There were several threads on Michigan, but none were generalized, so I thought I would create this.

These are topographic maps created using data from Mangani's Bigfoot Map project. He has newer data available but I haven't had the time to do updates to my personalized version. His latest releases can be viewed via Google Earth (follow his directions carefully) or via PC with commercial software. The data are from on publicly available online databases. Any questions about these particular *JPG files* should be sent to me

http://penn.freeservers.com/bigfootmaps/

If you find the data useful, please thank him for it: http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showuser=846

I have made modifications and this version of the maps show dates. These only show Sighting and Track information, not Audible reports, as I don't place as much emphasis on these. If interest is shown I can provide updated maps and an audible report map. The green areas indicate managed lands (national/state forests, parks, wildlife areas, etc.). Smaller reserves generally show up as tree icons. Non-green areas are not necessarily lacking tree cover. The black squares are the reports.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

P.F.

More maps.

What about reports from da UP, eh?

To far away for me to really care about, and more recently, too poorly investigated to give any real consideration.

There are a few up there that look decent, but over the last few years there has been to much convolution thrown into the mix for me to take a lot of them very seriously, what with the BFRO expedition to the area, and Lisa Shiel being there.

Ok, but if this is to be a thread on Michigan Sas activity, I don't see why so much of the state would be left out, especially since the area is more remote than the lower peninsula. It is not too far away for everyone, some people actually live up there.

True, but at the time the maps were done, he simply not interested in the UP as such. Therefore.he did not do maps. No different then someone from say, South Florida doing a map of that area if that' where they were interested, and NOT worrying about the panhandle.

I have looked at what Lisa has to offer.. moving on to the maps , there is possibly alot of info there if one could compile the data and find patterns of some kind, assuming the asumptions of course. my idea is just to get into a ( asumed ) BF area and spend some time there.. meaning alot..and see what there is to see, hear or shoot..

scibaer
I have been reading your posts for the past few weeks and i am not that fond that you want to shoot one of these bigfoots,but this does not worry me much as far as you safety goes.They will hurt you very bad and i mean very bad.It would be better that you focus on just observing them rather then trying to kill one...Take my advice please.For your own protection.
The Huron national forest area is the area of focus that these creatures can be located.From the east of Michigan upper part of the mitten to the west of Michigan they roam.Along the asable river.Foley was just an area thay happen to be at a time.September through December and then back in spring.There was said that there was an old house built deep in Foley that was half torn down that they might be using for shelter.We could never find it but we never went that far back into foley like I wanted to, to search for it.I am more brave now and am more willing to go deep into those woods with who ever is willing to camp in there with me.I am very sure that we will make contact with these creatures.

Ok, so this is a generalized thread for the lower peninsula data? Just askin' as some do go up there and look around, so thought there might have been some reports to add for us. I don't know how the maps were made, or background on who made them, etc but did notice sightings marked on the Mangani maps site (though have not yet figured out how to use the maps). But thanks for compiling this data! I am from MI and have spent much time out in the woods there, in several areas of the state, so find it interesting to read reports on sightings there and to see the distribution on the maps. I live in Indiana now and spend most of my vacation time in MI, camping and visiting family. Back in the 70's and 80's, I lived outside of Flint. There were numerous reports of BF sightings in the area around that time (probably around 1980) and it turned out to be some dude in a suit. I don't see those on the map, but in that same area there is one listed for 2004.

My sympathies.

(From someone who was born, raised and still lives outside of, Flint.)

And you have mine... I left long ago. Strange place.

Yeah, it sucks... nobody who lives outside of Flint ever really goes there for much unless they have to.

I think the Au Sable river in Crawford or Oscoda County is the most promising of areas. I just recently shifted my focus there from the Black Mountain area. Another good spot just too far for me to travel often.

After reviewing all the stats i could get my hands on , and reading many posts here, i came to the same basic conclusion, that BF follows the ausable river, benefiting from what it provides as for shelter and food. someone mentioned that michigan has island like qualities , making for a funneling effect. i see BF following the river into and out of michigan accounting for the time/location vs. the summer/winter sightings.

i wont appologize for my belief that we need physical proof, i.e a body, for scientific description, study and biological information relating to BF's. i just wonder how further back this all would have been resolved if any one of the poeple who saw BF did infact take one. i dont assume that anyone would want me to make an appology for how i view this subject just as i dont them. as for my personal safety, thank you for being concerned, rest assured that iam fully capable of handling myself in any outdoor hunting type setting should that situation arise. my goal is not, not to specifically hunt BF down , but rather to further amateur and scientific study, assuming they exist in the first place.
camping in foley for an extented period of time is exactly what is needed, making observations and collecting data. but i see how other research groups have done it, call blasting is distasteful at best, and other forms of seeking BF out, is not how it should be done. i have my own ideas as to how to search and will try them out in foley.
but i would love to get together with members here and take a weekend to scout out the swamp.
i never heard that there was a house out there, but that would be very interesting indeed.

What about call blasting is distasteful to you? I have never used it myself, mostly because I don't have equipment to do it.

I'm an experienced hunter and have guided hunts. I have never used sounds, on tape or otherwise to call in game. whether it be coyotes, hogs, bears or whitetails calling has never been that productive. ok, so BF researchers set up semi expensive equipment, blast primate sounds off into the forest or wherever with the hopes that a BF will call back.
problems with call blasting are
1. we cannot be sure that a BF will respond to just any primate vocalizations
2. we just dont know what "message" we are sending
3. we cannot be sure that BF vocalocates in the first place
4. where is the evidence that primates in the wild vocalize at excessive ( 90 + db ) levels in the wild.
but the primary reason is that call blasting disrupts the natural enviroment, sending sounds and vibrations at such a decibel level as to be unnatural. and i feel that call blasting does more harm then good.
now i will concede that #4, gibbons and some monkeys do make very loud calls, but the volume is limited in distance by frequency range. the higher ranges do not carry well, shorter wave lengths deflect easily and loose energy. we amplify the entire range of the vocalization and present it in an unnatural state and animals can tell the difference, especially the ones that depend more on sounds then visualization.
when we hear supposed BF calls, regardless of what we think about how far off the sounds originate from, unless we can see BF calling we cant be sure as to the distance, echo's or reverberation from the terrain and the call getting deflected all will change how it sounds to us. BF may be alot closer then we think, there could be a sub audible tone of very low frequency ( say below 40 Hz ) that we cannot hear or super high freq's ( again just guessing, 25,000 hz ) and we are missing alot of the message.
sure we record what we think is a BF howl, but all but the highest quality equipment cannot reproduce them cleanly enough to be accurate, therefore we are sending back only certain parts of the call, possibly sounding like a deaf person trying to speak. BF may think we are a bunch of half deaf skinny primates and not want to be anywhere near us or we could be telling BF to stay clear of us. and the primary volume is another issue, if BF is 100 yards away and we "blast" a 125 db call, from 20 Hz to 15,000 Hz call, it would certainly over power him/her spooking them off, we could be preceived as a larger dominate male.
so, as research time is costly and precious , i'd rather not make mistakes in call blasting, rather if i hear BF sounds, move into a downwind position and advance in the direction of the call. not blast who knows what for sure noise into the enviroment and disrupt the research.

