You know, rockinkt, your antagonism toward me is clear, and I can take it, but why is it that so often when I say something to longtabber PE, there you immediately are, yip-yapping like a shih tzu with a badge? Maybe you think he does, but I don't really think he needs your help. But if you feel the need to interject yourself, I can handle it.


So this is how you felt, in your unbiased and humble opinion, of course, about the original offer of a bet. Now tell us how raising it one million dollars fits in your double standards.

And maybe you call it "goading" for me, and never have any objection for him, but can you actually show me where I am mistaken or unreasonable in any of the points I just made in the post you responded to?
And another thing Officer Rock, have I rejected the limit yet or has he changed the terms after accepting the terms, in your humble opinion, of course?


Edit to add:

After further thought, there is no need for either of you to respond. I do not wish to push this distraction and tangent from the subject of this thread any further, as my points have already been sufficiently made, unless ltPE would like to adhere to our original parameters and with a reasonably unreasonable wager.

Even if I had $100k to blow, this isn't where or how I would risk it. It would be in the field.

As interesting as all this high stakes betting is, how about we get back to the topic and leave this pissing match to PMs?

Amen! T

Again, I have no dog in this fight but it sure is fun to watch.

online community is a better term in my mind

Hi

That word " Subtle " has a few different meanings, skillful, clever, or ingenious ~~~~~ thin, tenuous, or rarefied, as a fluid or an odor

Good thing you missed that course

Peace
Tim

And what a pissing match it was! I think we all got sprinkled on a bit. I know I am still wiping it off!

hey teresa i totaly agree your above reply indeedy.. but i always look forward to researchers here very informative opinions replys regarding this filmfootage if we see it near future indeed if possible. updates as it continues... thanks bill p.s. i hope john bindernagel comes to this wonderful forum to make statement about this filmfootage some time in near future.

Well, I've been away for a while, but I see that there still is NO STINKING video to be seen.

I'd agree with LT that the reason for this is that there is NO STINKING video to be seen.

This is nothing new and has been out there awhile, so I'm sure many of you have also seen it before, but I had forgotten until someone recently reminded me, surprised that no one had referenced it here so far:

http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2007/10/...on-in-ohio.html

http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2007/10/...ion-part-2.html

http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2007/10/...ion-part-3.html

hey jack wow very interesting above links regarding this situation indeed. thanks bill

interesting story, thank's for the link. I'd say that's definitely the Kentucky situation. The pancake video is mentioned too. Hmm... but it doesn't bring us closer to the solution of this mystery. But maybe Blogsquatcher knows something new, something that happend since he wrote this articles. Isn't he the co-host of Sasquatch Watch radio?

Blogsquatcher, have you some updates?


this may be also about this project...

http://www.searchingforbigfoot.com/The_Mys...destine_Project

the "mystery man" sounds a lot like Adrian Erickson and the "neighbor that didn't open the door" a lot like *******

hmm...

I was astonished, actually considering the source I should say appalled, to read what was posted and I agree fully with this being edited by another moderator.

Lord love a duck.

hey sasquatch oboy this is going to realy heated in indeedy to your above reply. good afternoon bill updates as it continues HEHE.. i just love saying that line

this thread is realy quiet opps bite my tough lmao updates as it continues

Bill, you could do something for this thread and call Adrian Erickson

hey sasquatch ROFL... i cant call adrian erickson but i could email him if possible if its regards this filmfootage. ty for the above reply. thanks bill. updates as they continue...

