As for reporting the kill zone I will leave that decision to BigTex since it's his primary research area.

That's fair.

I assumed you two were collaborating at this point and that you could answer the question.

My apologies.

I am going over today to try and speak with the dead dog owner before my hike. The other day, Dantallus and I were just to hot and sweaty to be knocking on anyone's door. One thing about Lago Vista and the streets, many are unique. The town was built more as a resort town than anything else. That is changing, but it still has that flavor. Miles and miles of urban streets were cut through the hills and paved back in the 60's & 70's. These are neighborhood streets and don't go anywhere or offer any short-cuts. Many of these roads, especially the ones on the out skirts of town, never got water or power, have become like ghost towns, and are deserted - no traffic. The woods are taking several of them back, as can be seen in the pictures. The dog owners live on one of these streets, and is the only house built on 3 city blocks. It is about a mile from the Kill Zone, and sourrounded by woods....cool place.

Hey Mulder, I don't belong to any of the organizations either. Their methods have not produced tangible evidence to date. Neither have mine, but they are much better funded than me, and obviously have lots of money to throw around on very expensive equipment. If I had their funding, you would see some amazing gadgets coming out of my shop. Maybe I need to become a TV Star like many of these guys are doing now. At least I am trying to think 'out of the box', and develop species specific gear. Don't get me wrong, these folks are committed, work very hard, and I can certainly appreciate that. Many years ago when I was involved with a group here in Texas, I preached using kayaks as a great way to get no place fast & stealthy.......I noticed some of my old buds using this method last week on Monster Quest. At least they liked some of my ideas

^Tex, have you considered getting Fish and Game involved, perhaps under the pretext of illegal hunting or something like that?

It seems to me that you have SOMETHING very strange going on there, and the only way to get to the bottom of it is with intensive surveillance either human, mechanical, or both. Getting a research group or state agency in there would be the best way I can think of to get access to such gear if only indirectly.

I took quite a few pics as well and will post them over the weekend.

Hey Mulder, would rather not involve any officials at this point, or even my Game Warden buddy. If this involves illegal human activity, it is not happening here, just ending up in the Kill Zone. I would prefer to remain low key, and under the radar. They might tell me to quit hiking over there.....NOT! I am leaning toward human activity, with the dead animals be dumped, but am still having a few issues.....mainly the distance from where someone could drive up and dump, and where the carcasses end up. I just have a hard time thinking anyone would drag (no sign of that) or carry a nasty gnarley carcass that far, and don't think the scavengers would do it either. In addition, other than the dead dog, there are not many fresh kills in the area since May. It's almost like something has moved out of the area, maybe migrated to avoid the drought & heat? If humans were dumping there, I would think it would be more on-going and a continuous thing. And a final point......why dump the smaller animals here, possums, raccoons, skunks, and the like?

Your thoughts? Dantallus please chime in at will, you're the only one that has been there too.

I went by the dead dogs house yesterday before my hike, but no one was at home.......will keep trying.

Good point about the smaller animals being moved there. But who took the collar off the dead dog after it layed around for a week? That probably required hands. Can't imagine any human doing anything illegal as needing to probe around with that. Ever have any evidence of another fellow human back there, campfire rings, loose arrows, bullet casings, shotgun shells and the like?

Well, it seems to me that you've already articulated the flaws in the "human activity" theory (no trophies taken, state of the bodies, etc). Scavengers would scatter the remains. Most of the pics you've posted look like intact remains to me. That and, if I'm citing you correctly, you yourself said something is just "off" about the area.

Of course you have to to what you feel best. It's your research area. It's just frustrating that you can't get any additional resources without potentially bringing in outsiders with them.

For some reason I've totally ignored this thread, I guess assuming it was something different than it is. From a quick gloss of this thread the whole thing is pretty bizarre and a bit scary.

I'd like to kindly request BigTex providing some sort of summary when you have a chance. Things like summation of all the different animals/parts you've seen, some estimate of the incidence/how often either you find things or think they are turning up, how long this has been going on, how big the area is and how spaced the carcasses are.

One of my first thoughts was some kind of poisoning (either deliberate or accidental) but that doesn't really seem to fit, at least not with everything. If you aren't already it might be really helpful to collect GPS coordinates of the bodies you find and to keep some sort of a map of these and when they are found, etc. I'm still grappling with the size and extent of this "kill zone" and how dense the occurrence of carcasses actually is.

Be careful out there, as you've obviously gathered if this is human related, and not a DOT dump, these are probably not folks you want to run into.

-A

PS- Could the photo above be a horse track? Looks awfully round to me.

