Full Version: Migration
In reading the many post on this forum and listening to the various Blog radio programs, I occationally see the topic of migration come up. Is there any evidence one way or the other? I seem to remember Jimmy Chillcut on LMS mention that he found the same dermal ridges on two different cast that were made years apart and also from different states aswell. It is obvoius that track casts would probably be the only way to support this since visual identification is rare at best. Besides the example I just stated, are there any others?
I am of the opinion that like many animals they would have a large range, the bigger the animal the more room it needs.
If there is enough food, water, cover indefinately for a BF, why would it need to travel 40-50 miles to another likeable spot? I realize that not too many foot prints are found anymore so we are only guessing. Does anyone else remember the statment from LMS?
If someone could create 12 maps, one for each month of the year, then locate each sighting on the map for the month, it may indicate a pattern of moving down in elevation and/or south during the winter. There are enough reports to make a fairly good statistical comparison. Anybody up for the task?
Is it just me that spotted the unintended pun in the subtitle of this thread?
Yes, probably just me.
Yes, probably just me.
Hi Paul, you liked the sub-tittle? Well at least it got me a couple of responses.
I've done maps for an area of intrest trying to find the same thing. The problem is that my sightings map shows that the BF's only hang out on major roads 9 months out of the year. I know that is not true. And I doubt that witness' are seeing the same animal in these different locations. The sightings map that I created for Pierce Co. Wa. shows activity in a given area with out large gaps in time (2 years or more). Indicating that the animal may stay in a local area like deer or elk. I am of the opinion that Bf dont migrate great distances unless they are pushed out of an area or their species is expanding. I was trying re-read some of the many books out there to see if I can find evidence to support a miragtion and found the cast discussion on "LMS". But what I dont know is who presented the casts. Jimmy Chillcut claimed that they were authentic casts.
Does anyone else have an opinion, or should I just stick to lurking?
-Chuck
I've done maps for an area of intrest trying to find the same thing. The problem is that my sightings map shows that the BF's only hang out on major roads 9 months out of the year. I know that is not true. And I doubt that witness' are seeing the same animal in these different locations. The sightings map that I created for Pierce Co. Wa. shows activity in a given area with out large gaps in time (2 years or more). Indicating that the animal may stay in a local area like deer or elk. I am of the opinion that Bf dont migrate great distances unless they are pushed out of an area or their species is expanding. I was trying re-read some of the many books out there to see if I can find evidence to support a miragtion and found the cast discussion on "LMS". But what I dont know is who presented the casts. Jimmy Chillcut claimed that they were authentic casts.
Does anyone else have an opinion, or should I just stick to lurking?
-Chuck
When I say range I mean "area" not migration. To me migration is seasonal in one place and seasonal in another mostly for food, breeding, etc. There are sightings at high elevations as well as hard winter areas so BF must be able to adapt to seasonal changes. If the same footprint can be found in two locations that could support my thought the move in large areas. I certainly don't know...just a guess.
QUOTE(Paul1968UK @ Mar 12 2008, 08:33 AM) 
Is it just me that spotted the unintended pun in the subtitle of this thread?
HAH! Not 'til you pointed it out.
I think they are somewhat nomadic, making them very difficult to pattern. We go through "hot periods" when there is a lot of activity ("a lot" being a relative term) and then years with no activity. The early 70's were very active, as was the middle of this decade. Most activity in our neck of the woods appears to be in late summer, early fall, and I assume that is the breeding season.
QUOTE(Hitechhunter @ Mar 12 2008, 06:24 PM)
I think they are somewhat nomadic, making them very difficult to pattern. We go through "hot periods" when there is a lot of activity ("a lot" being a relative term) and then years with no activity. The early 70's were very active, as was the middle of this decade. Most activity in our neck of the woods appears to be in late summer, early fall, and I assume that is the breeding season.
Hitch, I tend to agree on a breeding season. With very few exceptions, all wild animals have a well defined breeding season. The reason for this is simple, in that it's timed so that their young are born early the following spring(at least, in most cases), so that the young have the maximum potential growth period before the following winter. Of course, this may not hold true in tropical areas and in some areas the "window" will of course not be summer, but something such as a wet season..but in any case, the point is that the breeding season is thus offset by whatever the normal gestation period is for said animal.
In our case, that is 9 months, which is very similar I belive in other great apes. Postulating that BF is a great ape(I don't think there is much argument in that), then if it's gestation is of similar length to ours, then a mid summer-early fall breeding season is to be expected.
I lean towards the late Dr. Krantz' theroy. No matter when a Bf gets pregnent, the mother or infant is going to be vulnerable to winter either during gestation or the infants first winter. I think a male will mate with a non-lactating female whenever or however, it can.
Was I the only one that heard the duplicate dermal ridges on different sets of cast miles apart and also years apart? I think it was on LMS, I am going to watch it again to see if I heard correctly. I might of heard it on one of the BFRO symposium DVDs. Or I might just be hearing things.
Was I the only one that heard the duplicate dermal ridges on different sets of cast miles apart and also years apart? I think it was on LMS, I am going to watch it again to see if I heard correctly. I might of heard it on one of the BFRO symposium DVDs. Or I might just be hearing things.
It is my understanding that dermal ridges were indeed observed, but i don't believe he was indicating that they were from the same individual creature.
Hard to know if they migrate since we don't know what their "normal" range is. Guess you are going to have to electronically tag the next one you see... 
There was one case where a crippled bigfoot made some tracks in Washington (I think) and then months later the same tracks showed up in either Oregon or California. I cannot remember the details or which site reported the info. While this does not prove anything, it does show that they are capable of long range movement over time.
There was one case where a crippled bigfoot made some tracks in Washington (I think) and then months later the same tracks showed up in either Oregon or California. I cannot remember the details or which site reported the info. While this does not prove anything, it does show that they are capable of long range movement over time.
There is some data to suggest that in Southern Oregon and Northern California there does seem to be a Migratory situation that occurs. This involves Squatches wintering in the lower Valleys of Del Norte, and Humboldt Counties in Northern California. As Spring comes in to the region and the weather warms, it seems that the Squatches in Del Norte County will move back into the higher peaks of the Coast Range, and the Siskiyous of Southern Oregon. The Squatches of Humboldt County make their way back into the Coast Range, and even back to the Trinity Alps. I found in four years of independent research that there seem to be peaks in Encounters in the low valleys and along the Coast in Northern California in the Winter months. Meanwhile, there is a noticeable decrease in Bigfoot activity in the Siskiyous of Southern Oregon. In the Spring, and certainly in the Summer that trend reverses itself.
The recent BFRO Expedition here in Southern Oregon actually helped verify that. The Expedition did have contact with Squatches, and the area where this occured had not been previously scouted by them, (BFRO). The area had also just a had a major snowpack melt off. Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.
