I'm in the market for a muzzleloader. I used a borrowed Thompson Center from one of my husband's friends which was really too big for me, but I did manage to knock down a deer with it. I have a Youth sized Remington Model 700 243 deer rifle for Modern Gun season, but since I love venison and the hunt so much I would like to buy a muzzleloader for myself. Currently I'm leaning toward a CVA Optima with a thumbhole stock. I've had one in my hands at the store and it felt well balanced and comfortable for me. I gotta say when all that smoke cleared and that deer was laying right where I shot it with the Thompson Center I didn't want to give that gun back. LOL




What are yall's recommendations?

After this, of course, we're going to have to shop for me a Bow. lol

mine is concerned about defending her birds from ground and air predators.

I am getting her this when i get home

Always wanted to shoot a muzzleloader.. but never have. I see you are looking at a modern version which are probably a lot more accurate etc. As a matter of personal taste I would go with something more traditional myself like a Kentucky Long Rifle .50 caliber or Hawken Rifle. That's not saying YOU should go with something that much bigger etc. I saw a picture of a Hawken I think it was online, that some guy had built from a kit and instead of using the included stock he had one custom made from Tiger Maple. Absolutely unbelievable.. that wood is just full of character and depth. Here's a pic of another blackpowder rifle with a Tiger Maple Stock so if you've never seen Tiger Maple (sometimes just called Tiger Striped Maple) you can see what I mean about the wood.

I'm partial to flintlocks myself. I have a Blue Ridge Long Rifle made in Italy, and it's a tack driver at 50 yards.

Click to view attachment

Edited to add: Once again Moregon and myself are on the same wavelength.

that oughta do it LT. You might want to mount that thing in concrete... looks like it might have a little kick to it. Looks like great choices Moregon and Robert, though I don't think I want to do through all that measuring of powder and stuffing wadding. lol By the time I did all that and raised that long rifle up there'd be nada to shoot at. I like the modern muzzle loaders. The one I shot you had to put the powder cylinders into the barrel (two of them) followed by the bullet and then use the rod to push the bullet wrapped in a sabot down the barrel, and follow that up with the firing cap(not down the barrel). Hope that was the correct terminology. I have to get used to what to call all of that stuff. I really liked the knock down capability. It's nice not to have to track a wounded deer a hundred yards or so through thick brush. (For those squeamish no-kill-nothing folks, please disregard this thread)

Oh and Moregon... beautiful wood on that stock. I've seen some stocks that are beautiful, but I prefer composite for practical use. I'd be afraid to take something that pretty out into the woods and risk getting it all scratched up by briars and bois d'arc to get to the stand.

I'm worrying about the recoil too so I'm designing her a mount for her Hummer

But, I have also been informed that BF prefer peacocks in their diet as well as chickens ( and I have both but the peafowl are her pets) so I now need an anti BF weapon she can carry and use that can take one down if he shows up with little to no recoil but has the take down capability.

I decided on this.

Phasers on STUN!!!

No fair, I think you guys are making fun of my serious question.

Hi

I would report the abuse to the Womens Firearm Network, " T " They have been Providing Firearms Information to
Women World Wide, For Days , Months, Maybe a few Yrs, Who knows ! , Stop the abuse it is your right to shoot and kill stuff just like the guys ,

Peace
Tim

Sorry "T" I am a traditional muzzleloader myself. I have a Thompson Fox River model . 50 caliber Hawken and a .36 when I don't want to make a big boom.

One question about the Optima you posted a picture of above. You said your intention is to hunt deer with it, and the design of the rifle says "Hunt With Me" in regards to the camo stock, fore end and sling.... BUT WHY IN THE WORLD, nickle plating with that combination? Maybe the deer down there aren't as skittish as the ones up here, but that's like bringing a searchlight turned on through the woods around here. The other thing I'd be concerned with, other than scaring deer off is under correct lighting conditions the metal might appear as "WHITE" to other hunters in the area, which may be misinterpreted as the flash of a white-tail's tail. There's always someone a bit too anxious or quick on the trigger that will shoot at such a target rather than making sure of their target as they're suppose to do. If that's the one you want, I'd check to see if it's also available with the metal also camo, or blued rather than nickle.

Good points Moregon. The barrel didn't look like it would give off much shine to me. When I think nickel plating I think shiny enough to see yourself and it definitely wasn't. I don't do a lot of hunt and stalk, but I wouldn't want the barrel of the gun I buy to put me in danger if the need to hunt on the ground comes up.

you guys just don't understand. To find or kill these crazy beasts we need top notch technology!!! That is why i use a high powered laser pointer (an average presentation laser works great) The laser blinds them briefly when shot in thier eyes and leaves them still for a few seconds. Than you can shoot him.