Right...we could be saying, "RUN FOR THE HILLS, THE SKINNY PRIMATES ARE OUT HERE AGAIN!"
Seriously you make valid and good points especially in regards to disrupting nature. For me when I hear something "loud" in the woods it is linked to us.
Using your points I support my way of going about it. I don't believe traditional hunting techniques will be very productive. I feel a "just being in the woods" method will. Of coarse being just my opinion.

scibaer
Sounds like you have done your home work on these creatures.I personaly use my own vocals and this works just fine.It is best to go out there and let them know that you are out in that area and then head back to camp and wait .They will come to you.What i have learned about these creatures is that they never leave tracks unless they want too.In other words they are the ones who are in control of the situation.If they leave any evidence behind it is because they wanted too.If you have guided Hunters you will see that these creatures do things with purpose.As time goes by you will understand what i mean by this.

You will also understand that they are not animals like we understand them ,if you are a person who is of intrest to these creatures you will understand what i mean.As time goes by these creatures will mean something to you as you gain understanding of them.Once you have had your own sighting or real encounter your life will never be the same.

Ps:I would like to meet you one day up north,maybe even Hike up there with ya in foley Pm me if you would like any help
Mark A

Ever been in the woods when a black bear or elk run past ? you'd surprised just how quiet they are.
The basics work best.. light, noise, scent and color disipline work best. nearly all "hunting" clothing has UV brighteners in them to make them more attractive to the human eye ( in the store for increased sales ) human made noises like the human voice ( 362 Hz on average ) carry very far in the woods, especially at night when sounds travel further anyhow. so, if you have this type of thing in mind, you are on the right track when in the woods. directional mics, flashlights, call blasting equipement and 5 or 6 people all in the woods with walkie-talkies is not likely to produce authenic results.

Julio12, i did have an encounter, so has my brother, sister in law and father. all while hunting in the black lake swamp area. my encounter, in short, was this. i went down river in canoe, and landed on a flat beach at the only place the banks were not very steep. built a fire and when it became dark, "something" tried to cross at the low spot, but was blocked because i was there, it made all kinds of grunts, stomps and paced up and down the river bank on the other side of the river. i only caught glimpses of the animal as it shook trees and stomped around. this went on until i got into my canoe and went back down river. was it a BF i dunno , i cant say for sure because i dont have the body or any other evidence. was i scared, not really but it did have my full attention.

i appreciate the offer to hike about in foley. we can definately make that happen.
glenn

Or the opposite, a chipmunk can sound like an elephant at night.

Right, without saying so i tried to imply that in post #17. I have noticed a phenomenon that i have yet to find a good workable understanding of. at night when it is fully dark sounds carry further and seem louder. mark off a specific distance in your yard. at noon say,make a noise thats repeatable, say snap your finger, then at 10 pm, at the same distance snap again. you can record and notice that the snap at 10 will be louder and will carry further. i find this very interesting. now if BF is 100 yards away and it grunts this will sound much closer then when the sun is up. im not sure what causes this or possibly attenuates or cancels out sounds when the sun is up. but its something to keep in mind when in the field. on the squirrel note, nothing i have ever heard has made more noise then a wild hog coming thru the woods. the little tanks just push past whatever is in front of them and they sound out lol
glenn

Saaz,

> Ok, but if this is to be a thread on Michigan Sas activity, I don't see why so much of the
> state would be left out, especially since the area is more remote than the lower peninsula.
> It is not too far away for everyone, some people actually live up there.

Excellent point. There are five chief reasons for this.

1. My software doesn't make state boundaries very clear.
2. Not being from Michigan I didn't *obviously* realize what I was leaving out. Now that you mention it, I realize I actually do know there is more to the state, but at the time I just missed it.
3. I've been under considerible time pressures the last few weeks, and have consequently been making mistakes.
4. I've been in quite a bit of physical pain, and am not getting as much sleep as is required for me to function correctly.
5. Did I mention I'm an idiot?

I'll try to correct the error within a few days, and I didn't mean to leave out the UP. I simply was fixated on the problem of getting as much of the state imaged while using a scale that makes the sightings somewhat useful (hence splitting the main part into two). Because its physically connected to Wisconsin, and not to the rest of Michigan (in terms of land) I tend to just "lump it in" along with that state... in the chaotic excuse for a brain I have.

And, obviously, none of this is Mangani's fault. I'm just using (abusing?) his data.

Again, deepest apologies,

P.F.

PF - No offense taken, and I appreciate your efforts. That said, this isn't the first time I've seen a map of MI leave out half the state! Having lived for many years up there, it is just something I notice. On the other hand, it keeps the place more obscure and a 'secret' of the locals. We like the fact the area is relatively forgotten, in a sense. I had been wondering if I had run into a lower MI BF clique thread, but that doesn't seem to be the case really. Where is the 'troll' smiley when I need it? And for those who are not aware, i'm not talking about forum trolls, but those who live 'below the bridge' - it's a MI thing.

