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kanetaker5566
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/bigfoot.html

Didn't know if anyone saw this yet.
Incorrigible1
QUOTE(kanetaker5566 @ Sep 1 2008, 08:59 PM) *

As per my "Peeves" posting, can you give me a hint about one or two of them?
kanetaker5566
sorry, I was in a hurry to post it next time I will put it in the right section.
kanetaker5566
This Radford guys board game looks interesting.

http://radfordbooks.com/
peregrine
Here's the text of the article. Each of Radford's points was accompanied by a photo, but they are not really needed.

Personally, I wearied of Radford long ago. Some of his arguments are misleading or inaccurate.

QUOTE
1.) The Empty Fossil Record
When two Georgia men declared they were storing the body of Bigfoot in a freezer -- and that they had its DNA -- more than a few skeptics cried foul.

Is the legend of Bigfoot (a.k.a. Sasquatch) little more than a stubborn myth? For the dirt on the doubters, Discovery News contacted Benjamin Radford, managing editor of Skeptical Inquirer magazine, who was more than happy to rattle off the top 10 reasons Bigfoot is bogus.

First on his list: the fossil record. Why, he asked, would a legacy of large mammals reported to exist throughout North America (and beyond) simply disappear from the same soil that has preserved everything from the dinosaur bones pictured here, to wooly mammoths, to tiny marine crustaceans?

"There's no fossil record of anything fitting the description" of Bigfoot, said Radford. "There's simply nothing there."

2.) Forget Fossils, Where Are the Bodies?
Putting aside paleontology, Radford points out that today, if Bigfoot exists, it must disappear when it dies. "There's no hard evidence in the form of bones. There are no hair samples, there are no live or dead specimens," he said.

Bigfoot believers argue that the soil in areas where the creatures live -- such as the region surrounding Bellingham, Wash., seen here -- is acidic and quickly breaks down the bones. Nonsense, says Radford: "There's nothing to that, because Bigfoot has been reported in every state but Hawaii."

3.) Where Do Bigfoot Babies Come From?
Even for mammals that are relatively rare in global terms, such as the chimpanzee, it takes a decent population size to maintain a species. "If Bigfoot is a zoological reality," said Radford, "there has to be a breeding population."

For that population to be big enough to account for even a fraction of the sightings, there would need to be tens of thousands of the creatures in North America alone. "Think about that for a second. Tens of thousands of Bigfoot, living, breathing, doing what they do. Where are they? Why don't they get hit by a car?" asked Bradford. "The numbers just simply don't add up."

4.) Your Lying Eyes
The majority of "evidence" for Bigfoot, says Radford, consists of eyewitness accounts. Yet as psychologists and schooled juries know, such accounts are famously inaccurate.

What's more, says Radford, "the problem is, that's not evidence, it's an anecdote....It's interesting and you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it's not evidence."

5.) The Ever-Mysterious Blobsquatch
This black-and-white image was taken in 1977 by a man named Frank White, near Bellingham, Wash. "I'd call it a North American ape," White told reporters at the time. "You can call it a Sasquatch or anything you like."

Radford calls it a Blobsquatch. Aside from eyewitness reports, blurry images like this are what most Bigfoot believers rely on.

But it's no proof, said Radford: "These photos show something that is probably alive, it's probably dark, it's not a cat, it's not a camel. It could be a Bigfoot, or it could be a deer or it could be a guy in a suit."

"Ultimately," he concludes, "it's a two-dimensional image. It's pixels."

6.) Doctor Who?
For Radford and other skeptics, the only acceptable standard of proof is the scientific one. Why, when there are countless researchers probing the far corners of every continent, is there no rigorous, documented, peer-reviewed evidence for Bigfoot? Only one answer makes sense, says Radford: Bigfoot isn't real.

Attendees of the Texas Bigfoot Conference, pictured here, might disagree. The annual event draws hundreds of people -- including Bigfoot enthusiasts, amateur researchers, historians, and tourists -- but few if any academic scientists.

7.) The Case of the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker
Speaking of science, Bigfoot believers sometimes complain that funding for Sasquatch Studies is hard to find. But scientists are notoriously good note-takers, Radford points out, even about subjects they aren't directly studying.