The recent BFRO Expedition here in Southern Oregon actually helped verify that. The Expedition did have contact with Squatches, and the area where this occured had not been previously scouted by them, (BFRO). The area had also just a had a major snowpack melt off. Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.
QUOTE(Medfordbigfoot @ Jun 17 2008, 06:09 PM)
The recent BFRO Expedition here in Southern Oregon actually helped verify that. The Expedition did have contact with Squatches, and the area where this occured had not been previously scouted by them, (BFRO). The area had also just a had a major snowpack melt off. Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.
This I gotta hear
QUOTE(Medfordbigfoot @ Jun 17 2008, 08:09 PM)
Matt Moneymaker has a theory that actually ties into Migration, and it was borne out to be true.
Hi
Go for it
Peace
Tim
Any responses to this thread are all individual theroies. The only way we can find out is to have teams in areas that are easily traveled. No matter what u are terrain dictates all movement. All reports are by chance. The time we take from our busy schedule and go to their "house, uninvited" and happen upon them, or have some sort of an experince is all by chance. of course, this is just my opinion. take care- jacob 
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Alot of animals travels great distances for breeding along with weather conditions changing such as winter starting to set in
furthermore alot of animals shed there winter coat to summer one to which requires them to move south ward outside the cold
zone.
Ainmals are known for migration of 100's of miles in a single distance for breeding, Now a animal to which seams to operate with stealth like movements would be used extreme caution in these movements traveling cross country.Further
more such activities would sudjest that there smart enough to solve problems like avoid being seen in great numbers while
moving or gathering .
The old timers say they were a evil from way back ! Being from the dark ages to were made men cross gens and did
create test tube babies of mixtures between animals and man. The refers to such actions in the old testament and breeding
people with animals to were they were both to be put to death and the offspring too!
If such activities did taken place and the creation was turned lose into the forest to live,then as they breeded into different family groups to which would migrate to other areas and to continue with this activities to were they had even crossed oceans
or narrow land paths into other sections of the world,could of spread them abroad worldwide.
Remeber during the mad scenctist days when there was grossly evil,these men did create extreme issues of concern to
the rest of the world during this time and people was banned from towns according to history,they can't all be legons without facts or true elements.
And to say if they were part man with thinking and problem solving ability what to say they didn't place there dead into the ground after seeing us! To which leaded by example for them .
Who really knows Hunter Jim
Alot of animals travels great distances for breeding along with weather conditions changing such as winter starting to set in
furthermore alot of animals shed there winter coat to summer one to which requires them to move south ward outside the cold
zone.
Ainmals are known for migration of 100's of miles in a single distance for breeding, Now a animal to which seams to operate with stealth like movements would be used extreme caution in these movements traveling cross country.Further
more such activities would sudjest that there smart enough to solve problems like avoid being seen in great numbers while
moving or gathering .
The old timers say they were a evil from way back ! Being from the dark ages to were made men cross gens and did
create test tube babies of mixtures between animals and man. The refers to such actions in the old testament and breeding
people with animals to were they were both to be put to death and the offspring too!
If such activities did taken place and the creation was turned lose into the forest to live,then as they breeded into different family groups to which would migrate to other areas and to continue with this activities to were they had even crossed oceans
or narrow land paths into other sections of the world,could of spread them abroad worldwide.
Remeber during the mad scenctist days when there was grossly evil,these men did create extreme issues of concern to
the rest of the world during this time and people was banned from towns according to history,they can't all be legons without facts or true elements.
And to say if they were part man with thinking and problem solving ability what to say they didn't place there dead into the ground after seeing us! To which leaded by example for them .
Who really knows Hunter Jim
When I think of Bigfoot "migration", I prefer the Cromagnon, or Neaderthal, perspective. Of a small clan of a few families, moving dependant on the environment and their successful existance within an area. The term migration, can't really be used in this context, as in other animals that travel for seasons, over vast areas, for food or breeding times. It also depends on the "culture" of the groups, the learned and instinctual survival techniques passed down for generations, within their geographical area. Movement of groups in the California/Oregon, would be different than in deep Canada, actic zones. Ancient man had migration zones, dependant on seasons, higher or lower elevations etc, but rarely went beyond their inherited areas, unless run out of them by larger clans, or environmental problems. Why leave what works for you?
Genetic differnces can be seen in some of the sightings, hair color, size, aggression levels, curiousity levels. This tends to show a set movement area, within their cultural limits, with changes in their dna expressions coming from their new environments. Loose males, as in other species, may be run off, and move into new areas, steal a female, or kill a lead male, start their own clan, etc.. Speculation there, but, the ancient human, or even the chimp clan setup seems most plausible.
Genetic differnces can be seen in some of the sightings, hair color, size, aggression levels, curiousity levels. This tends to show a set movement area, within their cultural limits, with changes in their dna expressions coming from their new environments. Loose males, as in other species, may be run off, and move into new areas, steal a female, or kill a lead male, start their own clan, etc.. Speculation there, but, the ancient human, or even the chimp clan setup seems most plausible.
Wabgftr, good to hear from you!
In one of the BF televised shows (MQ, Giganto, or one of the other ones) Dr. Estaban Sarmiento was interviewed and showed a map of Colorado with sightings color coded based upon the season. If memory serves me, I believe he said that as the seasons changed so did the frequency of sightings, year after year, indicating the possibility of migratory activity.
I would agree with a zonal nomadism, with repeated visits to the same areas in certain seasons for available sustenance (as long as that environment remains intact), if a circuit like this is not dependent on weather, would it truly be considered migration though?
Jeff Meldrum learned a hard lesson about migration, with his last trip to Canada. Spending thousands of dollars, and several weeks of setup, only to get nothing. Then discovering sightings many miles southeast, where the blueberries were ripening. They travel with the seasons and food supply. Regional seasonal access to fruits and such do have an effect, and should be mapped out, before spending large amounts of time and money on a hunt.
I have had more than a little spare time lately due to a knee surgery and after reading this thread and some similiar ones I experimented with some rudimentary mapping techniques. I am currently playing around with some various scenarios and data compilations based solely on the BFRO sightings database. (If there is another database available elsewhere I would apreciate a link) Just from initial results I am having a difficult time patterning any sort of migration or even a solid seasonal correlation. I have since began prioritizing the data on the basis of type of encounter as provided by the data. Early results (about 50% complete of sightings in the last 20 years) currently show no clear patterns either.
I may be going about this the wrong way, anybody got ideas? Where did previous researchers draw their conclusions, esp. the ones mentioning a finite number of the BF currently thought to be in N America? Is it considered commoon knowledge that BF are social animals and reside in some sort of group? I can find info that suggest both and would also ask whether those who support the group theory consider this a permanent arrangement or based something like available food, family orientation, breeding opportunity, etc.? Just a guess, but the impact of a group vs that of a single individual on an environment and whatever the BF consume wpould lead me to believe they would be forced to move to new habitats in order to survive. Whereas, maybe a sole BF could exist within a more confined locale as that may allow time for the area to replenish itself.