Seconded!

Hello Apeman, and thanks for your post. Most GPS gadgets will give a location, plus or minus so many feet. You would only need to stand in the middle of the Kill Zone, and the + or - would cover the area, it's that small. As far as the print mentioned, it had heel definition when I found it, but can't be clearly seen in the photo. Also, the dried Cedar things on the ground (for lack of a better word) have a springy quality to them in that when a depression is made, the material will spring back close to where it was originally, and within 12 hours or less. I showed Dantullus the print a few days later, and only the front part was clearly defined, but the darn mountain bikers had been through there. Yup......I cut some nice trails for myself the last few years, and some mountain bikers found them.....rats! Have only seen them once, but their weekly trips are clearly evidenced by the tire tracks, which is a drag for print work. The canapy is too low for horseback riders, and I have never seen any........could be another Hogzilla!

I can't believe I've forgotten about this thread for so long.

Very interesting stuff going on up there, Tex. Definitely need to get up to your area more often. Maybe soon it'll get a little cooler. Heat won't bother me - I work outside doing landscaping. I'm always going to be able to brag about doing manual labor in the hottest damn summer of all time to my grandkids later.

But now that life's slowing down for me, we should get together and plan a few small trips. We're already planning the one to the Ouachita's [hopefully you can make it] and maybe in the future we can take longer trips in your research area or other areas.

Keep in touch and let me know when you need someone to watch your back. If I can make it out, I will! In the mean time, keep up the good work. This area of yours is really off-the-wall bizarre.

Oh, and I forgot - I've got some of Ultracal at home so we can make casts whenever you want. The stuff isn't that expensive so it'll be easy to buy more if we need to. I haven't had the chance to try it out yet, but I'm going to be making a few test casts in the upcoming weeks and packing some for the Ouachita Expedition.

Finally got by the dead dog's house, and was met at the door by a 12ish year old girl who proceeded to get VERY upset when she saw the collar in my hand......kind of a bad scene for sure, then the angry father started yelling in the background. I was at a lose as what to do or say, and am pretty sure they think I ran over their dog. It had been gone several weeks, which would have made the time of death what I had already figured, about 3 days dead when I first found it. I did not stick around and ask any questions, and darn near ended up in a fight......jez. Think I might get what's left of the dog, and leave it out front of their house for them.

Here's an interesting food plant.......find these a lot, pulled up out of the ground (not dug up), and the roots eaten. I try all the time in different types of soil, but these darn things are very VERY hard to pull up, and most of the time can't even get them to budge.

[quote name='BigTex' date='Aug 21 2009, 05:12 PM' post='554735']

BigTex it took a brave person to take that evidence back to the owner, but yeah I think I would have had a hard time figuring out how to break the news in a delicate way in that situation. Unusual food source for sure?

While the situation wasn't really handled the best way (no offense), I think you could go to the dogs owner and resalvage the situation.

I still think you could probably go back to the owner, apologize by saying something like "look I didn't handle this the right way the last time I was here, since this was such an awkward situation for me - but I came by the other day to let you know I found your dog's body while hiking in the *wherever*. I'm a dog lover, and know that I'd want to find out what happened to my dog if it went missing - and I feel really bad about how things went the last time I was here." Maybe offer to take them to see where you found the dog (or show them on a map)... and if a cordial discussion develops, maybe use this discussion to get into more detail re: your hiking, finding the dog, mention you've seen other animal bodies here, and use the talk to get a feel for why the dog might have been out there in the first place...

Or maybe call them on the phone and state something similar. Ask to speak to Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so, etc... maybe speaking with the Mom might be the best... Although calling might give the pet owner your phone number (which could be a concern if they think you may have done something to their pet).

Starting a conversation about a missing pet with a 12 year old girl really doesn't seem the wisest approach, and I can understand the father's reaction.

I obv wouldn't mention anything re: the circumstances under which you found the dog (looking for BF). I wouldn't mention the terms "killing field", as this drums up an odd vibe.

I would definitely NOT drop the dead dogs remains in front of their house without an explanation - could have even a worse effect, especially if they have an identifier to go with you (license plate). How would you react if some guy showed up with your dogs collar without much of an explanation, then showed up a few days later and dumped the dog's body (presumably a loved pet) on your lawn? My response would be to immediately contact local law enforcement, and actively look for you, as I would genuinely concerned.

Just a thought... Not trying to offend in my post here. I guess whether you choose to re-engage with the pet owner should be driven by what you want to get out of it, IMHO.