Consider this league of biologists scouting for the elusive ivory-billed woodbecker in Arkansas' White River National Wildlife Refuge, an area where Bigfoot sightings have been made.

"There was a huge, hardcore investigation. They were well-equipped, well-funded and made a sustained search," noted Radford. "What I found interesting was, what didn't they find? They didn't find Bigfoot."

8.) This Katydid Couldn't Hide
Dozens of new species, previously unknown to science, are discovered each year. But for the most part, they are tiny: microorganisms and insects such as the newly discovered katydid pictured here. Could Bigfoot really hide in such a peopled world?

"The last large animal to be found was probably the giant panda, and that was 100 years ago," said Radford. "There has not been a single new creature that doesn't fit the recognized taxonomy discovered in the last century, there just simply hasn't."

9.) If It Walks Like a Hoax ...
This ruddy strand, about 70 micrometers in diameter, could be taken as a hair. But it isn't -- it's a carpet fiber.

A similar thread was once claimed to have fallen from Bigfoot's back. Later, it was shown to be synthetic Dynel fiber, said Radford. An alleged vial of Bigfoot blood once turned out to be transmission fluid, and many Bigfoot sightings, in the end, are admitted fakes.

"There is no category of Bigfoot evidence that doesn't have a string of hoaxes attached to it," said Radford. "If you're studying a subject in which virtually all the evidence either comes down to being inconclusive or a hoax, something's wrong."

10.) The Case of the Missing Footprint
This picture shows Al Hodgson, a volunteer guide at California's Willow Creek-China Flat Musuem, holding up a plaster cast believed by some to be a Bigfoot imprint.

Authentic or not, footprints and other physical artifacts are meaningless scientifically, says Radford, when there is no standard to measure them by.

"Some of the footprints have three toes, some have four toes, and some of course have five," he noted. "Even if I'm certain a certain track wasn't made by anything else, how do I know it's Bigfoot? You can't."

The same goes for DNA. Scientists make a positive identification by comparing an unknown sample to a known one. There is no such standard for Bigfoot, says Radford. Even an educated guess about the giant footprint pictured here or a Blobsquatch gone wild is, at best, a shot in the dark.

Benjamin Radford is the co-author of "Lake Monster Mysteries: Investigating the World's Most Elusive Creatures."

--Sarah Goforth
peregrine
Coleman has asked people to respond to the article's fallacious point number 8 where Radford claims, "The last large animal to be found was probably the giant panda, and that was 100 years ago."
Drew
QUOTE(peregrine @ Sep 2 2008, 11:16 AM) *
Coleman has asked people to respond to the article's fallacious point number 8 where Radford claims, "The last large animal to be found was probably the giant panda, and that was 100 years ago."


Don't forget that Radford included this statement.
QUOTE
There has not been a single new creature that doesn’t fit the recognized taxonomy


Which means he is singling out discoveries of creatures, which had no related, previously classified species.

Perhaps APEMAN, could clarify, but I think that Gorillas were discovered long before the Mountain Gorilla was discovered in the early 1900's, but I don't think that there were any previous discoveries of creatures similar to the Great Panda.

Just like if Bigfoot WERE to be discovered there may not be any related classified species that have been discovered.
peregrine
QUOTE(Drew @ Sep 2 2008, 11:50 AM) *
... he is singling out discoveries of creatures, which had no related, previously classified species.

Perhaps APEMAN, could clarify, but I think that Gorillas were discovered long before the Mountain Gorilla was discovered in the early 1900's, but I don't think that there were any previous discoveries of creatures similar to the Great Panda.

Just like if Bigfoot WERE to be discovered there may not be any related classified species that have been discovered.

I wouldn't presume to know what Radford meant if it was indeed something other than what he appeared to say. The giant panda certainly would NOT meet the interpretation you suggest, since bears were previously known.

By all appearances, the sasquatch would fit into the current taxonomic classification scheme.
Drew
QUOTE(peregrine @ Sep 2 2008, 02:12 PM) *
I wouldn't presume to know what Radford meant if it was indeed something other than what he appeared to say. The giant panda certainly would NOT meet the interpretation you suggest, since bears were previously known.