Whether or not BF are solitary or group animals may be a big factor in determining whether or not there is a definate pattern of migration or relocation. Maybe if such a pattern could be identified, it would narrow the scope of research to an extent that would yield some conclusive evidence? Last question...what does one call a group of BF if they do indeed exist this way? A gaggle? A flock? A pod? A herd? I can't even remember what they call gorillas and chimps so I am grasping at straws.
I may be going about this the wrong way, anybody got ideas? Where did previous researchers draw their conclusions, esp. the ones mentioning a finite number of the BF currently thought to be in N America? Is it considered commoon knowledge that BF are social animals and reside in some sort of group? I can find info that suggest both and would also ask whether those who support the group theory consider this a permanent arrangement or based something like available food, family orientation, breeding opportunity, etc.? Just a guess, but the impact of a group vs that of a single individual on an environment and whatever the BF consume wpould lead me to believe they would be forced to move to new habitats in order to survive. Whereas, maybe a sole BF could exist within a more confined locale as that may allow time for the area to replenish itself.
Whether or not BF are solitary or group animals may be a big factor in determining whether or not there is a definate pattern of migration or relocation. Maybe if such a pattern could be identified, it would narrow the scope of research to an extent that would yield some conclusive evidence? Last question...what does one call a group of BF if they do indeed exist this way? A gaggle? A flock? A pod? A herd? I can't even remember what they call gorillas and chimps so I am grasping at straws.
a tribe, of course.
I agree with bipedalist, it is logical to think that there is zonal nomadism, or what you might call "following the food supply." I don't think weather has much to do with it given the huge range of localities sightings occur in. There might be an elevation movement, same as deer do, down in the winter, up in the summer, where there are large elevation changes. And of course there is the possibility that males travel around and "service" large areas of relatively stable female-dominant small family units. There certainly seems to be a sexual dimorphism evident, which makes you think there is fierce competition for females (favoring the development of the biggest and best males over time). It may not be a hard and fast rule, however, just like in humans, where in some areas of the world the harem system or co-wives system predominates, and in others the monogamous (or somewhat so) system predominates. There are some sightings of apparently monogamous family units, but many more sightings of a lone male or lone female, sometimes with one or two young ones. It probably to some extent depends on population density, resource availability and culture.
I agree with bipedalist, it is logical to think that there is zonal nomadism, or what you might call "following the food supply." I don't think weather has much to do with it given the huge range of localities sightings occur in. There might be an elevation movement, same as deer do, down in the winter, up in the summer, where there are large elevation changes. And of course there is the possibility that males travel around and "service" large areas of relatively stable female-dominant small family units. There certainly seems to be a sexual dimorphism evident, which makes you think there is fierce competition for females (favoring the development of the biggest and best males over time). It may not be a hard and fast rule, however, just like in humans, where in some areas of the world the harem system or co-wives system predominates, and in others the monogamous (or somewhat so) system predominates. There are some sightings of apparently monogamous family units, but many more sightings of a lone male or lone female, sometimes with one or two young ones. It probably to some extent depends on population density, resource availability and culture.
I really don't see how most of them could survive and not migrate... to some degree at least...
Evidence... now you see them, now you don't...
Migration... according to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary :
mi·grate
1 : to move from one country, place, or locality to another
2 : to pass usually periodically from one region or climate to another for feeding or breeding
3 : to change position in an organism or substance <filarial worms migrate within the human body>
Evidence... now you see them, now you don't...
Migration... according to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary :
mi·grate
1 : to move from one country, place, or locality to another
2 : to pass usually periodically from one region or climate to another for feeding or breeding
3 : to change position in an organism or substance <filarial worms migrate within the human body>
Even if you map it it's hard to see anything definitive. Here's the CA/OR border that someone was talking about earlier. The sightings (I've lumped all types) are colored and labeled by month.
Link to Map
Link to Map
Those dots may tell us more about where people might be found in that certain area then Bigfoot. I would try and connect the dots in to circles of logical size, a size I might think a Bigfoot might find suitable for a home range and then head for the center of it, where there are no red or yellow dots. You see I believe that most sightings and track finds are:
My idea of Bigfoot research is about looking at the collected data. Evaluating its worth. Forming a theory and then experimenting to try and nullify it. I say this because of the nature of the beast. It would be easier to nullify the theory then to prove it at first. It helps weedle down the hay pile your searching through. Remember that I also think these creatures are not that numerous. My version of your map doesn't place as much enphasis on exactr places where sightings and tracks occur but as to where they occur in relationship to others and natural boundaries, like with watersheds.
Reposting your map then would look something like this. I would further clarify things on it for myself but I was trying to illustrate my process... not define it.
- A mistake on the part of the animal. It didn't intend to be see. Maybe heard, as a warning, but not seen. It didn't want to get invaded by another primate. It doesn't want to share it's resources and it certainly doesn't feel safe around strange creatures that can manipulate the land around them. Tracks may be just a warning to others. They may be very aware of making tracks and avoid doing so except when surprised and exiting an area quickly.
- Proving out that similar mammals (Bigfoot and Humans) would most likely compete for resources in a given area. In this case it could be along a road that penetrates through the habitat or a river that has excellent cool water and fish. Direct competition would seek an equilibrium along each of the mammals home range boundaries.
- Are clues to a home range. The core in the center would not be used if it too had shared boundaries with humans.
- Telling us that for the most part, Bigfoot migrates from hot to cold, food rich to food poor, mate rich to mate poor. This could mean that traveling from one home range to another would suffice. A female and male home range could exist side by side. This could also mean that migration for the most part is vertical. Go higher and it gets cooler and is a different season for certain resources. Traveling great migratory or even meandering distances are for herd animals or ones that fly.
My idea of Bigfoot research is about looking at the collected data. Evaluating its worth. Forming a theory and then experimenting to try and nullify it. I say this because of the nature of the beast. It would be easier to nullify the theory then to prove it at first. It helps weedle down the hay pile your searching through. Remember that I also think these creatures are not that numerous. My version of your map doesn't place as much enphasis on exactr places where sightings and tracks occur but as to where they occur in relationship to others and natural boundaries, like with watersheds.
Reposting your map then would look something like this. I would further clarify things on it for myself but I was trying to illustrate my process... not define it.
Great replys! I live very near BFRO report #1685. I also have a great view of the ridge area of the reported sighting. I thought I heard vocals coming from that same ridge in May of 2005 when building my house. Always wondered if there was a route through there. The land is privately owned and requires a pass to access and you must be out by dark. DDA, are your population estimates lower or high than that of Dr. Krantz?