This thread isn't about shooting sasquatch JC, it's about what's the best muzzleloader for women for deer hunting.

oooooh sooorrrrrryyyy

T, after having played with various smoke poles over the years, my recommendation for you would probably be something in a .45 cailber modern style. I've found that .45 has plenty of oommph to slap Bambi around pretty well without all the recoil of a .50-.54 rifle. I say modern only because they are not usually as finicky as the traditionals can be, though to be honest my heart always leans toward the more traditional styles.

Also, being a lefty some of the older style rifles are more user friendly for me, under-hammers in particular. One thing that almost all the moderns have over the traditionals is more impervious to weather and ease of cleaning, which with the corrosiveness of actual blackpowder rather than some of the other formulations out there is crucial.

If you have anything I may be able to help with feel free to PM and I'll do my best to get you some solid answers.

Actually, the flintlock is a pretty good and easy to use type of, well, lock. And you can get quick loaders, which hold a measure of powder for the chamber, a ball and wad, and a measure for the pan.

I can reload with one of those quick loaders in about 30 seconds.

Thanks Adamsclimber I really appreciate the advice! Think I'll go with the 50 cal. That's what I used this year and the kick wasn't bad. I'll shop around though and PM ya if I need to!

T, I shoot a Traditions LT in .50 cal and it is a sweet gun. I think you will like the Optima that you posted about above. I noticed that it has a break over action and the one I use has that too. You will like that so much more than the older models when loading the shotgun primer into the gun. By the way, in the state of AR, a muzzle loader isn't considered "loaded" until the shotgun primer is put into the gun. The break over is so much faster and that can come in handy if you need to reload in a hurry. The action also makes it much easier to clean the breech plug and the barrel of the gun. One other thing I would recommend, and this is just personal choice, be selective of the sabots that you use. IMO, the more plastic on the sabot, the harder it is to clean the residue from the gun.

That's probably the most important thing to remember about a black powder rifle...clean it, clean it and clean it some more. I clean mine after every shot even when I'm sighting it in each year. Welcome to the world of black powder hunting gal!

I've always liked a parkerized finish rather than blued or nickle.

Love that new avatar Jay! Thanks for the input sistah! My husband bought a used ML and it's so hard to load he actually broke the rod off trying to get the bullet down the barrel. That's a big issue for me. I don't want something that's going to be so hard to load it takes the fun out of hunting for me. I'm liking that breakover concept. I didnt' have much trouble loading the primer on the borrowed TC because my fingers are small and I could just reach right in underneath the scope and pop it in there. I went to several stores to get a capping tool and uncapping tool and nobody has heard of them. The hubby has one. At any rate thanks for the info!

The husband just read your post and told me that he heard about a guy that was fined 5,000 dollars and had his truck and gun confiscated by AGFC for carrying a loaded ML through a no hunting zone. He had the primer in his pocket though. He went to court and the judge decided in his favor (apparently with malice) and charged AGFC with abuse of power made them pay a $15,000 dollar fine, and made them give him all his stuff back. He lost his 3,000 acre lease with Potlatch because of the fine and he's suing AGFC and Potlatch

No kidding? Sounds like an over zealous game warden to me! We actually teach in hunter's ed that a muzzle loader is not considered loaded until the primer is on the nipple. I'm glad the guy is fighting it!

IMO the sabot is another thing that can make the gun hard to load. My hubby and I used to debate heavily on the loading of our guns. He was convinced that once you got the pyrodex pellets and the sabot down into the barrel that you had to jam them as hard as you could to get them seated. I've seen him actually take the ram rod and bounce it up and down inside the barrel to make sure everything was well in place. Me, I use my starter tool then just push the rod until I can't feel any more give in the pellets and sabot and I am ready to shoot. I haven't had a misfire yet.

The primer capping tools are great, especially on the type of ML that doesn't break over. I picked one up at Bass Pro in October so I know they have them, and our local sporting goods store has them so if you can't find one, let me know and I'll pick one up and send it to you. When you buy the gun, you will probably get one in the tool set that comes with most guns along with a breech plug tool and a wire brush that attaches to the end of the ram rod for cleaning the barrel.

An example of what I'm talking about with the sabots....the first picture is a typical ML bullet that's loaded into a plastic sabot. IMO, using these makes the gun much harder to clean and much harder to load. I've had plenty of heated discussions with other hunters over my opinion on this, but I still stand behind what I believe. 'Course that and a buck and a nickle will buy you a cup of coffee.

