I'm just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that the BFRO, are being sustained on the fact that Sasquatch is a mystery and that people will pay money to try and solve said mystery. However, what happens to those organizations if and when the big guy is finally scientifically proven and is no longer a mystery?

The scenario that I see happening is that university as well as scientific and animal activist groups will immediately start clamoring for control and attempt to leverage their huge reserves of dollars into studying and protecting the creatures pusing out smaller non-scientific groups. I also see various state and federal agencies doing likewise. Where then does this leave the BFRO? If this were to occur, I see much of their membership going away because there no longer is a mystery and therefore no reason to belong, pay dues pay for $300 camping trips. I also see the rich millionaires withdrawing their financing as the enigma has been solved. In the end it is very possible that the BFRO and other similar groups will dissapear.

So my question is this: is it in the best interest of the BFRO to actually find Sasquatch, or are they better off keeping him a mystery that can never be solved?

There ya go, you figured it out

The money will keep rolling in as long as there is a mystery

I would guess that MM would have to take himself back to Vegas where con artist showmen belong.

The way I see it is if the BFRO were the group to make the discovery, then they may be able to leverage that to keep themselves in the game. If they don't have any part in the find, it would be much harder to keep the flames burning.

Perhaps. But, I'd be surprised if a non-scientific group headed by a man with a law degree gets much more than a book deal out of it.

Thanks to Matt Moneymaker's database and years of searching in the field he would probably be sought out by the media for a while and become the 'every day mans' talking head expert while the real scientists take over.

His Bigfoot tours would probably become even more popular for thousands who would want a chance at seeing what was once thought to be myth.

As I've said here before in other topics, if evidence for Bigfoot's existence was found tomorrow, it doesn't mean that finding another specimen would be just as easy. I think his database and circus tours would still thrive because of that. Maybe even more so. Everyone will be seeing them. If Bigfoot is found to be a real animal, every bump in the night, thrown rock, twisted tree arrangement, strange call, knocking noise, and garbage smell will be attributed to him.............oh wait a minute.............thats actually already happening.

My bad.

I suspect that there will be bigger and better tour companies pop up once bigfoot is 'discovered'.

I don't think for a second that Moneymaker (depite his faults) *doesn't* want to find Bigfoot - of course he does, and I'm sure he has thought about the implications of what happens to BFRO when bigfoot is discovered.

The people who will be sought out by the media will be the anthropology professors and primate experts that wern't interested in the subject before, but want to study them now - the TV companies will be clambering for footage and wildlife documentaries, and in this clamber there will probably be money to be made by people like Moneymaker in advising TV crews etc., but there will be no big bucks floating about.

But, like I said, despite my issues with Moneymaker, I really don't think he would prolong this game even though it would be in his interests to do so - he wants to be the person who 'discovers' bigfoot.


When bigfoot is found, this forum will have a real shift in direction, most of the people who currently post here will dissapear, and different people will arrive - who knows? eventually BFF will cease to exist, and we will do so with absolutely no regrets, but we will archive everything first I assure you.

There will be a new rash of Hollywood movies about bigfoot.

There will be legal arguements over the name 'Bigfoot'.

San Francisco Zoo will build an inadequete enclosure to house a bigfoot family.

People will continue to make jokes about the size of my feet.

I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite occurs. I can see the Federal government declaring them an endangered species, and therefore they would be afforded protected status. It would then be against the law to go out and bother them and seek contact. They would be off limits much like whales and other protected animals are now.

I honestly don't think those paying customers on Moneymaker's camping trips are going to see anything more after Bigfoot's discovery than what they are seeing now.

Endangered species status would keep people from trying to view the animal in its natural environment?

I hadn't thought of that. After 'discovery', I think there would be an expectation from the paying public that they would actually see a bigfoot. When that doesn't happen, 'Bigfoot Tours Inc' will be out of business pretty quickly.

I do not see why BFF would disappear completely. You already have a general Cryptozoology forum. Plus BF is possibly only one animal out of many mystery primates. Discovering BF is hardly the end of it.

