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willie red fire
July 4th, 2008 after the morning anvil blasting in Overgaard, AZ I started the solo trek to a new area that C&C was telling me about. Just 12 miles south to one of the highest point on the Mogollon Rim you can see for a hundred miles on a clear day. This was one of those days with the afternoon monsoons arriving just like a clock everyday. I started my hike marking the area near the drop off point and proceeded down a 4x4 road to the FAIR border which is a new fence constructed after the Rodeo/Chedeski fire caused by the NFS meeting the demands of the government to harvest a preset number of board feet regardless of whether the forest can support it or not. Reaching the barb wire fence I proceeded to walk the side where you can carry protection legally. The first couple miles was going easy except for the grades I knew were going to be in front of sooner then later so I crosed the fence and started down what I later identified as turkey creek. Always looking up around and stopping to look, listen and smell the surroundings becoming one with the outdoors. Taking out the plastic water bottle and refueling the system makes the slopes seem less of a job. About half way down before the first turn I heard branches or small trigs break just to my left at a distance of no more than 200 hundred feet. First reaction was to stop and look but instead I kept going as my ears perked up and what felt like my ears pointing towards the noise. Adeline shot through my body and I know my sweat glands let loose at the same time. It was over as fast as it happened I and I heard nothing else for the 20 minutes and almost forgot about it and then a rustling sound again behind me and to the left. It was louder and I stopped this time and removed my pack which was a mistake unless I plan on attacking whatever it was. I put my pack down pulled my 357 and turned the camera on. Nothing like this has happened since the war and flashes of memory went through my mind, what was I thinking, this is what I wanted. I hit the ground and watch and listened in the direction where the noise came from. As I remember it was a few minutes and I realized it could be a hour as whatever could outwit me so I took the aggressive and ran to another large juniper and got cover behind it. Nothing seen or heard so I went ahead and went for the area I first heard the rustling. I made a large circle and saw nothing so I headed back for my pack and put it on holstered my 357 and proceeded to take picture of the area. I did some thinking about what was I doing out here....alone and looking for trouble I ask myself? No answer....... Oh well, I plan on doing it again the second week in August only heading all the way down to the hatchery at canyon creek.

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chrisandclauida2
willie there should be a dump there somewhere. if you can find it i would add a circle of that to my recon list.

Buckhead Mesa Landfill:
North from Payson on Highway 87, across from Natural Bridge. One mile East to site. there is also an older landfill somewhere.

does this sound close to where your travels take you.? i think its 5 mil south of the strawberry/pine area.

QUOTE
Buckhead Mesa is a mountain summit in Gila County in the state of Arizona (AZ). Buckhead Mesa climbs to 5,377 feet (1,638.91 meters) above sea level. Buckhead Mesa is located at latitude - longitude coordinates (also called lat - long coordinates or GPS coordinates) of N 34.328087 and W -111.444862.

Anyone attempting to climb Buckhead Mesa and reach the summit should look for detailed information on the Buckhead Mesa area in the topographic map (topo map) and the Buckhead Mesa USGS quad. To hike and explore the Arizona outdoors near Buckhead Mesa, check the list of nearby trails.

Read Condition Reports | Add Condition Report
View Locator Map and Local Weather
Peak Type: Summit
Latitude: 34.328087
Longitue: -111.444862
Peak Elevation: 5,377 feet (1,638.91 m)
Nearest City: Strawberry (4.8 miles away)
chrisandclauida2
that landfill is about 12 to 15 miles as the bigfoot walks west if the rim south of overguard. there is an old one closer and a transfer station closer also.
Dread
What is this?

Teresa
A shadow with a red circle drawn around it.
Dread
I am sure it is, but it still looked interesting when I zoomed it in... I wish my monitor didn't pixilate (is that a word?) so bad when zoomed in... they I would be able to see for sure that it was a funky looking tree.
WmRoy
It's the leaves of the tree. You're seeing a shadow from the canopy of the upper leaves.
willie red fire
Attached is an Topo view of the Mogollon Rim area with notes. The berry patch will be visited again in the fall. I get conflicting information on Turkey Creek, seems there's a lot turkey's in the area!
C&C, I know where your at now, and I'll get a map printed up.