I've been pretty busy so I'm just catching up with this thread now and I didn't intend to comment, but after seeing the character attacks and accusations towards the individuals involved in this project who are good friends of mine--- by a few people here who frankly don't have a clue no less, I felt I should.
Not to mention, it appears there's even a stalker in the thread who believes that if he could just successfully harass (or get someone else to) the project participants maybe he could get some information out of them to share with everybody. I'm always amazed at how some people feel that simply because they have an interest in the subject or participate on a forum, they feel they possess some sense of entitlement when it comes to information--as if they deserve to be personally debriefed regarding someone else's efforts, who may I remind everyone here, the parties involved here haven't dangled their findings in front of anyone like a carrot (not referring to "Bindernagel's slip"), nor have they made any promises or claims during the investigation. It's been just the opposite, as they've secretly placed their own resources and efforts for a lengthy period of time into investigating what could be a strong habituation scenario and have done their best to remain under the radar for some damn good reasons such as neglecting to compromise a promising location with potential re-occuring activity. That logic has gone over a few enquiring minds heads apparently.
Speaking of logic, why would a young PHD put her ass on the line (most of us couldn't and wouldn't because of our life situations) and risk everything she's worked for to knowingly be part of a 3 year hoax regarding animals she's unsure even exist and that may or may not advance the subject with the limitations of presented findings (some short videos and possibly some other physical evidence I'm unaware of). I'd be willing to bet that most here couldn't and or wouldn't spend three years of your life living somewhere you can't stand-- away from family and friends, knowing that the end results WOULD bring absolute finality or resolution to the mystery, let alone being unsure of the end result.
Also, if this is just a hoax or there wasn't a strong belief that you were dealing with the real thing, would you physically endure it for three years there? Or why not do a one-month hoax using all your resources and live a normal life for the other 35 months? Does that really make much sense to anybody? How about inviting both Meldrum & Bindernagel, who regardless of what anybody's opinion is regarding them or their contributions to the field, I would argue considering their history with the subject & reputations within the community, neither would tolerate or endorse an obvious hoax and discuss it positively publicly as each has done.
For the record, I know both *** & Dennis. Not to mention, the uninvited intrusion by a known hoaxer/charlatan in this field who used another certain infamous "researcher" on his payroll to find the location, set-up shop and disrupt the whole project. To what extent is not fully known and may never be and that my friends is truly a shame. I also hope the whole story is told eventually.

I'm well aware of many of the hardships both Dennis & *** went through at least on a bi-monthly basis the last few years and find it funny that there's people here who've contributed absolutely nothing to this field (which is OK in and of itself) other then being consistently argumentative in their interactions here and elsewhere and endlessly pushing their own credentials, while blasting my friends and calling them incompetent when you effectively know nothing good or bad about this investigation yet and how it was conducted.
Now I can't and won't vouch for how great the footages previously mentioned are as I personally haven't seen them yet. I just know what they supposedly show from several different parties who have & personally shared with me their detailed observations & interpretations. But I can absolutely vouch for the character's of the two main participants (Dennis & ***) involved as well as what they've been through. A matter of fact, I'm fairly confident in the legitimacy of what's been collected only because of their involvement.
But yet, some people who are not attached in anyway to the nuisances of a lengthy project like this, go and create a list of expectations (posturing all the while) based on a time period (3 years) and their so-called field or "professional" experience (as if anyone can claim that in this field or relate it specifically to bigfooting) and brand it a failure if those expectations are not met- questioning the competency of the investigators in the interim. Has it occurred to any of the bigfoot "experts" & inspecter Clouseau's here who freely criticize and "know" what should've been accomplished in 3 years, that it's likely the animals were not casually loitering around the property grounds day and night and those "incompetent" persons did the best they could do under those circumstances? Did anyone ever think for a second that these "things" may've visited only occasionally & "unannounced" with no discernable pattern and sometimes disappeared for not days, weeks or months, but sometimes seasons at a time? I guess for some that's a slight afterthought or unreasonable variable to expect from animals that are frequently seen but remain scientifically unrecognized and it's 2008.
Well, I'm no expert, but if I didn't know about the project or the individual participants themselves and assumed this could be a real habituation scenario, I wouldn't exactly expect the physical "habituations" to be consistent. But hey, I guess that's just me being reasonably objective before trying to impress other forum participants with tough talk about a scenario and persons I'm fully speculating on and know absolutely nothing about.

