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Maewolf
QUOTE(urbanshaman @ Feb 11 2008, 09:48 AM) *
I have read other reports of BF sighting in that area and I have no doubt that they are around there so I wouldn't be surprised if it were a BF. Not much else out there that acts that way. Any other animal that decided to charge at you like that is going to have a reason and would not have given up the chase so quickly if it thought that you might make a tasty meal.

Thanks for sharing your story !!!


Thats exactly what I had thought, why didnt it continue after us once we started running? I mean i was pretty damn happy that it hadnt, i may be skinny but im not, nor had i been at the time, in the best of shape, running that fast can only last so long lol

QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 11 2008, 11:56 AM) *
1. Did your sister ever get a look at, or say she heard whatever came crashing down the hill at you?

2. How far would you estimate the Charger was from you when you glimpsed it?

3. Did this happen right when you stood up from the squatting down by the creek?



1. She had told me after it had happened, after i asked, that she hadnt seen it, just heard it coming at us and she started running

2. It had to have been at least 5 feet away, the trail wasnt that large and i had glimpsed it just as it was coming down out of the brush and such, so it was just coming to the trail

3. No it didnt happen at that time. I had gotten up and told my sister to follow me basically, and thats when she had said that she didnt want to go anymore, that it didnt feel right, she wanted to go back. I convinced her it would be fine and just as i turned around and started walking those first few steps was when it happened.
Mystical Hominid
Welcome to BFF Maewolf!

Thanks for sharing your story and for all the replies. Very interesting indeed.

Good analysis once again by the folks. The critical analysis is what keeps the BFF on a straight and honest inquiry into the reality of sasquatch.
Maewolf
QUOTE(Mystical Hominid @ Feb 11 2008, 12:21 PM) *
Welcome to BFF Maewolf!

Thanks for sharing your story and for all the replies. Very interesting indeed.

Good analysis once again by the folks. The critical analysis is what keeps the BFF on a straight and honest inquiry into the reality of sasquatch.

Thank you! ^^
katbos
QUOTE(Bitter Monk @ Feb 11 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I've got to say Maewolf's and Killian's attitudes are to be commended. Thank you both for not getting overtly defensive or trying to make more out of your accounts than what was seen/heard. thumbup.gif


I agree completely!!

Maewolf,

I believe your story. It can be frustrating reading some posts on here how people get so negative and attack someone that is just stating his story. To be honest it makes me not want to post my expereinces sometimes.
You stated your story and people can choose if they belive you or not.

welcome to the forum. I remember reading this report when it was orginally posted on the BFRO site. I believe it now and I believed it then.

Kat
Drew
QUOTE(Maewolf @ Feb 11 2008, 03:02 PM) *
1. She had told me after it had happened, after i asked, that she hadnt seen it, just heard it coming at us and she started running

2. It had to have been at least 5 feet away, the trail wasnt that large and i had glimpsed it just as it was coming down out of the brush and such, so it was just coming to the trail

3. No it didnt happen at that time. I had gotten up and told my sister to follow me basically, and thats when she had said that she didnt want to go anymore, that it didnt feel right, she wanted to go back. I convinced her it would be fine and just as i turned around and started walking those first few steps was when it happened.

Thanks, I'd like to follow up with some more questions.

1. How old was this sister at the time?

2. At 5 feet, you probably got a good look at it, yet you call it a glimpse. Did you see anything recognizable, such as a head, or if it was on 2 or 4 feet? did it make any vocalizations, or just the crashing thought brush?

3. Did you or your sister get sick to your stomach later that day?
Terry
QUOTE(katbos @ Feb 12 2008, 07:54 AM) *
I agree completely!!

Maewolf,

I believe your story. It can be frustrating reading some posts on here how people get so negative and attack someone that is just stating his story. To be honest it makes me not want to post my expereinces sometimes.
You stated your story and people can choose if they belive you or not.

welcome to the forum. I remember reading this report when it was orginally posted on the BFRO site. I believe it now and I believed it then.