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That is a good shadow!

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Dread
NICE !! I couldn't get it to come out that clear...
WmRoy
It sure ain't no dang ole bigfoot........... wink.gif
wabgftr
I just wanted to tell u how lucky u are to be able to enjoy the beauty of nature. It's all I think about, getting back to the woods, getting out of this -desert. good luck to u all and get out their this summer. take care- jacob new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
eldonkey
Well said Jacob.... Well said!!!
Saskeptic
So Willie, please keep us posted on when and where you plan to be in the field. It's far scarier to me to know that guys like you with their .357s poised toward the slightest rustling in the leaves are out there in the woods than to imagine that those same woods might be populated with shy and retiring sasquatches.
wabgftr
yeah it is scary to think someone would have a wepon in the woods where there's animals that see humans as a meal. or u walk up on any animal and their young. if u dont carry a weapon in the woods then ur on borrowed time. sooner or later u'll wish u had one. take care- jacob new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
Saskeptic
It's not the carrying of the weapon that I found objectionable, it was the apparent willingness to use it based on nothing.
eldonkey
I disagree Saskeptic. Willie does not state that he pointed his weapon at anything, or in any direction. I have no problem with someone pulling a weapon out of its holster if they fear that a large animal or predator may be near by. If you had read the posting properly, you would have noticed that this was no small noise, but a sizeable disturbance in the brush that carried a good distance. I myself have done it when checking out caves, or in the event that I hear large disturbances in the brush, or even guttaral grunts from a nearby animal. If he started shooting wildly into the brush in the general direction of the noise, thats a different story, but that didn't happen here. So if all he did was pull his gun in preparation for a potential confrontation, what is your issue with this?
AZnative 24
QUOTE(eldonkey @ Aug 5 2008, 08:32 PM) *
I disagree Saskeptic. Willie does not state that he pointed his weapon at anything, or in any direction. I have no problem with someone pulling a weapon out of its holster if they fear that a large animal or predator may be near by. If you had read the posting properly, you would have noticed that this was no small noise, but a sizeable disturbance in the brush that carried a good distance. I myself have done it when checking out caves, or in the event that I hear large disturbances in the brush, or even guttaral grunts from a nearby animal. If he started shooting wildly into the brush in the general direction of the noise, thats a different story, but that didn't happen here. So if all he did was pull his gun in preparation for a potential confrontation, what is your issue with this?


I do the same thing. Mines only a .38, but I still have it with me. If I heard somewhat of a large disturbance I stop, draw, look and listen, but I don't readily point. It's merely pointed at the ground, but ready to be drawn up if need be. You want to identify what exactly is making the noise before you even consider pointing/aiming. I my opinion, Willie did absolutely the right thing. After all what's the point of having a weapon if you wait to long to use it. If you draw too late it could be game over for you. I'll admit there is such a thing as aiming too early (that is before you have identified the noise maker) but there is no such thing as drawing too early.

My two pennies.
Saskeptic
I read that Willie heard "branches or small twigs" break and then later a "rustling". In response, he apparently went into commando-mode and, although he doesn't mention discharging his weapon, certainly seems to have been ready to do so. So yes, he was absolutely prepared to use deadly force to defend himself against the ground squirrel that he most likely encountered that day.

Why does this concern me? 'Cause people like me are very often in remote locations, wearing earth tones, and sitting still while we collect data on real animals. We know to wear blaze orange during deer and turkey seasons, but nobody does in late spring/summer. If Willie got so spooked thinking bigfoot was stalking him based on a "rustling" sound, then I can easily envision him firing at any humanoid shape he encounters unexpectedly out in the field. There are a helluva lot more active field biologists out there than bigfoots.
InMichAgain
iagree.gif

If it takes so long for you to draw that you have to do it before any tangible threat is discerned, don't carry.

