Does anyone have any field recording experience with the Sony PCM-D50?



Several researchers have asked me what I think about this recorder but I don't have any first hand experience. Listed at $599.95 U.S. list price it is in the mid-price range.

I'm hoping someone here has a field recording that they could share to show what type of quality it records.

Thanks,

Stan

Stan, I have not used that, but I have been looking into the possibility of going solid state eventually(not that what I now use does a bad job..it does great, but it's technology that is sadly no longer supported in the U.S.).
One thing that strikes me right off however is that I am not aware of any research level wildlife recording done with any unit with built in mics. The problem with them is that they pick up the noise from the recorder(both physical and electrical) and although solid state recorders have less noise, there is still the potential for some. Also, you are limited to the use of whatever internal pre-amp they have, and, they do not IMO allow for the best signal separation.
If this unit allows for the use of external mic's however,(and thus, a pre-amp as well) I'd guess that pending recording time(I don't like anything that wont go at least 12 hours straight), it should work well.

I would ask the salesperson (or try it out and see) if that device writes directly to the card, or if it caches the recording until you press stop and then writes it. Those type of devices (that cache, and not directly write) tend to lockup when you try to record for a long length of time (more than 10-15 mins even) If you're planning on recording for hours at a time make sure that your device will write directly to the memory card.


I've been using my mini-dv camcorder to record audio. If I'm sitting in one location for a length of time I hook it up to my laptop and record directly on my HD (so I can record for hours, or days at a time even if I wanted to) While it may not work as good as some parabolic mics, most camcorders (including mine) have transducer mics (automatically sets the audio recording level according to the volume of sounds occuring)


I wonder if someplace may have some wav files you can check out (recorded on that device, like sample files for you to listen to)



Anyhow, here is something I recorded using my mini-dv camera (cost me 320 bucks, it's a sony dcr hc21)


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?act...st&id=31653



Compare it to that, and if it sounds better quality then I'd get it!

Here is a page with samples from many of the small portable recoders.

Sound Samples

Stan - that looks like a solid recorder and it has three really nice features as I see it:

1. It has DC-In - which means you can power it with an external battery pack, greatly lengthening recording time.

2. Memory: It is expandable up to the top tier 16GB Sony memory stick?? I'm assuming that it will take that (but specs don't say so for sure one way or the other). If so, you should be able to get over 4 days of nonstop recording in WAV format on the 16GB stick at the highest Kbps bitrate setting.... pretty nice.

3. Sony Manufacturing/Durability: Looks like solid, durable casing and controls... I started recording with a SONY MINI-Disc recorder and the thing is a micro-tank... very solidly built. I like the Sony casings and designed durability a lot.

DC-in is a real plus that folks should not overlook... and a number of the cheaper linear handhelds like the M-Audio Microtek II, Olympus Linear LS-10 and Zoom H2 don't have it...

As the cheaper recorders go, I have an Edirol R-09 that has some of the same nice features of DC-in, mic and line-ins and wav recording... but also MP3 recording capability as well... I have found a good supplier of quality external mics with portable 9V preamp kit that helps improve capture quality... The only downsides on my R-09 are its memory (expandable up to 4GB SDHC media card) - so when i record for over 8 hours, I record in high bitrate MP3... The newest version of the recorder , the R-09HR, has double the memory capacity to 8GB SDHC media card, however...

Also, the casing is kinda chince on my R-09 - polymer - not metal... But I love the recorder and setup and have gotten some very crisp, quality recordings with it.

Actually I am not looking to buy a new recorder for myself. I am planning on doing an article about different recorders in different price ranges.

Someone had mentioned they were interested in this recorder and I was hoping to find someone who had a field recording to share.

Gotcha - cant help there...

If you want field samples for the R-09, however, you are welcome to use THESE.

As for the PCM-D50... Might want to check with the Birding Community....

Also, a field test review is HERE with samples.

Thx.

Chris

Wow Chris,

Thanks for all the links.

Wow everybody, I'm so jealous. I mean it's not so bad as trying to read something in cyrillic- I know you're talking about recording devices but that's about it. It's like reading something in Spanish- I can pick out a probable word meaning here and there, maybe a hint at a phrase but no real idea what's going on. I do learn a lot from the BFF about what I need to learn about so thanks. Have fun, Norcal

Stan,

> Actually I am not looking to buy a new recorder for myself. I am planning on doing an
> article about different recorders in different price ranges.

I've been planning the same, and after much effort actually managed to figure a few important things out. Unfortunately, the data for said article is on a hard drive that recently got physcially damaged. The data is probably intact, but I will have to try to extract it at some point.