QUOTE(Elder @ Dec 17 2008, 08:19 PM)
Great replys! I live very near BFRO report #1685. I also have a great view of the ridge area of the reported sighting. I thought I heard vocals coming from that same ridge in May of 2005 when building my house. Always wondered if there was a route through there. The land is privately owned and requires a pass to access and you must be out by dark. DDA, are your population estimates lower or high than that of Dr. Krantz?
I would leave that to him. I haven't really looked on detailed maps of North America to see, just Washington mostly.
I have always felt that these creatures are nomadtic in their nature maybe moving for food, shelter, weather conditions and out side pressure such as hunting seasons. Reproduction could also factor into their movements from one location to another.
The thing I wonder is are there some type of pattern we could pickup on? Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement. It seems that the area I’m in I observe signs that there my be activity and then a few weeks later nothing.
Just thinking out loud.
The thing I wonder is are there some type of pattern we could pickup on? Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement. It seems that the area I’m in I observe signs that there my be activity and then a few weeks later nothing.
Just thinking out loud.
Excellent thought provoking question PEPPERS…
Is there some type of pattern we could pickup on?
I think that would require years of research in a given area to recognize a pattern… the larger the area the animal has at its disposal, the more difficult that task would be… And if you accept as a given the animals do not wish to be discovered, it may be “programmed” in the animal not to present any sort of discernable pattern…
Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement?
As you suggest, moving for food, shelter, weather conditions and outside pressure such as hunting seasons are probably great starting points for consideration… and as dda suggests, mating is probably a huge consideration…
Perhaps another consideration may be any type of human activity, whether it is due to hunting, fishing, hiking, etc… or… perhaps even bigfoot research…
I remember reading an article regarding “constructing” a deer hunting area on private land. This article discussed the need for all aspects of a deer herd's needs… things like food plots, water resources; adequate cover near each of those, as well as cover to and from their bedding areas…
The article also discussed the absolute necessity for a “sanctuary area” which contained at least some of the resources already mentioned… It went on to explain the importance of this sacred area… This area is where the deer feels safe… in which it could rely to raise their young without fear of intrusion… by humans at least…
The article explained how, if you were to attempt to construct such an area on your property, you should create a clear area in the center in which the sunlight could penetrate and allow natural feed to flourish… but after that, never, ever enter that area again… for if you do, the area is no longer considered to be a sanctuary, and the deer will leave… not to return until subsequent generations…
Perhaps we might draw some correlations between deer behavior and sasquatch behavior… I wonder… maybe…
But… if this sanctuary theory holds true for Sas, then the type of research which requires deep penetration into the wilderness may, in and of itself, be a cause of movement, migration… whatever you wish to call it… and it may cause a derivation from their natural habits…
Questions trigger research… research triggers questions… and the two may not cross paths again for generations… except by happenstance…
So… if all this is true… Sas may have all but lost any natural behavioral patterns present for hundreds or even thousands of years… and if Sas is as sentient as I suspect, is it no wonder they throw rocks at us? Humans must be one huge pain in the butt to them…
Is there some type of pattern we could pickup on?
I think that would require years of research in a given area to recognize a pattern… the larger the area the animal has at its disposal, the more difficult that task would be… And if you accept as a given the animals do not wish to be discovered, it may be “programmed” in the animal not to present any sort of discernable pattern…
Why do they move from one point to another and what may trigger this movement?
As you suggest, moving for food, shelter, weather conditions and outside pressure such as hunting seasons are probably great starting points for consideration… and as dda suggests, mating is probably a huge consideration…
Perhaps another consideration may be any type of human activity, whether it is due to hunting, fishing, hiking, etc… or… perhaps even bigfoot research…
I remember reading an article regarding “constructing” a deer hunting area on private land. This article discussed the need for all aspects of a deer herd's needs… things like food plots, water resources; adequate cover near each of those, as well as cover to and from their bedding areas…
The article also discussed the absolute necessity for a “sanctuary area” which contained at least some of the resources already mentioned… It went on to explain the importance of this sacred area… This area is where the deer feels safe… in which it could rely to raise their young without fear of intrusion… by humans at least…
The article explained how, if you were to attempt to construct such an area on your property, you should create a clear area in the center in which the sunlight could penetrate and allow natural feed to flourish… but after that, never, ever enter that area again… for if you do, the area is no longer considered to be a sanctuary, and the deer will leave… not to return until subsequent generations…
Perhaps we might draw some correlations between deer behavior and sasquatch behavior… I wonder… maybe…
But… if this sanctuary theory holds true for Sas, then the type of research which requires deep penetration into the wilderness may, in and of itself, be a cause of movement, migration… whatever you wish to call it… and it may cause a derivation from their natural habits…
Questions trigger research… research triggers questions… and the two may not cross paths again for generations… except by happenstance…
So… if all this is true… Sas may have all but lost any natural behavioral patterns present for hundreds or even thousands of years… and if Sas is as sentient as I suspect, is it no wonder they throw rocks at us? Humans must be one huge pain in the butt to them…
Exactly RB.
The home range core area is a problem waiting to be solved. How to monitor it without disturbance. Dress up to look like the animal? Install remote monitoring devices dropped by air? Long range optics? Should research avoid the core in hopes of maintaining their prescence and just concentrate the effort on the boundaries? This might establish an uncommunicated buffer zone that the animal will recognize over time and accept.
I think that racing in to areas suspected as Bigfoots core area may just be counterproductive in many cases. In the past I have hinted at abandoned structures in areas that had orchards at one time that have gone wild. These sites maybe a great place to monitor with cameras.
I favor camera blinds versus searching by foot all the terrain one can cover in hopes of seeing one or finding a track. It is OK to do this on the boundaries of an area, but it is great to build a tree house blind and set up observation from there.
Using a wide angle lens on a tripod in a tree with a zigview will capture all the movement in a scene. So will time lapse with still or video, but it won't alert you in realtime.
Many researchers only have limited time and resources and look towards cutting corners. Wildlife photographers don't sit in blinds for nothing.
The home range core area is a problem waiting to be solved. How to monitor it without disturbance. Dress up to look like the animal? Install remote monitoring devices dropped by air? Long range optics? Should research avoid the core in hopes of maintaining their prescence and just concentrate the effort on the boundaries? This might establish an uncommunicated buffer zone that the animal will recognize over time and accept.
I think that racing in to areas suspected as Bigfoots core area may just be counterproductive in many cases. In the past I have hinted at abandoned structures in areas that had orchards at one time that have gone wild. These sites maybe a great place to monitor with cameras.
I favor camera blinds versus searching by foot all the terrain one can cover in hopes of seeing one or finding a track. It is OK to do this on the boundaries of an area, but it is great to build a tree house blind and set up observation from there.