From Wiki
QUOTE
Ailuropoda is an ursid genus containing five species of giant pandas[1]. Only one species, the Giant Panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca) currently exists; the other four species are prehistoric chronospecies. Despite its taxonomic classification as a carnivore, the panda has a diet that is primarily herbivorous, which consists almost exclusively of bamboo.

Ursus is a genus in the family Ursidae (bears) that includes the widely distributed brown bears, the polar bear, and black bears. The name is derived from the Latin ursus, meaning bear.
XionComrade
Wow this guy is just terribly full of it...He is worse than most of the trolls in Bigfoot forums...

So this guy says their are no hair samples? Wtf? Haven't their been countless over the years, all tested, all coming back with the same repetitive conclusion? Like a humans, but not...like a apes also, but not.

Vocalizations and blood also has been found and recorded several times...

Didn't they JUST find 125,000+ gorillas in a remote area in Africa that scientist previously knew nothing of THIS YEAR? And didn't they JUST discover a new species of gorilla LAST YEAR? I forgot what they called them, but they had the head of a chimp, and the body of a gorilla.

This guy is just sadly ignorant IMO...
peregrine
Drew,

Taxonomy is a very subjective enterprise. The giant panda may be classified as a different genus than other extant bear species, but it is still a bear. I doubt Radford was suggesting that no new genera have been identified in the last 100 years, but again, his exact meaning is unclear to me.
Melissa
Mr. Radford holds up better in print.
RayG
QUOTE(XionComrade @ Sep 2 2008, 04:13 PM) *
So this guy says their are no hair samples?


I think he was saying that some of the supposed hairs have turned out not to be of squatch origin, not that there are no hair samples.

QUOTE
Haven't their been countless over the years, all tested, all coming back with the same repetitive conclusion? Like a humans, but not...like a apes also, but not.


Not quite. Dr. Fahrenbach has stated that the purported sasquatch hairs he has examined gave "ambiguous results", and were "indistinguishable from human hair by any criterion". At best those repetitive conclusions are called inconclusive.

QUOTE
Vocalizations and blood also has been found and recorded several times...


And until those vocalizations and blood are matched up to an actual squatch they'll remain inconclusive.

RayG
behemouth
Discovery should let someone like Meldrum or Bindernagle write a response.
Saskeptic
Radford is undereducated about #8. He's right that most new species of animals described since 1950 have been tiny, but there are several notable exceptions, including new species described in the last 20 years: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html.

Of course, fairly large herbivores from the understudied and only recently accessible jungles of Vietnam make a poor case for the probability of a very large species inhabiting land areas that have been trapped, logged, hunted, mined, etc. by white settlers for at least the past 200 years . . .
nightscream
These are the same things that we have heard before (The list)
elchupabigfoot
QUOTE(Saskeptic @ Sep 2 2008, 05:13 PM) *
Radford is undereducated about #8. He's right that most new species of animals described since 1950 have been tiny, but there are several notable exceptions, including new species described in the last 20 years: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html.

Of course, fairly large herbivores from the understudied and only recently accessible jungles of Vietnam make a poor case for the probability of a very large species inhabiting land areas that have been trapped, logged, hunted, mined, etc. by white settlers for at least the past 200 years . . .


yeah, but they only had a conflict there that involved at the very least 900,000 troops traipsing through the jungles and what not, and considering the size of Vietnam, its pretty amazing that large herbivore has gone either undetected or not catalogued until recently. I understand Vietnam has triple canopy rain forest as well, but for two discoveries such as that where a major conflict was fought for many years, it doesn't surprise me that we may have huge tracts of land that aren't traversed on a daily basis or with enough regularity to unveil the mysterious BF.

The "why hasn't any of the loggers, miners, hunters, trappers ever documented a BF?" thing is really not working for me, once again you look at the size of Vietnam in relation to our forests and sparsely inhabited areas and its pretty plain to me that BF could be a real creature. You can pretty much take loggers, miners off that list immediately for the simple fact that even in 200 years, neither groups of workers that I know of has taken any scientific equipment to document wildlife to their jobs. Plenty of loggers, miners have made claims to have seen the elusive big guy though. Both are extremely noisy operations with lots of heavy equipment, I think its safe to say that if there is a BF, they prolly aren't gonna stroll right into a logging operation or a mining area. Hunters and trappers, well, I'm pretty sure they as well have made BF sighting claims. Once again, for the most part they only bring the tools necessary for quarry they are currently hunting, and depending on the locale they are hunting and trapping....its a very small sample of the total land area at a given time and place. It really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say that BF is just good at avoiding them.

