches are more reliant on vegetation and seasonal abundance, like salmon. In cases of coastal habitat, they may not hibernate/go dormant as long because tides still go low exposing clam beds and tide pools, but the vegetation and anadromous fish are still not available.

And after a long summer of bulking up, just like a huge lunch for an office worker, they get "sleepy", and tend to "lay low" until the dinner bell rings again...........
damndirtyape
QUOTE(georgerm @ Dec 23 2008, 08:35 PM) *
If there is abundant food supplies that includes plants, grubs and meat, why would two species not survive? In Oregon we have black bear competing with BFs. In Alaska they have several species of bears competing for dominance. Why would bear vs bear be different from BF vs bear?

Another factor might be one species has not had time to dominate the area and when a food shortage becomes permanent, then one may die out.

How can foxes, coyotes, cougars, etc survive snow country with out hibernation. Don't they move to lowlands? The answer is probably why I've never seen a cougar in Oregon and have lived here a life time.


Elton (1927) wrote: When studying limiting factors, it is really more important to have a nodding acquaintance with some of the things going on in the environment, then to know the physiology of the animals themselves.

A species tends to overpopulate itself if the resources and conditions are favorable to do so. It is one of the premises of evolution. They try to fill the niche. They don't say to themseleves that there is more than enough for another animal species to come and be neighbors. Grizzly bears separate themselves from Brown bears and from Polar bears. Sure, there are places where they overlap but that is where the most competition occurs. Species tend to avoid any situation that could do them harm and prevent them from perpetuating their own kind. A black bear sees a griz, it is going to run, not fight. A griz surprises a black bear there is probably going to be a fight. A fight to the death is rare between members of the same species but not with those of another. This of course excludes the killing of cubs from another adult male, but even this is about perpetuating their own genes over those of others.

There could be many animals, under the right circumstances in the wild that may employee hibernation schemes to some degree and we have just not witnessed, recognized or understood it yet. Who's to say that a mountain lion doesn't den up for a few weeks at a time in a tupor when circumstances warrant it? I went out with the Oregon Fish and Wildlife department on a fecundity study of calving elk and they were trying to understand the local bear and cat predation models they predicted. They had questions that I thought they already knew. That was the biggest shock of the whole trip.

The larger the animal the more surface area that has too be cooled or heated, depending on the temperature. Cooling and heating is done in different ways with different animals. Large ears help cool the blood around the brain. Thick hair keeps body heat in as does fat. Metabolisms are usually higher in animals that are smaller. These are the ones that have to eat, maybe not as much but more often. Great White sharks eat less then seals... it is the nature of the predator - prey pyramid. Bergman's rule of species tending to be larger the further northern their habitat is only applied within the same species.

Black bear seem to have struck some kind of an accord with the other bears and are tolerated to a degree so it might be possible that Bigfoot would also tolerate them. But we have to look at the population numbers. In Washington there are estimated 38,000 black bear. Their senses are tuned to understanding odors versus sight (they can easily survive nocturnally). Primates favor vision (not so good for night time) and are usually not found in such large numbers per a given area. I would be very surprised that when Bigfoot is finally accepted as being a real animal, that it be found that no more than about 200 of them actually call this state their home. Being this rare would naturally make the animal even more wary of confrontation. There are many many things affecting animal behavior and survival tactics. Scientists try to make rules but they don't seem to last very long, what with all the exceptions they keep discovering.

Large mammals tend to have large ranges to help keep their population densities manageable. Their ranges are also oriented in a north-south shape. This latter observation should tell researchers that it might be productive to look for large mammal movements in this direction.
bigfootnis
The eastern forests that I am familiar with in West Virginia and Kentucky have very little to no apparant vegatation in the winter. Black bears are indigenous to the area and do hybernate. Deer are the next largest animal that I can think of and they are quite abundant but do not hibernate. Deer are vegans as I understand it and bucks can get fairly large. So it is conceivable that BF could not hibernate and eat mostly plant life.
Huntster
QUOTE(Huntster @ Dec 22 2008, 08:24 PM) *
....It all varies on the climate/food cycles. It isn't so much the temperature; it's what temperature does to it's food sources.

Thus, brown bears in their southermost ranges have food available longer, thus they go dormant/hibernate less. Brown bears on the North Slope of the Brooks Range (on the Arctic coastal plain, where winter lasts for most of the year), they will go dormant/hibernate longer.

Sows go dormant/hibernate for sure annually, because they bear young in the den, and nurse them until spring when the cubs are large enough to begin grazing.

Boars don't do this. They only go dormant/hibernate when food disappears, and will often emerge from their dens in southcentral Alaska in mid-winter and take a walk looking for food. If none is found, they'll go back into their den for another nap........


Case in point:

QUOTE
Grizzly and bear spray at -40...........

..........On Nov. 21 on my way to my trapline down on the AK hwy, near Coal river in the Yukon i saw a grizzly on the hwy, it was a big bear 7 1/2 to 8 fter. it was skinny and not acting right, i was going to shoot it but since i am from the yukon and was in bc didnt want the legal hassel...........

Rod
Though I grant you it is possible that some Bigfoot may hibernate....there is no frigging way I can believe it.....sorry, but what about Mama bigfoot whose pregnant... and then there is all the footprints found in the snow....and the competition between it and bears to fatten up for the winter.....just don't reckon, thats all.....
Huntster
QUOTE(Rod @ Dec 24 2008, 09:01 PM) *
.....sorry, but what about Mama bigfoot whose pregnant...


We have no idea of the reproductive seasons of sasquatches. They may very well be like humans, where there are essentially a few days within 30 day cycles year round where the female is in estrus, which would mean that they can bear young year round.

Or, they may very well be like bears. Mating is in summer/fall, and the young born in spring. Thus, any sasquatch activity in winter is likely males.

QUOTE
....and then there is all the footprints found in the snow....and the competition between it and bears to fatten up for the winter.....just don't reckon, thats all.....


It most certainly does. There is little competition with bears during the season of plenty when there is enough for all. There are already two different species of bears doing it, and prime sasquatch habitat (PNW) is extremely dense with black bears and brown bears both.
Rod
QUOTE(Huntster @ Dec 25 2008, 12:20 AM) *
We have no idea of the reproductive seasons of sasquatches. They may very well be like humans, where there are essentially a few days within 30 day cycles year round where the female is in estrus, which would mean that they can bear young year round.

Or, they may very well be like bears. Mating is in summer/fall, and the young born in spring. Thus, any sasquatch activity in winter is likely males.
It most certainly does. There is little competition with bears during the season of plenty when there is enough for all. There are already two different species of bears doing it, and prime sasquatch habitat (PNW) is extremely dense with black bears and brown bears both.




I trust your judgement and experience on this one Hunster my friend...you are there and I am not... thumbup.gif
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