Out of respect for my friends Dennis & ***, I'm not here to answer questions regarding details of their investigation as I know or suspect them (not my place), but I'm here because of the ridiculous & premature speculation I see here about those friends who've done nothing wrong up to this point except privately investigate a location & situation that warranted an investigation from people like most of us who pursue these animals or have more then just a passive interest in the subject. I don't expect anyone to just take my word for it but it needs to be said here that although he resides two states away from me, Dennis is a great guy who I've been out in the field with less then a week overall (2005) but we've maintained a great friendship for the last 3 1/2 years. From my experience and our lengthy conversations about the subject and life in general--I can say with confidence that he's more trustworthy then most people I've met in bigfooting and in my 5-6 years in the field- I've met, conversed with, been out in the field with and am friends with-- hundreds of individuals. And that shouldn't be misinterpreted as a shot against anyone else, it's just a true assessment of Dennis' character. I know alot of wonderful people involved in this field.
I feel the same way about Leila, who I've been out with several times here in CA and even gave her her first bigfoot book (Big Footprints) back in early 2005. A matter of fact, when the BFRO was initially involved with the project (hasn't been for sometime), my personal recommendations were for both *** & Kathy Strain to be the female representatives of the group to go on-site.
As for both Dennis & ***, I can tell you for a fact that neither of them had ever seen or claimed to have seen one of these animals before committing to this project (neither had I back then) and neither one of them was 100% sure these animals were even real in the first place before they were asked to be involved.
And no one directly involved has claimed or is claiming they had or have the "smoking gun" or that this is now "case closed" regarding these animals. A matter of fact, both seem to me a little disappointed that their efforts didn't yield more and to put it lightly, have a very modest & conservative outlook on what impact will be made when the findings will be public.
Furthermore, I may or may not know more than MM does at this point, but I will say that just about everything I saw here quoted by MM and copy and pasted from another forum, is an absolutely true assessment of the events & personalities regarding the project as I know them independently from MM as well. The only thing I don't agree with what MM said in those quotes is my personal opinion of Craig Woolheater is very different from his-- as although I think it was completely unethical of Cryptomundo to play the pancake video without permission, I've gotten to know Craig and I like and respect him as a person, a fellow researcher and as a friend. Personally, I fully support the efforts of the TBRC.
And for what it's worth, I personally would've revealed my cards differently then in the form of an initial dvd documentary, as I believe it understandably just breeds speculation & motives to an already murky subject. If it were my project, I would've revealed my full hand when I was ready and if the findings were significant, the documentary sells itself after as people want to learn more. But you know what? That's easy to say when it's not my call, not my personal finances or emotional investment into the project, nor is it anybody else's here. The fact is is that it may negatively effect someone's perception or initial impression, but has absolutely no basis whatsoever in the reality of the subjects claimed to have been periodically studied and recorded here.
I've always agreed from day one--- critical or damning evidence, rather it be film, physical, forensic, whatever must stand on its own anyway--it can't be presented with a biased, subjective narration or be pointed out. Maybe when the results from this lengthy investigation are made available soon they will make an impact or be of major significance to the field. Maybe a greater significance will be down the road when there's comparison footage from elsewhere- maybe they won't--I can't say. Either way, persecuting those who gave it a 3-year shot doesn't make much sense when they don't owe you, me or anyone else anything. At least we'll have an opportunity to see the results ourselves and evaluate the case, which could've easily been deemed insufficient by those involved and kept buried if they so wished. Considering what I've read by a few individuals in this thread (who again, not only don't know nothing about it, but haven't even seen the footage yet either) maybe those involved should reconsider, avoiding the headache all-together & unfair repercussions for something that was likely never completely in their control in the first place---- undeniable documentation of the existence of animals no one on earth has successfully documented to this point either.

If anyone needs any clarification about anything I said that doesn't have to do with details of the investigation I didn't include (which is not my place to share) I'll answer them when I can. But if you want to break up what I said into quotes and have a 5-day 50-hour back and forth, your wasting your time and mine---hence I didn't want to single anybody out I was criticizing by name. What I said above is the absolute truth as I know it and I've said my peace in defense of friends that shouldn't have even needed to be defended in the first place.

