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hopeful
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/apegenius/kanzi.html

The above link is to the NOVA website which contains an extremely interesting audio slide show about the Bonobo, Kanzi, who communicates with humans by "pointing to any of hundreds of symbols on lexigram keyboards."

Click on the link above and then click the "Launch Interactive" link to see the slide show.

From the NOVA website:
QUOTE
Kanzi the Bonobo
What would it be like to converse with a bonobo? According to primatologist Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, a lead scientist at the Great Ape Trust of Iowa, these apes cannot only understand language, but some of them can convey their thoughts and feelings to humans and to each other by pointing to any of hundreds of symbols on lexigram keyboards. Given her experience, Savage-Rumbaugh believes the cognitive gap between humans and bonobos is small enough that we can bridge it and form meaningful relationships with our great ape relatives. In this audio slide show, meet Kanzi, the Trust's alpha male, who has demonstrated an extraordinary ability to communicate on our terms.—Rima Chaddha



Pretty cool, huh? new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
bipedalist
QUOTE(hopeful @ Feb 28 2008, 08:08 PM) *
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/apegenius/kanzi.html

The above link is to the NOVA website which contains an extremely interesting audio slide show about the Bonobo, Kanzi, who communicates with humans by "pointing to any of hundreds of symbols on lexigram keyboards."

Click on the link above and then click the "Launch Interactive" link to see the slide show.

From the NOVA website:
Pretty cool, huh? new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif



Very interesting naturalistic method of learning, I have added the last great ape website as one of my favorites as a result of this post:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bonobos/
thanks for this thread
dogu4
Susan Savage-Rumbaugh gives an excellent 20 minute presentation on ape intelligence/culture at TED.com, and includes a fascinating clip of a bonobo creating and using a stone tool, and using a lighter to start a campfire, among other examples and makes a nice accompanying piece to the NOVA program.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76
RayG
'Communicates' seems to be a subjective term, and these talking apes are not nearly as fascinating when a closer look is taken.

From Aping Language, a skeptical analysis of the evidence for nonhuman primate language, by Clive Wynne:

QUOTE
Kanzi, concluded the Rumbaughs, “clearly processed semantic and syntactic features of each novel utterance.” In other words, here was a nonhuman ape who understood meaning and grammar. Descartes and Terrace were wrong. The grail of the ape language studies had been found.

When I first heard of Kanzi’s achievements I was very excited indeed. I really felt that our understanding of the nature of the world and our place in it as human beings had been altered by what this bonobo had done. But when I studied the complete report of what Kanzi had been asked to do and started going carefully through the six hundred and sixty commands he had been given and how he had responded to each one, my excitement changed to disappointment.

For a start Kanzi — like Nim before him — did not show the increase in sentence length that is typical of children learning language. In fact, at 1.15 symbols per sentence, Kanzi’s average utterance is even shorter than Nim’s. And it turns out that to complete many of the requests that were put to him Kanzi did not need to understand grammar. For example when Kanzi was asked to “Take the hat to the colony room” — which Kanzi did successfully — all he needed was some sense of “hat” and of “colony room.”14 A hat may be taken to a colony room, but a room cannot be brought to a hat. Successful completion of this instruction suggests an understanding of some vocabulary, but it is not in itself proof of grammatical comprehension. To test grammar what are needed are pairs of reversible commands like: “Dog bites man” and “Man bites dog.” Just knowing those three words — man, bites, and dog — is not enough to comprehend the difference between these two statements. For that difference to be understood grammar is crucial.

