The pan out of my neighbors Hog roaster, a 4' x 2' metal tray weighing approximately 45 - 50 lbs, and containing maybe another 15-20 lbs of pig scraps just turned up in my cornfield across the driveway.

Some of the contents have been dragged out, but that could have been done afterward by dogs. I've called Larry Battson and am waiting for a reply. I'm going back down now to cordon off the area and go buy some film.

more later

-Sarge

Excellent stuff, Sarge!

Could you tell if the pan was dragged off or was it carried?

Any footprints along the path between the roaster and where the pan was found?

Could you please also take a photo of the roaster and describe what is entailed in removing the pan?

Are any of your neighbors big practical jokers?

Thanks Sarge!!!! Be careful poking around Sas' lunch...

Also, a nice pork sammich made from any remaining scraps... sent over this way... wouldn't hurt anything... I haven't had lunch yet...

It was only moved about 20', but it looks like it was carried- no drag marks in the gravel, or flattened plants. The hog roaster is near a gap in the fence, and their daughter says the tray was on their picinic table yesterday. It was carried across the drive, to just inside the brush in my cornfield, and set down.
There are some broken cornstalks near it, but they're about 8" - 10" away from it.

No tracks that I've been able to find, but this half dead autumn vegetation is throwing me- I can't tell what's been freshly mashed down and what's been there for awhile. That's why I really want to get Larry or someone w/ better tracking skills than I've got out here. It does look like though, that what ever it was, left the area by stepping back several rows (of corn) then following the row to not make more damage.

I've taken 3 polaroids so far that show the general layout, including one with my Swiss Army knife for scale. I'll take more when we remove the tray. It's liftable by a person, but it would be awkward.

I don't think they're pulling a joke, they're pretty religeous and dour. and the way the pan was placed, you had to be on foot to really notice it.


Hehe, I'll be careful alright! As soon as it gets dark, I'm going back down there with a camera, light and pistol, and find a nice thick bush to plant myself in!


-Sarge

[EDIT] Jeeze, my typing really goes to Hell when my adrenaline is up!

Bear in your area?
If not..look out, something might be up!

Good luck on your finding out about what took off the tray SgtFang.

I know you've said before Sarge, probably several times, but I forgot -- where are you again?

SF, I'm not familiar with your specific area of the country, what OTHER events in the area point to bf activity?

In other words:

Is this an isolated incident?
Is your area a 'hotbed' of bf activity?
When was the most recent sighting/report/track?
What makes YOU think this event may be bf related?
What specific evidence supports the bf theory?



Further questions:

Was the pan PLACED on the picnic table by the neighbors?
If so, WHY was the pan left on the picnic table?
Have ALL the owners of the pan denied taking the pan over to the cornfield?
How can you be certain they're not pulling a prank? (some religious people DO have a sense of humor)

Further personal ponderings:

Why would the pan be removed and not just the scraps?
If bf went to the trouble of removing the pan containing scraps, why weren't all the scraps eaten? (trying to understand the bf thought process)
Is it possible that the pan was placed there by the neighbors so small animals from the cornfield could easily reach it?

Here's hoping you can find something further that points to our furry forest ghost.

RayG

Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but this time, you put the trousers on the chimp.

I can actually answer that partially Ray. I remembered Sgt Fang had a backyard sighting that he told us about at a fourth of July party at his house. Here is the link to that post. So he has had activity before the lucky bum. This is cool keep us posted Sarge.

OK, update time.

just came in from sitting in the Great Pumpkin Pat- er... the bushes down front, and just have a cold fanny and a stuffed up set of sinuses. About 15 minutes before came back up, I heard what sounded like a loud snort or huff, and something metal being struck by something soft. I thought it might have been something kicking the tray, but when I got down there, it didn't look like anything had been disturbed. No more weeds or corn appeared to be down, the tray was in the same place, and my tape was still up.

Stacy and NW- I'm in central IN just outside of Monrovia. No bears this far south yet that I know of. The biggest carnivores we have around here are coyotes.

