I just heard a report from a local BFer where a pick up and trailer were traveling at night on a remote road and a BF ran, or walked into the trailer. BF was scraped by the trailer and ran off with some scrapes. Three people of the camping party were following in a car and saw the BF. The next day, a piece of skin with hair was found hanging off some sharp metal on the trailer! This happened west and a little south of 15 Roseburg, Oregon.


This is all I know, and I will try to contact the witnesses to see for myself.

Does skin need to be kept in everclear alcohol to preserve DNA? If the skin dried out, has the DNA degreaded lots?

If there are any people close by Bandon, Coos Bay, Roseburg, etc...........we could go to the area and investigate. PM me.

This sounds like an interesting development. Please keep us advised if you lean anything new.

When transporting and storing evidence that may contain DNA, it is important to keep the evidence dry and at room temperature. Once the evidence has been secured in a paper bag or envelope, it should be sealed, labeled, and transported in a way that ensures proper identification of where it was found and proper chain of custody. Never place evidence that may contain DNA in plastic bags because plastic bags will retain damaging moisture. Direct sunlight and warmer conditions also may be harmful to DNA, so avoid keeping evidence in places that may get hot, such as a room or vehicle without air conditioning.

Please keep us informed...

Dont use alcohol or any type solvent. Put it in as is and send immediately ( to avoid degradation due to rot) or preferably dry it ( air dry) with a hair dryer on low.

Use sterile equipment ( clean aint sterile) and avoid any cross contamination

Double paper bag it and it will dry just fine. Set it aside and cover the impact site.

What day did this occur?

hey everyone WOW this is definetly a very interesting new oregon sasquatch encounter with dna or skin samples do they have a photo of the sighting location sketch of creature seen to post in this great thread. definetly keep me posted ok.. good afternoon bill were there footprints or other sasquatch related evidence found at location

Georgerm, I have sent you a PM advising immediate assistance. HMB

Extremely interesting!!

Please keep us posted on this one.............

Incredible if true.

I've got a vacation home within an hour of there. Any idea how far south on I-5?

Today I gained some more information on this report that I came across. The information has good and bad parts. The bad part first. I just spoke with Betty, the daughter of the witness, and the incident did not just happen as I thought, but quite awhile back. Sorry to get us all excited. Darn, I was ready to go camp there. The good part is Betty has the skin with 6" of reddish, fine hair attached! I will get a picture of it, and the area of the incident. I asked, and she said it is dry and in a bag, and she will show it to me. We are about 45 minutes from each other. She said the skin piece is about 1.5 cm by 1.5cm with the hair attached. The skin is dry and about 30 years old.

This story came about when Betty told a local researcher and BF writer about this incident. I read the news article then called the writer. She sent me a map, then put me in touch with Betty.

Is the DNA still good? If so where and how much will it cost to have it analyzed? Who can check out the hair?

How big of piece is needed for the sample to be run? Betty wants to keep most of her sample.

Betty said her father and mother were driving their pickup and trailer at night when a two legged person in dark clothers ran across the road. They swerved and hit the man. Their son and two people were following, and they glimpsed the man before it was hit. They stopped and looked all over fearing they hit a person. The next day is when they found the skin and hair sample on a trailer bolt. They knew it was no man then. Her parents are now deceased. If you want, I will call her brother. I don't think this is a hoax, or she wouldn't offer to show me the skin sample.

Here is the email that I received from her today. I just got off the phone with her.

Hi George, My name is Betty xxx and I have in my possesion the hair and
skin sample you are asking about. It was my parents that had it origionaly.
You may call and speak to me at 541-xxxxxxxx if you wish. I am at home most
of the time as I work from my home. I would like to have the hair analized
but can not afford to do it on my own. If you think you can help with this
endever please let me know. Thank you Betty xxxxxxx

Georgerm, I have PM'ed a suggestion as to testing of the sample and further follow up. HMB

Who was it that was in research and doing gene sequencing? Didn't he offer to help with any potential DNA samples?

Dang it what was the user name.....................

BlueGenes?

Yeah I'd PM him. Sounds like it could be quite a find.

Sneakers,

Did you pm 'Bluegenes', or 'georgerm'???

Just a friendly word of caution

IF this is correct

>>>Betty said her father and mother were driving their pickup and trailer at night when a two legged person in dark clothers ran across the road. They swerved and hit the man. Their son and two people were following, and they glimpsed the man before it was hit. They stopped and looked all over fearing they hit a person. The next day is when they found the skin and hair sample on a trailer bolt. They knew it was no man then.