I have also been wondering, thinking about this 'island' effect, and corridors... maybe it would also be interesting to map sightings just outside MI borders, like in OH, IN and WI. If they cluster along areas of high traffic, such as route 80 or 90, for instance, this would possibly indicate BF migrated north/south, into and out of MI. Sort of like a funneling effect. And in an area like the eastern UP, could BF essentially get trapped? Look at all the surrounding waters... of course, they could just turn around and go back west. Another thing I was wondering about was comments on BF following the AuSable river. Looking at the maps briefly, it appeared to me that sightings were clustered near water, such as rivers. Is this because people also tend to be attracted to water, for fishing and recreation, and are therefore more likely to have sightings near water? Or is it just from a natural tendency of animals to go to water, for the water itself, or the opportunities for food. At any rate, and not that I'm asking anyone to do this, but would be interesting to categorize water related sightings vs those sightings where bodies of water were nowhere near (not that that is possible in a state such as MI, where water is essentially everywhere). sorry, i'm rambling... btw, I can totally relate to lack of sleep, having had extended periods of insomnia in my life! Very sorry to hear, sometimes it is just a struggle to get through the next hour as I'm sure you know.

Saaz,

Here it is. If there are any other issues, please let me know.

I appreciate the comments and have some responses, but I am completely out of time today and will have to reply later.

Click to view attachment

You're awesome, thanks!

Saaz,

> You're awesome, thanks!

The credit should all go to Mangani. My maps are just my own presentation of his data, and he has done all the hard work of plotting over 6,000 reports. Believe me, each report takes serious effort to plot correctly... I know. *Please* use the link to his profile to let him know that he is making a difference.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showuser=846

The other person that is truly awesome is Jim Flowers who gave us the link to his own work, which seems to be indepedent from Mangani's, and who has also provided an analytical framework of what he thinks is going on in lower Michigan. Combining a reading of the two could be further enlightening. I suggest forgiving him for not including the U.P., as it was out of his range of activity. Sometimes practicality comes before technicality.

As to this being a lower Michigan only thread, I did consider that since there was already a UP thread ( http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=19960 ), but I decided since there was limited traffic going on in that thread that I would just create a new (total) Michigan area, and people can post where they want. One could argue that *geographically* the U.P. would belong to a Wisconsin regional discussion (as the BF probably don't recognize our state lines). But I understand fully why the people living there would consider this a truly idiotic idea.

As an aside, Jim, what the heck is bigfootdiscussions.invisionzone.com, and why does its layout look so much like the BFF's? Are they related? Apologies for my ignorance.

P.F.

Glenn,

> Right, without saying so i tried to imply that in post #17. I have noticed a phenomenon
> that i have yet to find a good workable understanding of. at night when it is fully dark
> sounds carry further and seem louder.

I would look into changes in temperature effecting air density, and that effects the transmission of sound. Humidity might be a lesser factor. The other factors would be partially psychological (there's fewer other noise sources at night so it seems louder). I don't have time to try to Google™ up an answer for you but if the phenomena is real that seems to be the most likely explanation. I'm still arguing with people about the apparent size of the moon being different so that's higher on my to do list.

Good luck,

P.F.

PF, back when i was first working on my AA degree, i had a astronomy and geology classes, the topic of the moon looking larger then normal on occasions was discussed in both classes. regardless of how it looks, yellow, red, orange or three times it regular size , the moon does not change colors or get bigger. lol, but it sure has some folks fooled.
its color change is due to atmospheric changes. you know all this. and most radio enthueists know that the ionosphere and solar activity is responsible for 'skip'. my first best guess is that this sounds atenuation has its base is this area as well. and air temps effects are most likely in there too.
or maybe the hunters moon gives special powers to sounds waves. lol.. good luck to your efforts as well
glenn

Sure, I will thank him, but you should give yourself some credit for putting in the effort. Jim is not interested in the UP reports: That said, i actually did already say 'thanks' for the maps, as no one has to do any of this, it is all on your own free time, and i don't like to b*tch about things people do on their own initiative on their precious free time. The maps are all great, so if it wasn't clear before, I do thank you all! I didn't find the UP thread, there are so many threads here, and I don't have tons of time to navigate the site, so thanks for the UP link. The thread title states it is a general MI thread, so seems like it should include the whole state... just my opinion. Feel free to not include the UP, I just got excited when I saw a MI thread, but then my favorite part of the state was left out. Not a big deal, really.

I am interested as the UP is the part of MI I normally am visiting, though lower LP is much closer to me right now. Perhaps I am not the only forum member (or visitor) who frequents the area. I am a scientist and appreciate a complete and (as much as possible in this sort of situation) unbiased data set. All reports should be held to the same standard, like, should all the LP reports be left in, what is up with those in the metro Detroit area. BF really goes there?? Maybe, i mean, i have an open mind, just seems more unlikely than usual. And why does the fact that a BFRO expedition went to the UP matter, what about earlier reports? Sorry, i'm new to the forum, and actually have to wonder about the BFRO stuff, i mean, every sound in the woods is not BF. I have no idea what the deal is with Lisa Shiel. I found her website and didn't see reports, but maybe one has to sign up to see them. Lots of talk of aliens, etc, so can see why some of them would be left out.

I'll take that one since he's at work today.... BFD is not related officially to BFF, however nearly everyone there met here and participates on both boards. Contrary to popular opinion (and some peoples' efforts), there is no animosity between boards and most of the staff from both also contribute to both. BFD is just much smaller and much less P.C. (with mixed results LOL). Everyone is welcome, although we show much less tolerance for people who just want to be jerks. We do discuss bigfoot-related issues and events, but for the most part we just hang out, goof off, and have fun. The reason that the layout is alike is because they're both Invision forums... go to any Invision forum and the basic layout is nearly identical. It did used to be really nice green and yellow shades, but a couple of upgrades ago something went whacky and the only color scheme that allowed everything to work right was the original Invision blue. Dang it.

Saaz, a group of people (who ALL met here) took a week long U.P. trip three years ago which was absolutely wonderful. We didn't find anything remotely bigfooty, but had a wonderful time and got to see some gorgeous, gorgeous country. I'll PM you a link to some pics.

Thanks StacyInMI! Sorry my last post sort of ran on... should have been in the beer thread last night!

> PF, back when i was first working on my AA degree, i had a astronomy and geology classes,
> the topic of the moon looking larger then normal on occasions was discussed in both classes.
> regardless of how it looks, yellow, red, orange or three times it regular size , the moon does
> not change colors or get bigger. lol, but it sure has some folks fooled.

Going severely off topic, my own contention is that while the moon itself does not change size, its apparent diameter can change due to atmospheric distortion when it is near the horizon. We have all seen the sun squashed into a huge gigantic oval close to sunset. In fact, often the sun has already set and what we are seeing is a lensing effect due to the atmosphere curving the light around the surface of the earth. There has been a *big* push by Skeptics to get TV and print stories out that this never, ever, *ever*, happens with the moon, that it always will have the same size on a given night irregardless of its position in the sky.