Click to view attachment

This is what I use. There are PowerBelt bullets that have the benefits of the sabot along with the bullet all in one projectile. Like I said, either is fine I'm sure, I just prefer the bullet.

Click to view attachment

Everyone at our camp use Powerbelts and just about all of them have lost deer. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the bullets' fault but poor shot placement, but they're all blaming the Powerbelts. I used a hollowpoint with a sabot which is what the gun owner used and sent to me and didn't lose my deer. I knocked it down and that's where it stayed so now they all think they need to switch to the hollow points.


Ya know the thing about cramming that bullet down the barrel (Powerbelts) is they've got that soft tip to them so if you work them over with that rod hammering you're damaging that soft tip and the bullet may not fly as accurately as you want. I do like you do and seat the bullet to where it's down all the way and the gun never misfired either, course, I haven't been using a ML very long either. Target shooting and one deer does not a pattern make. LOL

Gary has a birthday coming up November 13th. I'm so tempted to buy that Optima for myself for his birthday. LOL!

This looks like what I was shooting.

Some people will swear by Traditions, some by Thomson. Some will say .45 caliber and others will say .54. Practical field experience with a firearm will prove to be the ultimate test. If the gun feels right at the store vs. another gun (I speak of reputable brands only) then the one that feels more natural will help it become an extension of yourself, your wife, etc. Great example. I was in the market for a heavy magnum centerfire. Having handled firearms for the last 20+ years of all shapes and descriptions I settled on a rifle that wasn't as expensive or as fancy as its counterparts. But the rifle felt natural. It consistently delivers sub-MOA accuracy, and I couldn't help but smile shooting right beside another gentleman who had a Weatherby-guaranteed sub-MOA rifle (in a higher velocity chambering costing about $800.00 more than mine) who was punching 2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Like anything it takes practice to make a rifle an extension of yourself, but by choosing a rifle that feels natural and points true even before a shot is fired should be taken into serious consideration. I do suggest you get a reputable brand - there are plenty of them out there. Just don't buy a Thomson or Traditions because someone you know shoots well with it.

That right there, is probably the best advice given out of any on this thread....dammit

Thanks so much for the advice!

oh...

i thought the thread was about buying any gun for your wife.

i bought mine an mforgery recently.(ar 15 carbine from smith and wesson)

aint i a great husband?

(psst, its the one in back)

Nothing says "I loveyou" more than a semi-automatic!

All this talk about sabots reminds me of when my mechanical design group got a job to do a finite element analysis design of a sabot for a 5" diameter projectile. I'm not suggesting it would be any good to shoot at BF, I'm a no kill guy. Anyway, the projectiles ended up over Hanoi. Pretty good range coming from a ship in the ocean.

The guy who owned the ML I shot my first deer with wanted to sell it since I had sentimentality attached to it so now I'm the proud owner of a Thompson Center Arms Black Diamond muzzle loader. You know what they say.

Diamonds are a girl's best friend. I think the hubby will inherit that ML when we get one that fits me better.

Jay, you are both right and wrong!
I own and shoot 4 ML's and sell them also as you know and here is the deal...
When you load on a CLEAN barrel, you just drop in your pellets(if you chose to use them...loose is MUCH better) and then load the bullet by FIRMLY pushing down when you hit bottom. You do not however have to jam them down, indeed, doing so might crush one or more pellets and cause inaccuracy or even damage the gun. You push until you feel a SOLID bottom, then no more...so in that regard, you are absolutely right.
On the other hand..
Friends don't let friends shoot powerbelts. Those are a great deal of hype by the manufacturer, but the performance stats have been shown to be clearly inferior to a good saboted bullet. The newer sabot loads such as Hornady SSt/T.C Shockwave(same bullet, different packaging), and better yet, Dead Center bullets, load as easy as shockwaves, lead to a MUCH cleaner and more efficient power burn, and are notably more consistently accurate. That does not even address the actual performance on game. PB's tend to either tumble on impact or not open and lead to a very poor wound channel, often with little external bleeding.
They primary problem with the powerbelts is that they are what is known as a "slip fit" bullet, in that they are actually slightly under bore for their caliber. This was done purely to make them easier to load, as a selling feature..but it does ONLY that and nothing else. Indeed, in every other way, under boring a projectile is the last thing you want to do. In the case of the powerbelt this leads to very inconsistent gas checking from shot to shot, as the way they "work"(and I use the term loosely) is that under pressure from the expanding gas of an ignited charge, the plastic cup at the rear "flares" out and engages the rifling of the barrel. The problem is...this small bit of plasit is barely enough to even touch the rifling, let alone give a good seal. A secondary effect is supposedly that the bullet itself is compressed from behind, and actually "squeezed" into the rifling. This effect also is highy variable(temp, humidity, barrel fouling, all come into play as variables in the actual process...and all can vary greatly from shot to shot, day to day!). Lastly, under bore projectiles give VERY poor gas check, and initially until all that other "stuff" can happen to hopefully allow the bullet to even begin to perform as it's designed, and CHECK the gas, you get lots of needless and harmful blow by of hot gas PAST the powerbelt, and into the barrel ahead of the bullet. This of course leads to further loss of velocity as well as loss of consistency, as well as much greater fouling between shots(the irregular and low pressure that the poor gas check gives you, leads to irregular and poor powder burn).
Standard high pressure sabots such as the ones I mentioned earlier on the other hand...
Are a bit harder to load. BUT..
ALL of the problems and concerns caused by the low seal slip fit "feature"(and they actually advertise that as a feature..when it's all negatives!), are greatly mitigated or removed entirely.
Like I said..friends DON'T let friends shoot powerbelts!!
If you want some help and advice as to how to get real bullets to load fairly easy and shoot well...call or pm me(if you need my number, let me know!). I'll walk you end to end through a simple regimen that will change your thinking on bullets entirely.
Every ML I own gives me Sub MOA(yeah..you read that right) and I rarely get otherwise out of any gun I work a load up for, for friends and family.
Sorry for the rant, but from a sales standpoint, helping my customers get the most out of their purchase, I HATE powerbelts and would rather see them shoot patched round b*lls if nothing else...