Using a wide angle lens on a tripod in a tree with a zigview will capture all the movement in a scene. So will time lapse with still or video, but it won't alert you in realtime.
Many researchers only have limited time and resources and look towards cutting corners. Wildlife photographers don't sit in blinds for nothing.
Regardless of what people think of the two Monsterquest episodes about Snelgrove Lake I found their observation of blueberry season to be very interesting. In the first episode, blueberries were in season and they had "activity" whereas in episode two the blueberry season was late and the "activity" was miles away where they were in season.
I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.
I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.
Yep… I agree… which is one reason Kathy and I have been plotting areas of potential food sources, such as berries, for the past several seasons…
Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…
For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…
Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…
Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…
So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot”… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.”… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…
If we decide there is no way these animals will travel more than a few miles… say, no more than 50 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise…
If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…
So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…
Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.” Something to think about…
Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…
For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…
Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…
Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…
So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot”… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.”… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…
If we decide there is no way these animals will travel more than a few miles… say, no more than 50 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise…
If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…
So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…
Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.” Something to think about…
QUOTE(wiiawiwb @ Dec 19 2008, 06:43 PM)
Regardless of what people think of the two Monsterquest episodes about Snelgrove Lake I found their observation of blueberry season to be very interesting. In the first episode, blueberries were in season and they had "activity" whereas in episode two the blueberry season was late and the "activity" was miles away where they were in season.
I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.
I think those type of Sherlock Holmes insights make play a vital role in identifying the underlying reason(s) for movement of BF from place to place. If you can predict movement you would greatly increase your odds of discovery.
Hey play William Rowe......... hide in a blueberry bush all night waiting for a squatch, good luck!
QUOTE(RB @ Dec 19 2008, 08:03 PM)
Yep… I agree… which is one reason Kathy and I have been plotting areas of potential food sources, such as berries, for the past several seasons…
Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…
For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…
Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…
Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…
So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot”… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.”… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…
If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…
So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…
Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.” Something to think about…
Unfortunately, there are many variables which factor into it… such as rainfall, temperatures and sunlight… And while you would suspect these factors to remain somewhat constant, we have found they are not…
For instance, this year we had an unusual amount of large forest fires in the Sierra Nevada mountains (in our main study area anyway) than normal… which, among other suspected factors, seemed to affect the berry production and ripening processes this year…
Abnormally low food supplies, along with the inordinate amount of smoke in the air seemed to diminish activity… this may be reflected in the almost complete absence of sighting reports in the Sierras this year…
Now, this may be a bigger problem in the Sierras than in other portions of the Pacific Northwest, as we have less rainfall down here…
So… what can we glean from this information? Well… if we start with the premise my very good friend, Cliff Barackman, so aptly stated when I interviewed him earlier this year on “Let’s Talk Bigfoot”… “I believe we wholly underestimate these creatures.”… then we may begin to understand we know almost nothing about their behavior, or their potential behavior… and if that is the case, then we must greatly broaden our scope of research…
If we decide there is no way they will travel more than 100 miles in any given direction… we must re-evaluate that premise as well…
So how far should we imagine Sas might travel to reach Shang-rah-la? I think the answer may be… as far as necessary…
Abraham Lincoln was once asked by reporter (referring to his long legs)… how long he believed a man’s legs should be… Mr. Lincoln’s answer was something like… “As long as necessary to reach the floor.” Something to think about…
Well what can I say I like blueberries, so maybe I'll try a stake out. Also, RB here is another quote from Lincoln I like....of course it was in regard to the War Between the States but ......
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. See in parallels with the current financial meltdown....NOT POLITICAL, NOT POLITICAL Along with the "save our country" part, which I think we need to do btw, I would also profer "find the BigMan" as an appropo adjunct.
Good thoughts. Forest fires have usually been mentioned only as something that would make such an animal move away from an area but in fact they can make the opposite happen as well. It wont be but a year or two when a burned out area becomes a great area for wildlife to visit for food.
In Washington, the Forest Service has records of fires and each year a booklet is published as to where, when and to what extent they happened. Putting these on a time line wouldn't be very useful unless localized and even then the event is probably as rare as a major storm, so how important is it? But gathering all of this type of information is not a waste. I think that a relational database with this and other types of information in it will eventually get made and then we will be able to see something come out that will help.
Who knows... in the future we might find out that a significant amount of sightings occur after X amount of years of a major burn given the same habitat. Not only is the area more clear of underbrush so animals can be seen easier but rainfall isn't absorbed as much and runoff makes the streams swell earlier and more often. After reaching 7 cubic feet per minute, Salmon start upstream sooner and berries bloom after being dispersed by a more populous bird and bear usage.
There are many different types of migration, scientists classified them so as to better describe the observed movement patterns. What makes each of them work is not only the environment but the life cycle of each and every animal. Anybody that starts up a Bigfoot study site needs to identify the contained wildlife and edible fauna, locate likely shelter and juvenile raising locations, observe temperature deltas during the year and at elevation, record human influences and storms as well as investigate track finds, sighting reports, identify good locations for wildlife observation and tracking. Networking with locals that live along the designated boundaries of your study area is also very important. Give out contact information to local businesses and authorities or putting up displays can help garner people to watch out or report what they have seen or heard.
In my area 200 square miles is almost too much to handle. 200 square miles of mountainous terrain is actually more than it sounds. 20 x 20 miles of up and down living space. Even with all the FS roads and trails you could not cover it all adequately in a month. This is where "Giganto: The Real King Kong" was filmed. I can not cover it with a helicopter unless above 5,000 feet, and that is just too high to really get a good look. Over the years you work out a plan, team up with others and do get to cover a good portion of the area, but by that time tracks can be weeks old.
In Washington, the Forest Service has records of fires and each year a booklet is published as to where, when and to what extent they happened. Putting these on a time line wouldn't be very useful unless localized and even then the event is probably as rare as a major storm, so how important is it? But gathering all of this type of information is not a waste. I think that a relational database with this and other types of information in it will eventually get made and then we will be able to see something come out that will help.
Who knows... in the future we might find out that a significant amount of sightings occur after X amount of years of a major burn given the same habitat. Not only is the area more clear of underbrush so animals can be seen easier but rainfall isn't absorbed as much and runoff makes the streams swell earlier and more often. After reaching 7 cubic feet per minute, Salmon start upstream sooner and berries bloom after being dispersed by a more populous bird and bear usage.
There are many different types of migration, scientists classified them so as to better describe the observed movement patterns. What makes each of them work is not only the environment but the life cycle of each and every animal. Anybody that starts up a Bigfoot study site needs to identify the contained wildlife and edible fauna, locate likely shelter and juvenile raising locations, observe temperature deltas during the year and at elevation, record human influences and storms as well as investigate track finds, sighting reports, identify good locations for wildlife observation and tracking. Networking with locals that live along the designated boundaries of your study area is also very important. Give out contact information to local businesses and authorities or putting up displays can help garner people to watch out or report what they have seen or heard.