I have two theories for why this is going on. Either the effect lessens closer to the equator and the Sketics behind it are much farther south than I am, or the Skeptics never bother to go out and look at the sun or the moon near dawn or dusk.

Or I'm wrong.

Saaz,

> Sure, I will thank him, but you should give yourself some credit for putting in the effort.

Remember, I'm just providing small snippets of maps (using his data) on individual topics on the BFF and to other interested parties. He has provided maps of reports on the USA & Canada to *everyone* with broadband via Google Earth (and more). My own mapping efforts are insignificant in comparison to what he has done, and having done this sort of work myself I can't begin to even estimate the amount of effort he has put in, and the same goes for the value of his maps. In addition to that -- like everyone -- he gets the occassional, usually completely unwarranted, unpleasant response to his efforts. So positive responses do count. I'm actually trying to assist him on the project, but while I have done quite a bit of work my "mini-projects" haven't been completed so I actually haven't delivered anything yet (what I'm doing should draw some interesting comments, I would guess). Of course, the reports are all available because BF organizations have provided the data in the first place, and they should be thanked as well.

> That said, i actually did already say 'thanks' for the maps, as no one has to do any of this, it is all on
> your own free time, and i don't like to b*tch about things people do on their own initiative on their
> precious free time. The maps are all great, so if it wasn't clear before, I do thank you all!

That's great, and very appreciated. From my own perpspective, I keep on thanking Mangani because I use the maps almost every day, and the magnitude of it all just never diminishes.

> The thread title states it is a general MI thread, so seems like it should include the whole state...
> just my opinion. Feel free to not include the UP, I just got excited when I saw a MI thread, but
> then my favorite part of the state was left out. Not a big deal, really.

Well, ideally every state should have a thread for the entire state, IMHO. So I'm slowly trying to fill the gap (slowly). If people want to post in the UP thread, more power to them, or if they want to start another thread, that's fine too. On the other hand, if people want to centralize stuff in one place, that might be a bit easier to figure out. Michigan is a bit aways for me, outside of my ballpark so to speak. The UP would probably be the easiest to visit, but not by much (mainly just because I wouldn't have to drive through Chicago). But that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what happens in Michigan, or that what happens there doesn't have a bearing on understanding what's going on in surrounding areas, or the entire continent.

> I am interested as the UP is the part of MI I normally am visiting, though lower LP is much closer
> to me right now. Perhaps I am not the only forum member (or visitor) who frequents the area.

I'm not sure what would be the best way to connect with people to look in a particular area. The "state based" thread approach is the best solution I have come up with yet. I guess the Expedition section of the forum would be a place to start, but I'm sure that a lot of people overlook it (I know I haven't paid due attention to it).

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showforum=89

> I am a scientist and appreciate a complete and (as much as possible in this sort of situation) unbiased
> data set. All reports should be held to the same standard,

From my take, the most unbiased data set is the least filtered. The essential tools of this field in assessing the report are interviewing skills (assessing truthfulness and eliciting detail) and forensic examination (assuming there is anything to examine). Neither of these really tend to provide a conclusive answer as to whether a given report is true or not. Some investigators develop "test questions", and if a subject doesn't supply the expected answers they consider it an invalid report. If the test questions *are* universally applicable, and all witnesses *perfectly* able to correctly remember those details, then that technique would work... but I have some doubts. In any case, the vast majority of reports are going to have been investigated by someone else, and you have no real idea of their technique, or if there cases are valid. For myself, I use an electron cloud model derived from science. In an electron shell, there are electrons, but one doesn't know where they are, so they are thought of as an abstraction with the electrons being everywhere. Similarly, I tend to accept reports at their face value, unless there is some obvious reason to question them, with full certainty that some of them are invalid and I will never know which ones are. But I do think that somewhere in that "cloud" the "electrons" do exist, and I work on that basis. If the congolmeration seems to make sense as a whole, the flaws that cannot be removed are included in the bargain. If the invalid reports drown out the valid ones then things shouldn't make much sense.

> like, should all the LP reports be left in, what is up with those in the metro Detroit area. BF
> really goes there?? Maybe, i mean, i have an open mind, just seems more unlikely than usual.

Here's my take on the issue, for what its worth. After looking at most of the 6,000+ data points on Mangani's maps, and throwning in the private cases or myself and my research associate (where the witnesses want confidentiality), a lot of my ideas about BF behavior have changed -- I've looked at a lot of data and decided that a lot of my ideas seem to have been wrong. In terms of BF showing up in areas we don't expect them to, particularly urban areas, there are a number of issues. The first is if they are going from point A to point B, they are not that concerned about what is inbetween. They will deviate a bit when they have to, such as around a major city. But they really don't seem to be that concerned. The reason is that they can get away with almost anything at night, when we are particularly oblivious to what is going on (in part because of our senses, in part because of our culture). If they couldn't we would already have many dead bodies or specimens in zoos.

Here's an example of what a "dumb" animal can get away with in a city (I'll leave you to decide if it was the human or non-human I am talking about). On one occassion, in the middle of a moderate sized city, I looked out the passenger window and saw a donkey running beside the car. Yes, just like in Shrek, except it didn't talk. I pointed this out to the driver, who slowed down, the donkey ran in front of the car and across the opposite lane of traffic and straight into a cast iron fence enclosing a very small park area. After it picked itself up it then started running down the sidewalk. So, at my insistence (because the driver didn't want to get involved), we stopped and I called the police. Basically I was treated like an idiot, almost accused of making a hoax call, and was finally told that what I saw was a *deer*, and the police "just let deer wander out of edge of the city on their own". I pointed out that it wasn't a deer, that it was running around in traffic in the middle of the city where someone would hit it with their car, it wasn't capable of finding its way out of town, and if the police came they could probably catch it as it was a domesticated animal and just wanted to get away from traffic. Couldn't an animal control officer be dispatched? Again I was told that the police do not respond to *deer* reports, and that there were no animal control officers (which wasn't true) or anyone else to resort to such as the local animal shelter (which may have been true because they sure weren't answering their phone the next day when I tried to get them to go look for the "deer"). So, without any official help, without knowing the current location of the animal after this protracted conversation, and without any way to capture or contain it (let alone transport it) we had to leave it to its fate. So, what would have happened if I had looked out a window and saw a Bigfoot running down the street? Pretty much the same thing.