The extra second won't cost you your life, but it might save the life of another.
eldonkey
So, am I reading this right? You are a field biologist? A field biologist who is skeptical, but is somewhat interested in Bigfoot?

His account does not indicate what he was wearing at the time, not a fair assumption to make at this point. I also think it is unfair for you to assume he has lack of control or judgement when handling a firearm.

I think the point that he was trying to make is that he was out in the woods hiking, heard a significant disturbance, and was startled enough to pull his firearm. It is a relevant story in the context of this forum, being that it could have been a BF.

What I see here is a skeptic taking an un-necessary shot at someone with a genuine interest in BF....
InMichAgain
QUOTE(eldonkey @ Aug 6 2008, 04:06 PM) *
I think the point that he was trying to make is that he was out in the woods hiking, heard a significant disturbance, and was startled enough to pull his firearm.

I think that's the point Saskeptic was making as well. wink.gif


Saskeptic made no assumptions about what WRF was wearing; he only commented that he himself often wears neutral colored clothing when in the field.

As far as the report itself, I see nothing to indicate the presence of a BF or even a large predator.

What I read is that there were two separate instances, first of "twigs or small branches" breaking and then, 20 minutes later, of "rustling." What about that indicates that WRF was being stalked? Surely, anybody who has spent a modest amount of time in the forest hears such "significant disturbances" regularly.
Saskeptic
Here's the event:

"About half way down before the first turn I heard branches or small trigs break just to my left at a distance of no more than 200 hundred feet."

"It was over as fast as it happened I and I heard nothing else for the 20 minutes and almost forgot about it and then a rustling sound again behind me and to the left. It was louder . . . this time . . . "


Holy cow that is terrifying! If this happened to me I would totally assume I was about to be a bigfoot snack.

<Sarcasm over. Sorry about that.>



Here's the response:

"Adeline shot through my body and I know my sweat glands let loose at the same time."

"It was louder and I stopped this time and removed my pack which was a mistake unless I plan on attacking whatever it was. I put my pack down pulled my 357 and turned the camera on."

"Nothing like this has happened since the war and flashes of memory went through my mind, what was I thinking, this is what I wanted. I hit the ground and watch and listened in the direction where the noise came from."

"As I remember it was a few minutes and I realized it could be a hour as whatever could outwit me so I took the aggressive and ran to another large juniper and got cover behind it."

"Nothing seen or heard so I went ahead and went for the area I first heard the rustling. I made a large circle and saw nothing so I headed back for my pack and put it on holstered my 357 and proceeded to take picture of the area."



I don't want to be overly critical of Willie, and I assure you I am grateful for his service in whatever war he's referencing, but I read in this account a guy on alert in the woods who had his weapon drawn and ready based on nothing more than the sound of an animal moving in the woods from 200 feet away. That is not cool. There are hundreds of people in remote places every day in the summer* doing field work that involves them basically being cryptic and stationary for long periods of time. We biologists try to be stealthy in the field, but we're nowhere near "Navy Seal" stealthy. If I'm taking notes and shift position in the woods, someone could hear me "rustling" from a distance. If I then stand up, now I'm a dark-colored, bulky (I've got my backpack on), bipedal creature in the woods - and I might not even smell so great.

So my point is that if some ranger has to go to my house to tell Mrs. Saskeptic and the kids that I was picked off by a guy packin' heat in the woods who mistook me for a bigfoot, I'm gonna be really pissed.