Ray- I suppose I "would" have to call it isolated. Nothing like this has happened around here, at least that I've heard about, since the mid, to late 80's. Back then, we had a rash of things that happend and were occasionally reported, but most of them never made the "real" news. If they did get any exposure at all, it was just some little blurb in the police reports of the paper, or at the end of the radio news. I don't think this area is a "hotbed" or ever was, but I definately think it may be in a migratory corridor to Morgan-Monroe State forest, and the Hoosier National Forest. If memory serves most of our incidents happened in the late Summer and early Fall.

As far as what makes me think it might be BF related, I'm no Tom Brown, but even I can tell whatever put that there carried it and had opposable thumbs, it's just too big and unweildy for any other animals around here. I was looking for any "freebie" clues like big greasy thumbprints, but no luck so far.

They had put it on their picinic table after the hogroast Sat night and the daughter remembered seeing it there Sunday afternoon or early evening. The father thinks it might have been one or two of their party guests trying to help out, but didn't have an answer when asked why they would have lugged it over there to another persons (my) property, then just left it.

To elaborate on why I don't think it was a prank (on their part) I've lived next door to them for 16 years, and something like that's just not in their nature- They both around my age, but they're really wrapped up in the small town, upright pillar of the community, Christian image. Their kids are all into some popular club or team at school, and a few years ago, it was more important for them to be seen arriving at church on time than it was to actually perform a real Christian act and help their fellow man (me) out of a snow drift. (grumble grumble)
Also, until today when I went all "Agent K" on them with the questions about barking dogs and unexplained noises, I'm pretty sure they had no idea I was into this stuff.

If it is a prank, it's extremely subtle- whoever put it there didn't make it too obvious, it's only readily noticable if you're walking up and down the drive instead of driving like I usually do. That and I'd think if it did somehow leak out that I was interested in BF, any self respecting hoaxer would have at least been considerate enough to leave me some tracks to find!

I think the pan would be removed as a matter of convenience- Occams Razor; the hog roaster is right near their house in the open, but, if you take it pan and all, just 20 -30 feet away, your out of their yard, across a brushy fencerow, past another row of brush across my driveway, and in the shadow of their house and motorhome. I've had raccoons do the very same thing- a couple of them actually teamed up about 8 years ago to drag off a BIG latched bucket of cat food to the back of the house where the night light didn't reach so they could pick the latches and munch in peace.

As for scraps being eaten, it looked like most of them were, but there were still a few gnaw-worthy bones left as of this afternoon.

Hopefully I can get ahold of Larry tomorrow and see what he thinks.

-Sarge

You know, that pan might have DNA from BF fingerprints on it. It sounds like an ideal item on which to find them--much better than wood. I suggest you handle it with gloves or towels from now on, and protect it from rain and sun and wind. Here's a link to an item I posted on the new technique for DNA extraction: http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?sho...t=0&#entry41391

Maybe you or BFRO could give those Canadian scientist-inventors a call? Tell them that if their technique was the first to obtain Bigfoot DNA, it would give them a ton of terrific publicity. In view of that prospect, they might agree to come and do a DNA exam of your roaster. Or to examine it if you mailed it to them, and to pay your postage.

Roger- Do you have any suggestions about how to collect it? This guy's going to want his pan back soon. I've got rubber gloves and plastic bags, but any other suggestions?

Yesterday, I was looking for any obviously chewed bones, but didn't see anything. don't BFs crack open bones for marrow too?

I mildly toyed with calling the local cops to see if they could come out and fingerprint the thing as well, but have been dragging my feet.

Thanks!

-Sarge

This new technique requires technology that only the inventors possess. It's possible that there is a large amount of DNA on the pan, since it seemingly was well-handled, which would enable older DNA collection and analysis techniques to be used. But those are more time-consuming and expensive, and unless you have an "in" with the local police, they're unlikely to help out for free. Especially since you have only circumstantial evidence that a BF handled the pan. There's no visible fingerprint, nor footprints in the vicinity, nor scent. (Have you tried bringing a dog to the site and seeing if he shows any unusual reactions?)