Kat


It's not a matter of believing her story at all, it's discussing what it could have been. There were no attacks against Maewolf either. Try and comprehend what has been written before you jump on that worn out bandwagon. If you want to believe everything is bf related and you didn't have a 100%, close-up visual of the thing in your sighting, you're probably wise not posting your experience. You'll just get angry and stressed when you receive comments on the contrary.

t.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Terry @ Feb 12 2008, 12:04 PM) *
It's not a matter of believing her story at all, it's discussing what it could have been. There were no attacks against Maewolf either. Try and comprehend what has been written before you jump on that worn out bandwagon. If you want to believe everything is bf related and you didn't have a 100%, close-up visual of the thing in your sighting, you're probably wise not posting your experience. You'll just get angry and stressed when you receive comments on the contrary.

t.



Bingo

I have seen nothing that even resembles an "attack" on Mae's account. I see requests for additional information, some suggestions but nothing more.

The only "negative" comments were relating to the "database" and their methodology ( 2 entirely separate and different things)

Take notice here- Mae came here asking for opinions/thoughts on her account and what it MIGHT have been. Thats the correct approach.

No one has accused her of lying, nobody has denied her account happened- nobody has really done anything but inquire further and be nice.

Whats happening here is the tired mantra of a few who view ANY question as "denial" or some form of "blasphemy" against BF or the reporter. They give the appearance they believe a "siighting" of anything ( confirmed, verified or not) as a possible BF and are simply close minded to any possiblity otherwise. They then accuse anyone who legitimately questions or inquires further as a heretic ( skeptic) as if thats a bad thing.

Then theres the other side ( from the alleged researchers)- many of them, by their own actions, are researchers in name ONLY and as such attempt ( innocently or deliberately) to pass off what is false research and unsupported conclusions as fruits of a LEGITIMATE research endeavour. They give the appearance they "they" should be "believed" just BECAUSE.

If anyone wonders why LEGITIMATE science has the views it has relating to this- those are 2 reasons why
Terry
Maewolf, you'll have to forgive us. The folks we call "romantics" or those who cannot comprehend legitimate comments or debate regarding sightings continually give us a difficult time for asking the questions that some of us feel should be asked. It has nothing to do with your posts. You did a great job with your questioning and I wish more folks posting their experiences had your class! I look forward to seeing you here again! thumbup.gif

t.
urbanshaman
Just remember Maewolf, while you are looking for opinions about your experience here, not all discussion in the thread is directed at you personally, nor is meant to invalidate your experience.

Please read some of the other sighting reports and notice that the same thing happens to all who post their sighting.
Maewolf
QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 12 2008, 07:13 AM) *
Thanks, I'd like to follow up with some more questions.

1. How old was this sister at the time?

2. At 5 feet, you probably got a good look at it, yet you call it a glimpse. Did you see anything recognizable, such as a head, or if it was on 2 or 4 feet? did it make any vocalizations, or just the crashing thought brush?

3. Did you or your sister get sick to your stomach later that day?



No problem ^^

Lets see...she is 15 now...so she was probably about nine or ten at the time

Actually no i didnt get a good look, it was that close, but just as i had turned I heard the noise that it had made, along with the moving and crashing through the brush, when I heard the roar and such I started running and as I started running I saw the glimpse out of the corner of my eye becuase I had been facing one direction then turned to face the other and just continued running away from it. I hope that makes sense by the way, if not um...lets say i was facing left...the noise happened, just as i started freaking out from the noise, i turned a 180 and bolted right back down the trail we had come from. And as I had been turning, I caught a glimpse of it.

It was tall, very tall from what i saw, I Dont know if it was on two or four feet to be honest, It did make this odd very terrifying roar that I will never forget, as it was coming at us.

Sick to her stomach as in vomit, or just feel like she was going to?

QUOTE(Terry @ Feb 12 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Maewolf, you'll have to forgive us. The folks we call "romantics" or those who cannot comprehend legitimate comments or debate regarding sightings continually give us a difficult time for asking the questions that some of us feel should be asked. It has nothing to do with your posts. You did a great job with your questioning and I wish more folks posting their experiences had your class! I look forward to seeing you here again! thumbup.gif

t.



Seriously, dont worry about it lol I had been told people would be acting like this when I first joined, so i kinda got myself ready for it ^^;

Thats why im taking everything i read in but not reacting to some things that are posted, such as some of the posts not even directed to me lol And thanks by the way ^^

Just answering the questions asked *nods*

QUOTE(urbanshaman @ Feb 12 2008, 05:11 PM) *
Just remember Maewolf, while you are looking for opinions about your experience here, not all discussion in the thread is directed at you personally, nor is meant to invalidate your experience.

