This is a ethical question I find difficult to answer. As someone who is convinced of its exisitence, could I support the idea of hunting and killing a creature as a means to produce a specimen to science? This may be the only way to ever prove its exisitence. If Bigfoot does exisit, an expierenced big game hunter or specially trained military personnel would have the expertise to stalk and take one out, for the sake of science. It would not be easy of course and may take years. There are many pros and cons to this idea and I cannot take a side on it either way. I am sure there have been 'hunters' that have tried this many times and were unsuccessful. But with the right tactics, planning, and techniques, it could be done. But only if it is a real animal to begin with.

It would be worth much more alive, they will all be shot dead if their is even a hint that they are dangerous when their existence is finally proven, not that it hasn't already been to some. People do NOT like the idea that their is a wild primate that stands 8 feet tall stalking them every time they go into the woods or lay down to sleep. If the situation is not treated properly when we do get the opportunity to turn one it, it will be a disaster that may leave them all dead.

Well a Silverback Gorilla stands about 5 foot 9 and averages 400-450lbs, it has the reported strength of 27 grown healthy men. These sasquatch are primates as well but can stand as tall as 11 feet tall, and weigh in excess of 800lbs(If it isn't all bullshit that is ) I can't imagine how strong they could be if they are just supersized gorillas. The public is very curious about them though, and we fear what we don't know, so I would say blow its brains out for the good of its fellow undiscovered North American primates. Because we need to prove its existence and learn its nature as soon as we can. And as I said, trying to catch one alive is MUCH harder but MUCH more rewarding.

That's my take.

I already have a thread on this topic here.

Good luck with either option.

BF sounds like good eats to me...I'd put one in my freezer any day.

just dig a deep deep hole and cover it with branches and leaf matter bait with apples sit and wait.may take more than one hole tho.

Yeah, 40+

I think killing Gorillas is murder, and IMHO this critter which seems even closer to our lineage would definitely fall into the same category.

Honestly I just can't comprehend the selfish joe sixpack "let's kill it!" mentality.

i find this statement very funny. not as much now as i did the first gazillion times i heard or read it or one like it.

when asked why im laughing i asked just how the hell do you think science works. they have collected either alive or dead representatives of every plant and animal in existence since the renaissance. its how you study and catalog animal life on the planet.

granted the aim might be a live specimen but how do you dissect a live specimen. at some point very early after discovery someone kills one to learn about it. it is the way of discovery.

so now do you still have issue with this? if so i suggest you move on to something else because a body is the only way my friend.

Kill or not to kill--this is a touchy subject for many people--My humble opinion is find a way to take one alive--simply much better on the public psyche and a great way to learn about behavior that a dead body will not provide. Better yet, fossil evidence has been found in Aisa on giganto--there has to be fossil evidence right here in North America recent enough to prove that BF exists or has existed until recent times.

I agree, but it has one problem, how are you gonna keep a 600+lbs sassy subdued while you study it? I don't think it's gonna just sit there while it gets probed and pricked. At some point it would need to be destroyed to study. jmo

And there you have it, the pinnacle of human selfishness, arrogance and stupidity. I mean this in a global sense wickie, not personally against you...although you're definitely manifesting this attitude at the moment.

"I'll destroy it so I can learn about it."

Hi

A little rewording and it won't sound so bad, " Destroyed " is a pretty powerful word,

At some point it would need to be subdued to study, Sounds much more BF friendly

Peace
Tim

I don't know Gambit...................... some would say your response is the height of human arrogance and stupidity.............

You certainly manifest this attitude at the moment.

Yeah, putting forth that taking the life of such a noble creature for selfish reasons is arrogant and stupid, is in fact arrogant and stupid on my part...that makes perfect sense!

I stand corrected and bow before your logic.

No, coming off as a smart a$$ know it all and calling another member arrogant and stupid.......... while trying to be clever, in my book just makes you arrogant and ...................

Besides, how do you know BF is noble? They maybe the dirtiest, nastiest, low down critters ever to walk the earth............ or they may not be out there at all.................. And I'd like to know how trying to find them so they can be protected as an endangered species is selfish?