Testing of sample could result in criminal and civil charges especially since they seem to have seen a "person" in dark clothes.

Holdmybeer said the DNA testing cost about $800. The lady who has the sample doesn't want to spend the money. A sample that is dry and 30 years old should have DNA. It has been handled but couldn't the outer layer be peeled to test the inner layer. I'll email Meldrum.

Good point Longtabber, but the next day they found the patch of skin and hair where the thing hit the trailer, and knew it was not a person. They had no patch of skin prior to this. I've read reports where BFs have been mistaken for humans in heavy dark clothes or bears on two legs. They saw something on two legs, and concluded it must have been a person since they were not up on BF.

I'll see if she can prepare a report. I'm just relaying what I have found out in the last 48 hours.

I'm just telling you/them as a professional courtesy.

You/they can say whatever ( dont get me wrong, I would love a verified BF DNA sample as much as anyone here) regarding what they think or believe.

BUT, if that sample tests HUMAN and no report was made then and if someone was injured/killed in the same time period and someone hears about this testing- that will be disasterous.

Hit and run, leaving the scene, obstruction of justice ( which could be felonies with no statute of limitations) as well as civil actions from victim/survivors. ( even you as an accessory after the fact)

Lab's themselves ( depending on state regulations) are compelled to report "suspicious" human samples ( and a 30 yr old one from a vehicle would CERTAINLY qualify in my mind) on their own.

I'm not trying to rain on your/their parade nor am I attempting to hinder the cause of proving BF.

I simply cannot in good conscience allow you to continue forth without giving you full warning and awareness of the potential ramifications if this turns out to be a human sample under the circumstances of which it was allegedly obtained.

Thats all.

I was looking for a DNA testing lab and read what the Omaha Zoo is up to. They may help us on our DNA test.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinno...es-tested_x.htm

mystery apes
OMAHA (AP) — Scientists hope DNA analysis will reveal the origins of large, mysterious apes discovered in the heart of Africa.
Genetics research started this week at Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo on fecal samples collected this summer from the rare apes to determine if they make up a new species, a new subspecies or some form of hybrid — possibly a mix between a chimpanzee and a gorilla.

"It's a new, mystery ape and we are doing the DNA fingerprinting to find out more," said Dr. Lee Simmons, zoo director.

The apes, which stand five to six feet tall and have feet nearly 14 inches long, were first documented last year by primatologist Shelly Williams of Atlanta in a forest in the northern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo.

They have bodies similar to those of gorillas, but generally the facial characteristics of a chimpanzee. Williams said the animals sleep on the ground at night like gorillas, but eat a fruit-rich diet like chimpanzees.

"I can't speculate yet as to what they are. Their behavior is so unusual. It's a puzzle. ... I feel like Dr. Doolittle in the land of Oz," said Williams, who has captured some video of the animals but no photographs.

Because of their size and elusiveness, the apes have no predators — not even poachers hunt them, Williams said. With no fear of lions, leopards or hyenas, the large animals hoot at the moon as it rises and sets, which is extremely unusual for apes, she said. ................................................................................
..........................

The ones driving the truck, her parents, are deceased.

Interviewing the witnesses as to the facts about the incident is essential. Establishing provenance of the sample is probably more important than the sample itself.

Georgerm, you will receive a call soon.

HMB

The Oregon statute of limitations on personal injury claims is two years, saith this link:
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitatio...ate/Oregon.html

I don't know what the criminal law's limitation is on hit-and-run, but it's surely (?) expired by now.

Oops--but maybe the civil statute has been "tolled" because the perp couldn't be located?

That may or may not matter ( combining your and Rogers post)

Its the difference between civil and criminal statutes.

Not knowing any details ( factual or otherwise) on this alleged incident, the following is generalized.

IF the incident occured and it did involve a human- the rules change. So, the following is a "hypothetical" but a very REAL hypothetical nevertheless.

The people involved may be deceased ( the drivers as well as a potential victim)- that doesnt change the law. IF ( again a big if- and I dont know) this did happen, the H&R would most probably be a felony ( defined as any crime punishable by 1 year or more)

Thus there is no statute of limitations. Also, the laws allow for discovery of new crimes ( crimes discovered years after the fact- you see this a lot in child abuse and others)

This can allow for belated civil actions for heirs, witnesses etc. ( depending upon a million circumstances)

I cant speak with authority because I'm shy on detail but I dont have a warm fuzzy about this.