But in general, they don't run down streets in the middle of cities. They go around the edges of cities, through suburbs, using parks when available. They generally do this at night. The worst that will happen is some dogs will bark at them. If a person sees them they either won't do anything or won't be believed if they try to get help. Generally they won't get shot at in a city as that would be a firearms violation (and shooting at imaginary animals in a neighborhood is frowned upon, and in addition to jail time could get you a long hospital vacation). In almost any given enviroment they can outmanuever foot or vehicle pursuit because they aren't limited to roads and can move very fast. Police officers are the only people that are a real danger to them, and they are unlikely to fire on the chance that its a hoaxster in a costume. Even if they fire and miss, the report (if truthful) could ruin their career. In general, when shot BF just keep going, and most shots probably miss. Frankly, in most places, other than truck drivers, the only people out and about in the wee hours of the morning are intoxicated or very tired, or have professional reasons for not noticing anything they wouldn't want on their permanent record. Add to this the fact that they are very good at hiding -- even in plain sight -- and they can get away with a lot on the edges of civilization. And if you think about it very hard there are a lot more sightings that aren't in the online databases (in newspaper reports, books, and private files) so those aren't on these maps, there are even more sightings that don't get reported to BF researchers (particularly in cities, where they would less likely to be believed), and there is probably much more BF activity than we have a clue about. Even around cities.

The other factors are that the reports closest to cities tend to be older, most of these cities were much smaller when those reports were made, and the sighting may have been in a completely undeveloped area at the time. As time goes on the reports tend to get farther away from the center of the cities which indicates they are displacing their travel to avoid attention. Even today, when you zoom in on report areas they tend to be on the outskirts in many cases, or still in areas that are undeveloped (apparently because they are marshy). Frankly, I believe some of the reports occur as close to cities as they do because the individual was trying to take a short cut, or do a bit of exploring, and got closer than they intended.

Sorry if I seem rather definitive about this, but I have my reasons for respecting them a lot more than most people and for believing we are not the match for them that most people would think we are. If the above isn't satisfactory I am willing to discuss it further.

> And why does the fact that a BFRO expedition went to the UP matter, what about earlier reports?
> Sorry, i'm new to the forum, and actually have to wonder about the BFRO stuff, i mean, every
> sound in the woods is not BF.

I'm not a member of the BFRO, so I can only speak indirectly about them. The BFRO was a serious attempt to form a large organization of researchers who would work together to resolve the issue of BF. And for a long time this seemed to work well. Basically, individual researchers in various areas would join, and they would act as field agents, and do the actual investigation. For particularly important cases, core members might join in as well. While the investigators were independent, what went into the databases was decided by a committee system that had a final evaluation of the reports. If anyone was concerned with a report, it was essentially black-balled and left out. This frustrates both "inclusionists" like me (who would like to make my own determination about the validity of reports) and witnesses who cooperated and then ended up getting ignored. Many (but strangely not all) historical reports fell into this category, because there was no first person witness to contact. On the plus side, this tended to help keep unsubstantiated or hoaxed reports out.

From what I read the problems began when the leader of the organization requested all investigators sign a document making all their work the property of the organization. Soon researchers started to leave the organization. Infighting began, power struggles occurred. "Expeditions" started to be formed, where non-members would pay $300-$400 to go with the BFRO to public lands to look for BF. They would have to provide their own food, transportation, etc., and they were essentially paying the money for being allowed to go and for the expertise of the BFRO members. This was seen as a little questionable, but its hard to keep an organization going without an income stream. What appeared to happen next (from what I've heard and read) is that the focus went from gathering information to generating income. If you went on an expedition and paid your money, you were "almost certain" to become a member of the organization. The number of people on an expedition began to grow, and I've read targets of up to 100 people on a single expeditin (at least theoretically). I think the number is actually more like 20-40. If I were a BF, and that many people showed up in SUVs, I certainly wouldn't be anywhere in the vicinity. The next issue became that on almost every BFRO expedition (at least this is what others have alleged) "something happens". The "something" doesn't usually get documented with A/V equipment, or if it does it ususally isn't very convincing at all. There have been accusations of hoaxing but little evidence. Add to this the fact that the more advanced equipment that the BFRO has still seems to be being donated by private individuals, and that there doesn't seem to be much new equipment cropping up in field reports (40 people at $300/each 10-20 times per year should generate enough income for a lot of thermal cams (etc.), IMHO) and one begins to wonder what is actually going on. In certain areas there seems to be a general tendancy to look upon the BFRO Expeditions as either non-productive, entertainment only, or worse in their nature. The sad part is that whatever the nature of the expeditions, the attitude has drifted from coloring judgements on the findings of the "commercialized" aspect of the group to a more generalized disdain for anything related to the BFRO, past, present, or future. Including all the reports from the many field researchers scattered throughout the country who aren't compensated (to the best of my knowledge) for their efforts, and therefore are not "fruit of any (alleged) poisonous trees". Supposedly they are developing a new TV series, and its hard to say what direction that will push the situation towards. My preference would be for the organization to reform itself and find a way back to a purely investigative mode.

As I said, I've never been a member of BFRO, this is the perspective I've gained as an outsider, provided in response to a direct question. I hope that it will be seen as an attempt at an objective viewpoint without an axe to grind. It could be entirely incorrect, in either direction. I don't wish to start or get drawn into a discussion of the merits of the BFRO, *particularly* not in this thread. If I'm wrong, please start a thread somewhere else and peel my hide off.

What has this to do with Michigan? The BFRO has had expeditions there, so all that *must* be bogus. All the reports from BFRO researchers in Michigan *must* be bogus. And therefore all BF reports in Michigan *must* be bogus. Or so the theory would go. I don't quite subscribe to that point of view. My own assessment is that historically 80-90+% of all BFRO reports (at least outside of the PNW) are probably genuine. That's a seat of the pants estimate, but I have my own reasons for making the assessment, and I do not make it lightly, and I apologize that I cannot explain further at this time why I believe this to be the case. Call it an educated guess. More recent reports I have somewhat less confidence in, because of the apparent way in which new field investigators are recruited, and some cases that have gone through to the database that probably wouldn't have in the old days. But perhaps my concerns are unfounded.