In my area 200 square miles is almost too much to handle. 200 square miles of mountainous terrain is actually more than it sounds. 20 x 20 miles of up and down living space. Even with all the FS roads and trails you could not cover it all adequately in a month. This is where "Giganto: The Real King Kong" was filmed. I can not cover it with a helicopter unless above 5,000 feet, and that is just too high to really get a good look. Over the years you work out a plan, team up with others and do get to cover a good portion of the area, but by that time tracks can be weeks old.
I have been working on a paper for years that I just can't seem to finish, but essentially, I have overlaid what I know about Native American landuse (ie., archaeological site locations), deer herd movement, plant maturation and sighting reports (that RB and I have personally investigated) and there is a definite correlation. I haven't factored in fish but I rightfully should. However, fire is clearly a HUGE factor that shouldn't be overlooked....
RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??
RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??
The fact that there has been sightings in almost every corner of North America is evidence enough that they migrate, if in fact, they do exisit of course.
I think we can all agree that there is a lot of guess work yet to be done on projecting the movements of a creature that is always on the move. I have a herd of elk that moves through my property and into the private forest land adjacent to mine. I mark there movements on a calender to see if I can guess when they might return. I found that I can only narrow it down to within a weeks window. Now if there was only 1 elk in the same 300 acres I would probably never see it come through my property. That elk would only have to bypass its previous track route by 10 feet and I would miss its visit. I dont think that a single animal "has" to travel long distances for the reason of eluding us. I rather think that a bf travels to another area out of boredom with its current surroundings or to visit another of its kind.
When starting this thread I wondered if a bigfoot might travel from Mt, Baker to Mt. St. Helens and then maybe to another land mark during the life of its exsistance, never traveling the same path twice as long as it was alive. I also was hoping that maybe some track data would support that. Since it is estimated that a low number, just above a breeding population, exsist. Then the odds of duplicate tracks from 1 individual goes up. Who knows?? Unfortunatley track finds are as rare as sightings. Hairyman, looking forward to that book you are writing. DDA, any books in the works from you?
RB I know a few humans I'd like to throw rocks at myself!!!!!
I think there is some pattern I don't think it is obvious, but the trigger maybe a combinations of things. Most animals are creatures of habit. I see a ten point buck you can just abut set your clock when he goes to a thick and beds down every day. As far a a pattern for Bf if I knew that I would be out taking pictures and selling them to the highest bidder. I agree patience and time are needed to figure that out.
I had this one incident where a lady reported that someone was sneaking to her house and throwing rocks at her trailer. I talked to her landlord on putting cameras to catch who was doing this. He did not want to be bothered because he advised the woman was a little loony. I took it at that after checking for tracks and other evidence and found none. I thought maybe limbs or something was falling from trees she assured me it was rocks being thrown.
Then about a year later I spoke with her again and she advised that she was throwing table scraps out into the woods and that the rocks started when she quit throwing the scraps into the woods, she quit because it was attracting coons and a radio show advised that you should not do that because of an out break of rabies. She lived about a mile up a rough road and it did not make sense for someone to walk that far just to chuck a few rocks.
A mad BF throwing rocks because she stopped the free hand outs, a possibility. She did not reveal this to me at that time.
I think there is some pattern I don't think it is obvious, but the trigger maybe a combinations of things. Most animals are creatures of habit. I see a ten point buck you can just abut set your clock when he goes to a thick and beds down every day. As far a a pattern for Bf if I knew that I would be out taking pictures and selling them to the highest bidder. I agree patience and time are needed to figure that out.
I had this one incident where a lady reported that someone was sneaking to her house and throwing rocks at her trailer. I talked to her landlord on putting cameras to catch who was doing this. He did not want to be bothered because he advised the woman was a little loony. I took it at that after checking for tracks and other evidence and found none. I thought maybe limbs or something was falling from trees she assured me it was rocks being thrown.
Then about a year later I spoke with her again and she advised that she was throwing table scraps out into the woods and that the rocks started when she quit throwing the scraps into the woods, she quit because it was attracting coons and a radio show advised that you should not do that because of an out break of rabies. She lived about a mile up a rough road and it did not make sense for someone to walk that far just to chuck a few rocks.
A mad BF throwing rocks because she stopped the free hand outs, a possibility. She did not reveal this to me at that time.
Here are the different types of Migration I spoke about. I think they could also be used in combinations at certain points:
- "Seasonal migration
is migration that corresponds with the change in seasons. Most migration fall within this category. Many altitudinal, longitudinal, latitudinal, and reproductive migrations take place when the seasons change. (DDA Note: Behavior has to be looked at for it's survival advantages, short and long term. This type of behavior has to be monitored for any predictive capabilities. Hunters of game animals monitor weather in order to predict the behavior and take advantage of it.) - Latitudinal migration
is the movement of animals north and south. The geese flying south for the winter is one of the most recognizable examples of latitudinal migration. By moving north and south, animals are changing their climate. In the northern hemisphere, the winters are colder as you move north and warmer as you move south. On the other hand, summers in the north can be rich in food, especially in the far north where summers are short, but the days are very long.(DDA Note: I am hard pressed in naming anything but birds that move in this manner due to a seasonal temperature. You could look at larger mammals moving north and south looking for water, shelter and such.)
- Altitudinal migration
is the movement of animals up and down major land features such as mountains. While food may be plentiful in alpine meadows in summer, the winters will be colder and have more snow as you move higher up. Many animals take advantage of the summers, and then move to lower more moderate elevations during the winter. (DDA Note: I think the behavior is one that Bigfoot uses regularly. The reason it isn't very predictable is may be that a combination of other types of migration is involved. Maybe they do regularly go up and down the mountains each year but not in the same area.)
- Reproductive migration
is the movement of animals to bear young. The area may be safer for the young because of fewer predators or more shelter from predators. In other cases, the area is safer because the animal requires a different type of habitat when it is young than when it is older. (DDA Note: We also need to understand that resource requirements may be different between male and females of the species. We know that home ranges of non herd mammals vary in size, shape and seasonal dilation.)
- Nomadic migration
is the movement of animals not between known areas, but it looks to us more like wandering. Grazing animals will move across larger expanses as the grasses get eaten and they travel to greener pastures. (DDA Note: If researchers think that Bigfoot in the southern states are displaced animals from further north then it might be instructive to search out specific and documented reasons for migration to the south. This years hard winter up north may be just a reason.)
- Removal migration
is the migration of animals that don't come back. This can be when resources such as food, water or shelter are no longer available to animals where they are. The environment can have changed, through fire, flooding, invasive plant species or human development or other causes and the animals need to leave to survive. Another cause of removal migration is when the resources haven't changed, but the population gets too big, there are too many animals and many of them leave to find food, water and shelter elsewhere. Removal migration is what brought immigrants to America in the 1800s. (DDA Note: Maybe this is what has happened in those areas written about in the past as being hot beds of activity. Study sites need to be dynamic and change with information. Use positive and negative data for this.)