Please read some of the other sighting reports and notice that the same thing happens to all who post their sighting.

Thanks ^^
I have read a few already, and did notice some
Rounder
Maewolf,
When you say this thing was "tall", do you think it was tall because it was higher than you coming down the hill, or we you on roughly level terrain with it?
Drew
Maewolf,
1. Did you feel sick to your stomach after the encounter?
or did you vomit?

2. were you able to make out facial features, fur etc... or was it just a dark shadow in your peripheal vision?

3. Do you have a history of any sleep disorders?
Maewolf
QUOTE(Rounder @ Feb 13 2008, 01:34 AM) *
Maewolf,
When you say this thing was "tall", do you think it was tall because it was higher than you coming down the hill, or we you on roughly level terrain with it?



Ive actually been wondering that since ive been asked all these other questions about it, it could of very well have been up higher becuase of the side of the hill. I have no way of knowing though.

QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 13 2008, 04:52 AM) *
Maewolf,
1. Did you feel sick to your stomach after the encounter?
or did you vomit?

2. were you able to make out facial features, fur etc... or was it just a dark shadow in your peripheal vision?

3. Do you have a history of any sleep disorders?



1, not that i can remember

2, dark shadow in my peripheal vision that made horrible noise and was moving towards me very fast

3, i really dont think that has anything to do with what we are looking for here.
Drew
OK then, if #3 is not answerable, then I can not answer your question 'What do you think it could be other than a bigfoot'.


Thanks
Rounder
QUOTE(Maewolf @ Feb 13 2008, 09:48 AM) *
Ive actually been wondering that since ive been asked all these other questions about it, it could of very well have been up higher becuase of the side of the hill. I have no way of knowing though.

If you're close enough, this alone may warrent a trip back to see exactly where this thing was coming from. If it was big, black, and it roared, we're down to three possibilities from what I can tell. The first is obviously a bear on a bluff charge. This is why height is important. Unless this thing was coming downhill, there're not too many bears that will tower over you in a charge. Even if you're only five feet tall, you'll still be looking down at any bear I've ever seen on level ground. Second possibility, some idiot in a monster suit that has nothing better to do than hang around the woods and scare girls. Not too likely, but still a possiblility. Third, I can't think of anything else other than a bigfoot on a bluff charge that would roar, be black, and taller than you. You said this thing was within five feet -- that's pretty close, so if you could find the exact same spot where you were standing when all hell broke loose and figure out where this thing was, it should be simple enough to rule out a bear.
bipedalist
QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 13 2008, 07:52 AM) *
Maewolf,
1. Did you feel sick to your stomach after the encounter?
or did you vomit?

2. were you able to make out facial features, fur etc... or was it just a dark shadow in your peripheal vision?

3. Do you have a history of any sleep disorders?


Just curious what does being sick to your stomach and sleep disorders have to do with any of this?
scratchhead.gif
julio12
QUOTE
but my sister freaked out on me, telling me that she had a very bad feeling and wanted to go back to where my dad and the others were. I told her it was ok and eventually convinced her to head down the trail a bit more, however once we started off again something charged at us from a wooded hill that was right next to me


Maewolf
Have you ever asked her about this feeling she got that caused her to freak out? What was it that freaked out your sister? what type of a feeling did she have? Was she in the lead on this trail when she got this feeling?.Something happen with you two whether it was a Bigfoot or not you had encounter with a animal of some sort.Did you feel any strangness there like your sister that you can remember.
Mark A
Maewolf
QUOTE(Rounder @ Feb 13 2008, 02:28 PM) *
If you're close enough, this alone may warrent a trip back to see exactly where this thing was coming from. If it was big, black, and it roared, we're down to three possibilities from what I can tell. The first is obviously a bear on a bluff charge. This is why height is important. Unless this thing was coming downhill, there're not too many bears that will tower over you in a charge. Even if you're only five feet tall, you'll still be looking down at any bear I've ever seen on level ground. Second possibility, some idiot in a monster suit that has nothing better to do than hang around the woods and scare girls. Not too likely, but still a possiblility. Third, I can't think of anything else other than a bigfoot on a bluff charge that would roar, be black, and taller than you. You said this thing was within five feet -- that's pretty close, so if you could find the exact same spot where you were standing when all hell broke loose and figure out where this thing was, it should be simple enough to rule out a bear.