In general the Sony is going to have higher gain than the Marantz models (which in turn have somewhat higher gain than the new Olympus recorder, and things go rapidly downhill from there). In battery life testing, the Sony was phenomenal (something like 25 hours in independent tests, which I find very hard to believe). Its chief disadvantage is cost, and that Sony uses its own proprietary memory cards exclusively. The only other possible issue is just how large a memory card can be used in them, as my Marantz PMD-620 is supposed to support up to 4 terrabytes, and its been working well with a 16GB SD card.

In terms of DC in, I have had no luck getting the PMD-620 to work with its AC converter and my parabolic mic. As long as the AC is plugged in and an external mic cable is attached (even if I leave the mic itself unattached) extremely heavy interference makes recording useless. I replaced the mic cable and had the same issue. I was wondering if your Marantz had the same problem. I thought it was just the mic, but even the cable generates the issue for me.

Regards,

P.F.

PF... describe 'heavy interference' if you could. <?>

You wouldn't be trying to run from an hi-z to low-z input would you? Or you're using a balanced mic to an unbalanced connection or input? I don't know anything about the Marantz recorder, but it might<?> be putting out phantom power and a bad cable could account for 'noise'.

Just some thoughts there.

The only way I would buy a Marantz is if it were modified by Oade Brothers to fix the horribly noise pre-amps. They worked on my PMD 670 and it went from mediocre to very good.

I've been using ZoomH2's. With a 16gb card it records like 24hrs. of 16-bit/44.1kHz WAV files. I get 2gb file sizes after about 8 straight hrs. of recording...very easy to use and many features for the $$.

trin

I started a series of posts about Field Recorders and the H2 is the first one I posted about.

Field Recorders Part 1

GuyInIndiana,

> PF... describe 'heavy interference' if you could. <?>

The DB meter goes from -40 (no AC) to about -10 (with AC) with just the cable attached. In terms of loudness its about like recording with the mic next to a blender. It sounds a bit like an electric razor, I think.

> You wouldn't be trying to run from an hi-z to low-z input would you? Or you're using a balanced
> mic to an unbalanced connection or input?

I'm kind of new to all this, and the parabolic is a borrowed unit. I'm blanking on the name at the moment, so I will have to get back to you. It takes a 9v, so its powered, but presumably not 48v phantom powered. Everything works fine until I add the AC adapter into the mix.

The same sort of thing happened with a plain old cassette recorder I tried using with either the parabolic or my unpowered standard mic (sorry, blanking even on simple terms today -- apparently I am getting old because I'm having senior moments). Which is why I haven't actually blamed the Marantz. That attempt is all a long complicated -- 'tragic' if you knew the details -- story of how everything goes wrong at the worst possible time when trying to record audio.

> I don't know anything about the Marantz recorder, but it might<?> be putting out phantom power and
> a bad cable could account for 'noise'.

Any help would be appreciated. Basically without the AC use semi-continuous monitoring is not going to be possible.

The Marantz is switchable between supplying power and not supplying it, and I have it switched to not supply with the Parabolic attached. I did replace the cable with a new one.

Stan,

> The only way I would buy a Marantz is if it were modified by Oade Brothers to fix the
> horribly noise pre-amps. They worked on my PMD 670 and it went from mediocre to
> very good.

From your website I knew you were using a 670, I'm not sure if I knew it was Oade-ified. That factored in partially to me choosing them.

In terms of exhaustively looking at reviews, and in terms of unmodified recorders, the Marantz's were somewhat poorer than the Sony, and somewhat better than the Olympus (in terms of gain, and to a lesser extent self noise). In reviews of my 620, it actually performed better than some other more expensive Marantz models. Oade Brother's versions would have to be a later option for me, as I'm trying to get together as much equipment as possible in the shortest amount of time (and failing miserably at it) within budget constraints. The Edirols have issues, the Zooms each have their issues (severe complications to say the least), the M-Audio 96/24 (or whatever its called) performs fair but whose meager built in battery only makes it useful for brief recording sessions. The Sony was the only recorder that pretty much got flawless reviews (except for the issues I mentioned), but its a $500 piece of hardware that's likely to to get left exposed in the woods at night. Basically its a fairly simple equation (with minor exceptions), as price decreases so does the usefulness of the device. Naturalists claims the final versions of the Sony MiniDisc recorders were the best for field recording of wildlife, but there is very little documentary evidence, and the people doing serious reviews of the new digital recorders aren't doing comparisons.

Frankly, the circada/kricket/general insect/frog noises pretty much overwhelm any amount of self noise the Marantz can put out by several orders of magnitude. Thankful that is over here. Now I can just start freezing to death.