Whenever Columbus discovered this land, it wasn't immediately settled with millions of people, running through the forests in every corner of the US. It was a gradual thing, with that being said, If what I've learned about BF from this forum and other BF sites is even remotely true. Its also not a stretch to imagine that while the land was being populated these creatures observed us and being intelligent, learned from its observations. Which means, "boomsticks, bad...me avoid them". This may be total nonsense as I know little of trapping but I would think that most trappers set their bait, and traps for their specific quarry. In order to trap a BF they would have to bait, what? like a bear trap? I dunno, it would have to be fairly big, and they would have to eat the things that a trapper is baiting the trap with. I think in the US the spring loaded bear traps or maybe all the spring-loaded traps are illegal? I'm not sure on that, but I was pretty sure that the big spring loaded bear traps are not legal. Those were the only ones that I think would be capable of trapping a BF, but it would have to be purely by chance.

In a nutshell, until every 10 foot of land in the US has a human being standing on it at the same exact time, it really doesn't take much brain power to realize that yes, its entirely possible for a BF to exist in North America. If BF doesn't exist, then there certainly are alot of delusional people in the world.
shaman
whaaa?
columbus discovered america and ten minutes later ground was broken for a superwalmart and a subway sub shop.

gee whiz, who writes these histories?





jk icon_really_happy_guy.gif


does the new dolphins count?
Texas Bigfoot
I don't understand this. Isn't the Discovery Channel IN THE BUSINESS OF DISCOVERY? Why shoot down the theory? Maybe they should be the "Discovery unless we don't think it exists Channel". scratchhead.gif
elchupabigfoot
QUOTE(shaman @ Sep 3 2008, 12:38 AM) *
whaaa?
columbus discovered america and ten minutes later ground was broken for a superwalmart and a subway sub shop.

gee whiz, who writes these histories?
jk icon_really_happy_guy.gif
does the new dolphins count?

laugh1.gif
CuriousJ
Pretty ridiculous article, but I had never seen the Frank White blobsquatch before so that was kinda cool since it was (practically) taken in my own backyard.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(behemouth @ Sep 2 2008, 04:06 PM) *
Discovery should let someone like Meldrum or Bindernagle write a response.



That probably would do more harm than good. They might have an argument point on #8 but that point is relatively minor.
Drew
I'm sure, if pressed, Radford could concede point #8, and his overall point would still stand up well.
nightscream
QUOTE(shaman @ Sep 3 2008, 12:38 AM) *
whaaa?
columbus discovered america and ten minutes later ground was broken for a superwalmart and a subway sub shop.

gee whiz, who writes these histories?
jk icon_really_happy_guy.gif
does the new dolphins count?

You forgot the Starbucks and Verizon stores that went up next to the Lowes
damndirtyape
Frank White's film was in color and the year stated it was taken may be wrong as well. Now how are we supposed to believe anything else they are going to say on the subject. Skeptics need to get their facts straight before they criticize them. Very simple I would think. It wasn't a black and white picture. It was a color movie film. Rene Dahinden did tell me though that Frank confessed the film was actually of his own wife up near Mt. Baker, Washington. I wouldn't know because I was with Tony Healy and Bob Walls looking for the site at the time. We went down right after the UBC Manlike Monsters on Trial conference to find the site and photograph it.
Crow Logic
QUOTE(elchupabigfoot @ Sep 3 2008, 12:58 AM) *
In a nutshell, until every 10 foot of land in the US has a human being standing on it at the same exact time, it really doesn't take much brain power to realize that yes, its entirely possible for a BF to exist in North America. If BF doesn't exist, then there certainly are alot of delusional people in the world.


You bet there are lots of delusional people in this world.
rockinkt
Fortunately, delusional people have more sex than rational people. new_lmaosmiley.gif
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