Might be time to brush up on that 'seeing the other side of the argument' skill............... could come in handy!

Someone using such an obvious anthropomorphic description of an unknown creature in a hypothetical question comes pretty close to my definition of arrogant.

edit - Wmroy beat me to it.

Hi

We have a treat tonight both Wmroy and rockinkt2500 are pitching in to help the forum, Tonights word is " arrogant "


Peace
Tim

my .02 cents...the best way to protect them (if they exist) is to kill one.

Just imagine the potential expansion of the national parks systems and the laws created to protect it....

chinese panda bears ain't got noth'n on an american bigfoot

Indeed it is...so far I give them 3 mercy points out of a possible 10 for correct and appropriate usage of said word.




EDIT - Upon further review I must subtract 2 points for inappropriate and erroneous use of the world anthropomorphic.

That's your own kneejerk take on my post, and has nothing to do with what I was actually saying.

Whoa, bro, I'm NOT in favor of killing it, I'm just saying if it is captured alive that would be the end result. In past posts I stated I never wanted to see one killed.

Sorry for using " destroyed", abit strong yes, but in the end it's the same

I get ya, and believe me I wasn't trying to cut you down.
We as a species tend to run roughshod over our environment, as well as other species so long as our needs or whims are met.

That was simply all I was saying in my own blunt and abrasive way.

I know my posts are more on the silly side, but when it comes to life (any life) I'm quite serious.

Then you need to think a bit about how you're coming across............... your "not personally" line is a bunch of hooie....... no knee jerk required, just reading YOUR words.

besides, your rebuttal's have proven my point already. And you're confusing my post with Rock's........... and I'm not even giving you any style points.

You don't need to kill one to prove that it exists. DNA is sufficient plain and simple. The only qualifier I need for that statement is that it isn't a modern human or something unrelated to anything alive which is a huge stretch. Intact mitochondrial DNA in hair would be almost certainly be sufficient. Intact nuclear DNA would seal the deal. It is strange to me that the concept seems to meet such resistance. It would take longer for DNA evidence to get processed and analyzed, but it is highly unlikely that DNA that came from a bigfoot wouldn't be definitive proof of an unknown hominoid (all apes including human relatives) in the forest. At that point bigfoot probably becomes the easiest explanation depending on the why the sample was thought to be bigfoot in the first place.

You used the word "noble" to describe sasquatch which is well within the meaning of the word I used. Sooo...I guess I did not use the word innapropriately or erroneously.
Thirty eleven points deducted.


Dictionary.com
an·thro·po·mor·phic /ˌænθrəpəˈmɔrfɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-thruh-puh-mawr-fik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, esp. to a deity.
2. resembling or made to resemble a human form: an anthropomorphic carving.

how would you KNOW that the DNA is indeed bigfoot unless you had said creature in your possession, either dead or alive?

if you dont, you can only guess that is where it came from

Why isn't all this "inconclusive" dna being cross checked with each other to see if there are any similarities? You would think it would raise some eyebrows if something came up ( I know nothing about dna, so please excuse this if it is a dumb question)

I disagree with too many posts to start quoting them all, so I'll just blurt out some stuff.
We don't need a specimen to protect the population. They are doing just fine as is. Prove me wrong haha. We can't protect their habitat because it's to vast. Public awareness of Sas will diminish the population with poachers alone. I would like a specimen to be found just to prove to my friends that I'm not crazy but that would be selfish. And I've never bought the anthropomorphic argument because the obscure details of numerous sightings are too identical to be conjured.

That is why I added the qualifier, "depending on the why the sample was thought to be bigfoot in the first place." If you just find some hair in the forest, then I suppose someone might argue that it is some other hominoid other than a modern human. If it is with other evidence consistent with a bigfoot then it is proof as the term is used in common usage. Proof in the scientific sense allows for any other possible explanation and that isn't how I meant it.

Basically they ideally sequence a few hundred base pairs on a particular section of the mitochondrial DNA and you would get a sequence looking like: ATCGAGGCATT... only a few hundred letters long. Each letter is referred to as a base pair since DNA has two strands.