I have all ideas they will "see' a bigfoot alright- just like the "graboid tour" in Tremors III

I think there would be just enough gullible people to buy into those tours with the hope that they will see one, even if previous tours were unsuccessful, I think it would be enough to keep it thriving, for a while anyway. But yes, eventually it would crash.

Graboids. That made me laugh out loud.

My guess is that organizations like BFRO are little more than shoestring operations and have no substantial financial backing anyway. Its tempting to think that yes there is real money and real science going on within these groups but that's never the case. So what would happen if Bigfoot was finally confirmed as real. Well some people would have to go out and get a day job which I suspect they already have anyway. But relax dosen't seem like the enigma is going to go away anytime soon.

aha...obviously you didn't read the moneyman thread.

Apart from the fame and fortune from book deals and book tours and the movies and their multi-part franchises which would inevitably follow, etc., the ultimate value in the MM-owned BFRO property is the database itself; consisting of how many thousands of encounters and reports from virtually every corner of the Americas and elsewhere on earth?

If the database was properly organized and IT-rendered it would serve at least two markets: Academic/Research and Commercial. There would be a monetary charge for each and every on-line database inquiry, search and download and there would be an up front annual membership fee for each individual or group annual membership, including educational institution cluster memberships. (Ching-ching... ching-ching... )

Essentially, broad-based academic and scientific research could not begin to develop properly or continue to make meaningful headway without tapping into MM's database, or they would run the expensive risk of recreating the wheel each and every time they went to the trenches, at least at the outset and quite possibly for some years to come.

And of course, the golden-haired chosen ones from the ranks of the BFRO's elite researchers would instantly become celebrities and much sought after and highly paid advisers and consultants to anyone requiring their expertise; as Hollywood beats a path (nay, a veritable trench) to their door.

The database would provide a quick head start for research and for the commercial exploitation of BF everywhere. The beauty of providing a product which is essentially vapourware (research data information) is that it comes with no guarantees and results will inevitably vary with the user.

That database is worth GOLD! Allow yourself to speculate for a moment. If MM decided to sell all of his current and future rights to the database and cash out in one fell swoop, what do you think he would net in the payout for his BFRO sightings database?

It's the ultimate no risk 'teflon' product; a nice open-ended and probably long-term revenue stream to see MM into his wealthy dotage. Ahhhh... methinks there be diabolical method in his madness...
Dudlow

After BF is proven to exist enough information will be learned about the animals that all false data will be easily seen for what it is. As soon as the scientists see how much phony stuff the BFRO has thanks to MM's cons they are likely to throw the entire database in the garbage.

One rotten apple........

You beat me to it Paul, if Bigfoot does exist and the day it is discovered by science it will probably be one of the biggest discoveries in our lifetimes, MM and his kind might get their 15 minutes of fame at the beginning when CNN, MSNBC and FOX will be willing to put any Joe on the tube to find out what science has ignored, but after this and when science takes it over they will be squashed like the little bugs that they are.


The biggest winner IMO if Bigfoot is discovered? Jeff Meldrum.

Gee thanks Dudlow!

Hopefully my girlfriend won't read into your future outlook for me, she already says I have a big head sometimes

No one can say or promise what the future holds obviously, but what I can promise is that myself, MM & the other "elite golden-hairs of the BFRO" (I like the way that sounds btw, just wish it was "dark-hairs" instead because I'm not blond) want this thing done now, today, kaput... as quick as humanly possible. I assure you their is no milking or procrastination, or myself and many others would not be associated. I want that for myself and everyone else who's had the courage to believe, pursue and willingly or unwillingly beared witness to one of these animals. And I hope as I make my current career change I do become a "highly paid advisor"- as a successful financial consultant rather than a "bigfoot" one. But hey, if in the future, "Hollywood" or whoever wants to compensate me for advice of the latter, looking ahead I'll definitely be available on the weekends or after 5PM on weekdays

Ronnie B-

Although your squashed bugs comment wasn't very nice, your outlook scenario is fine by me and I'll take it in a second, as I've never been part of this for fame or fortune. I do this because I just absolutely love it and now I know I'm right (I'm certainly not alone). And I contend "we" all win when it's proven.