Hi

Bart is back

Peace
Tim

Bart, I only have one question for you. The owners of the place where the pancake video was shot. Of course, I'm all too aware of the problems with that husband and wife, but I was under the assumption that they had sold the property to Adrian. Is that true and if so, how are they still a problem?

The other thing I heard was that they bought a parcel of land close to the one they sold to Adrian and that the bigfoot(s) had taken up residence there since they had started up their feeding program at the new place. Is that true?

I'm racking my brain trying to remember who it was that invaded the area and screwed things up but I'm coming up empty. Must be Alzheimer's. I know somebody did that, but can't remember who it was.

Lastly... do ya ever hear from my old "friend" Gregg Clay?


ummm actually, I think that was three questions. Oops

Hi love, how's me & G Clay's "looney-toon" doing? LOL.

I miss ya!

You know what, I've never heard from him again.

As for your first question I think you got close to answering it with your second question but the facts may be a little muddled as I've forgotten some of it myself. There is some other ways of manipulation I can't state publicly at this time out of respect for those involved. You're close though honey.

And for the third question, I'll give you a hint--on the same page as my post someone posted a link about a project. Click on it.

I guess you could say that's where some extra fire came from (from me) when Longtabber and myself investigated the circumstances of the GA body hoax and those involved.

How anyone can contribute to directly and selfishly sabotaging what they know or believe is a legitmate investigation for money is beyond me and beyond forgiveness imo.

Gotcha... I just got "total recall."

your favorite loony-toon.

Great post Bart. Damn straight.

Did you recognize yourself in there, Marvin?

Bart, thank's for these clarifications... just in case you thought about me, when you wrote "stalker"... I'm a blogger, trying to get infos, trying to share infos, if people give me these, great, if they don't no problem... so I'm just doing my job.... and this is a forum, it's for information sharing...

I think this is a problem in the bigfoot community: a lot of folks don't ask directly the people who (could) know but instead spread rumors and gossip about it.

I have some questions for you:
Is there only a documentary in production or a scientific paper or book too?
When will this documentary be released?

I hope they don't go too much into detail. Thank's!

My bolding. Bart, this is not directed at you specifically, but just a general question to all reading this thread.

If this is true, what about this particular research project makes anyone think that it is a "habituation"? (And, puhleeeze, don't try to use the "pancake eating" video as some kind of proof.)

If these are the circumstances that ***and Dennis are truly having to deal with concerning any bigfoot-like creatures, then I can see hanging out there for "awhile", if it has been proven to be a area of some activity. If the creatures are "passing through" this area on an infrequent basis, then that indicates nothing more that usual animal behavior, like any other critter. Hence, a longer study.

But, if there is supposed to be an actual "habituation", (which I don't believe), then it wouldn't take 3 years to get any of the documentation needed to prove so.

Now Bart, if you "assumed" this to be a real habituation scenario, why wouldn't you "assume" the physical habituations to be consistent?

Thanks,

Craig

hey bart welcome back wow very inpressive above reply regarding this situation. updates as it continues... thanks bill

Sasquat.ch-

I admit it was a little harsh calling you a "stalker," and I apologize. Believe me, I understand your excited to learn as much as you can regarding this long-rumored investigation. However, you should understand that emailing people you don't know, encouraging other people to do so as well and even publicly displaying a private email (could've swore it was there the other day) to get information that's obviously not being made public on purpose is not typically socially acceptable behavior unless of course you have the excuse of being one of those paid "news barbies"- which I doubt you are.

Having said that, I wish your blog well and to answer your question- It's my understanding that the documentary will be released soon and is likely in production now.

Craig-

I apologize for my liberal use of the word "habituation" to describe infrequent visits by these animals, but to the same general location over a unspecified but lengthy amount of time. I assure you the last thing I intended to do was mislead the reader into believing that my use of the term "habituation" meant that several large primates arrived in the backyard of the property like clockwork at 5PM every evening for three years straight.
I understand there's a deviation between me habituating my couch during football season every sunday morning & these primates (who haven't been proven to exist officially) frequenting a place a lot less frequently and without an obvious & discernable rhyme or reason. Although, if memory serves me right, that might not have always been the case here, at least in the beginning.
To be technically accurate, maybe instead of "habituation" I should've called it "infrequent but occasional, indeterminate re-occuring visitations to a general place." If you want Craig, go ahead and plug that in in bold to my post in place of the other word and see if that works better for ya.