I won't be going back to the dogs house, and didn't choose to discuss the issue with a 12 year old. She simply answered the door, saw the collar, and reacted before I said a word. I debated whether or not take the collar to the door, but was basically lazy in not wanting to walk back and get it if needed . Don't know these people, and certainly don't have their number.......it's a dead issue for me, no pun intended.

I find the plant thing a bit interesting. It's pretty hard to pull a plant out of the ground without opposable thumbs...

After the poor results with the dog owner, I am taking Mulder's advice, and contacted the City people today. I spoke with the guy who handles the dead animals in and around town, including the Highway area that goes through this area. They have a designated area that is fenced off, and quite a ways from the Kill Zone. They use specific guidelines, and some type of lime treatment. I also asked him if their would be any monetary gain to dump the animals someplace else, and said there is none for the worker, other than shortening the trip. He agreed that if one of their guys was doing this, it would be ongoing, and not seasonal. He is looking into the matter as well, and is calling me back either way.

Had another idea, but know nothing about this.......could it be a Taxidermist doing this, or do they need all of the skeleton to do their thing? Still having the same issue here though, and that is the distance from the carcases to any drive-up location.......it's just too far.

How far is the location of the bulk of the dead animals from the nearest paved road?

Haven't done any serious hiking in over a week, it's just been too hot and dry, almost brittle. All of the fire danger signs posted around say 'Extreme'. Hiked to several of the usual natural watering holes, all but one was bone dry, and that one will be dry in a week if we don't get some serious rain. There is the old man-made cattle pond near the kill zone that will be the only source of water, other than a 2 mile walk to Lake Travis (Colorado River). Usually, the Lake is well up into the stream fingers, and the 2 mile walk becomes zero miles. I haven't seen the woods this dry since moving to the area 8 years ago. All of the 'good sign' I was enjoying for years is mostly gone, and many of the animals have obviously moved to other areas, not much sign of those either. The local pets are certainly on the radar, as the preditors have moved into town, with the game animals looking for water, human landscaping, trash, and hand-outs. We have lost two of our cats this summer as well.

Anyway, here are a few new pictures; #1 - a stream that ALWAYS has water, notice the dead ferns on the right side. #2, 3 - one of the few remaining streams with water, not flowing anymore, drying out, live ferns still line the shore. #4 - the man-made old pond near the kill zone, down about ten feet, and a nasty green film over the entire surface, very few tracks around its muddy shores too. #5, 7 - more of the edible root food for something, believe these are Yucca's? Very hard to pull up, the last photo I put a pulled & eaten one up against a live one. Also, if you try to pull these up, and your grip slips - which it will - the sides of the leaves will cut your hand in several places......I don't try this anymore. #6 - star of the show, and what appears to by an arrow carved into a stone, and marking some kinda old trail. It looks carved, weathered, and very old.

Today was a great day to hike, best since May, and was able to stay out almost 5 hours. More nice weather on the way I hope. Decided to hike over to the kill zone today, as it's been over two weeks. I found one of the more impressive weird things in a while. If you look back several posts, there is a picture of a dead buck with horns, and I commented why would a poacher leave the rack behind. Anyway, he is always there for me to see when I go by, and semi hidden under brush about 20 feet off the trail. Today I noticed he had some company, so I crawled in there, yes.....hands and knee crawled to take the folloing pictures : #1 - old & new kill. #2 - the old dead deer from last year. #3 - his neck twisted & broke. #4 - the new deer, notice the velvet on the horns. #5 - his neck twisted & broke the same way. Why would something drag these two male deers to the same spot that's a little hard to get too? Also, picture #6.......all that is left of the dog, about 80 feet from where I first found him, and about 20 feet from where Dantallus and I last saw him.

I swear it looks like that old deer rack/head is posed on that rock.....did you move it that way?

Haven't moved or touched anything in the kill zone. Here's another weird find, and in the kill zone. Under brush and semi concealed, these skulls lined up by themselves, the bodies nowhere to be seen........very strange.

Something sure seems to be appreciating it's handiwork, very scary. Wouldn't doubt it if it has been drop-kicking the bisected dog carcass too!

A buddy of mine called me today to say he saw a Cerval for the 3rd time in as many years, out behind his house, and down along the creek. He took a picture, and I will scan and post it after I get a copy. Sure don't think the Cerval is responsible for any of the carnage I am seeing, but it does demonstrate the ability of non-native species surviving, and even thriving in this habitat. What scares me the most? Having a face off with something that's not supposed to be here. Can you imagine running into a lion or tiger? The exotic pet trade is out of control, it's going to happen sometime, and pray it's not me. All of us that spend time in the woods need to be aware of this. I mentioned in an earlier post about my association with the Big Cat rescue folks, and it has certainly made me realize that one getting lose from a private owner is a REAL possibility. Also, the exotic owners I have spoken to over the years say they would be "very unlikely" to report anything getting lose. If it wasn't for the lack of tooth & claw marks on the kills, I would almost think one is operating in the kill zone.