It appears to be a win-win situation. Either way they make money. In fact, there may be even more expeditions if squatch is proven to exist, trying to find another one.

RayG

Sorry man, I wasn't trying to be mean but more just trying to make a point, but also the "bugs" I refer to are not the good people - like yourself I imagine - who are not part of science but still are good researchers and do it for the reasons you just gave, I was more referring to the money-grabbers in our Bigfoot community whose motives are questionable at best.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Hey, no problem Ronnie, I understand.

Hope you have a great New Year!

Right back at you Bart! You have a great New Year.


And Patty if your out there, you have a great one too!

For me it's not the fact that some persons or groups try to make a profit. It's that some of them are dishonest
about it.

Hi

OK so BF is found and they have one or two to study, the money starts coming in and there protected,

When i was in Colorado Springs back in 82 there was a place on a little mountain road on the way to the Royal Gorge, The Elk/ Deer would come right out of the forest to stop the cars so people would feed them cause they were not afraid at that spot, ( but they were hunted everywear else ) Maybe BF would end up doing the same ???

Tim

yes i really did think about that before i wrote it

Now that was great! Wishing the best for Patty!

Do you have *any* evidence that MM cons people? BY that you appear to suggest that he is hoaxing his fee-paying tourists.

Well, I used to be on the old bfro before I got booted off for my humor...But before I did I was told that the 'inner circle' at the bfro are already sitting round campfires with bigfoot...seriously....I was told that they are already studying them, this inner circle mob....I was also told if I stopped stirring the pot I may be invited into this 'inner circle'.........well as you can see I did not stop stirring the pot......actually all I asked was show me some evidence......and guess what, I got no reply....funny that....
The impact of the discovery of bigfoot will/would be huge and far reaching......impact on the communities where bigfoot wanders, tourism, dodgy characters coming out of the woodwork, massive amounts of money for further study.....imagine the ego's then...one hell of a s**t fight.....bfro 'experts' being pushed out of the way by people with initials after their names and grant funding from Universities and the private sector.......habitat being locked up, hunters getting pissed off at bigfoot for locking up their hunting grounds.....bigfoot copping the brunt of pissed off small communities that have been transformed to include Bigfoot gift stores and clothing, Bigfoot night and day tours, Bigfoot helicopter tours, Bigfoot races, Miss Bigfoot competitions, Mcbigfootnuggetts and BigfootBurgers and last but not least BigfootWorld,...you yanks do it so well...

Meanwhile old Bigfoot is shaking like a leaf, wishing he was dead........rod

Is MM really a lawyer? Has anyone checked this out?

Yes I have, and no he isn't.

He did graduate from law school, but decided not to sit the bar exam, and cannot therefore work as a lawyer.

He charges people large amounts of money to go on expeditions where things always seem to happen. Interesting how he has so much success when someone is paying. Unpaid expeditions cannot boast his 'success rate'.

He has been known to kick people out of his organization for not turning over thier personal evidence when he snaps his fingers.

He claims to have all kinds of evidence but refuses to share it with anyone. What he does share, he leaves much information out. Seems he changed this rule for that rich guy he was trying to get to finance his 'work'.

Several obviously fake photos or videos that he claims are real. Hoaxing is a type of con. That by itself is reason.

But that is still not evidence that he cons people. Perhaps he does, but I'd have to see the solid evidence before I'd be convinced he's actually hoaxing the people who pay to play on his expeditions.

An implied accusation heh? What evidence do you have to back it up?



New to me - evidence please, not heresay



Why does he have to share anything? BFRO is a private venture. I don't have to share my company's methods or secrets with anyone.




Promoting a video of something unrecognisable as 'bigfoot' is not the same as staging a fake photo and promoting it as bigfoot.




I really don't want to sound like a Moneymaker apologist, but you can't throw arround accusations of criminality without backing it up with evidence.