I have only called the daughter of the witnesses so far. Her brother and two others were following the trailer and saw the biped. I will call them.


I emailed the lady who wrote the BF article, and this is how this issue started. She said she went to Betty's home and saw the skin sample.

Can you on this thread help me find a primate DNA testing lab that will do this cheap or for no charge?

Here is the news article writers email to me:

I think this case is hopeless (for lots of reasons) but there is some misinfo in this thread that should be corrected.

1. Basic DNA testing does not have to cost anywhere near $800. Someone in an established lab, willing to donate their time, can do a basic "what is it" test for less than $200 in material costs.
2. Alcohol (and other solutions) can be and are sometimes used for preserving DNA containing samples, depending on what they are. Strong enough alcohol acts like drying because it essentially "outcompetes" regular water which can be harmful to DNA.
3. The Omaha Zoo story is about 5 years old- see the Squatchopedia entry for brief summary of the Bili chimp story and relevant links.

-A

The fact that it happened 30 years ago makes it more believeable to me, Oregon was probably a hotbed of activity back then, alot less populated & developed. I would not even give a single thought to criminal charges after all it is just a story with a 30 year old chunk of hairy something that I think if tested will prove inconclusive. If it is positive for human DNA then what? The cops will kick down Bettys door and start the investigation? I think not, there are more pressing issues they are dealing with.

These are questions for the genetic experts here (Bluegenes and WY)...I posted on this subject before but it is time to do so again

There is a animal genetics lab at UC Davis -- plse see their website

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/forensics/index.html

Terry Gross Fresh Air interviewed the head of this UC Davis lab on Feb 14 2006 ..see podcast at

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5204605


Terry asked her about her most unusual inquiry. She answered "...to test a BF hair?". After much guffawing Terry asked her "well..?" The director said it was inconclusive because it did not match anything in her data base. Despite her normally awesome interviewing skills, Terry failed to ask the obvious follow-up questions that any of us would have asked. I wish one of the geneitic experts here would listen to this podcast interview and contact this PhD genius who is on the public payroll, has all the facilities (publicly funded) at her disposal to get some answers, but nevertheless disdained giving a straight answer on NPR (publicly funded) and got away with it.



Thanks, LL

I don't think this case is hopeless since the DNA should be in dry tissue. I have emailed about 20 primate DNA labs. One member pm me about a lab that will do this for no charge. I want to check things out so they can compare DNA to other American mammals. Sorry about the Omaha story, I thought it was new. You are right about the cost and some labs adverstise $100 but this is for paternity and this probably won't help.

Lablover, I emailed the Davis lab. thanks

Fano.....if a BF, the DNA will match no known mammal which is good enough.

Geogerm:

Apparently not good enough for the Davis animal forensic lab director or Terry Gross, which was my point. If you listen to the podcast you will tear your own hair out at that point in the interview.


Thanks,
LL

my bold

This is a prime example of some people's inability to quote statements correctly and thereby give out false information.

Lab Lover - were you actually listening to the podcast???

What you say was stated is NOT what was said by the scientist!

I listened to the podcast to see if what you said could be true - and it certainly was not.

At 16:04 ( I put in the time because I wanted people to easily find the spot to hear for themselves without listening to the other 16 minutes)
"We were asked to verify that the hair came from a bigfoot. I told him...(laughter)...yeah...I told him that we could only tell him if it didn't come from a bigfoot since we didn't have a positive bigfoot sample to compare it to."

after a little more laughter and derision...

Question: "Do you have a file of unidentified DNA?"
Answer: "No...no..."
Question: "A DNA that doesn't fit into any species that you know of?
Answer: "(laughter) I'm afraid not..."

Where in the heck did you come up with the idea that there was actually any testing done???
Where did you get the idea that there was any inconclusive results???

hey everyone good morning question for oregon researchers here has there been any resent sasquatch activity before this encounter even happened or any footprints etc in various parts of oregon forests so maybe we can figure out some sort migration of this creature. please keep me posted definetly opinions. any other new oregon sightings etc in various bigfoot/sasquatch databases that might help us with this investigation of the encounter location. also keep me posted on the skin sample dna found. thanks again bill

The report that started this thread is from the eastern part of Coos County just over the border in Douglas County, Oregon. I read about this report in the newspaper written by a local BF buff. The sighting took place in a great habitat for BF, with steep hills and cliffs covered with fir trees, creeks and lush vegetation. When I called the lady who owns the tissue, it turned out her dad hit the BF in 1976.........big disappointment. However she has the dried skin with hair from the BF. Yesterday and today, I have emailed various primated DNA labs to see if they would test the skin. Only 3 replies so far. I need some help on this search.