Wow! The picture of the skulls lined up gave me the willies. This kill zone is fascinating. Man or Beast? One thing is for sure it's a killer.



"I swear it looks like that old deer rack/head is posed on that rock....."



Thanks for the cool stuff.
Bob

*shivers* That killzone is creepy stuff! Odd seeing all those skulls in a row. I wonder if it's possible there's another enthusiast/hiker that has stumbled across your area. Also odd that you've visited there so many times without any other encounters of what's causing it. Ever thought of setting up one of your cameras up there?

Let me know if you ever need another set of eyes or want to do an overnight now that it might finally be getting cooler out...

Dantallus and I did set up one of my camera traps, and had some audio going, but nothing really. The only thing of consequence was the audio, which I have finally listened to seven plus hours of it, in that something was messing with one of the microphones about four hours into the recording. Sounded like something picked up one of the mics, handled it for a few seconds, and put it down........that's what it sounded like anyway.

I was going to do more surveillance of the area, but after some rain and cooler weather. I have found one fairly remote area that still has water in one of the creeks, and must certainly be a popular spot when the sun goes down. Gonna put one of my camera traps there sometime this week, and audio too.

Good stuff BT...

Would a big cat meticulously drag prey to one constant location though? If so, they wouldn't line up skulls for sure! That doesn't sound like the M.O. of those cats to me, unless there is a den nearby perhaps? The advantage of a long playing small compact digital voice recorder is that you can scan hours of audio quickly for blips on the screen so to speak, as the recorder gets fancier and more expensive with more complex audio and bigger file size it is harder to do this quickly. To use a compact recorder causes some loss of quality sound but pays off in easier scanability of what you record in my mind. Might be a consideration to give you a chance to pick something up quickly and reset quicker also.

OK.....look for blips on the recorder? Oh do tell, because the worst part of the whole deal is listening to HOURS of playback......man it's tuff. Please tell me how I can make this faster!

And you are right Bipedalist, big cats don't behave in such a way........but what the hell does? I am not quite ready to attribute any of this to Bigfoot activity, but am running out of ideas.

Oh.....the guy from the city called me back, and nothing to report from his little internal investigation.

I use Wavepad, you down load the sound file by usb, the length of an 8 hr rcording shows up as a visible file with peaks and valleys (the wavepad software or others will allow you to analyze this visually across your computer screen as you listen), you can shoot straight to what makes the blips (peaks and valleys) to pick up interesting areas of the recording, you can then fill in the blanks in between if you pick up interesting stuff. Works for me. I use the Zoom H2 also and if you use the lower size file settings you might be able to do the same thing.....the key is the downloadable usb or other type of download to digitial computer files (sd cards/CF whatever). You can also play at above normal speed through stuff if you have no other option. Sometimes there is no way but to use headphones and slog through the file though like you say. I have gone back to recorded files over a year old and relistened to pick out significant material so if you archive stuff and find a certain pattern the files will always be there with backups included in your plan I hope.

Dead dog mystery SOLVED! It's so easy to get Bigfoot Tunnel-vision in this quest, and lordy knows I try hard not to, but sometimes you just get carried away. I also think it is probably more important to admitt your assumptions were wrong whenever possible, than to constantly assert your beliefs on Bigfoot. Nobody really knows much at all, and can only make educated logical guesses, based on minimal evidence. The dead dog was a road kill for sure. One thing about a small town with one grocery store; you're gonna run into everyone in town eventually, friend or foe. I was in the Cerial aisle over the weekend, and saw the girl who answered the door at the dead dogs house. Since she seemed to recognize me, I just went over to tell her I didn't kill the dog, found him in the woods, and was only returning the collar. She said the dog had been run over in front of their house, and one of her Dad's friends took the dog with him to "dispose of it". Which makes me wonder who this guy is, and is it chance he chose this spot? I was going to inquire further, but the mother came over, and made her quit talikng to me.......mystery solved, and replaced with another mystery......who is 'the friend'?