It isn't exactly an unknown once you have DNA. You can use the mitochondrial DNA and immediately determine where it lies on the evolutionary tree. The most probable result in my opinion would be something with a common ancestor with a modern human a few million years ago so I will use that assumption in an example. I will assume 9% difference for chimps and 4.5 percent difference for the sasquatch for the sake of argument. The sasquatch DNA in the example should also have about the same number of differences or 9% with a chimp when you compare the letters of the sasquatch sequence to the sequence of the chimps. About half of the letters of the sasquatch sequence that are different from a chimps should be the same as modern humans. About half would be different from both. That would be overwhelming evidence of a hominin (hominid in common usage) that is obviously not a modern human. It would be the sort of evidence that most reluctant scientists would eventually be forced to accept. Some in the bigfoot community are so sold on the "convergent ape" theory, they might prefer to think it was just some unrelated hominin. If that sort of evidence is found with a film or cast or credible witnesses, it would eventually convince all but the most reluctant scientists. That would be enough in my opinion to do the entire genome if intact nuclear DNA was present. I have recently read that they have machines that will be able to do that for about $100,000 and take a few months to do. I don't want to look it up right now so my numbers might not be quite right.

That would be overwhelming proof of a nonhuman hominin which is as hard if not harder to accept than bigfoot. If it is found with a film or credible sighting, it would constitute proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It would take a while but that sort of evidence would steamroll as the arguments against it would fall apart. That is assuming it is a real animal and not something totally unexpected like a convergently evolved monkey or something else.

The foot that made all these footprints is extremely humanlike. No other creature we know has a foot so much like ours. That argues right there that if these critters exist they are a species of Homo, or human. They may not be as culturally advanced, perhaps never needed to be, but they are awfully close in many ways. Killing one would be murder. But we should all be out there trying to find a body, or at least trying to capture one live (for release later).

I think the DNA that has been found has been so similar to human it has been mistaken for human. Even chimp DNA is extremely similar to human. We need a karyotype, (count chromosomes) and that must come from fresh tissue with cells in various stages of growth and division. Even then you could get a typically human karyotype from a sasquatch tissue sample. Really, what would be the genetic difference if it is a form of Homo ergaster or Homo erectus?

There are a few other reason to think it may be something that split from our lineage early in the genus homo. One is the nose is reported to protrude more than in a chimp or apparently australopithicines. Another is that the first bipedal hominids left Africa about 2 million years ago according to recent evidence. There is evidence that there were multiple species of early homo. It is an ideal time to radiate into new species as they spread out of Africa. We have habilis living with erectus 1.5 million years ago in Africa. Some of the Asian erectus may have split before commonly believed. If it split 2 million years ago from an early erectus or ergaster, you would expect something like 3% to 4% differences in the mitochondrial DNA from a modern human. If they only did a couple of hundred base pairs, they might get something too close to human to be sure. They could always sequence a much longer section to make sure though. The sequence of the mitochondria should be much more accurate and diagnostic than a karyotype. I even added that bit about the sequencing the entire genome because it just blows me away that they can do that now. There would be a wealth of data in something like that.

you have got to spend an ungodly ammount of money on blood stopper huge band aids and other medical supplies. if you didn't you would have bleed out from that heart of yours.

humans are masters of this world. we are stewards of our resources, granted we do a piss poor job of it sometimes but the fact remains that we were lucky enough to evolve faster and further than any other animal. we screw up all the time in our decision making. we choose to destroy resources as much as we choose to hurt people trying to protect them.

as science progresses we will get to the point that capture or death will not be needed to study and learn. this said animals will still be used for many things that serve man like vaccines antivenin and tons of other medical needs. if we ever get to the point that such steps like capture and death and experimentation would not be needed i would rejoice.

i have to ask what medicines treatments or other technologies would you be willing to give up to "save" the animals and where would we be if we didn't study and utilize animals and other natural resources.

i know a sassy isnt used in this way but where do you draw the line. it isnt self awareness as many non humans have proven to be self aware to an extent, mainly higher primates. is it bipedalism, brain size, evolutionary progress....just where is that line.

is eating animals ok? if not why is eating plants any different. they act on instincts just like animals, admittedly more basic but they still do all the same. what use is acceptable.

