I don't know if you've been keeping up with the Forest Service but they are closing roads like never before. This is good for the animals but not for the offroad people. I'm for it because I like to hike, backpack in but now they are saying no to camping in some areas and I say find me if you can, it's my land too.

This exec order is from high ranking FS official. A study done on people and their SUV/4x4 offroad motor vehicles tearing up the land was enough to get thing started. But they don't study how messed up it gets after logging. As I find more information about this I'll post the links. I read this about two months ago in the local paper. I would like to know if this is a local thing or nation wide.

Haha. Very good attitude. I like it.

Having said that, I have noticed a lot of road closures over here, but that's mostly due to intense rains and December flooding.

its documented, though bears will use long established roads, they are prone to habitat fragmentation with
new road construction, closing established roads I'm not sure what effect, but if it decreases fragmentation after
they totally grow over I would think that is a good thing, what is good for bears would probably be good for
bigfoot since their habitats seem to overlap everywhere. There has been a tendency to close logging roads
in the southeast to improve wildlife habitat for turkey, grouse and the like by replanting and reseeding some of
these closed roads. I'm not sure that is what is driving this current spate however, I think it is a water quality
issue of watershed management, aquaculture, fisheries resources and the like. IMHO

Hi


A lot of roads are closed in the last few yrs here in Plymouth,MA,,, The environmental police say it is because of the forest and trails getting torn up with bikes , ATVs and 4x4s , better for animals but not so good when you want to ride


Peace

Tim

I'm with Kucta-qa and red rat snake on that. On the occasions I've gone commando style bushwhacking I might have cursed the guvmint but under my breath I was kinda glad as it more or less guaranteed you'd not see many others...though you had to be aware that you were "on your own" and take care not to leave a trace, which is my style of backpacking anyway. But, alas, still no BF...but still hopin'.

where I had my sightings the two track has been closed off to Vehicles do to enviormental.I do find it kinda of strange that the forest sevice would do this.You can still travel there but on foot but the car or truck stays by the road.I just hope they do not do this with the atv trails.

Road closures? Tell me about it!!! All of the people I off road with tread as lightly as possible, but there will always be those few that go do donuts (sp?) off the road or leave their trash laying around. Read the link below and you'll see that the forest service is not to blame. They want to keep the roads open, afterall, they share the same outdoor interests as every other person who uses FS roads. It's these newely sparked, save the earth, drive a hybrid, use a leaf as toilet paper groups that want to stop people from enjoying what so many people fought and died for. Tell me this, how can you enjoy American's wild lands if you can't even get close to them? When ever I have children, I don't want our backyard to be the only place we can camp because all forest access is closed.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/land_use/eldo.php


Sorry. This subject really gets me on my soapbox

I cannot fully agree with your placement of blame. I do not think it is the environmentalists that are to blame. The FS has always had limited funds for upkeep and improvements. It is the people who abuse the lands that are to blame. Going out into BFE just to drive all crazy away from the troopers. Driving off road. Blazing trails of thier own. People get out where they are virtually unsupervised and they do whatever they please. And it costs us all for thier neglect.

It is the old syndrome of build a new road rather than fix the ones you got.

They are closing roads around here also. The Greenies really like it. I think that will begin to change when all of the hidden costs to this show up in a few years. They pay contractors to close the roads. They first have to dig runoff ditches every 100 ft or so to limit erosion. It may not seem like a big deal, but every 100 ft or so adds up after 20 or 30 miles. Then they block access points by digging trenches and berms, moving boulders or trees into the roadway, and such.

Then we have a fire.

Overnight, they hire almost every available Cat, grader, and backhoe in the area to open and repair those same roads to get them open NOW!!! so they can get equipment down them to fight the fires. They fill the trenches, smooth the berms, grade out the ditches and re-rock every last bit of them. Because of the emergency, they pay whatever it costs ("How much $$ do you need to get done yesterday?") Contractors come from everywhere and make huge money. When the fire is out, guess what? You got it, they then pay to have it all closed and undone again. I have a relative that has a backhoe and grader. He thinks it is great. They pay him to work for a couple of years to close a road system. Just about the the time he gets it all done and the contract is up, they pay him $$$ to undue all that work. A month or two later, along comes another multi-year job to close those same roads all over again. Our tax dollars at work!

17x7

there has always been "slobs" of all sorts in the woods.one person acting irresponsibly can ruin it all for the appreciative ones.the f.s. has a shoestring budget and closing roads is more than likely due to realigning the budget.

