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HarryHenderson
QUOTE(Bitter Monk @ Nov 28 2007, 06:31 PM) *
Not to say that you're getting over my head but... whoa. "Bulb"? "Aspirator"? What exactly would these be and how would I fit them in my field pack?

You're gonna have to make a choice son. Give up taking all those battery driven 'marital aids' along and start packin' actual Bigfoot Investigation Paraphenaliaâ„¢...sheesh!
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Bitter Monk @ Nov 28 2007, 09:44 PM) *
So, and just to make sure that I've got this right.

After thorough mixing of the material and prepping the track, a person would...

A - Fill the bulb with material

B - Apply by vertical "spits" instead of lateral pours (or spray via an aspirator*).

C - Establish a base coat covering all the surface detail using the "spit" method.

D - Pour a backing mold.

Correct?
* - Do you know of any small, compact aspirators that would be easily included in a pack?



The process is correct

we always used a bulb ( aspirators were for boundary agents, release agents) let me check and verify if aspirators exist for viscous liquids ( that would conflict with the term aspirator and I think I may have had a run on thought upthread- I may have used the terms incorrectly- if i did, I'll correct it)

I'll get back with you but the ones we has were about 6" and fit nicely in a pack ( we used cake decorating equipment) I also remember ( in training) using a bag with a tip cut off ( like decorating a cake with icing)

It doesnt matter what tool is employed- what matters is a top down gentle pour to cover the detail. After that, its just filling

QUOTE(HarryHenderson @ Nov 28 2007, 09:51 PM) *
You're gonna have to make a choice son. Give up taking all those battery driven 'marital aids' along and start packin' actual Bigfoot Investigation Paraphenalia_..sheesh!



shhh but the secret is to have a battery that fits all
Bitter Monk
QUOTE(HarryHenderson @ Nov 28 2007, 08:51 PM) *
You're gonna have to make a choice son. Give up taking all those battery driven 'marital aids' along and start packin' actual Bigfoot Investigation Paraphenalia_..sheesh!



How else do you expect me to vibrate the entrapped air out of the mix?
nightwing
QUOTE(Bitter Monk @ Nov 28 2007, 10:20 PM) *
How else do you expect me to vibrate the entrapped air out of the mix?

Somewhere out there..someone is thinking "you know..that's really NOT that bad of an idea!"
dogu4
That plastic bag method is slick. I've had to mess with plaster bunches in the past and I gave it a try on a quick home job where I needed a pint of plaster and provided you're sensible about the way you add the water and the dry mix so that slaking will occur (the plaster must be saturated to the correct degree), mixing gently by squishing doesn't entrain any air especially if you squeeze it out of the ziplock before you seal it...I then cut off a corner to apply to the space I was filling, but opening the zip for wide access would be a natural thing. It also eliminates a trashcan full of problems when doing this away from a workshop...pre-measure it....
Which brings to mind something not mentioned. My experience with plaster sometimes had to consider the tiny amount of shrinkage...it could be critical on certain jobs and so certain plasters were needed with specific coefficients and those were dependent on both the method of application and the precise water to plaster proportions. I don't know if this applies to getting a successfull cast, in fact I know it doesn't for most stuff, but it would be negligent scientifically to not capture that in any analysis on the dimensional aspects....etcetera.
damndirtyape
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 28 2007, 10:01 PM) *
The process is correct

we always used a bulb ( aspirators were for boundary agents, release agents) let me check and verify if aspirators exist for viscous liquids ( that would conflict with the term aspirator and I think I may have had a run on thought upthread- I may have used the terms incorrectly- if i did, I'll correct it)

I'll get back with you but the ones we has were about 6" and fit nicely in a pack ( we used cake decorating equipment) I also remember ( in training) using a bag with a tip cut off ( like decorating a cake with icing)

It doesnt matter what tool is employed- what matters is a top down gentle pour to cover the detail. After that, its just filling
shhh but the secret is to have a battery that fits all


Maybe you could show us a cast you have made using your method. I for one would be really interested in seeing the surface textures obtainable this way. Most tracks I have casted used between 10 and 17 lbs of plaster and the manufacturer recommends that for satisfactory results you pour plaster into water and not the other way around.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(damndirtyape @ Nov 28 2007, 10:36 PM) *
Maybe you could show us a cast you have made using your method. I for one would be really interested in seeing the surface textures obtainable this way. Most tracks I have casted used between 10 and 17 lbs of plaster and the manufacturer recommends that for satisfactory results you pour plaster into water and not the other way around.