I hiked over there again yesterday to look things over more carefully, and with this new information in mind. The dogs original location when I found it was really not in the kill zone proper, on the same trail, but at least 100 yards further down on the high side of the ravine, and out of direct sight from the zone. The dog is the only carcass that appears to have been dumped on site. Dantellus and I saw old tire tracks in the grass leading to where the dog was dumped, and he could have rolled down to the trail where I found him - it's not very far, maybe 20 feet with a 45 degree incline. Predators dragged him even further down the ravine I suppose. I also found a bloody towel on the sloop leading down to its first location on the trail, and am guessing the bloody dog was wrapped in the towel, and thrown over the side of the ravine. The kill zone doesn't have a drive-up location, but who knows, and at this point, one must assume they are being dumped by humans, and dragged by predators to where I find them. Whatever is going on......it's still damn creepy.

Great job on clearing that up, BigTex. I agree that it's easy to jump the gun and declare "bigfoot did it!" before investigating all the facts.

For instance I could have sworn on our Labor Day Expedition to Ouachita National Forest a few days ago, that I heard a series of heavy but quiet bipedal footsteps creep slowly into camp and then start messing with one of our man-made materials [tarp/camping chairs, etc.]. I could believe what I was hearing so I opened the tent door to see and lo and behold.... not a thing. I must have been dreaming and will attribute the sounds to imagination as there were no large footprints at camp in the morning. But I could easily go to the TBRC or BFRO and chalk me up a sighting, a long with a few strange noises we heard one night. But unexplained strangeness does not equal bigfoot!

I hope you can find the "friend". How he knew about the spot [and if he was aware of the Kill Zone's existence] might answer some questions for you. Or it could be unrelated. Either way I wait for more updates. And pictures. You take some great photos.

Don't know why this is posting multiple times, just trying to make one post.

See post below, it double posted.

Here's a silent killer, and at least explains some of the missing cats........coyotes get most though. Yes, that is a huge rat snake that has the cat by the neck

Also, as a footnote to my last post......the dead dog mystery is solved, but not the kill zone, and there is still activity in my research areas.

Bloody heck!

I hope you killed that thing! Imagine it getting into a house with a baby...

Hi

I am sure that's the first time i have ever seen anything like that, Cat's ain't exactly the easiest to ambush even for a snake and to get it up there like that is pretty amazing,

I hope the cats folks don't get to uneasy with that

Peace
Tim

I hope they shot the So-you know what...that thing's big enough to be dangerous...

Howdy All! Still alive, but not much hiking the last few weeks, it's been raining.......yippie! I had never seen the woods so dead as they were by the end of August, but a weeks worth of rain brought everything back to life, green, flowers, almost like another Spring.......Nature is a truly amazing thing. First picture was a dry creek bed devoid of life, now alive with plants, flowers, and a little water. And yes, another Deer off to that Bambi land in the sky.

Heya Tex, just a quick note. I recall a few years back that Buck knives used to buy antlers to make handle slabs with. 20 bucks a piece I believe it was. Drop them an email and see if they still buy them. This way if you find any, the extra money could towards your Squatchin. Good luck.

Not accusing anyone of anything particular, but isn't that illegal? I thought it was against the law to harvest parts of wild animals under ANY circumstances without a whole bunch of licenses and such.

Illegal to take parts from a dead animal? I dunno. Maybe it depends on the state? I do recall reading in Field and Stream I think it was, that the top two (at the time) Boone and Crockett scored deer antlers were both found dead and turned in by whoever it was that found them.
Never thought about the legalities to be honest with you.

Here's a pic of the Hole In the Horn buck, the highest scored deer rack ever. Found dead on the side of the road in the 40's.

Maybe it's only for specific parts of specific animals then. I do know, for example, it is illegal to take or possess eagle feathers (even ones you find on the ground) without special licenses, which are primarily granted to NAs so they can obtain them for ceremonial purposes.

I was returning to the US from a week long trip into Canada. Our group was waived through the check point and we stopped on the US side to use the restroom. Another vehicle behind us was being searched and the boarder guard was holding Eagle feathers and it seemed to be a very big deal. I heard something like...How do we know you didn't kill the bird? I turned to my wife as she came out of the restroom and asked her where she put the Eagle feathers she found. Yikes!!! A good thing we didn't get searched.

Bob

Yeah. It's a felony if it's from an endangered species, and I think a misdemenor otherwise.

Another law everyone should be aware of in many states is the "catch all" law that prohibits "taking or posessing all or any part of" any species that does not have a law establishing a season and limit. In plain english, if there isn't a law saying you CAN shoot it and or take parts of it, then it's illegal. This has obvious implicatons for Bigfootery.

To my knowledge, this only applies to birds. But it applies to every bird, ever. Every single feather is property of the Federal Government, with special privileges being granted to Native Americans. I used to be into falconry, and it was a big deal.

But I've never heard anything about other animals.