Right now its up in the area that has a huge ammount of snow, so i cant go there any time soon. But I could probably go back in the spring or summer.

QUOTE(julio12 @ Feb 13 2008, 08:10 PM) *
Maewolf
Have you ever asked her about this feeling she got that caused her to freak out? What was it that freaked out your sister? what type of a feeling did she have? Was she in the lead on this trail when she got this feeling?.Something happen with you two whether it was a Bigfoot or not you had encounter with a animal of some sort.Did you feel any strangness there like your sister that you can remember.
Mark A


I did ask her about it, she really couldnt explain how i t came on, just that it did come and she didnt want to go any farther. I was leading us down the trail, she was behind me. I myself thought it would be fine to continue, I didnt know why she was so scared, i didnt feel anything

QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 13 2008, 08:05 AM) *
OK then, if #3 is not answerable, then I can not answer your question 'What do you think it could be other than a bigfoot'.
Thanks

ok

QUOTE(bipedalist @ Feb 13 2008, 04:11 PM) *
Just curious what does being sick to your stomach and sleep disorders have to do with any of this?
scratchhead.gif

exactly...its a bit odd...
liebling
hiya maewolf, thanks for sharing your story. sounds pretty scary!

i think they're asking if you felt sick because some people have reported that they do when they have a bigfoot experience. something to do with low resonating sounds, below what our ears typically pick up, and it can cause nausea. i'm sure others will explain that better, or likely correct me.

i am wondering if your sister has ever had that weird sense of dread before? if so, did anything strange happen at those times too? i, myself used to get that feeling of impending doom, and something would happen by the next day. i guess i grew out of it tho, it hasnt happened in years.

anyway, just curious
gael

welcome to the bff smile.gif
Drew
QUOTE(liebling @ Feb 14 2008, 07:26 AM) *
i think they're asking if you felt sick because some people have reported that they do when they have a bigfoot experience. something to do with low resonating sounds, below what our ears typically pick up, and it can cause nausea. i'm sure others will explain that better, or likely correct me.

welcome to the bff smile.gif


Close,
But If the answer was 'Yes' to the sick to the stomach question, then I was going to suggest that they had eaten some wild mushrooms, or some bad food, with mold on it, and were both hallucinating.
Sam Farris
QUOTE(Maewolf @ Feb 9 2008, 12:10 AM) *
So what do you think about it? I would really like to hear opinions on what you think it could of been, if not a bigfoot...


...an attention-grabbing story?

Sam
Maewolf
QUOTE(liebling @ Feb 14 2008, 04:26 AM) *
hiya maewolf, thanks for sharing your story. sounds pretty scary!

i think they're asking if you felt sick because some people have reported that they do when they have a bigfoot experience. something to do with low resonating sounds, below what our ears typically pick up, and it can cause nausea. i'm sure others will explain that better, or likely correct me.

i am wondering if your sister has ever had that weird sense of dread before? if so, did anything strange happen at those times too? i, myself used to get that feeling of impending doom, and something would happen by the next day. i guess i grew out of it tho, it hasnt happened in years.

anyway, just curious
gael

welcome to the bff smile.gif

Ive never seen her react like that before that or after, so im really not sure. Its hard to answer questions about her becuase she doesnt live with me and i rarely see her these days. Just became a teenager...lol

QUOTE(Drew @ Feb 14 2008, 06:01 AM) *
Close,
But If the answer was 'Yes' to the sick to the stomach question, then I was going to suggest that they had eaten some wild mushrooms, or some bad food, with mold on it, and were both hallucinating.

riiiighhttt..... rolleyes2.gif
urbanshaman
QUOTE(bipedalist @ Feb 13 2008, 07:11 PM) *
Just curious what does being sick to your stomach and sleep disorders have to do with any of this?
scratchhead.gif