Maybe the cops would shine an ultraviolet light on the pan, to see if any large-size latent fingerprints revealed themselves. If they did, and found a print, then maybe they'd be willing to collect DNA using a swab--that would cost little--and store it in their fridge (that would cost little too). But the next step--analysis--would have to be paid for. Maybe NIDS or someone would kick in, once they realized the situation.

Below is contact info. for the inventors of the new DNA-extraction technique. I suggest that it would impress them more, and make them more likely to donate time and equipment, and pay postage, if the person to contact them (on your behalf) were an official from a well-established Bigfoot organization, like BFRO. Send a PM to DamnedDirtyApe (Rick Noll) to see if he’d be interested in running interference for you. Or at least in purchasing that pan!

Maria Viaznikova (the inventor, or spokesperson for the inventing team)

University of Ottawa Heart Institute
40 Ruskin Street
Ottawa, ON
K1Y 4W7

Telephone: + 1 613 761-5000
Facsimile: + 1 613 761-5323
webmaster@ottawaheart.ca

Don't know if this is any help or not, but I had come home one day and my back door was wide open. Knew it was closed and locked when I left. Immediately called the sherrifs dept. Told him I had prior problems with a neighbor, told the deputy I wanted the door knob fingerprinted but due to no evidence that the door was jimmied and nothing was missing from inside they refused to fingerprint but he said I could do it myself. (Like that would do me any good) he said I could brush the door knob lightly with talcum powder, if anything came up, I could lift the prints with regular clear tape.

To maximize the convincingness of any DNA Sarge obtains, it would be better if it were processed and stored by public officials or other officially recognized personnel, rather than a believer. Moreover, if it is transferred to another lab for analysis, it would be good to get the cops to document the transfer (out of their fridge), so that a "chain of custody" can be documented.

It's silly to imagine that we believers could have cooked up some DNA on our own, but anal types in the skeptic & community will be unhappy and pick nits if we can't say alles in ordnung!.

Nasty bureaucrats you encountered, Painthorse. By-the-book, don't extend themselves to be helpful types. Common, alas.

Sgt is it possible a vagrant or homeless person may have smelt and lifted the "hogroast" pan and carried it to the adjoining property to feast on the left overs?

Just curious.

Bleah! That stuff had set out all day Sunday before this happened, somebody'd have to be pretty desperate...

We live several miles from the nearest town, but most of the drifters I've ever seen around here tend to stay up near the highway where they can hitchhike or show their "Will work for food" signs easier.

Buying that pan may be a good option- that or I could probably replace it for not much more than the cost of materials if I had the school metal shop make one. I'll definately ask him about that tomorrow.

-Sarge

If you can't get the cops to cooperate and look at the print under UV light, or would rather not approach them, I'll send you my UV light, a relic from the 60s. Just PM me your address. Maybe it would be enough to just turn on the light and see if anything strange pops up.

But perhaps it would be helpful for you to know how to look for prints with such a light. Probably there are books in the library where one could find this. Or I could go to Amazon, which now allows keyword searching thru the content of about 10% (?) of its books, to see if I can find a page with details of the procedure. Or someone here who knows how could post the details.

Thanks Roger, I may have to take you up on that. I 'had" a handheld UV light just for this purpose, but my 10year old can't seem to stay out of my field bag, and I don't know where it is right now.

For better or worse, I'm going to pull out all the stops on this tomorrow, and call my buddies on the local police forces, and also see if I can secure the pan, either as a permanent trade for another one, or at least as a long term loan. I threw a plastic cover over it earlier tonight- it's supposed to rain tomorrow, and I really want to preserve anything that might be there. We need to do something pretty fast or that meat is going to get bad. I'll probably go down tomorrow and bag up as much of the scraps as I can and freeze them.

If I can get the owner to go for it, I'll get that pan under cover ASAP, and get it covered in plastic till we can get someone out here that really knows what they're doing.

-Sarge

> more important for them to be seen arriving at church on time than it was to actually perform a real Christian act and help their fellow man (me) out of a snow drift. (grumble grumble)

Seems to be a lot of that going around. Kinda makes one wonder......