None of what you have posted is really evidence of anything. I think some of the "perceptions" here ( for lack of a better term) stem from the fact that for whatever reason, MM has decided to do his organization as a BUSINESS rather than a purely scientific endeavor or labor of love. ( which is his right) Running a business has a different set of rules.

I have no bias ( pro or con) for him and the only contact I have ever had with him was a few E mails years ago when i was considering going on one of his trips ( those never happened simply because my schedule wouldnt ever permit it- not for any other reason)

>>>He charges people large amounts of money to go on expeditions where things always seem to happen. Interesting how he has so much success when someone is paying. Unpaid expeditions cannot boast his 'success rate'.

Speaking as a businessman ( and one who has considered some of his outings)- he posts his fees, agenda, rules etc up front for everyone to see. At that point, its the buyers decision. If one wants to attend one of his outings- one goes by his rules. Regarding 'success'- since he has never produced a BF- thats more of an abstract opinion.

>>>He has been known to kick people out of his organization for not turning over thier personal evidence when he snaps his fingers.

I dont know what paperwork or agreements he uses with his "employees/staff/volunteers" ( whatever word you want to call them) but if he has a covenant where anything they "discover" while under his auspices belongs to him- thats legitimate business as well. As an engineer, I always have to sign them with clients so if i discover/design/build something for them, it becomes their intellectual or physical property ( they even get to patent it)- even tho I "did" it- the client "owns" it because it was done under that agreement. Same thing with secrecy agreements. I dont know if he does these agreements, but I would be surprised if he didnt.

>>>He claims to have all kinds of evidence but refuses to share it with anyone. What he does share, he leaves much information out. Seems he changed this rule for that rich guy he was trying to get to finance his 'work'.

That too is a common business practice. When one has a company, "evidence" ( even non tangible stuff like intellectual property) has a value and thus is protected, spoon fed or talked about but never disclosed. ( just like the ingredient X in coke) Thats just business and when one lands a big "investor"- you do what the man with the money says.

>>>Several obviously fake photos or videos that he claims are real. Hoaxing is a type of con. That by itself is reason.

Businesses make these claims all the time. Watch any infomercial. Its not a "con" as much as selective and careful marketing. ( make sure you dont cross the lines of false advertising)

LT, I think you've got the BFRO pegged spot on. The BFRO is a business and not a scientific venture. That's why I think it really is not in their best interest to find the guy (or at least if they do keep it a secret) because when Sas is discovered, they will be pushed out by the legitimate scientific organizations. As Dudlow pointed out, they will have their database, but my opinion is that it is full of enough junk data so as to render it by and large useless for scientific inquiry.

I got that impression when i contacted them and honestly, from a business perspective, if they did actually "catch" a BF- it would make perfect sense for them to keep it a secret, study it, get all the data they could BEFORE they released it to the public. I would do the exact same thing. That would put them at the top of the food chain as far as marketing the fruits of their research. That would be a good business decision.

You know what, that's just made me think, I wonder what the pharmaceutical and medical dollar value would be of a close hominid relative, in private hands... if for example certain genetic sequences proved resistant to certain human diseases, were compatible with the human equivalents, and were patentable as a gene replacement therapy treatment or something like that ...

I've seen no evidence of Matt hoaxing anybody. I do believe a subset of the BFRO folks are a little too quick to accept particular experiences or evidence as indicative of Bigfoot and then promote it as such, Matt in particular.

Individual members of the BFRO run the gamut as far as the skeptical/credulous spectrum.

I don't think there has to be any hoaxing. Your in the woods at night wildlife vocals, eye shine from different animals and etc. It may not take much to convene someone that the bared owl or coyote vocal is something else or that eye shine from a deer is a possible BF.

I paid a fishing guide a large sum of money and caught not one fish, but I did not feel like it was a con. It is a race to get proof like I said before it may be MM and his $$$ or the lone researcher sitting in the woods, its wide open. But still that ends nothing, the BFRO wont just say oh well they got one, off to Loch Ness. For me it would be advantegious to have some sort of scientific degree so when CNN puts you on TV you can be Matt Moneymaker Paleothrologist instead of Matt Moneymaker Bigfoot hunter, then you are still in the game with some credibility in the scientific community and maybe tap into some of that govt. "research" money.