Of the 660 commands that Kanzi was given, a mere 21 formed pairs of the “man bites dog” “dog bites man” variety that constitute a critical test of grammatical comprehension. Savage-Rumbaugh and her colleagues reported that Kanzi responded accurately to 12 of these 21 pairs — a modest 57% correct. On closer inspection, however, it became clear to me that their method of coding Kanzi’s responses was unreasonably generous. To take one example: They commanded Kanzi, “Pour the juice in the egg.” Kanzi proceeded to pick up the bowl with the egg in it, sniff it, and shake it. They repeated the command three times — each time changing the wording slightly — before Kanzi did what they asked him to. They nonetheless scored his response as correct. When they asked Kanzi to “Pour some water on the raisins,” he held a jug of water over a lettuce. This was coded as correct. Kanzi’s first reaction to the request to pour milk into water was to stick a tomato in the water. When asked to chase Liz he remained seated; when asked again he touched Liz’s leg and she chased him. All of these were scored correct. When Kanzi was given the two commands, “Make the [toy] doggie bite the [toy] snake” and “Make the snake bite the doggie,” in both cases the snake ended up in the dog’s mouth but both responses were coded as correct. Re-scored to exclude these false positives, Kanzi achieves less than 30% correct.

Why be so nitpicky? The point here is not to deny Kanzi’s achievements — what other nonhuman can convey so much to his caregivers, or understand so much of what they say to him? — but to quantify them correctly. The point is not to see whether Kanzi does something involving toy dogs and snakes when asked to “Make the doggie bite the snake,” but to see if he understands grammar. And, on any assessment not tinted with rose-colored glasses, Kanzi just doesn’t get it...

Next time you see Kanzi or one of his kind on a television documentary, turn down the sound so you can just watch what he is doing without interpretation from the ape’s trainers. See if that really appears to be language.


I've still not heard of any linguists who support the assertion that Kanzi, Koko, Nim, Washoe, or any other 'talking ape' is utilizing "acquired language".

RayG
Saskeptic
Interesting.

I've been impressed by what I've seen from Alex the parrot, but Ray's post has me wondering if a lot of what we've been allowed to see is confirmation bias, i.e., the media portraying his successes but ignoring his failures, which for all we know might have been far more numerous.

The cool thing about Alex was that he would speak the word to answer the question, not just point to a symbol or perform some action. For example, he could be shown three blue objects and two green objects and asked "How many green?" He would then respond, in a creaky parrot-y voice, "two".

Maybe there's more controversy over Irene Pepperberg's work with Alex than I realized. They blame his death on some kind of cardiac problem (http://www.alexfoundation.org/), but maybe he was a victim of fowl play . . .
bipedalist
QUOTE(RayG @ Feb 28 2008, 09:27 PM) *
'Communicates' seems to be a subjective term, and these talking apes are not nearly as fascinating when a closer look is taken.

From Aping Language, a skeptical analysis of the evidence for nonhuman primate language, by Clive Wynne:
I've still not heard of any linguists who support the assertion that Kanzi, Koko, Nim, Washoe, or any other 'talking ape' is utilizing "acquired language".

RayG


Of the 660 commands that Kanzi was given, a mere 21 formed pairs of the “man bites dog” “dog bites man” variety that constitute a critical test of grammatical comprehension. Savage-Rumbaugh and her colleagues reported that Kanzi responded accurately to 12 of these 21 pairs — a modest 57% correct. On closer inspection, however, it became clear to me that their method of coding Kanzi’s responses was unreasonably generous. To take one example: They commanded Kanzi, “Pour the juice in the egg.” Kanzi proceeded to pick up the bowl with the egg in it, sniff it, and shake it. They repeated the command three times — each time changing the wording slightly — before Kanzi did what they asked him to. They nonetheless scored his response as correct. When they asked Kanzi to “Pour some water on the raisins,” he held a jug of water over a lettuce. This was coded as correct. Kanzi’s first reaction to the request to pour milk into water was to stick a tomato in the water. When asked to chase Liz he remained seated; when asked again he touched Liz’s leg and she chased him. All of these were scored correct. When Kanzi was given the two commands, “Make the [toy] doggie bite the [toy] snake” and “Make the snake bite the doggie,” in both cases the snake ended up in the dog’s mouth but both responses were coded as correct. Re-scored to exclude these false positives, Kanzi achieves less than 30% correct.