I'm up here in Canada so this doesn't directly effect me, but the first thing that crossed my mind reading this thread was the point 17x7 brought up, how are you going to fight the fires if you abandon the roads. I personally don't own an ATV, or any powered watercraft, I like to keep it simple either on foot or in my old canoe. But I certainly don't have a problem sharing the outdoors with those who choose other means of transportation. s**t, we're all there for a good time, who cares how you get there. I too don't like idiots who think lots of horsepower is an excuse to rip up the countryside, but you get idiots in any group, I don't see why all ATV users are painted with the same brush. I lived for years in New Brunswick, just north of Maine, and the wood there were entirely criss-crossed with trails. I explored them on foot, some used quads, some used snowmobiles, and I never thought for a minute I had some special right to exclusive use just because I chose to walk. I'm not sure what's behind the USFS closing roads, but it sounds pretty short-sighted and stupid to me. Oh ya, and I like that No Camping thing too! ha ha If you can find me I'll pack up and leave.

Just one simple rule when you camp and that is you pack out what you pack in.As far as the ATV you stay on the atv trails that what they were made for and not wnder off them.As long as you follow the rules there is not a problem .But enviormentist is what is taking the joy out of enjoying what nature has to offer.I love to ride my atv maily because it is getting harder for me to walk the trails .I love being out in the field doing the research for the big guy but my health is not letting me and it is getting harder to enjoy as more forest is getting closed to the public either due to funding or the enviormentilist.

That is the case in Crockford Pigeon Mountain WMA in North Georgia. They began closing roads and recently limited the areas you can camp. They seem to be favoring bicyclist and horse back riders.

You are only allowed legally registered vehicles on the WMA so no 4 wheelers.

I'm not upset with DNR, but with the public who has abused the area and required DNR to make these new rules.

They have included a handicap access area and I thank that is cool!

ROAD CLOSURES

Consider this for a moment. One of the way to numb the general population against forest destruction is to make it impossible for the population to actualy go to the forest and expierence nature. So by locking us out it becomes an out of sight out of mind sort of thing. Now when the loggers come in there's less pressure against cutting.

Technically, they're locking out the vehicles, not the people. Just another reason I prefer to travel on foot or by canoe -- it would take a twelve foot electric fence to keep me out of some place I wanted to go.

Regarding clear-cutting operations, one doesn't necessarily have to close the roads. Some aspects of planning for clear cutting are the aesthetics and sections destined to be heavily clear cut will sometimes be drawn up to minimize the visual impacts with leave strips and staggered cutting schedules...and since most just look at the forest from the window of their cars, it all looks good to the majority of folks who would comment.

IMO, road closures in regards to Bigfoot research are the best thing since sliced bread.

It's going on all over, especially in the West where the Feds own most of "their" lands.

From what I can tell it's nationwide, and due to the fact that, changes in administration notwithstanding, the Forrest Service has been taken over by Sierra Club tree-humper types who think the best way to "manage public lands" is to "lock them up and lock the people out" in perpetuity.

The road closures have been going on for a number of years, and has nothing to do with "Greenies" being in charge of the US Department of Forestry. Trying to keep this from blowing up into a political discussion, I'm not going to name names or point fingers because what's happening was directed by two of our top leaders a number of years ago. Most people have not noticed, simply because it' hasn't affected them, until now. When the "Act" was first put into place the only ones screaming were those who were handicapped or otherwise physically unfit to visit areas of National Parks because roads had been closed and now people had to start walking a few miles to see the attractions. Now able bodied people who didn't listen at the time wonder where the heck did this come from and blaming the wrong people.



(emphasis mine)

That's where the road closures started. I'm guessing they seen significant improvement towards the end results they wanted to achieve, and have continued widening the areas covered with more road closures.

In Oregon you'll find some of the strictest regulations about what you can do and not do on public lands. An example is the Kalmiopsis Wilderness Area where the only way in and out is on foot. No Roads and you aren't, at least wasn't the last time I checked, to even take a bicycle, let alone anything motorized into the area.

Completely agree. The public hasn't been locked out of anywhere, some places you
just have to use your legs rather than your wheels. And most of the roads that have
been closed were illegal to start off with...cross-country routes that started out with
one vehicle going where it wasn't supposed to, then enough other vehicles eventually
taking the same route to create a de-facto road. This brings increased erosion, fire
danger, and invasive weeds, so USFS usually closes them, unless they determine
that they're not a problem. I'm sure BFF's own USFS representative, Hairy Man, can
provide more info.

Well first, I echo what windigeo said. Managing motorized travel has been a long standing issue (over many administrations). It has always been FS policy to close unauthorized roads (user created), especially those that do resource damage (go through arch sites, TES species, etc.). Where we ran into problems was that many user created roads never got closed and by default became part of the "system."