Out of time today, I look forward to seeing your posts on the topic.

I am using minidisc from about 3 years ago, and so far have been very impressed with it. Sadly they are no longer supported here, so I'll have to go to solid state eventually. I really like the quality of the recordings, plus the fact that if you get something you really want to keep an original copy of, you can just keep that disc. Set at lower quality levels(still fine for general field recordings), it can record for up to 34 hours if you have an AC power source, or, 15 or so hours on it's battery(plus the auxilary)l.

Technology always keeps changing, and not necessarily for the better. Some day our grandkids will ask what film cameras are?

I posted my second post in a series about Field Recorders and the Sony PCM-D50 is the one featured this time.

Field Recorders Part 2

> I am using minidisc from about 3 years ago, and so far have been very impressed with it.
> Sadly they are no longer supported here, so I'll have to go to solid state eventually.

Yes, the early Sony MD's had serious issues because of Sony's absolute paranoia about copyright infringement. To the extent that their MD recorders wouldn't allow you to extract your *own* recorded audio in a digital format, just in analog. As those of of present know, in the audio recording world, Digital to Analog to Digital conversions are not a great idea. Eventually they figured out this was a bad idea (one they repeat with every new technology they market), dropped the mandatory digital rights prison, and improved the quality of the preamps. The final models are supposed to be really, really good, mainly because of those preamps, and even some of the less expensive models have been suggested for use as preamps to cheaper digital recorders (i.e., microphone, to MD, to Digital Recorder).

The problem with most of the curent personal digital recorders are they are designed for recording muscians (i.e. rock bands, etc.) in close proximity. In short, really loud sounds at point blank range are their target environment. That may be a BF audiologist's dream -- or nightmare -- scenario, but it seldom happens. Therefore their gain levels are low, and so they are unable to record at all, or record well, quieter sounds, particularly at a distance. Since a good preamp costs several hundred dollars, using a cheaper MD in analog mode as a preamp isn't a bad idea. Until Sony stopped making them, the really good models became very expensive or unobtanium, and the mid-range models aren't exactly cheap anymore. So, in theory, if one can get the cabling right (impedence issues?), adding a mid-range MD between your microphone and a Zoom *might* improve your ability to record by boosting the available gain. Though obvously, any piece of hardware you add inline is going to add whatever self-noise is associated with it.

I just wish we had a documented technical comparison between the two technologies.

I should have been a bit more specific on what I use.
It's a Sony MZ-RH910, http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-M10+RH910.html
This is one of the later generation HI-MD recorders, and it is just a wonderful tool for field recording.
I have used it almost exclusively in "low" quality mode due to the need to cover an entire night(we record dusk till some time mid morning..and in hindsight, we need to figure a way to record 24/7), but if you need, it can record for an hour and a half in lossless sound. I only wish that I'd been ready a few times in the last year to use it in that mode....
I plan one more major purchase of recording media, which should allow me to continue to use this for several years. When it finally dies...hopefully quality solid state will be priced where I can afford it.

Yes, the built in mics on the small solid state digital recorders can suffer from handling noise, and wind noise, if some kind of windscreen is not used. They are sure handy for the purpose of always being ready to record at a moments notice on walks in the field. I've heard many good things about the sound quality of the internal mics on the Zoom H2, but not the same good things about the external mic input, as far as the preamp noise . That shouldn't be a problem though, if one never plans on using an external mic, and can develope a knack for hand holding it, quietly.
The Sony PCM-D50 does very well on the preamp noisefloor levels, coming close to the low noise mic input preamp of the Sony HD minidisc. I don't know much else about the PCM-D50, but it looks to have a very solid build. I'm looking for another pocket recorder, myself. If it was just a bit smaller.... which I'm hoping Sony will consider a "little brother" pocket version for a bit less $$ in the future...hear that, Sony ? I'm also considering the Olympus LS-10, that has a solid build and has gotten good reviews, but I don't believe is in the same league with the PCM-D50.

Bill R.

I like the h2 as well... use one like it very much and very versatile.

I still use the Sony MZ-NH1 , and can't say enough good things about it, as far as the sound quality goes, and have made some of my better recordings with it.
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-NH1.html
I am having problems now, reading the smallish display in the dark, and the tiny jog buttons can be a pain, sometimes. I like the idea of downloading my recording files directly to my PC (as with the solid state portable digital recorders), and not going through the Sony Sonic Stage software, which has (older versions) given me a few problems in the past.
Yes, the minidisc forum is a dying one, unfortunately.

Bill R.