*make that "thousands" if you count hikers and other recreationists who might look suspicious while off trail doing Lord-knows-what - especially on the 4th of July.
willie red fire
Many points have been made about the post including the fear most of us have about the inexperienced gun shooting hikers. MY biggest worries are running into or crossing a city dwellers path eager to shoot anything that moves. In my 100+ miles this year of off the trail hiking, this was the first time I experienced anything following behind and even hearing it sent adrenaline through me. Yes, I hear many noises while doing my search for the ambassadors of the southwest but never in the past year have I pulled heat. In arid Arizona you have to carry plenty of water if one doesn't know where to get it. I was carrying almost a gallon at the time, along with 5 lbs of apples and scent. IMO It took long enough for something to follow.
No worries Saskeptic, I have been trained for jungle combat in the Army back in 1971 and will identify my target before discharging any weapon. But you do make a solid point about people in the woods, I like that. In the hunting season I wear what's in the bottom of my pack, a Bright orange vest. Last thing I want is to be mounted over a fireplace.

WRF
eldonkey
Saskeptic,

My concern was that you were taking a cheap shot at WRF. If I offended or overpushed the envelope, I recant and apologize.... based on your last post you made it clear that you are not taking a cheap shot..
chrisandclauida2
its usually those with little or no experience who have issues about weapon presentation. if your alone in the woods and discern a threat you prepare to engage. that means ready weapon not holstered weapon.

what most who are very inexperienced dont realise is when you discern a threat you prepare to act. if your lucky enough to draw a weapon and present to "A" ready position you do so. the fact is way too often you dont get the luxury of going to the ready because things happen too fast.

just because a weapon is un holstered or uncased it isnt dangerous. weapons are inanimate objects no more dangerous or less dangerous than any multitude of tools that can kill. its how the tools are used that create the danger.

i mean even the untrained who watch an episode of cops realise if your in a threat situation you ready your weapon. the simple fact is most dont realise a threat is there cause their head is up their ars or the threat realisation and attack occurs simultaneously and instantly so they are moving drawing finding cover and reacting all at once.

a holstered weapon during a threat is just as useless as one you dont have. its only dangerous once the user makes it so. just like a car kitchen knife wrench bat club etc etc etc.

as willie said your weapon is usually forgotten about because the need to use never arises. i have carried a weapon daily for right at 20 years. minus the riots and work crew incidents which we shoot a lot of rounds but arent really indicative of normal activities i have pointed a weapon[lethal ammo] at someone 2 times. on duty i have unholstered lots cause thats how you clear rooms preform various searches etc and off duty i have never unholstered a weapon out of need to use it.

instead of focusing on the presentation i think your worried more about the covering of a target or actually point at someone while not in a law enforcement situation. you would be correct in thinking to do so is rare. you would be incorrect to classify unholstering a weapon or presenting it to "A" ready position as the same thing as pointing at a target. they are two very different acts and when not in a law enforcement situation the latter is very rare as it should be.
chrisandclauida2
another thing you [you being a general term not ment to point out any one person] need to realise is people are the most dangerous animals you will see in the woods. those who grow pot cook meth or are just bastard killers who stay away from others are the ones to worry about.

sticks breaking behind me like im being followed by someone or thing not friendly enough to announce them selves will cause my weapon to come out every time.

you dont think all those campers and hikers just get lost do you....if you do you really need to learn something about the real world.
Saskeptic
QUOTE(eldonkey @ Aug 6 2008, 10:07 PM) *
My concern was that you were taking a cheap shot at WRF. If I offended or overpushed the envelope, I recant and apologize.... based on your last post you made it clear that you are not taking a cheap shot..


No you're right, I did take a cheap shot, and that was childish of me. I'm sorry WRF if you found my posts about your experience insulting, and I really appreciate your last post.

The thing that bothered me about this story was not so much WRF's reaction, but the fact that reading his story made me wonder how many other folks - people without his solid military training - are out there in the woods, getting freaked out over what is most likely nothing, and fully capable of using deadly force in the heat of the moment. So the "problem" I'd like to "fix" is this general assumption that unexplained animal sounds in the woods are bigfoot in origin. If we are all more careful to do the logical thing - assume a mundane source to a mundane sound - then I'd feel a lot safer out there. I know that is at odds with combat training in which your life depends on not taking mundane sounds for granted, but when you hear a noise in the woods in Arizona on the 4th of July, then it's far more likely to be a benign source than anything else.
InMichAgain
C&C, your points are well taken and for the most part I agree with you. I am no stranger to firearms in general, but I have only fired a pistol very few times (and that was on private land with a .38 I found hidden in my grandfather's house after he died), so you are correct to pick up on the fact that I was unaware of the difference in ready position and covering a target. However, I did not assume that WRF had actually pointed his weapon at anything.