He's fishing for a "psychosis" answer. icon_rolleyes.gif
Furious_George
First of all Maewolf, I liked the story and I believe you. I don't want you to take these questions that I have the wrong way.
Where was your dad, and was he wearing dark clothing?
I ask because when you mentioned that your mother suggested that you should go down that path, I immediately thought it was because your dad and brother were laying in wait to scare the heck out of you. I thought that because that's what would have happened in my screwed up family.
Rounder
Furious George,
That's not a bad question, and a scenerio I hadn't considered considering I'm just the kind of guy who would pull a stunt like that. As for your "screwed up family", I see that you live in NY/NY, did you ever think that teaching a kid to be wary of things jumping out at him/her might be a good thing when living in the Big City?
RedRatSnake
QUOTE(Furious_George @ Feb 16 2008, 02:40 AM) *
First of all Maewolf, I liked the story and I believe you. I don't want you to take these questions that I have the wrong way.
Where was your dad, and was he wearing dark clothing?
I ask because when you mentioned that your mother suggested that you should go down that path, I immediately thought it was because your dad and brother were laying in wait to scare the heck out of you. I thought that because that's what would have happened in my screwed up family.



Hi

Ya know that is pretty good thumbup.gif


Peace
Tim
slewfoot
Mae's mom suggested the path. That would make her part of the conspiracy. I don't buy it. I don't think a mother would want to scare the living daylights out of her kids. If the father or the brother did it, they would have admitted doing the deed.
Furious_George
QUOTE(slewfoot @ Feb 16 2008, 02:35 PM) *
Mae's mom suggested the path. That would make her part of the conspiracy. I don't buy it. I don't think a mother would want to scare the living daylights out of her kids. If the father or the brother did it, they would have admitted doing the deed.



That's actually what made me think of it. My Dad would get my Mom involved in stuff like that all the time. I might be off base.
And yeah Rounder, I agree, it would be a good lesson for the kids to be more careful wherever they are, but mostly it would have been just fun to do.
Maewolf
My dad was still at the quarry, he was there when we left, and when we returned. So unless he had some way to get all the way there and back before we did , and not seem out of breath, and change his clothes since neither my brother or him were wearing dark clothes (Very warm day, loose light colored clothing was best lol) Then I dont know. But I dont think it was them, my dad is kinda large, but short, and neither of them would ever be able to make a noise like that




HOWEVER! I Did speak with my sister yesterday, and she said she would be willing to answer any questions you ahd for her!

So if you want to post them here of message them to me, either is fine, but I will contact her through her email, then she can answer me through there and i can post them here!


QUOTE(slewfoot @ Feb 16 2008, 11:35 AM) *
Mae's mom suggested the path. That would make her part of the conspiracy. I don't buy it. I don't think a mother would want to scare the living daylights out of her kids. If the father or the brother did it, they would have admitted doing the deed.



Also, to clear things up, STEP mother lol
RedRatSnake
Hi

I agreed with Furious_George cause it made sense to me, Since you didn't see who or what it was there is always a question out there ??

I am happy you cleared it up thumbup.gif



Peace
Tim
Furious_George
Thanks for answering Maewolf. I didn't mean to imply anything. I hope it didn't seem that way. I was just asking because that's something my dad would do. Sounds like it was a scary day for you and your sister.
Maewolf
oh no no no, I didnt think you were like being rude or anything dont worry lol I had even asked my dad and brother, and they had said they hadnt been back there at all. I think after seeing how scared we were, if it had been them then they would of said something.


Also, as said my sister will answer any questions, and i was able to get two images from scott taylors (I think that was his name) investigation, would you like me to post them?
mkianni
QUOTE(Maewolf @ Feb 17 2008, 02:50 PM) *
and i was able to get two images from scott taylors (I think that was his name) investigation, would you like me to post them?


Yep!! thumbup.gif
Maewolf
Alright, I added some text to the one just to show where I was and where everyone else was basically, where those cars are in the picture is where my dads truck had been.

I did ask scott for more pictures if he had any, so im waiting for a reply on that.

and photobucket is taking forever to load....XP





Furious_George
It looks like a nice area. If I was a bigfoot, that's where I would be.
longtabber PE
Is he calling that a footprint?
Maewolf
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Feb 17 2008, 12:51 PM) *
Is he calling that a footprint?