Of course, I'm giving you a hard time, but to answer your question- "why I wouldn't expect visitations to be consistent," allow me to ask you one. Why would you expect visitations to be consistent and or patterned when I'd argue if they were or it was that simple, there would be no current debate regarding existence of the animals?
Sure it's easy to pattern deer and we know food sources affect and determine those patterns. And yes, we can pattern black bears even though males can encompass home ranges of more then 100 km. Yet even those animals routines are thrown off by scent, noise and areas of higher concentration of human activity.
From a personal standpoint (having seen one through my own eyes) and taking into consideration normal animal behavior & how it's effected by human activity, why would I expect consistent visitations from one or more of these things? That kind of predictable behavior would be unprecedented in terms of being previously documented (though certainly not impossible and has been claimed). Add-in what I know about the difficulties and uninvited hoaxer guests and it makes even more sense to me.

Furthermore, I'd like to know how can you or anybody else, when it comes to the bigfoot subject, can declare for absolute certainty what can or should be accomplished in a general area of unpatterned but repeated activity over a 3-year period. Are suggesting that you know you would've done better in that situation? Or are you suggesting because of what you're speculating on what they may or may not have documented quantity-wise, it must be a hoax?

BTW, for the record, I don't think (a matter of fact, I know) anyone involved in this project had planned to stay there for 3 years, just like some of us who didn't plan to stay in that relationship another year or thought their personal circumstances would allow them to quit that job they planned to leave much sooner etc.... I guess sometimes in life things don't workout as we initially anticipated.
All I know is that their must have been enough there and enough experienced to continue on. I know from my own experience, if it was humanly possible for me to drive 17-20 hrs north into WA every weekend and "habituate" and squatch where I saw it ---well, I wouldn't squatch anywhere else. A matter of fact, I'd even miss football for it

Finally, a voice of reason! Thanks for all of that, bartlojays. I must admit, I do get tired of all the senseless bashing that this thread has produced.
Dudlow

hey bart wow very informative above reply regarding this filmfootage keep us updated please.. thanks bill

Bart, I think you get my point. I wouldn't think that anyone would spend three years just to embellish a hoax. If this was "habituation", then *** and Dennis would have more to show for it. What they probably have there is a spot of "infrequent" activity, but some activity all the same. At least enough "infrequent" activity to stay there and try to figure it out.

I know of two other places that has more than "infrequent" activity, and I only wish that I could devote a couple of years in those spots trying to gather some proof. Having to work and make a living sure does put a crimp on my monster hunting!

bartlojays for man of the year

yes, Bart. Put the addresses in the forum was wrong though they can be found easily with a Google search. Sorry for that.
But contacting Erickson directly is in my opinion the right way.

And after all what has been said (especially by Mr. Bindernagel and Mr. Moneymaker) I just can't understand why he doesn't give a public statement to stop the rumors and say what's really going on and when the new evidence will be released.

But I have to support another poster here: just to release a documentary isn't the right way to get the attention of mainstream science...

and that big-headed figure in the pancake video still looks silly to me and I don't think that anyone will accept this as a prove for the existence of sasquatch... do you know why it's head is just so big? Seriously...

so please allow to be skeptical and to ask questions

this thread is getting realy heated hot now wait until this filmfootage comes out in near future then this thread will go over boiling point loool updates as it continues. good afternoon bill

Has their been ANYTHING even remotely related to this subject come up lately? IMO this is the most important event going on in the subject of Bigfoot since the Patterson Film!

Let's say the "potentially" most important event since the PGF... but you're right... the problem is that no one of the main characters want to talk... and I can't understand this. I mean I don't need details, just the info how good the footage is and when it will be released...