- Complete migration
is when virtually all members of the species leave their breeding range during the nonbreeding season. Many North American birds are complete migrants. Most complete migrants breeding in northern temperate and arctic areas (such as Alaska) of North America, Europe, and Asia. Complete migrants travel incredible distances, sometimes more than 15,000 miles (25,000 kilometers) per year. The wintering areas for most complete North American migrants are South and Central America, the Caribbean basin, and the southern most United States.
- Partial migration
The most common type of migration is partial migration. Partial migrant means that some, but not all, members of a species move away from their breeding grounds during the nonbreeding season. There is an overlap between breeding and nonbreeding ranges of the species. Species like Red-tailed Hawk, Herring Gull, and Golden Eagles are partial migrants over much of their North American range.
- Irruptive migration
Migrations that are not seasonally or geographically predictable are termed irruptive. Such migration may occur one year, but not again for many years. The distances and numbers of individuals involved are also less predictable than with complete or partial migrants. In some years, irruptions can be over long distances and involve many individuals, or they can be short and involve only a few."
Excellent reference there DDA... thanks!
Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):
Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):
QUOTE(nightwing @ Sep 5 2002, 09:02 PM)
This is an interesting topic!
Being from the Upper midwest myself, I often think that people from other parts of the country really don't understand just how bad winter can get up here.
Last year, in a single week in December we had nearly 90" of snow(yes, 90, as in nearly 8 feet!), and the temp hit -25 on 3 nights. And this was in one of the more "mild"(temperature-wise) areas, western Lower Michigan!
Further north(in the U.P., Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota), it gets even colder!, and in the case of the Upper Penisula, this deep cold comes with awesome ammounts of lake-effect snow, nearly 400" per year in some places.
The drastic severity of our winters causes wildlife to adapt, or perish.
Deer in the snowbelts off of Lake Superior and Lake Michigan often migrate south or east, vacating the area entirely in a real bad winter, so there is some precedent for seasonal migration of large animals in this area.
The wilderness areas of the Upper Midwest are just that, true wilderness on the order found elsware in the lower 48 only in a few areas of the PNW, and possibly, northern Main.
We are talking tracts of 40=50 miles with no roads worth mentioning, and almost no human habitation.
Which leads me to my idea on where sassy goes in the depth of a northern Lakes states winter...
Deer tend to "yard" in these deep wildernes areas just outside of the primary snowbelts, using vast, thick cedar and spruce swamps for this purpose.
Hundreds of square miles of roadless, difficult terrain, interspersed with deep cedar thickets. Lots of rock outcrops, millions of blowdowns in the swamps.
These large, nearly impenatrable areas would be a prime place for sasquatch to hang out, and pick off the occasional straggler and weak deer, as well as have constant on-hand access to the pine and cedar needles mentioned earlier in the thread.
Wolves and coyotes make good use of this tactic, and may even provide an easier source of meat(a couple of bigfoot could likely drive off a pack of wolves from a kill).
So, I do think bigfood migrates in our area, but I think it is for relatively short distances, just far enough to find one of the many isolated deer yards, and there they set up shop in some hidden nook or cranny, as far away from any likely human travel as you can get in the lower 48, and munch on vennison for the winter!
Sasquatch would leave very little in the way of evidence in such an area, as they would be traveling in and out of extremely tough terrain, and most evidence such as tracks would be destroyed or covered by the next snowfall, or more likely, by the constant churning of thousands of deer hooves.
Just a theory mind you, but since the wolves, coyotes, and even our rare mountain lions seem to do this, why not sasquatch?
I noticed earlier in the thread that the possible use of food caches and road-kill was mentioned.
The food cache idea is, I think, very valid in this instance. Deer and other food could easily be cached or saved for extended periods of time, possibly buried in the snow, placed in trees(there have been a few cases of dead deer being found high in trees in Michigan, which to me leaves only sasquatch and cougars as realisitc possibilities, both of which are not generaly accepted to be living here).
As to road kill, while I don't doubt that bigfoot will take "road pizza" if he finds it, I don't think it will be a major feature of his diet in the upper midwest. The reason is that roadkill drops drasticaly in winter for a couple of reasons. First, the movement and activity of most wildlife drops drasticaly in winter, reducing by an equal ammount the number of car-wildlife encounters.
Secondly, in many of the most "weather impaired" areas, there is little in the way of roads or traffic anyway!
When the only road for 40 miles is a few logging two-tracks, which are covered in 5 feet of snow, autos just are not an option. While some roads remain open to logging vehicles and snowmowbiles, these account for very few roadkills.
And, the main roads that do get traveled, have reduced numbers of kills for the previous reasons, so all in all, there just aint' much winter meat to be had this way!
Now, certainly the "wilderness" aspect is not universal up here, many areas with brutal weather are indeed quite built up(Duluth, Marquette, just to name a couple), but all in all, much of this area really is not subject to roadkill of the type found in areas of greater general habitation.
Like the PNW, this is the real deal, true back country, and I think anything living here must rely on natural means to subsist.
Thats why I think, if bigfoot really does move seasonaly, they may well move into the deer yard areas because this is where the greatest concentration of food, with the least likelyhood of human encounters, is found.
Being from the Upper midwest myself, I often think that people from other parts of the country really don't understand just how bad winter can get up here.
Last year, in a single week in December we had nearly 90" of snow(yes, 90, as in nearly 8 feet!), and the temp hit -25 on 3 nights. And this was in one of the more "mild"(temperature-wise) areas, western Lower Michigan!
Further north(in the U.P., Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota), it gets even colder!, and in the case of the Upper Penisula, this deep cold comes with awesome ammounts of lake-effect snow, nearly 400" per year in some places.
The drastic severity of our winters causes wildlife to adapt, or perish.
Deer in the snowbelts off of Lake Superior and Lake Michigan often migrate south or east, vacating the area entirely in a real bad winter, so there is some precedent for seasonal migration of large animals in this area.
The wilderness areas of the Upper Midwest are just that, true wilderness on the order found elsware in the lower 48 only in a few areas of the PNW, and possibly, northern Main.
We are talking tracts of 40=50 miles with no roads worth mentioning, and almost no human habitation.
Which leads me to my idea on where sassy goes in the depth of a northern Lakes states winter...
Deer tend to "yard" in these deep wildernes areas just outside of the primary snowbelts, using vast, thick cedar and spruce swamps for this purpose.
Hundreds of square miles of roadless, difficult terrain, interspersed with deep cedar thickets. Lots of rock outcrops, millions of blowdowns in the swamps.