> I have no idea what the deal is with Lisa Shiel. I found her website and didn't see reports,
> but maybe one has to sign up to see them. Lots of talk of aliens, etc, so can see why some
> of them would be left out.

I'm not aware of any of this. I'm not sure if her website (if she has one) is covered by Mangani or not. I have noticed that cases of "high strangeness" that I have come across have not been on his maps (but I don't know if that is his ommission or that of the online databases). If someone else has something to add, please do so. My own preference is that even people who we disagree with should be discussed in a respectful manner.

Once a researcher has personally encountered a case of high strangeness, and been left with the impression that the witness is both sane and truthful, it may change your perspective on how to handle these cases. My own preference is that, in terms of BF reports, they be placed in a seperate category but not completely ignored. They may be unrelated to BF, they may be related to something else, they may described a psychological phenomena. We don't know, but they do describe some sort of phenomena, and the witnesses do deserve respect, and it is pointless to simply collect a report and then throw it away because you don't like it -- that would make your investigative technique simply a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Regards,

P.F.

Stacy,

> I'll take that one since he's at work today.... BFD is not related officially to BFF, however nearly
> everyone there met here and participates on both boards. Contrary to popular opinion (and some
> peoples' efforts), there is no animosity between boards and most of the staff from both also
> contribute to both. BFD is just much smaller and much less P.C. (with mixed results LOL).

That's what I thought, but since it seemed so similar I wondered if the BFF had gotten split between an old location and a new one at some point (as I have seen happen elsewhere).

> Everyone is welcome, although we show much less tolerance for people who just want to be
> jerks.

Obviously, I won't fit in. Ask anyone!!

> It did used to be really nice green and yellow shades, but a couple of upgrades ago something
> went whacky and the only color scheme that allowed everything to work right was the original
> Invision blue. Dang it

I think the same thing happened to my shirts.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

Regards,

P.F.

I don't believe that for a second!

Prehistoric Fisherman
What type Of "high strangeness " are you talking about these creatures? I would like to know about this.I ask because there are some things that i have encountered that i cannot explain. Nor will i even mention on these forum boards due to redicule.But there are some things That i have encountered and i keep encountering .I Can Privitely message you about it but you must keep it to your self.There are things that i know about these animals that i do not wish to share on the forums,But I would like to here about the strange events that take place in some of these encounters.Maybe I can even share info but that depends.

Saaz,

I put these together to show the "displacement" around cities. The case within Detroit (1994/02) has a 10 mile radius, and this indicates that Mangani was not able to locate it with precision, so where should be precisely located is unknown. You can check out its link ( http://www.bigfootencounters.com/sbs/detroit.htm ). Clearly, its possible the actual location was on the outskirts of, or ouside, the city.

The other city would seem even more problematic, which would naturally generate skepticism. Despite that, there is a basic pattern to the reports, which would be odd if they were purely imaginary. My conclusion is either there is some basis to the reports or there have been a series of coordinated systematic hoaxes over a thirty year period. My own guess would be that historical research would reinforce the former theory.

Regards,

P.F.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment


Stacy,

> I don't believe that for a second!

Actually, my first roomate in college looked at me one day after listening to The Police's "Demolition Man" and became very insistent that the song *really* was about me. Considering the kind of matter-of-fact person he was, that was actually even more fascinating.

Of course, they took a few liberties with the movie.

Julio,

> What type Of "high strangeness " are you talking about these creatures? I would like to know about this.

First, let me state that these types of cases are generally quite rare, as far as I can tell. They are a small minority of reports. In terms of cases, there are things that researchers hear about from people they trust, what they experience personally, and what witnesses tell them.

"High strangeness" means different things to different people. It can mean a humanoid creatures that is bipedal, but doesn't look at all like a typical Bigfoot. Dogmen, lizardmen, goatmen -- you name it -- someone has seen it somewhere. Sometimes these might be misinterpretations of BF, they might be subspecies or deformed BF, they might be misidentifications of ordinary creatures, they might be imaginary... or they might be exactly what the witness saw. You just don't know. For some people, it might simply be enough to be considered too strange to have reports of a BF acting in a certain way, or being in an unexpected place. So it depends on who you talk to, in part.

In other cases strange phenomena are observed near BF. They might be floating lights (which may simply just be eyeshine from concealed BF?), they might be flashes of light (someone with a camera in the area?), they might be physical reactions (complete paralysis or sudden psychotic behavior, either of which might have explanations in mental shock). BF occassionally *seem* to disappear from in front of people's eyes. Infrasound has been suggested as an explanation of that (the creature would emit a sound that disrupts the nervouse system temporarily, as a few known animals can do), but simple shock with accompanying blackout could be a more conventional explanation. At other times "psychic" BF are reported, from single sentences to long winded philosophical tracts. And occassionally UFOs are involved, either in the area where BF are, or with them actually exiting it.

In all these cases, researchers tend to fall into two camps. Normally, anything that is odd or completely unexpected is declared wrong, and therefore either a hoax, imaginary, or a hallucination, and therefore dismissed (possibly without even publication). Or, on the other hand, the researcher jumps to the conclusion that not only are the odd phenomena connected to BF, but they are an integral part of the BF riddle, and everyone else studying the problem is just dead wrong. My own assessment is that some things are coincidental, many things are misinterpretations (of *something*), some things are imaginary, and some things really are connected (somehow)... but that I don't often have the ability to tell what is really going on. So, if something is a bit off the end of the "weirdness" scale, I don't automatically assume its a false report, I just put it in a different -- but hopefully -- appropriate box. Hopefully someday we will better understand what is in that box. Thankfully, I and the people I work with haven't had many cases that fall into the high strangeness category, as when it happens -- and the witness is convincing -- one can get the sensation that you are starting to get out of your depth. At which point you will either learn to swim, tread water, or drown -- metaphorically speaking.

> I ask because there are some things that i have encountered that i cannot explain. Nor will i
> even mention on these forum boards due to redicule.But there are some things That i have
> encountered and i keep encountering .I Can Privitely message you about it but you must
> keep it to your self.There are things that i know about these animals that i do not wish to
> share on the forums

I would be willing to listen to what you have to say in a PM. With the understanding that I may not have any absolute answers for you, only the best suggestions and advice I can provide. I also can't promise satisfactory answers, as some things are impossible to resolve with certainty. Your information would be confidential as far as I am concerned.