Where I got hung up, and where I think we differ, is in the perception of the threat. This wasn't a combat or LE situation. To me, "small twigs or sticks" breaking and "rustling" isn't an indication of something stalking me when I'm hiking through the forest. Yes, people who protect meth labs and pot farms are definitely dangerous, but (call me naive) that would not have been what popped into my mind hearing something like what was described.

So...

QUOTE(willie red fire @ Aug 6 2008, 06:51 PM) *
In my 100+ miles this year of off the trail hiking, this was the first time I experienced anything following behind and even hearing it sent adrenaline through me. Yes, I hear many noises while doing my search for the ambassadors of the southwest but never in the past year have I pulled heat.


That's a very fair statement, WRF, and I hope I've not offended you. I'm sure you are very experienced in the handling of firearms and I too appreciate the service you've referred to. I'm simply unclear as to what made you perceive the noise as threatening and wonder if you'd be kind enough to answer a couple questions.

What about the sounds you heard (ie. the position they came from, the volume) made your adrenaline start pumping enough that you felt the need to prepare for a possible confrontation?

Since you were unable to determine what actually caused the noises, could you speculate as to some possible causes?
chrisandclauida2
just to be completely fair to both sides of this discussion a kid just killed a hiker by shooting at a sound. we all know it does happen just like bad things happen all over....assuming is the bane to everything. assuming anything is dangerous.

in this story below it isnt the gun its the person shooting.

QUOTE
With the way hikers and hunters share the same backwoods and the same trails, it was only a matter of time before an accident like the one last weekend that killed a 54-year-old woman mistaken for a bear by a 14-year-old boy, Snohomish County sheriff's Deputy Greg Rasar said Tuesday.

Rasar has been the county's forest-protection officer for nearly 18 years and a law-enforcement officer for almost 30.

In that time, he's seen a lot of dangerous behavior and a lot of close calls. He's written tickets, issued citations and given scores of lectures.

"We have tried all different kinds of ideas to educate people," he said, "but none of them were idiot-proof or bulletproof ... it was just a matter of time until somebody was accidentally shot."

The state lacks "simple and plain" guidelines and regulations that apply to national forests and could make the trails and woods safer for all, he said.

Rasar said many state prohibitions on firearms don't apply to hunters and that stricter regulations and setbacks from campgrounds, trailheads and other populated areas could be useful.

"It would help if there were a tool that law enforcement could use on irresponsible shooters so that when we get complaints we could actually do something instead of saying, 'Sorry, what they're doing is perfectly legal,' " Rasar said.

He said that while the state does have a statute that makes it illegal to recklessly discharge a firearm alongside or across a public highway, it's hard to enforce.

"It's very, very hard for us to prove negligence or recklessness unless somebody sees someone shooting in the road."

Many hikers, he said, are unaware that hunting is legal on most of the state's public lands and do not pay attention to hunting-season dates.

Pamela Almli, an experienced hiker from Oso, Snohomish County, who was aware of hunting seasons, was killed Saturday on a marked hiking trail on Sauk Mountain, Skagit County. She was shot from about 120 yards by a 14-year-old who told police he thought she was a bear.

The boy and his 16-year-old brother had been dropped off at the mountain by their grandfather.

Prosecutors will review the case, but no charges have been filed. Investigators with the Skagit County Sheriff's Department have not released their incident report. They said it is legal in this state for a 14-year-old who has been licensed and has taken a hunter-education class to hunt without adult supervision.

On Tuesday, members of the online group Hunting Washington were upset over the accident, which they said gave true sportspeople and legitimate hunters a bad name.