Nice work, Fang. What you describe is quite interesting, and as someone familiar with hog roasters, it's safe to believe that only a biped with thumbs could carry the pan. Many humans would have a hard time dealing with it.

So you have a biped, thumbs, and it's not likely to be Jewish. That narrows things a bit.

Hopefully you'll come across some supporting evidence. I have an old friend who grew up in your area and he told me that there was sasquatch activity around there in the 70's and 80's.

If it shows up and throws a folding chair at you, consider that it might be Bobby Knight. Happy hunting!

Try this Don't now

Get alot of super glue and stick the pan in a large glass tank and let the supper glue addhere to whatever may be on the pan. Dump the all the super glue in a bowl that you don't want. Heard glass works the best
and put a lid of some sorts over the the tank and wait a few hours and see what come up. EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOOSE! Just a lot of GLUE

Belle

Shortly after the glue trick, SgtFang was found beaten half to death with an axe handle, presumably by the owner of the pan. A dour neighbor is suspected in the assault.

I'd put my dough down on one, probably two, of the guests. Party down for awhile and folks start coniving jokes...especially fun to play on dour or religously zealous hosts. Or, maybe they had no common sense and wanting to get the pan/remains out of the way, put it where they did perhaps thinking they were helping?

As a footnote, I have to tell you folks responsible for this site how much I enjoy your set-up here! It's great to be able to find good information and observe logic. Good for you!

t.

(scratches head) Is this like the cyanoacrylate vapor technique, except on a huuuuuge scale?

Fingerprints and Superglue

-Sarge

Rfff! ok, not much progress, but I talked to my buddy in Mooresville PD today, and while he was pretty cool and interested, he didn't know much about fingerprinting himself and referred me to our other buddy in County who's an actual detective. I tried him a couple times earlier but just keep getting his answering machine, and since I'm gone or online so much, he hasn't had much chance to call back.

If I can't get through to him by tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to have to resort to "drugstore forensics" and try to do this myself. Lifting fingerprints doesn't seem too hard, in and of itself, but I'm worried about what powder to use- it will be against a black background, so I'm thinking talcum, baby powder, cornstarch etc.

Anyone know what has the finest granules?

Thanks!

-Sarge

The thing is, you don't just want a print, although a large size print would be another item for the scoftics to have to explain away. But, since they've described how latex casts of human footprints can be expanded with kerosene, presumably they'd say the same occurred in this case.

What would really be impressive would be DNA, which can be lifted from fingerprints using both conventional (5 year old) and new techniques. (See the link above to the story on this.) I think UV light can indicate where invisible prints exist, after which a swab can be rubbed over them to obtain a DNA sample. (I'm not sure if that's how it;s done with the new technique.) What I'm worried about is that "dusting" the prints might contaminate the sample. I wish there were knowledgeable people reading this who'd toss in their two cents.

Yeah, I PM'd DDA last night, but he hasn't had time to respond yet. I'd love to hear what he thinks.

To anyone else reading- what do you folks think? Is this worth pursuing, or am I playing Chicken Little?

-Sarge

This might sound off the wall, but if all else fails, it might be worth a try. What about a school/college, maybe that has forensic science courses. Maybe pull up any close colleges near you and see if they have an on-line list of courses. If you get a hit, call and ask if they would like a project. Like I said, it's a longshot but it might be worth a try if all else fails.

YUP

Can't be two huge! FBI Did it on a female body. Found her Killers prints and Palm of his hand on her thigh. They left her body where they found it, in her bedroom. First time in FBI history that they were able to use super glue on flesh.

Belle

Sorry I couldn't respond to this thread sooner but I've been going nuts at work. Anyway, just spoke with one of our forensic/crime scene guys and asked him what would be the best substance for someone, who doesn't have actual print powder, to use to lift prints. He said talc and baby powder should do the trick. Or if you need something black, try fine charcoal powder or copier toner.