Teresa, it may well have been "user error" in the case of the lost deer..but I would guess that in many cases it WAS the powerbelts. See my above post..I believe that more deer are lost with these then all other bullet designs combined. They often tumble, fail to expand, and exhibit at times extraordinarily poor performance. My dad used them one season, and shot one deer(against my advice!). Shot placement was perfect and thankfully due to snow cover and time, we were able to recover the deer. The bullet tumbled at some point(obvious due to the irregular ENTRY wound) and failed to expand at all(well..slightly sideways due to impact). The shot was at a measured 42 yards, and penetration was less then 6". The bullet was recovered about half way into the onside lung, and the deer traveled over 3/4 mile before bedding down. Due to the complete lack of blood, and a constant track of over half a mile(the first night) we opted to back off and continue the attempt at recovery the following day(we only stuck with it that long, given NO sign of a hit, due to my fathers observation of a clear hit reaction, and some half dozen loose hairs on the ground where the deer spun as seen in the snow).
We followed the tracks for another quarter mile the following morning and recovered the deer, by now dead, bedded in a heavy cattail marsh.
Without snow...we would have been done, as we never found a drop of blood outside of the final bed(where there was a spot about the size of a softball.
This is not an isolated story...I cannot tell you how many times I've heard similar, usually without the benefit of a recovery(deer reacted, perhaps a bit of hair or even a tiny bit of blood is found..but that's it).
My guess is that some of the deer lost at your camp might well have been killed, but unless you had snow, or are a world class tracker..following an individual deer for possibly miles, with NO blood, is nearly impossible.
As to the guns themselves..
Based on the number of returns we get for repair...buy a T.C. They are head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of quality(they do NOT break, perios) and mfg tolerances. No one else save M.M.(Knight) is even close, as far as mass produced M.L.'s go. IF for financial reasons you have to go with one of the lesser brands, then BPI(CVA) is likely the best of them. Traditions have a high return and repair rate, at least up north here(they don't like moisture, and their actions are notably less consistent in cold weather).
I own a knight, a Traditions(Winchester rebrand gun), two T.C;s(Omega and White Mountain carbine), and a CVA(.45 Kodiak pro).
Of them, the Omega is the class of the guns from an ease of use and accuracy standpoint, the WMC wins on nostalgia and pure "coolness"(and it's built like a battleship!). The "winchester" is best used as a pry bar to remove my jeep from mud, and I am satisfied by the CVA for what I paid, but that's about it. IF forced to buy anything other then a knight or TC, I'd go with a CVA, likely a Kodiak or the new Accura.
BTW..if you live where it gets cold..do NOT get an Electra(have not read this thread, so no idea if it's been mentioned..but stay far, far away!).
Fit of the firearm was mentioned earlier, and I fully agree with the overall post there. But..I will argue that if there is ANY choice, that if the TC or Knight fits even close to the cheaper guns..buy them, as they will outperform by far in the long run(both in maintaining accuracy, and in not breaking down over time).
Yeah....black powder is one of my things:D