Either way IMO it IS the biggest thing since PGF. On one hand if its all crap/hoaxed then that will knock the BFRO out of the picture for good(Not saying I want that to happen, I like what they are doing!) And if it is what they say it is then, well, it will be years before we are done discussing it Life will be breathed into this forum/entire subject soon.(Not that it is dead)

hey sasquatch & xion im sure we will hear or see more updates about this filmfootage in near future lets be very .... patient now.... good afternoon bill

I would start the bids at 200 dollars for a copy if this project is what it is said to be! I want to see one of the big guys!

Hi!
It seems something is going on again. As I had not to much time the last weeks, it would be nice if someone could give me a short abstract of whats going on here.
What I got to know is that good footage (who determined that?) is going to be released soon in a documentary. It was made at a location "Habituation" where research was ongoing for several years. (who brought up this story?)

THX

Not good.
Never.
Hope that helps.

No, not really.

Can you explan? Have you seen the footage?

the exciting debates continue here.. thanks bill. updates as it continues

Just go back and read the thread. It is all there and then some.

For those who aren't familiar with the events:

a timeline of the events so far. I wrote it originally in german and translated it with the google tool. I hope it's still readable :-)

June 2005: Two men watch a monkey-like being on a property in the Ohio River Valley in Kentucky. A friend of the two men reports the sighting to the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization (BFRO). She writes that it was not the first time that such a creature wandered around on the property.

23rd June 2005: A BFRO investigator (Gregg Clay) goes to the property. He finds tracks and hears strange noises. The man, who observed the creature and who the land belongs, shows a video that shows the animal.

At the end of June 2005: Two more BFRO researchers travel to the property to analyze the video. They believe that it shows a costumed person. The main parts of the clips are missing. Other clues such as tracks and noises let the researchers conclude that there could be a sasquatch in the vicinity.

July: The first BFRO researcher spends more time on the property and sees with his night vision a creature with a face like an orang-utan. BFRO director Matt Moneymaker travels to Kentucky. He has differences with the property owners.

24th July 2005: Moneymaker films an alleged sasquatch on the property. The recording is at night, there is not much to see except some big-headed creature that takes a pancake bait.

3rd August 2005: Clay resigns from the BFRO. His decision is connected with the Kentucky project.

13th September 2005: Matt Moneymaker sells all the rights of the pancake video to Adrian Erickson, owner of the British Columbia company NEWgrowth Capital Corporation and BFRO member. The purchase price: 20 000 U.S. dollars.

At the end of 2005: Adrian Erickson employs the ecologist ***** to collect further evidence on the property. Moneymaker says 2008 in several forums that ***** spent three years on the property.

9th February 2007: The pancake clip is published by Craig Woolheater on cryptomundo.com.

April 2007: Woolheater is legally forced by Erickson and the BFRO to remove the video from the Internet site. In the complaint letter is written that more footage was obtained at the same location. They are also in possession of NEWgrowth Capital Corporation. A motion picture is in production.

2007: According to Moneymaker Sasquatch researchers Jeffrey Meldrum and John Bindernagel visit the project in Kentucky.

January 2008: John Bindernagel says to a CanWest News Service journalist that he had seen a sasquatch. This information brings the Kentucky situation back into the spotlight.

2008: During the year Bindernagel gives more information: Erickson is in possession of about 20 video clips. "Some of them were very good," says Bindernagel, "not better than the Patterson film, just different."

To be continued ...

The information comes from various forums, including that of the BFRO and bigfootforums.com, as well as articles on blogsquatcher.blogspot.com

additions and corrections are always welcome :-)

Thank you for the time line, it's very helpful



So only portions of this video are believed to be faked? Are the other 20 clips supposed to be legitimate?

Wow, how intelligent you are. I would never had thought of that. Amacing. Keep up the good work.

Sasquat.ch

Is there anywhere a discription of the BF Bindernagel saw?

A little correction from my side: Only one of the investigators thought it was a costumed person.

@Data: I read somewhere, I think it was that CanWest News article, that the bigfoot Mr. Bindernagel saw was 1.8 meters big

Nice work Sasquat.ch.

this is getting very informative everyday indeedy please keep it up thanks bill