Under the current project, we mapped all the roads using GPS and invited the public to make sure we got it right. Now, we are in the process of sorting it all out...what roads should be there; what is causing resource damage; what routes go through private land that we don't have easements for; what roads should be for street legal vs. off highway; what roads can user groups manage for us, etc. In the end, we'll be able to give the public a map of where they can go. In the end, most forests are adding more miles of road to the system than what is going to be closed.

However, one thing that you all should be aware of is that the courts are now mandating that we decide how far off a designated route a vehicle can travel in order to camp. That one is tough...most forest have a 150 foot policy but some are now making it a car length. How that will effect you depends on what you are use to and how far you mind carrying all your camping gear (you can still camp where ever you want...you just may have to walk further).

That is the policy for all wilderness areas in the United States (not just Oregon). All forms of motorized or mechanized travel (cars, bikes, atv's, snowmobiles, and technically, wheelchairs) are prohibited in wilderness (rescue helicopters have to be approved by the Regional Forester in San Fransisco before going in). We can't use chainsaws or other motorized tools there either (so when we work on trails or old cabins, we have to use handtools).

In fact, my Forest just lost a huge case that stated that we can no longer maintain 18 check dams (all of which were in the Emigrant Wilderness prior to Congress designating the area and 7 of which are historically significant) that help regulate water flow for fish. The courts said the damn dams were evidence humans were there and that wasn't allowed by the act. We are now arguing over the same issue with a cabin that needs some repairs that was built in 1865.

Sometimes a good idea can get trapped by it's own wording when made into law.
I think Hairy Man's post above shows some prime examples of this.

Having said that - I think that road closures in some areas are warranted and beneficial.
Road closures have been the policy in BC for many years due to the basic fact that many roads allow for further soil and cover degradation by the use of vehicles by idots on sensitive lands.
Furthermore - roads are very injurious to the natural habitat if they are built in mountainous areas or on hillsides due to the natural water run-off patterns being altered and the increased slide potential.

Dont remember when exactly, but I saw a story on the news here in Mass, that talked about state campgrounds. ALot of them are in severe disrepair and aren't maintained all that well. Lack of funds apparently. They went on to say that the state would be closing a number of parks and campgrounds because they just dont have the money to maintain them properly. Shame really.

I was out getting the mail from my PO box today and picked up the free local paper "The Frontier" and there was two articles about the NF road closures. A link was in one of them explaining whats going on.

Travel Management

All they have to do is hand it over to a local club or group. It is a shame that the NFS sell all that timber but still comes up short.

That's another topic I think, The mismanagement of OUR National forest and Public Lands

Coming soon to a forum near you.

So you can't wait for the Olympics either???

I consider myself a green person, as do most the people I use forest service roads with. I hate these road closers. The private timber companies, State DNR, and USFS are all doing this in Western Washington. This is a huge factor to all types of sportsmen and environmentalists who like to use the roads to access trail systems, hunt, fish, camp, backpack, use their SUVs for what they were built for, and go bigfooting. I plant lakes with the Washington State Hi-Lakers. How can I get to the trailhead with my 4x4 so that I can hike my fish in on my back? How can I access my sponsored lakes when the lake, or trail to it is ten miles beyond a gate. I can't even use my Honda Mini trail 70s anymore because the signs state that only bicycles, horses, and hikers can go beyond the gate. So we have all these great hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, light offroading, dirtbike, and bigfootin' areas closed off to everyone that does not have a KEY to the gate. KEY TO THE GATE!!! Now, these timber guys have it made. they have the entire place to themselves. great hunting, fishing, you name it, all to themselves. The private timber industry is getting tax breaks for allowing the public to use the land, then they don't let us use it. I saw a local rich slob in the paper last fall with a 4 point Blacktail which he shot in an area that I USED to be able to hunt. Can't now, I don't have a key to the gate. Bet he had fun. Don't blame this on the greens, blame it on the Timber Industry, the present administration, the State DNR, and the public not getting enraged about it, instead being apathetic as usual.

One reason that the USFS does not fix roads that have been washed out is because the Bush Administration keeps cutting the USFS budget. Bush just cut it 10% two months ago. 2500 jobs lost, and roads put to sleep or not repaired because there is no money to repair them. We have plenty of great bigfooting places without having to shut down all these roads that we payed for. We need to get together on this and stop blaming greens. I backpack with a lot of green people, none of them are happy when we can't get to the trailhead. I also have 3 4x4s, and like to use them. I also have 3 Honda trailbikes, and like to use them responsibly. I love to hunt grouse in the fall. And I am a green tree hugger!

I'm not green. I'm human.

I'm damned sick and tired of greenies.



Greenies don't want you to.




Gotta' have a key.

Gotta' know the right folks.



Bullspit.

Blame it on exclusion.



Of course, you're aware that Congress holds the purse strings, not the President?



I am.

LOL - I like you Hunster.