Also remember it needs to be applied gently with a very soft bristle brush so as not to disturb the print. If you find some latents I would suggest using wide clear packing tape to lift them. Once identified, place the tape over them, photograph them, lift the tape and then fold the tape back over itself to protect the print.

I'll try to get more info if I can (times real tight right now). Any questions, just post and I'll respond as soon as I can.

Heh, "A little audacity goes a long way"

I got my second wind to give this thing a try today, after deciding I was probably going to win the lottery before I could link up with my buddy in the Sheriff's Dept. So I went back to Mooresville PD today and brazenly asked if I could borrow a cup of fingerprint powder
The receptionist said I'd have to talk to the captain because that was a cost controlled item, so I went over and waited till he could see me. In a few moments he came out, I told him what I needed, and he said he couldn't sell me any because they had to keep track of stuff like that for budget reasons, and selling some to a private citizen would look bad.
But he was happy to tell me what kind of stuff could be found locally and used, and then the conversation became fun-

He wanted to know what I was wanting to dust, and I told him about the pan, and the circumstances, and his brow furrowed slightly. He asked if I thought it was a homeless person, and I said no, and he started to explain at great lengths how the fingerprinting process worked and how, if the owner of any prints that might be found wasn't already on the books, for say being in the military, or being a known offender, then the prints would be worthless, and I said in my best Tommy Lee Jones/ Men In Black tone "I'm pretty sure he's not a known offender captain- he's not even a known species"

For a second, he looked lost, so I quickly told him what I thought it was, and then launched into telling him everything I could remember about Jimmy Chilcutt, his primate studies and BF track findings. Once I started talking about the forensics of BF investigation, he really tuned in to what I was saying, and wanted to know more details about where and how the pan was found, did I find any drag marks etc.

After a couple more minutes I was ready to leave, and thanked him and the dept for all their help the last couple days, and he said if I got anything good off the pan to bring it by.

Now to the actual findings.

Me and one of my friends (wearing latex gloves) moved the pan from the site, put it on the hood of my car and moved it into my garage, where I dusted almost every square inch of it except the middle area of the bottom, over the next 3-4 hours. I used ultra fine graphite which seemed to work pretty good, but the brushes I had were not as soft as I would have liked. I put packing tape on all sides and on about 6" of the bottoms of both ends. After all that, I got one partial, possible thumbprint from the right end of the tray.

I'll try to get it scanned the next time I go to the shop, but I'll say now, don't get too excited about it. It's smeared fairly bad, but you can make out what might have been dermals at one time, and ergonomically, it was found on the right part of the tray, where you'd expect to find a thumbprint.

All in all though, this was a fun time, and I don't feel like I wasted any time. While I'd say this is "Inconclusive" at best, I would have always wondered, if I hadn't at least tried.

-Sarge

(Goes off to Google to price REAL fingerprinting equipment...)

AWESOME! Fantastic go at it Sarge, if for no other reason than
it provided experience, and that is priceless.

Now is that thumbprint oriented like he grabbed the sides?
or lifted from the bottom?

Kudos...

this is the best read I have had in a long time.
if you don`t mind me asking could you describe the name of the ultra fine
graphite you used.
thanks
sorry for the intrusion....

I agree, 100%. Even if it's nothing, that's great work!

He's Baaaaaack. At least its a good question though.

nope not this time skunky. welcome to bff Demon.
pegleg

The avatar threw me off. Didnt even check the name. Sorry Demon. Welcome

That's one of the avatars that come with the board. Pure coincidence.

Well, what do you guys think? Should I send it off to Det. Chilcutt? It shouldn't cost more than a couple stamps and maybe he can see something in it I don't.

It was oriented like you'd expect if the pan was picked up from the sides, and the fingers and most of the hand were curled under the bottom edge.

The graphite I used was just labled "Ultra-Fine Graphite" from the local Ace Hardware. If the prints were fresher, It would have worked pretty good- I took some practice prints of myself from my car hood and those came out great.

I'm going over to the shop in a few, and I'll scan the "print" and the polaroids I took, and post those and the measurements of the pan when I get home.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone!