> But I would like to here about the strange events that take place in some of these encounters.
> Maybe I can even share info but that depends.

The few people I have worked with who have had 'odd' (or somewhat odd) things happen to them are also very concerned about their confidentiality, so what I may be able to provide personally would be limited. But I can give hypothetical and general advice and point out other publicly available information, assuming that we think that would be useful. Its also possible we might decide there is a simpler explanation, but I am by no means a Skeptic.

Regards,

P.F.

Saaz,

And they do love their dougnuts.

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=3185

PF,
what currently living animals can emit infrasound ? that has the frequency and sounds pressure levels that could effect a human ?
watermonkey

LOL! Sorry, no time to reply for now, but thought this was funny. Also enjoyed the
BFRO report of the BF with 'disconcerting grace' Love it! (I'm not being sarcastic, just enjoy reading and thinking about things)

Prehistoric Fisherman
I am real glad that you have mention infrasound.It has been just this summer that i was struck with infrasound by one of these creatures in an area Of research.I was doing some scouting On my own deep in this swampy area where i had to reach it in my Kayak .During the winter I had found all these deer beds so i figured that during the sunner i would scout that area before deer season started and try to find me a good tree to hang my stand.Well I found this heavly used deer trail where pines had met heavy woods.A perfect lay up for an ambush.it was a funnel right into this bedding area.So during the summer I took my kayak and rowed out to that area and started searching for my tree to hang my stand.Well as I hiked to this area which was between two hills I heard this low growl.I did not pay that much attention to it,infact I ignored it completely because it was windy and figured it was the trees.But i kept hearing this growl coming from my left and it was a low growl.I started to heed it's warning and left the area but some how I got disorientated.I had my Map and a compass and i knew this area well since i turkey hunt this area as well.But some how i ended up a half a mile off course from where i started and I am not even sure How that happen.

For that whole week i was sick to my stomach and i felt like i had the flu except without the fever.I just layed in bed,I did not eat and i just felt rotten.I had explained my symtoms and was told that i was exposed to infra sound.I did some research on the net and found out that yes I was .See in the spring time when i was turkey hunting I had also had encounter the creatures in this same area.I knew it was them because I just know from expierance but i have never been hit with infrasound.

As weeks went by I went back to that spot to try to figure out why they would try to hurt me and then it all came to me.I was in the wrong spot at the wrong time.See when i was there scouting it was around 4:00pm the spot where the creature was that hit me with the infra sound was on top of a hill in a trench waiting to ambush a deer.Now me and this other researcher had found the spot because we could feel the indentations of its elbo and its knees where it was waiting also we tested it out by me getting in this spot and the other researcher going in the spot where i was to see if I could be seen .As it turns out it was the spot.

There is more i can tell you about them and i am learning more each time i go out into those woods.But I am having a hard time understanding why they do some of the things they do,because some of these things just does not make no sense to me.Those are the rock stacking,the tree bending and weaving .There has to be some type of logic to why they do these things. I mean they go out of the way to do some of these things.It is like a game to them.Small hints bring big surprises

julio12, I also have some experience with "high strangeness" involving a close encounter with a possible sasquatch. I say "possible" because I could not bring myself to leave the tent while the encounter was occuring so I did not actually witness what was out there. The high strangeness was witnessed by a second party who found it odd and disturbing and is completely convinced it was a sasquatch outside the tent. Of course such discussion is not appreciated on this forum so I will PM you with the details soon.

Jeezum- that's a creepy story. When I read things like this, I think, "This thing MUST be real- not everybody can be making this stuff up!" Then of course, reason reasserts itself and I remember that we have no body, no good photos and that in fact, people might be mistaken, or indeed, making it up...

Glenn,

> what currently living animals can emit infrasound ? that has the frequency and sounds pressure
> levels that could effect a human ?

The first part of the question is answered here (search repeatedly for infrasound until you find the *interview*).

http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/newsletter/10_07.php

The second answer is probably tigers, lions, and possibly rhinos and hippos. Physical design and lung capacity are going to be the indicators of how much and at what distance an effect occurs.

Basically, tigers can emit a roar that, supposedly, can temporarily blind or paralyze prey (at close range, I would guess). I tried Googling the subject today and wasn't able to find much, so I would guess since the news stories are months old they have gotten pushed farther back in relevancy in the search engine. I researched this awhile back and probably could find more if given some time (the files are elsewhere, but I am short on time this week), but it really should be its own thread. The only issue is that I wasn't able to find a lot of information. So I'm not sure if I should be the one to start it. Other people are welcome to take a crack at it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=a...mp;aq=f&oq=

What has this to do with BF? There's been at least one report of a deer exiting the woods, with a BF following and then roaring at it, at which point the deer stops (completely) and then the BF grabs the deer (end of story... for the deer). See Bindernagel's book. I had mentioned reports of people seeing them seem to "disappear". First, as far as I know this is very, very, very rare. This is generally in the dark, often in areas with foliage, so there may be a more ordinary explanation, but the witnesses don't seem to think so. Other people have used it as an explanation as to why they sometimes can be seen out of the corner of an eye but not when directly looked at in the dark. That probably has more to do with how the eye is designed than with infrasound, but you never know. People sometimes have a sense of being watched or an errie feeling before they have an encounter, and infrasound or pheremones have been suggested for that. Occassionally people can act very strangely in their presence, everything from being unusually fearful to even suddenly becoming temporarily psychotic (or at least seemingly so). This could be simply a severe fear reaction, or a side effect from being extraordinarily sensative to infrasound. And occassionally people have trouble moving, a paralysis, or extreme muscle weakness, even if they actually haven't seen anything to be frightened of. Again, infrasound has been suggested as a possible explanation. To an ordinary zoologist this probably sounds like a bunch of nonsense. But science is slowly catching on that animals are using audio frequencies beyond our ability to hear in ways that we didn't expect them to. So its possible.
Stan Courtney has an article on the subject.

http://www.stancourtney.com/2008/09/old-ha...vs-unknown.html

But, with the exception of the deer or similar incidents, the BF isn't described as roaring when producing these effects (other than the effect of making people run for their lives). So if infrasound is involved, no noticible audible sound is being produced as a byproduct. A good default explanation is that its often hard to tell exactly what is going on in the dark around you, and under those circumstances how you react to something very frightening may be very different than you normally would. If that explanation doesn't seem to cover everything that happened, then infrasound is certainly something to look into. Unfortunately, figuring out exactly what the proper equipment to use has been rather difficult, as the suggestions fall into two camps: Use a digital audio recorder, or build an exotic (or at least certainly not off-the-shelf) vibration detector. The first doesn't sound like it would likely be sensitive enough to me, the second option has problems of practical use in the field.