C&C2....................

Judging from the difficulty in getting some famous 10 names on FBI list, I do not think USA soldiers would be very successful to get a BF. Perhaps Long Tabber would like to comment how he thinks this could be possible? I would love to know... I am sure it is possible.

One excellent member of this forum wrote an email to me saying that next winter some Canucks in BC plan to go in a copter and check the slopes of the mountains until they see a sas. Then they will fire soporific needles at him until he falls. Then, going down, they will take pictures of him real good, film the whole thing, take samples f blood and hair and everything, measure him and all... then, going back on the copter, they will film the beast when it wakes up, gets up and leave in a hurry. That would make a great 30 minutes show for which National geographic would pay 1 million, and Bushnell as well. That's it, no need to kill him, just get organized a wee bit. I saw a sighting report on Mt St-Helens where two guys in a copter observed a BF on the slope for 10 minutes. With a movie camera on them and a few needles, they could have got rich quickly and simplify everything... Hopefully the Canucks will be lucky.





And I thought you hated clowns!! As you said on a previous post!

Where as I'd love to hear LT take on getting Osama, (you can PM me ole pal) I'm wondering if this doesn't violate a forum rule somehow?


I wonder who's going to fund all the fuel used by those fellas in the copter looking for BF? My guess is they'll be flying around a LONG time..........

read my post again; improved version... and thanks, you may have been right

And yes, seeing a BF on a mountain slope in daytime is a rare coincidence, no doubt.

Let me hit this for you and Wm.

Under the assumption that this was a military operation ( which implies all the equipment and people to accomplish the mission)- if it was out there, we would probably find it.

We would:

select the search area and cordon it off with a variety of people/equipment/ground radar etc- you wouldnt get thru without being noticed

study terrain for likely routes, hiding locations etc

deploy teams equipped to detain ( or kill) at the locations

Have airborne deployments ready to respond to specific points with thermals and radar going

Then we would bring in the 11C ( mortars) and systematically bombard the grid in a linear progression with artillery simulators ( flash bangs that would wake the dead), flares ( to turn night into day) and RIOT AGENT ( tear gas from hell that stings skin with or without a mask)- is NON lethal, diipates in 20 or so minutes and is guaranteed to make any brething animal run for its life.

If BF is there- hes coming out ( along with every other breathing thing)

As to Osama- I was there but involved with NBC- not Haji hunting but knew about it.

There was never an attempt to find or capture him other than an initial cursory attempt. The reasons were simple once we got to digging into the Taliban. They are so decentralized with cell leadership that capturing Osama would be meaningless from any tactical perspective. He doesnt "own" or dictate to them. He is not their "leader" in the sense of a commanding general.

Also, if we did capture him, with the Taliban and Al Queida being so decentralized and secretive and him being such a religious figurehead- we would be promoting him to the status of "Martyr" ( which in Islam it is the highest honor to "die" fighting against satan) and that would ignite a sh!tstorm of terrorist attacks in his "honor" and "name"and possibly kill thousands globally. So, capturing him would actually ESCALATE terrorism rather than reduce it.

The gain from attempting to capture him wasnt viewed as worth the potential risks to civilians worldwide when all factors were considered.

Plus, where he is allegedly at is the same region I was in during the Russian war when we were assisting the Muhajadeen with stingers. The population is protecting him and the physical terrain is almost impervious to all our tracking methods ( the Russians fared no better) so any realistic search would have to be done on foot and that would take hundreds of thousands of troops.

Excellent ! That would do it of course, although a bit costly. And if the rules of engagement would be imposed... like to do it gently with a smile, in front of 120 international journalists? THen, walking 'fantassins' with soporific needles and a big metal wiring net, then a copter; right? Agreed for the other guy; it was just funny to see the big commander in chief (the number one) in his international speeches talking about getting him, while nobody gave the order and the soldiers were probably wondering: "But...but... what is he talking about?"

Political shmalictical. More like military anyway. Regardless- interesting post ltPE, good strategery stuff.

Excellent Post LT..............