The budget cuts have been happening since Bush was not voted into office in 2000. I'm not sure where you live, but I stated the way things are in Western Washington, things could be different in other parts of the country. The timber industry blames these road closers on tree theft, vandalism, poaching, garbage dumping, irresponsible four-wheeling and ATV use, and fire danger. Unfortunatly, all these things happen regularly when the public has access to the private, state, and federal forest roads. The rest of us have to pay for it. One timber corporation in my area was taking a deposit for a key to their property. You gave Crown Pacific $20, they took your info and gave you a key. They gave you back your $20 when you brought the key back. This way they could keep a lid on the redneck abusers, while allowing the public to use their land. Too bad others don't do that. Sorry you are sick of greens. We all want to use the roads, and I have never had a problem with anyone who deeply cares about access to public lands.

The road closures have to be good for B/F. They prefer to live where they are not bothered. I am dealing with a Military Reservation and a Wildlife Refuge. You have to fake coon hunting at night to stay on the Military reservation, and the Wildlife Refuge wants everyone out by dark.

So to get around where I cannot drive I bought an electric bicycle that is supposed to go 17 miles before the battery goes down.

I've seen people on those bikes, they look like a good idea. I picked up a 1993 Honda Trail 70 about 7 years ago, just to get around gates to hit my fishing and hunting spots. I liked the bike so much that I bought a trail 90, and another trail 70. They are really quiet since they are 4 stroke, and they are reliable. I see lots of game while riding my trailbikes.. The problem now is that the private timber industry won't even let people go around the gate with a motorcycle. They want the area to themselves. So I don't plant the lakes anymore. Maybe I'll get one of those electric motors and hook it up to my mountain bike. See how long it takes them to put up another sign "NO BICYCLES".

"Bush was not voted into office" How true

I can take both sides and also see both sides. What reallly chaps my but is the signs they put up after they rape our forest. Like No motor Vehicles in order to get that nature experience. I have hiked about 40 miles of forest on the Mogollon Rim in AZ in the last 30 days and you cannot walk more than a hundred feet before seeing bulldozer tracks. All the Fir, Western Pine and Spruce are GONE, totally GONE except for the remaining 5% of old growth. It's nothing more then political BS.

IF they close the roads then they also need to stop the cutting on and in OUR Forest.

Or open all roads and you can make all the new roads you want just like the BULLDOZERS did when raping the forest. Whats the difference?

The Canadians know how to do it, Last time I was in BC it was hard to tell even where they logged. You could see for miles and miles from a high point and it was all solid forest.

Here in Oregon, the Forest Service has stopped most of the logging due to endangered species like the spotted owl, and BF has not been specified as endangered yet! I have not noticed closed off roads but private land is gated. The private land owners are logging hell out of the land.

I wonder what would happen if you mapped all of the road closings ,,,, then overlayed all of the BF sightings

conspiracy theory #903543222456

Seeing what I've seen here ol' Gifford Pinchot must be rolling in his grave....these woods haven't had a stick taken out of them in years. They're getting primed for one hell of a fire during the summer months. As far as the ATV section of things, it does tick me off, I'm looking at potential situation where I don't know how long my legs will last, but will still wanna be able to go enjoy what has always been my favorite get away....the WA woods. Technically, we had couple of folks that were in violation of this policy on a trip last year.

While packing gear with the missus the local ranger dude showed up to ask a couple questions, and smelling a fishing expedition, I casually let slide there had been an ATV up there with us....holy crap, you'ld a thought I was the guy that lit the Tillamook Burn all those years ago. Ol' Barney was on the case, you could smell the ticket book smouldering from his case in the rig.

Now to understand, we've not had any real problems down in this area, we've got pretty nice roads to poke and most folks respect the gates, as stated you've got a few bad apples in every bunch. I've taken action before to stop poacher and such, why not let US the real alleged land-owners have an oppurtunity to police the ranks before you spank us all before punishing the few who deserve it.


As to smowmobiles, never ridden one myself but have piggy-backed a couple times, and with the snowfall we had this year it would have been no problem to get into one of the Holy Grail's of bigfooting which has been gated for years as elk habitat. No self-respecting, non suicidal elk would have been in there, but what about stressing the cows that were their in "the safe place" to drop their calves and had to listen to those pissed off chain saw sounding engines?

Even when approached about just doing road-watches by Reserve Deputy Sheriff's and guys like myself that just got out of LE work so there would at least be a presence in the area to relieve the Deptuties and the Rangers, was denied we got not only a "NO" but a "HELL NO, not in MY forest. Last I heard those were Public Lands. And sadly, in a recent meeting, they lied about the whole blasted offer being put to them.

Sorry for being so long winded folks, but this situation puts a real hitch in my giddy-up, so please move along now nothing to see here