These large, nearly impenatrable areas would be a prime place for sasquatch to hang out, and pick off the occasional straggler and weak deer, as well as have constant on-hand access to the pine and cedar needles mentioned earlier in the thread.
Wolves and coyotes make good use of this tactic, and may even provide an easier source of meat(a couple of bigfoot could likely drive off a pack of wolves from a kill).
So, I do think bigfood migrates in our area, but I think it is for relatively short distances, just far enough to find one of the many isolated deer yards, and there they set up shop in some hidden nook or cranny, as far away from any likely human travel as you can get in the lower 48, and munch on vennison for the winter!
Sasquatch would leave very little in the way of evidence in such an area, as they would be traveling in and out of extremely tough terrain, and most evidence such as tracks would be destroyed or covered by the next snowfall, or more likely, by the constant churning of thousands of deer hooves.
Just a theory mind you, but since the wolves, coyotes, and even our rare mountain lions seem to do this, why not sasquatch?
I noticed earlier in the thread that the possible use of food caches and road-kill was mentioned.
The food cache idea is, I think, very valid in this instance. Deer and other food could easily be cached or saved for extended periods of time, possibly buried in the snow, placed in trees(there have been a few cases of dead deer being found high in trees in Michigan, which to me leaves only sasquatch and cougars as realisitc possibilities, both of which are not generaly accepted to be living here).
As to road kill, while I don't doubt that bigfoot will take "road pizza" if he finds it, I don't think it will be a major feature of his diet in the upper midwest. The reason is that roadkill drops drasticaly in winter for a couple of reasons. First, the movement and activity of most wildlife drops drasticaly in winter, reducing by an equal ammount the number of car-wildlife encounters.
Secondly, in many of the most "weather impaired" areas, there is little in the way of roads or traffic anyway!
When the only road for 40 miles is a few logging two-tracks, which are covered in 5 feet of snow, autos just are not an option. While some roads remain open to logging vehicles and snowmowbiles, these account for very few roadkills.
And, the main roads that do get traveled, have reduced numbers of kills for the previous reasons, so all in all, there just aint' much winter meat to be had this way!
Now, certainly the "wilderness" aspect is not universal up here, many areas with brutal weather are indeed quite built up(Duluth, Marquette, just to name a couple), but all in all, much of this area really is not subject to roadkill of the type found in areas of greater general habitation.
Like the PNW, this is the real deal, true back country, and I think anything living here must rely on natural means to subsist.
Thats why I think, if bigfoot really does move seasonaly, they may well move into the deer yard areas because this is where the greatest concentration of food, with the least likelyhood of human encounters, is found.
Weather on the West coast is crappy right now. whats below Idaho and Montana?? could be warmer then here in Wa. state. just a thought. take care-
QUOTE(Hairy Man @ Dec 20 2008, 12:28 AM)
I have been working on a paper for years that I just can't seem to finish, but essentially, I have overlaid what I know about Native American landuse (ie., archaeological site locations), deer herd movement, plant maturation and sighting reports (that RB and I have personally investigated) and there is a definite correlation. I haven't factored in fish but I rightfully should. However, fire is clearly a HUGE factor that shouldn't be overlooked....
RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??
RB literally spent all spring, summer and fall (we're not officially in winter yet) in the field and although we had negative data, what we learned was amazing. The fires in the Sierra's and valley this spring and summer caused plant maturation to be set back a month and a half...I normally have tomatoes in June, but I had nothing until the middle of July. Thimbleberry, service berry, gooseberry, elderberry, etc. were all equally late in blooming and some didn't produce fruit before they died. RB saw no/little deer or bear in our usual areas that should have been "hot" at the times he was there. This tells us a lot - if sightings are random or made up, environmental variants shouldn't affect it - but yet not only did he not find any traces, no one else reported them either. How are lies affected by real environmental differences??
HM, that is really interesting what your hubby observed. There were some late season microclimate frosts around here and I noticed the death of the new folliage in certain areas but what really interested me was the retention of some of my favorite birds (various woodpeckers) long after their normal migration to the higher terrain. I still haven't quite figured it out but I have some theories. If it's not too much trouble, could you explain the relation between the lightning fires and the plant maturation? I noticed the same sort of thing and wondered if it was also affecting the birds. Was the incredibly dense smoke we had responsible for this?
Just curious. I live with an open eye and am incredibly curious. Thanks, Norcal
QUOTE(wabgftr @ Dec 22 2008, 11:21 PM)
Weather on the West coast is crappy right now. whats below Idaho and Montana?? could be warmer then here in Wa. state. just a thought. take care-
The one thing about crappy weather is humans don’t venture out in it too much. So extreme weather maybe advantageous for this creature.
According to Drovers Journal for cattle the comfort zone for cattle is in the mid 30’s of course that is variable due to moister, wind and etc. What may seem like extreme to us, maybe comfortable for BF.
QUOTE(norcal logger @ Dec 22 2008, 09:25 PM)
HM, that is really interesting what your hubby observed. There were some late season microclimate frosts around here and I noticed the death of the new folliage in certain areas but what really interested me was the retention of some of my favorite birds (various woodpeckers) long after their normal migration to the higher terrain. I still haven't quite figured it out but I have some theories. If it's not too much trouble, could you explain the relation between the lightning fires and the plant maturation? I noticed the same sort of thing and wondered if it was also affecting the birds. Was the incredibly dense smoke we had responsible for this?
Just curious. I live with an open eye and am incredibly curious. Thanks, Norcal
Just curious. I live with an open eye and am incredibly curious. Thanks, Norcal
Fire (be it natural or human caused) can put an enormous amount of smoke into the air and block sunlight from fully reaching the ground. Depending on the size of the fire or number of fires, there can be a significant amount of days with smoke in the air - not to mention that since smoke drifts, just because there isn't a fire within 50 miles of you doesn't mean there isn't an affect.
We had a lot of fires in NorCal this year. This caused snow to stay on the ground longer than normal and for plants not to get the amount of sunlight they needed to reach their maturation at their normal times (i.e., if it takes 90 days from seeding for a plant to produce berries, this year those plants took on average 30 days more and many produced nothing). This in turn causes animals who depend on those plants to change their patterns as well.
I was talking with several tribes the other day and they were all lamenting the poor acorn crop this year and how it may affect them next year.
QUOTE(RB @ Dec 22 2008, 11:12 PM)
Excellent reference there DDA... thanks!
Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):
Here's an awesome (old) post by nightwing regarding migration... (hope you don't mind nightwing):
Not at all RB!
Although, for some areas I may have to amend that(areas with less harsh winters, or just not as much snow). In those areas...my guess remains deep swamps, but pines and cedar may play a larger part then I had earlier banked on and deer yards less, or even much less. The carbohydrate/sugar aspect of evergreens is becoming more and more interesting to me.
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