Bill, my 5th grade class did a science project on BF last year, and to my surprise, eye witness reports trickled in. We live in Coos County along the SW Oregon Coast. The population is sparse, so the chances of public encounters with BF is more difficult. Here are some of them.

BF reports:

My research of reports not posted anywhere.

1993, a student of mine saw a monkey in their trash while camping on the Sixes River.

1997 Hair dresser and daughter saw BF near a lake in the sand dunes. She is the mother of my student. Area is close to Sixes and Elk River near Port Orford.

1994 A student's father saw BF cross Hwy 101 near Coos Bay.

1985 My student's mother, president of school board, took girl scouts camping on Sixes River. Rocks bombarded camp at 2:00 PM

1982 Acquaintence saw BF cross the road on the Sixes River

BFRO Reports from Coos County, Oregon

August 2004 (Class - Several tracks found near County dump for Bandon
Summer 1996 (Class A) - Sighting by two young men on motorcycles
November 1995 (Class A) - Daytime sightings by hunters near Headwaters Ridge in Elliot State Forest
February 1980 (Class A) - Large Bipedal Animal Seen Crossing Rural Road and Climbing Cutbank

BFRO from adjacent county, Douglas County.


September 2004 (Class - Campers hear several types of early morning vocalizations near Diamond Lake
August 2004 (Class A) - Hunter hears morning vocalization and has evening sighting north of Diamond Lake
October 2002 (Class A) - Driver stops, approaches bigfoot on foot
August 2002 (Class A) - Girl describes close encounter on family property in the Lookingglass / Roseburg area
October 1991 (Class A) - Driver has early morning encounter near Rice Hill
June 1991 (Class - Two hikers witness large brown creature moving quickly

Geogerm: I gather you are upset with me. But why all the heat? I heard the broadcast on a car radio. Thank you for carefully getting the whole quote. You have now clarified that neither of us know if she did or did not test the hair. The quote however is I think at least as substantially foolish as I reported it to you, or even more foolish.

Why shouldn't she test a possible BF hair, get the dna profile and start a file? Why should we accept her nonsense answer that you quoted (assuming you took correct dictation of course)?

LL

hey george wow thanks so much for incredible update indeed. keep me & everyone here posted. bill

Well, I haven't heard the audio........... but in what Rock transcribed there is nothing to indicate the sample was tested. I think Rock was correct in correcting your statement, based on the transcript he has provided.

Just my 2 pennies..........

Nope - there is NO doubt that she did not test the hair.
There is NO doubt that she stated that there are no unknown DNA sample files.
It is only foolish if you think that scientists should take this phenomenon seriously given that so much nonsense is bandied about by ill-informed or deliberately lying people.

Why shouldn't she test a "possible BF hair"? Well - that would depend on the circumstances involved - wouldn't it?
IF there was some real corroborating evidence that could convince a person who is well versed in the scientific process and critical thinking that the samples could have come form a previously unrecognized giant hairy bi-pedal ape in North America - then I'm sure she would test it.
Obviously - that criterion wasn't met - yet.

Ok so I got geogerm and rockinct mixed up...my apologies to you both. I suppose I should not be doing this hastily at work. However it seems we don't agree on the the meaning of what the lab director said. Try parsing that quoted sentence as it's now written out (that I heard in the flow of the interview, mind you and I took the meaning contextually). What does she MEAN by it? What is that "if" doing in there? What is she trying to tell Terry Gross except that she considers the subject a joke?

Anyway why let her get away with ridiculing the way the request came in, viz., to "verify" that it was BF and then make a joke about why she could not do that...

BTW how do you know for certain that it was not tested? She didn't say that , but I grant that given her attitude and the fact she said she does not keep an UNK data base of samples she probably did not do so, and I got that part wrong.

But how do we know there was no other corroborating evidence? That seems like an assumption. TG failed to ask the follow-up questions that could have clarified a lot.

I still think my basic point is valid. That a state lab should test samples like this if they come from earnest folks who are willing to provide collection data and why it's a reasonable request, etc.

"Earnest folks" mean that there would be no control on any hair brained testing on anything that they wanted tested.
Come on. There has to be standards met or else everybody that believes half the crap that is bandied about as "evidence" would be bringing their own "evidence" to be tested and plugging up a great lab that does very important work.