-Sarge

Send it! Can't hurt (although who knows how busy the man is).

As an aside I'd print off this thread and include it with the letter
of explanation of what you're sending.

send it !! either way you've lost nothing but a little bit of your time...

ya! send it!

are the prints bigger than what you'd expect a human print to be?

gael

First off, great work Sgt. Fang! I'm proud of you.

I would send it to Mr. Chilcutt but is there any way to make a copy somehow. I know, I know, hard question but...

thanks for the welcome
is this avatar better?

also thanks for the fingerprint info...

Ok, I think I'll send it out Monday, can anyone PM me contact info for Det. Chilcutt, or should I just send it c/o the Conroe PD?

Thanks!

-Sarge

Send it "Registered Mail". It's safer that way.

Ok, I got it sent off last Wednesday. Keep your fingers crossed and hopefully I'll hear something back this coming week.

-Sarge

Good luck there!

my name is raldeen i'm new to this group been reading alot of intresting things in this site .i came to this site because something is strange going on in this small town in ga .i live about 2-4 hours away from florida.i recently had to bury my 2 dogs all in the same month the problem is there might be a bigfoot or some animal that killed them .the first dog broke her chain got loose we heard her barking furiously i live right on the highway 133 n i don't want to say the town .but the barking did stop just heard silence .that morning i called for her she never came all i saw was the broken chain i went in and told my boyfriend that she got loose and ran away he went to look for her and he found her in the ditch he stated that it was the stangest thing he ever saw she was lying on her side and looked like she was thrown there all he saw was a nose bleed like something strangled her to her death we heard no car skidding down the road or even a bang .she was by a tree in the next property one of the tree branches is broken down it's a big old tree on an empty lot next to us theres a bunch of pine trees like a wooded area .then the next dog he broke loose within the week after her death and barked furiously looking towards the pine tree area he always barked there we thought nothing of it at all.we wwent looking for him my boyfriend found him and looked like something kicked him he had a big ball like thing growing by his thigh area we gave him antibiotic to help with infection his hip was hurt.what thing did that we don't know
he could not stand up or walk whatever did that must have been powerful.my boyfriend stated that before the dogs died he set all of our dogs loose and they kept barking at the corner of the barn they were litterally trying to tear the metal
sheet of the corner of the barn he had to literally pull them dogs away from that area and tie them up.i raise german shepherds from what i know these dogs can smell up to 15 feet under ground. i tld my boyfriend it's big foot. i showed him the trails that came from the pine trees to my barn outside.there were two trails the grass seemded smashed and folded in half.two seperate trails .when i set my dogs loose they always go towards the corner of that barn and towards those pine trees i'm actually frightened to death.i'v seen vultures on the side of the road with their heads totally completely taken off then only recently i saw a dead deer lying the same way my dog was in the ditch .one of the neighbors down the highway came to my house asking if i was selling the pups i had i stated yes she told me she wanted a pup because her sons dog died and they found there dog in the ditch down the road not too long ago around the time my dogs died died the same way.
what do you people make of this .and another thing after we buried our dogs me and my boyfriend was out in the yard one night when it was dark out to take the trash out and when we looked into the wooded pine tree area there were two eyes looking at us it seems as though it looked our way and the reflection of our porch light was in it's eyes.theres no house just wooded pine tree area it was high in the trees he stated something is staring at us .i am afraid to go look in that area to see if theres tracks not with all thses dead animals i'm finding around my area .right accross the street is a house and behind that house is bushes and a hill leading up to the train tracks .another thing i forgot to mention my landl;ord raises cows right behind my house is barn he found one of his cow dead and something took a big bite of the cows behind and left it there
what do you make of this??/

Raldeen, sorry to hear about your dogs, do you think you can get your boyfriend to go to that pine area and see if he can find any prints? Also in the ditches, if the ground is moist there may be some tracks. Do you keep any type of animal feed in the barn near where the dogs where trying to tear the metal sheeting? What type of other animals do you have?

Love that avatar!!!

Jon