You couldn't get away with scoring an IQ test that way (unless you worked as a Russian psych. in an internment hospital) ...... scoring definitely needed to be broken down into
a reliability study of multiple raters?
micahn
I have watched a show about this subject on TV a couple of times over the years. One thing that always bugs me is the pictures they use. Why not use the right picture for the right thing ? For example use a picture of a dog for a dog not lets say a red square for a dog, No clue what they really use but you get my meaning.
If they are so smart that they can remember what goes with what then why not teach them the real things instead of something not real. That way maybe they could really learn to communicate what they see and feel about things. Lets say Kanzi wants a hot dog (something it seems to like a lot) It could point at a picture of a hot dog and we would really know that is what it is saying instead of look at that it pointed at a yellow circle for hot dog.
If they really want to impress people let them learn to spell out words now that would be cool.
OklahomaSquatch
Yeah but it sure would be interesting to know what they're thinking.
Apeman
There is certainly a fair amount of confusion and over-reaching with animal communications studies and, like everything else, we should all maintain some degree of skepticism when it comes to these reports. That said, I find little reason to doubt that we, as a species, continue to underestimate the mental abilities of animals up and down the spectrum. I think this is something very difficult to study and scientist and researchers are only beginning to find elegant ways of getting to the bottom of some of these intriguing questions.

In that context, there is an excellent article this month in National Geographic on this topic featuring a bevy of incredible animal subjects and their stories, including Alex and Kanzi. As a popular media article it surely lacks some of the skepticism we've voiced here, but I recommend it nonetheless.

NG Article

Portrait Photo Gallery

Apeman
Kismet
Very interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing this link. I have a friend who has a child with autism and their child communicates much more eagerly and effectively with others when the child uses a similar device (though their device has typed words on it too of course). Thanks again!
georgerm
Did many Bonobo survive the rebellion in the Congo?

When I tell my dog to get the monkey, it runs into the bedroom and gets its monkey doll. Is this communication since the words some how triggers my dog to act?
hopeful
QUOTE(georgerm @ Apr 3 2008, 07:58 PM) *
Did many Bonobo survive the rebellion in the Congo?

When I tell my dog to get the monkey, it runs into the bedroom and gets its monkey doll. Is this communication since the words some how triggers my dog to act?



Hi Georgerm. I would say that, yes, that is definitely communication.
RayG
Communication? Sure.

Language comprehension? Doubtful.

RayG
Former_Northwester
Yeah, there's a big difference between communication and language comprehension. So far it seems only humans have the brain structures for true language comprehension. I'm not sure why that bothers some people. We don't get upset that only elephants can lift entire trees but it bugs us that only humans can comprehend language.

Sort of on topic, this is a really interesting video (kinda long, 18 minutes) of a neuroscientist who was able to observe her own stroke (hemorrhage) on the left side of her brain, which left her at times fully conscious but unable to speak or understand language. Great video if you have the time. If we lose that particular brain function we are probably in a world more like most other animals in my opinion.

Video: Stroke of Insight
Mulder
Based on what I have seen and read, I find Koko the gorilla MUCH more impressive from a communicative standpoint than Kanzi the bonobo. She has CLEARLY demonstrated communicative understanding by initiating conversation involving abstract topics such as emotional responses.
RayG
CLEARLY demonstrated? I doubt it. Where and when did this clear demonstration take place? Surely you're not talking about the toothache incident? Which linguist agrees with you?

This transcript of an online chat session with Koko is certainly unimpressive from a language standpoint. First, it makes no sense. Secondly, her facilitator uses a lot of cueing, prompting, and liberal interpretation of anything Koko signs. Have you read that transcript?

The transcript seems to confirm she has a nipple fetish too. Further info on that can be found here.

Time magazine summed it up nicely when they commented that Koko's interpreter Penny Patterson was using "some pretty impressive logic to expand her simian friend's limited communication skills."

Patterson's ability to spin something out of nothing was more impressive than any language skills she claimed Koko had.

RayG
URSmilbymil
QUOTE(Mulder @ Apr 7 2008, 01:09 AM) *
Based on what I have seen and read, I find Koko the gorilla MUCH more impressive from a communicative standpoint than Kanzi the bonobo. She has CLEARLY demonstrated communicative understanding by initiating conversation involving abstract topics such as emotional responses.



I agree with you, Mulder. Kanzi doesn't seem to understand as much human language as Koko does. When her kitten got killed, she demonstrated grief and sadness.
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