*shrugs* just showing you what I was given thumbup.gif
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Maewolf @ Feb 17 2008, 03:06 PM) *
*shrugs* just showing you what I was given thumbup.gif



That was no reflection on you
mkianni
Click to view attachment

I've got about a hundred depressions in my back yard alone that look just like this...............how could he possibly conclude from what he's pointing out (or measuring) that it's the print of an unknown primate?
longtabber PE
QUOTE(mkianni @ Feb 17 2008, 03:41 PM) *
I've got about a hundred depressions in my back yard alone that look just like this...............how could he possibly conclude from what he's pointing out (or measuring) that it's the print of an unknown primate?



Another example of that highly touted research?
jimf
At least a tape measure was used. That's better than about 75% of the pictures I've seen posted regarding what some call tracks or foot-prints.
Furious_George
Another reason for a bigfoot.......maybe? I might be grasping at straws here but this is what I was thinking as I read it.
You said it charged at you. I know large primates will do a mock charge and so do bears. But I thought if you ran away when a bear does a mock charge it will trigger predatory responses and commit. I dunno, maybe I watch too many nature shows. lol But I'm ruling out a bear. I think a bear would have caught you.
Rounder
Maewolf,
I have a question for your sister. I realize this is some years after the event and memories tend to blur, but could you ask her about the fear response she experienced right before whateveritwas came crashing through the trees. Was it specifically related to something she heard/saw/smelled, or was it just a general feeling of "Let's get the hell outta here'?
Rounder
QUOTE(slewfoot @ Feb 16 2008, 01:35 PM) *
Mae's mom suggested the path. That would make her part of the conspiracy. I don't buy it. I don't think a mother would want to scare the living daylights out of her kids.

Ahhh, but she was an step-mother. You've obviously forgotten your Grimm's fairy tales. Remember Hansel and Gretel? If fairy tales have taught us anything at all, its that step-mothers are evil, on par with wolves, and that all lumber jacks are rugged trust-worthy fellows who can be counted on in a pinch.
Maewolf
Sending that question to my sister now!
She has school so it might take a day or so to get an answer ^^;;



And I really did think a bear would of continued to chase us and or catch us just like a cougar, etc



I can see the "toe impressions" he had been talking about...but other than that..it could of just been like...where water had sat for a while or something...I dont know ^^;;
RedRatSnake
Hi

After looking at the picture of the (foot print) i figured i would go out and see if i could find a similar spot and do a little messing around, i found a spot that had some rocks that were in a pattern that looked like toes to me, it is raining here today so the ground looks much like the picture posted,

Here is what i did,,,, i walked all over the area to flatten down the rocks and smooth things out, i them removed the rocks and snapped some pictures, i then walked over the area with the rocks removed and took another picture, there were no arches or impressions in the posted pic so i didn't focus on that

Maewolf ... This has nothing to do with your encounter.................... it is just a demonstration of how quick and easy it would be to claim a footprint sighting

Peace
Tim
Maewolf
QUOTE(redratsnake @ Feb 18 2008, 08:24 AM) *
Maewolf ... This has nothing to do with your encounter.................... it is just a demonstration of how quick and easy it would be to claim a footprint sighting

Peace
Tim

*nods*
slewfoot
QUOTE(Rounder @ Feb 18 2008, 05:50 AM) *
Ahhh, but she was an step-mother. You've obviously forgotten your Grimm's fairy tales. Remember Hansel and Gretel?


Never heard of this fellow Grimm. I do have extensive knowledge of Fractured Fairy Tales and I fondly remember Squirrel and Moose.
Maewolf
QUOTE(slewfoot @ Feb 18 2008, 04:28 PM) *
Never heard of this fellow Grimm. I do have extensive knowledge of Fractured Fairy Tales and I fondly remember Squirrel and Moose.

hahaha rolleyes2.gif
hopefulskeptic
I had a similar experience, while hunting in the Presque Isle area of Michigan, I was walking on my way out of the woods, when all of a sudden I heard something big moving in the brush ahead of me, then I heard a low gutteral growl. The brush was at the edge of a flooded cedar wood. I was terrified, I unhooked my hunting knife and knocked an arrow, and started backing away from the sound. There were gravel pits a few miles, and the area has deer and elk. I would like to say I think it was a bigfoot, actually I probably could, but it was probably a just a bear. I'm not saying you didn't have an encounter with a bigfoot, I'm just explaining there are other possibilities that are a lot more probable headbang.gif
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