"Those kids should have been supervised," said member Scott Green. "Even a sharp and safe kid should be supervised."

Green said the shooter broke a cardinal rule of hunting: He failed to positively identify his target with binoculars before firing.

"We do not condone or accept the actions taken by this person and feel that we, as a community, must take a stand against such blatant disregard for safety of those we share the woods with," wrote Green in an e-mail statement Tuesday.

The group would likely oppose additional hunting regulations, but has started a memorial fund to promote educational awareness and outreach programs in Almli's honor, Green said.

"There are already regulations on the books and there are so many hiking trails that there is no way you could do a setback from them," Green said.

Rasar said Forest Service personnel don't like to make judgments about what kind of recreational uses is acceptable. The land is there for people to enjoy and use and protect, he said. He said he's not sure there is a perfect solution.

"The fact is that a lot of people hike and a lot of people are out there shooting, too. Sooner or later, they cross paths and a tragedy can happen," he said. "This is one that's going to haunt people on both sides for a long time."


.
willie red fire
This topic brought out some very interesting comments and points. I try to remember when you post here it's like rolling over on your back and exposing your belly. I took no offense to anything and thank all who added to the Topic. Actually after C&C post it's an eye opener to the reality of becoming part of the food chain as soon as you step outside.
InMichAgain
I was fresh off of reading that thread when I posted here and I'm sure some of the feelings I have about that tragedy were transferred here. As someone who enjoys and appreciates the benefits of firearms, I tend to become very vocal when I suspect that someone has obeyed anything less than 100% of firearms safety rules, because when that happens it adds credibility to the gun-control nuts' arguments and I think that credibility is generally not merited.

You, by all appearances, were not irresponsible.

I really would appreciate some clarification of the perceived threat, however. You did not answer my last two questions, which is fine because I was hoping to get a chance to rephrase them anyway.

That question would be: were you alarmed simply because of the things you heard...or did you experience that "unexplainable and uncontrollable" fear that we seem to hear so much about in the BF world?

Thanks,

IMA
willie red fire
The area I have been searching for the last year is not visited much except maybe hunters in the Fall. The terrain is very rough and most hunters won't tackle such terrain because of the elevation and there are no roads to get to the kill. The reason I am down this way is to set out apples and scent where prints will be made. I said in previous post in the last hundred miles I have hiked in the general area I have heard sounds every now and then, not every time but this time was different as it happened twice and both time behind me. There is no one down there as there are no lakes, no trails, no hunting seasons and no reason for anyone to be where I'm at, thats why I was there. I was startled by the noise and know for a fact there are a few animals in this area that would like me for lunch because I am part of the food chain, I know because I have seen them. So, no I not who you think I am. I'm not afraid of the big bad wolf, well yes I'll protect myself from the big bad wolf because that's what I want a picture of. Do you know a pair of wolfs will attack and hit me with all fours to knock me down, then try to disable me? And in reality if I hear a noise and react it's probably to late. The funny thing is after I reacted I saw nothing and heard nothing the rest of the day. The pictures were of the area I was hiking that day not of the scene. My search is for the Ambassadors of the woods and it includes all animals big or small. I search for signs of the Native Grey wolf (not the Mexican Grey wolf) and now I include BF signs. So to answer your question if I haven't yet. No, I have no fear of meeting the NAA (north American ape) as I urge them to find me. I have never had anything follow me before and know it anyway. If thats what happened this time it's the first. That's why I started a topic about it. My fear was more toward being mauled by a bear or attacked by a Cougar or Wolf not by a nocturnal BF.

That was tragic, I found many articles about the incident. I pray he gets some help to get over it. I lost a friend who did something similar and could not handle it. I don't think I have the BF fever fully yet as I think it's like playing the lotto and I never did win anything playing the lotto.
C_Felix
Long time lurker, first time poster:

I see nothing wrong here.

He was spooked and did what he felt was necessary to protect himself.
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