>>>Agreed for the other guy; it was just funny to see the big commander in chief (the number one) in his international speeches talking about getting him, while nobody gave the order and the soldiers were probably wondering: "But...but... what is he talking about?"

Well, in the beginning- I was sent to Iraq ( not Afghanistan) but we heard about the missions thru our grapevine.

In that day and at that time ( when we first hit the ground)- the intent and part of the mission WAS to find and capture him. It was just a given and no attempt was made to keep it secret so back then it wasnt a "lie"- they meant to.

It wasnt until my area and all of our other branch counterparts was sifting thru volumes of intel and actually learning intricate details of the Taliban/Al Queida, Back then, it was believed that Osama WAS the "leader" in a military sense and taking him out might demoralize/destabilize them. After we learned he was just a PART of it and more figurehead rather than commander- that changed things.

Yah, analyses showed some new info later on. He initially trained alot of young gogetem poor kids who can't read, then he became like a mentor really. His role changed since the Russian presence in Afghanistan. He is bloody good as a mentor, and therefore represents a martyr. His kidneys will probably kill im soon anyway. But for the BF do you think that a few rangers or similarly well trained soldiers can walk in a forest in a rounding move, and then shoot tranqs at him and carry it under a copter later on? Sounds easy when good instruments and good people are handy.

You're remaining point is hereby deducted.

Where did this come from? We go from killing a Sas to bagging on the Military. Ok, I like LT's approach. No nonsense drive the nail with a hammer. But my operations order would be a little different. First, I would gather all the G2 possible (thats intel). That includes directing a mass satellite recon over some remote areas of BC. Once the targets have been identified (if they are above ground and are warm blooded, they will be), Four teams of 12 +2 will conduct a fast rope insertion by helicopter to each side of the target area and form a perimeter. An OH58 D (thats a specially equipped scout helicopter) will monitor the targets on thermal from the air and direct movements to the commander on the ground. Each team will deploy its 2 man scout/sniper team to pre-designated positions. With all avenues of egress blocked, a fifth team of 6 will insert within 100 meters of the target(s) and perform a movement to contact. The target will either be neutralized by the assault team, be driven into an ambush by the security teams on the perimeters, or eliminated by one of the four snipers teams. At that point, a UH 60 will be called in to drop a cargo net, the body will be secured by sling load and the helicopter will proceed under escort by AH64 Apaches directly to the Univ of Idaho. Forces on the ground will then move to the designated PZ to be estracted by helicopter. Or we can just deploy an MLRS (Multiple Launched Rocket System) and take out the whole grid square, then do a police call for the pieces.

Hopefully they recover DNA from the Homo Floresiensis bones. That could be interesting.

OUTSTANDING O Plan SFC! Well thought out, effective, prim and proper. A very LEGitimate operation to ARTEP std, LEGal, all the proper LEG-jistics in place. ( sorry, my bold button got stuck on leg- LOL)

I think my idea was sexier and would be more fun

DOL bro

Well, I have seen him on several occasions ( backstory time)

During the Iran/Iraq conflict- many of us were ( SF) advisors to Saddams army as "Iran" was the bad guy and anyone fighting them was our "friend" and I was NBC trained so I worked with that group. OBL was an engineer and was a Lt then. ( no the US never supplied him with WMD, despite the rumors- his WMD was originally Soviet- check the band markings on the casings- they are Soviet, not NATO)

He was anti US then but he needed us for training and guidance. Many of us felt back then that he would be a problem but never dreamed he would go as far as he did.

>>>But for the BF do you think that a few rangers or similarly well trained soldiers can walk in a forest in a rounding move, and then shoot tranqs at him and carry it under a copter later on? Sounds easy when good instruments and good people are handy.

I doubt it because a small unit cannot effectively "surround" anything. ( too many holes in the perimeter) Then you add the extremely limited range of a tranquilizer gun. ( almost line of sight)

Like above- the only way I see it possible would be for channel fire and force him to run thru the gauntlet

Why do we have to prove it exists? If you have had visual encounter you KNOW it exists. The only ones that need to have it proven are the people who have never seen one. I don't need a dead body for proof. As for the non-believers... go to the woods.