That's it folks - 2500 posts - and it's my last one on this board.

LabLover,

I'm curious why you seem to be pointing fingers just because a researcher wouldn't keep a file of "unknown" dna? You do realize that one could have a file of "inconclusive dna" (dna which was damaged beyond exact identification or contaminated) but to me truly "unknown dna" would have to come from an unidentified species........... certainly you can see that this would rarely happen and therefore most researchers would not have such a file at their disposal. Add to that an unidentified primate species, and I think you can see that this file would be pretty (like not there skinny) skinny.......

Rock I for one am sad to see you leave.

God Bless you in all your travels!
Roy

Good luck in your travels rock, we will miss you, sure you won't be a "lurker in perpetuity" Sure is a noman's land.
I think you'll be back like "roger the rocket" Ok Tim, you can lay the lyrics to Nowhere Man on us now

Wouldn't this statement negate the hit & run charge: "They stopped and looked all over fearing they hit a person." Sounds like they made a good faith effort to assist and could not find a victim. Of course, I guess they could have called the police when they got home (cell phones not being around then).

OK Tim here is a jump-start:

Nowhere man please listen,
you don't know what your missin'
Rock, What are you going to do if the Vancouver Island/BC people take you up on your offer of an investigation? We won't hear back
from your successful lasso'in of the sasquatch on meth.

This old skin and hair has to be fairly degraded if not protected in paper for all these years, what is the state of 32 year old
specimens of similar import?

Hi

Well if you insist, Nowhere Man was writen by Lennon/McCartney , From the Album Rubber Soul 1965

Que Up :

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Doesn't have a point of view
knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere man please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere man, The world is at your command

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere man, can you see me at all
Nowhere man don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all till somebody else
Lends you a hand
Ah, la, la, la, la

Doesn't have a point of view
knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere man please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere man, The world is at your command
Ah, la, la, la, la

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Peace
Tim

Well I am certainly sorry Rockinct wasted his last post on this back and forth.

I agree UC Davis is a great veterinary school and lab and I have taken some of my dogs there for difficult issues with great success. But let me put it this way about the forensic genetic lab director who would not test the BF hair (or did and found it did not match anything so ignored it-- I am still unclear about that) but nontheless found the whole episode memorable enough to use it for several minutes of her precious airtime and many laughs in her 30 minutes of fame on NPR. This irritated me greatly and I don't understand why it doesn't irritate others on this board. Don't you get it? It was important enough for her to talk about in her 30 minutes of fame but STILL she either refused to test it (Why?) or did and refused to recognize it as an UNK species because HER lab does not keeop a file on UNK species (Why Not! Wouldn't that be important to a scientist? )

The point about standards could easily be met by some kind of screening questionnaire. This board is not the place to work out and debate those details. What harm, I would like to say to her, would it be to set up a safe submission site for such samples when people find them? So what if she gets a lot of them?

Why is anyone arguing with me about this?

LL

Thats it, laypeople arent allowed to make those kinds of decisions. Theres no getting around making a report when they themselves admitted to an incident occuring that MAY have involved a human




Her answer is absurd. Where is the dataset? ( without that, its meaningless)

LL, one of Rockin's points is that any dna analysis should have as a prerequisite a chain of evidence that assures proper collection, documentation, custody and protocol of the sample. I can not fault this point, it helps weed out sloppy efforts. Your issue about the NPR reporter who doesn't give credence is nothing new in the press, it is the standard modus operandi. Why should we be appalled, it is the common treatment the field oftentimes receives as a result of 1) Lack of standard research protocols 2)Lack of empathy/sympathy to our field or 3) Lack of neurons, creativity or a brain function common to people who can accept the not easily accepted. NPR makes mistakes, believe me, I'm a listener, I don't believe I remember listening to that show, if I did, I realized it was an abbreviated effort or sound bite with no true substance, the topic of the show was not bigfoot dna, if some prep. work for that specific purpose had been done, I'd be a little more concerned about the lack of journalistic perseverance. Can you imagine if she had been a bigfoot proponent in her approach what that might have done to the reputation of that lab.? Look at it that way. I'm a researcher who chooses to remain as anonymous as I can for the very same reasons. Do you mean why isn't anyone arguing with you or why are they?

Did I miss something? Why is Rock leaving? I don't even know him and I'm sad to see him go!

Good luck in whatever endeavors you choose next. If you ever decide to return we will still be here.