> watermonkey

Is that some sort of accusation, or are you just trying a new handle?

P.F.

> LOL! Sorry, no time to reply for now, but thought this was funny. Also enjoyed
> the BFRO report of the BF with 'disconcerting grace' Love it!

We should expect "Dancin' with Sasquatch" beef jerky commercials soon.

And I do appreciate the earlier compliements, and apologize if I seemed obstinate in not accepting them, I just want credit to go where it is due.

Julio,

> am real glad that you have mention infrasound.It has been just this summer that i was struck
> with infrasound by one of these creatures in an area Of research.
[...]
> I started to heed it's warning and left the area but some how I got disorientated.I had my Map
> and a compass and i knew this area well since i turkey hunt this area as well.But some how i
> ended up a half a mile off course from where i started and I am not even sure How that happen.

The disorientation in a familiar area is hard to explain. Could shock and fear do it? I supposed, but you would be best able to gauge if that was what actually happened. Far more severe reactions have been reported by witnesses.

> For that whole week i was sick to my stomach and i felt like i had the flu except without the fever.
> I just layed in bed,I did not eat and i just felt rotten.I had explained my symtoms and was told
> that i was exposed to infra sound.I did some research on the net and found out that yes I was .

That it would last so long is beyond my area of expertise. I guess one would have to do more research on the long-term effects of infrasound. I'm getting ready for a minor trip, so I am extremely short on time now and will be leaving in a few days. I would suggest, for the time being, using search engines to try to find more information. If that fails, find a good research library and used their computeriezed journal searches to look for more information on infrasound. What is certain is we don't really know enough about it to be *absolutely* certain if that is what is actually going on. But where there is smoke there is often fire.

> As weeks went by I went back to that spot to try to figure out why they would try to hurt me and
> then it all came to me.I was in the wrong spot at the wrong time.See when i was there scouting it
> was around 4:00pm the spot where the creature was that hit me with the infra sound was on top
> of a hill in a trench waiting to ambush a deer.Now me and this other researcher had found the
> spot because we could feel the indentations of its elbo and its knees where it was waiting also we
> tested it out by me getting in this spot and the other researcher going in the spot where i was to
> see if I could be seen .As it turns out it was the spot.

Interesting conclusion. My own observation is that 4pm is probably the equivalent to 5am BF time, and *I* am *always* in a bad mood if I have to wake up then. Frankly, at that time of day I'm wondering if the spot wasn't being used to observe you rather than to hunt deer, but you know the location better than me. Hostile reactions have taken place when people are looking for *them*. When people are doing ordinary activities, they are watched and usually ignored. If people are *looking* for BF, the behavior can be very different. Not always, but sometimes -- and to make it plain most of time in the literature the opposite is described (BF disappears when researchers appear). But that may be the case here. If you are going to the area repeatedly, and not carrying out typical human activities, possibly that has been noted and you have been marked for 'special handling'. That would complicated evidence gathering, and could increase the potential possibility of a hostile interaction. It may also indicate that there is some reason that they would prefer not to leave the area, or they are just being territorial about it, because if they don't want you snooping around looking for them they can just displace 5-10 miles and it would be about impossible for you to find them. The thing to consider is that you are going into their home uninvited. In general any of us would probably have reacted more. It might be possible to get on better terms with them, but even trying that could be problematic or dangerous.

> There is more i can tell you about them and i am learning more each time i go out into those
> woods.But I am having a hard time understanding why they do some of the things they do,
> because some of these things just does not make no sense to me.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

> Those are the rock stacking,the tree bending and weaving .There has to be some type of logic
> to why they do these things. I mean they go out of the way to do some of these things.It is
> like a game to them.Small hints bring big surprises

This is interesting behavior, and some of it has been described before, though I am only aware of it in a limited way. I would be interested in discussing it more when I'm back in a week or so (I'm taking a little trip). For the time being I guess I would say that if it is legitimate activity (and not some misidentification of natural or human activity), then they have good reason for doing it. They don't seem to waste much time or energy, as far as I can tell. Marking territory and communication are possible explanations for what you have described.

Regards,

P.F.


Lily,

> Jeezum- that's a creepy story. When I read things like this, I think, "This thing MUST be real-
> not everybody can be making this stuff up!" Then of course, reason reasserts itself and I
> remember that we have no body, no good photos and that in fact, people might be mistaken,
> or indeed, making it up...

You have to understand, this particular BF had a very tough choice: to continue to hide its entire species from the harsh light of scientific scrutiny, or make a doughnut run.

... I guess it wasn't much of a choice.

P.F.

P.S. - Keep the *good* discussion going while I'm gone guys.

I was walking home from school the other day down a busy street and than i see big foot driving a hummer. HE IS BECOMING CIVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's amazing JC, next time stop him and ask him why we can't find him out in the woods. Or should we change our search to the busy streets of Howell?

To address the 'infrasound' question.
PF wrote, in part to answer my question ...
"The second answer is probably tigers, lions, and possibly rhinos and hippos. Physical design and lung capacity are going to be the indicators of how much and at what distance an effect occurs". and further wrote ...
"Basically, tigers can emit a roar that, supposedly, can temporarily blind or paralyze prey (at close range, I would guess)".
Thats where i have a problem, until we can prove with proper sound recording equipment that can analyze the sounds of animals we cant guess as to what animals can make sounds low enough to be called infrasound. i am very skeptical that any animal can, except maybe blue whales, but a BF and use it to neutralize a human.. nope i dont think so. read here ( http://www.lowertheboom.org/trice/infrasound.htm ) and take a look at the frequency and power needed to generate infrasound. why would a BF need this special adaptation ? or have the lung capacity ? or be able to focus the energy or have the physical structures to do so ?

Some specialized car audio equipment can generate sounds as low as 40 Hz, and i'm here to tell you, you can sure feel the effects, but you have to be standing close, say within 30 feet of the car. At this level, a person experiences irritation, and maybe some sick to the stomach feelings but its mild for the average person.
but can a BF do this or more... ??