Everything I said about MM were things I read on various posts on this forum. From people getting the boot for not turning over evidence to him, hoarding evidence, to hoax photos and expeditions. If any of these activities alluded to by other members of this forum are true, I hardly consider what he does to be 'business practices'. If they are not true, should I then disregard everything people say on this forum as not being true? I have yet to read one post on this forum that puts MM in a good light. Yet I get critisized for doing the same.

Worth repeating.

He was indoctrinated well. Landmark.

Hey John, we're talking BFRO not Biscardi here.

Would you kindly point out a thread where someone says they were kicked out of the BFRO for not turning over evidence to MM? It's possible that happened, but I honestly can't remember anyone making that statement.

Py- that was pretty good

J- I think their was one instance here where a gentlemen no longer with us claimed he was booted from the group because he wouldn't share evidence with Wally? I'm unaware of the exact circumstances so I can't personally comment. In fairness, I know others have been kicked out for other lesser reasons such as their association with former curators who departed willingly or unwillingly and had previously recommended or brought them into the group initially-certainly not in all circumstances, but some, regrettably a while back and that's something I'm admittedly not proud of nor thrilled about. However, as far as evidential matters are concerned, the policy has always been the find goes with the finder and that's always been the case from previous circumstances I'm aware of. One exception (which I absolutely agree with and would be likely considered a mutual find) is if thermal footage was produced (for example) with the use of the borrowed equipment that many of us have been generously given access too- but really that's more than fair imo and a no-brainer.
As far as hoaxing evidence is concerned, it absolutely isn't happening in this group and should someone be proven to participate in any such activities they will admittedly be booted from our group-without question. I appreciate you J and Paul setting aside personal feelings regarding MM and setting the record straight here regarding those unfounded accusations.
Unfortuneatly, the BFRO is often understandably seen or perceived as one thinking head and is often generalized as such. In reality, as many here do know, that's not the case at all as the same variables exist in our group as any other group. Those variables include individuals with varying degrees of experience, beliefs and abilities. In my case, my opinion has always been asked for and or received. Doesn't mean I always get my way or agree with everything that may come out of our "camp," but I've never felt that I wasn't appreciated or respected by Matt or any current or former members, nor have I ever been persecuted for my beliefs or voice. Judaculla is someone I have a great deal of respect for and I concur 110% with his above assessment.

Thanks for that Bart. Oh yes, I know that people have been kicked out by MM for any number of things. I just want people who are making claims, especially those who haven't publicly acknowledged any association with the group, to back up their accusations. All of us who were members of the BFRO at one time or another, and have left or been 'expelled' for one reason or another, have been open about the reasons we're no longer a part of the org. I'm not thrilled about much that has happened to many good people where the BFRO and MM are concerned. But, I still need to see some evidence from those who make these claims who haven't even been a part of the group.

I'm just funny that way!

who?

Biscardi, it's a kind of flaky pastry that's full of air.

I thought it was about what I said about MM NOT the BFRO. I have read hundreds of threads and thousands of posts since being here. I cannot remember where I read any particular thing. I do not jump form one forum to another so I am sure everything I said I heard on the forum somewhere. I have tried to use the search option before with poor results. I have no idea how I could use it to find any particular post. The obvious place I would have seen it is the 'BFRO Moneyman' thread. But that wasn't it, I checked. Like I said before, I based my opinion based on things I have read on various posts here on BFF. If the information I read was wrong then....... Well like I said, I have yet to read anything good about him here, and there has been a lot written. Including accusations of staging events during these paid camping trips. (multiple times I might add.) If you go look at all the posts were MM is talked about and look at them from the view of someone who hasn't had much experience with him, you will see how he will be looked at as a con man. I am sure many people like myself have gotten the same impression of him. I just happened to say it.