First of all, pay attention to detail and it may help your casting technique- I NEVER said pour water into the media- now that we have solved that.

I dont cast 'tracks" ( not in recent history anyway) but I have worked on castings from alternator /starter housings to pistons with tolerances into the thousandths and finishes into the microns.

So what do you need to know or tell me what you are doing and I"ll be happy to assist you in advancing your technique and help you get better ones.

I'll ask you- you obviously have plenty of representations of "holes' in the ground- what have you gleaned from them thats 'earth shattering' or definitive? If your answer is ZERO, then let me know and lets see if we can fix that using better and more advanced methods.
Hominid,WA
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 28 2007, 08:12 PM) *
First of all, pay attention to detail and it may help your casting technique- I NEVER said pour water into the media- now that we have solved that.

I dont cast 'tracks" ( not in recent history anyway) but I have worked on castings from alternator /starter housings to pistons with tolerances into the thousandths and finishes into the microns.

So what do you need to know or tell me what you are doing and I"ll be happy to assist you in advancing your technique and help you get better ones.

I'll ask you- you obviously have plenty of representations of "holes' in the ground- what have you gleaned from them thats 'earth shattering' or definitive? If your answer is ZERO, then let me know and lets see if we can fix that using better and more advanced methods.




Easy pal. I'd tread with some caution here, otherwise any worthwhile points you bring up on this board will get lost in your pretentiousness. annoyed.gif
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Hominid,WA @ Nov 28 2007, 11:30 PM) *
Easy pal. I'd tread with some caution here, otherwise any worthwhile points you bring up on this board will get lost in your pretentiousness. annoyed.gif



Under normal circumstances i would agree ( then again, under normal circumstances, I wouldnt have made such a post)

Its not pretentiousness, I can assure you.
Blackdog
Yeah that would suck if we actually learned how to do something better, the results up to date have been far less than conclusive no matter what your definition of conclusive is.


Don't tread on me
Bitter Monk
Is that Saint Udderus or Saint Bovinous?
JohnCartwright
Kewl..this Longtabber guy is taking all the heat off of me.

coverlaugh.gif
damndirtyape
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 28 2007, 11:12 PM) *
First of all, pay attention to detail and it may help your casting technique- I NEVER said pour water into the media- now that we have solved that.

I dont cast 'tracks" ( not in recent history anyway) but I have worked on castings from alternator /starter housings to pistons with tolerances into the thousandths and finishes into the microns.

So what do you need to know or tell me what you are doing and I"ll be happy to assist you in advancing your technique and help you get better ones.

I'll ask you- you obviously have plenty of representations of "holes' in the ground- what have you gleaned from them thats 'earth shattering' or definitive? If your answer is ZERO, then let me know and lets see if we can fix that using better and more advanced methods.


Casting against metal or other non-porous substrates is quite different. It is also a fact that weather plays a big part in what your plaster does. Temperature, sunlight contact and humidity are usually controlled in industry.

I haven't really had a problem in the casting part of this effort. Been using the material and industrial tooling standard practices since the mid 70's... daily. Microns huh!?

Pretty sure of your self I see. Just read the entire thread here and see no advanced methods proposed by you, only impractical ones. By the time you got enough plaster mixed and into a baster/bulb apparatus it would be kicking. The thicker the plaster mix the less surface detail (unless you are casting metal or some other non-porous substrate). Thicker plaster will fold over itself and create artifacts. Spread out over a surface; plaster dries quicker then in chemically cures. Placed in a compact volume container the opposite is true. Then you have to clean the baster/bulb. I won't even go into the chicken wire stuff as others already mentioned it. Arresting surface particle movement is problematic and with most tracks unnecessary since they were made in moist soil conditions. Snow wax is ok to use but not really necessary either, if you know what your doing. It would have been more important for you to have mentioned at what water temperatures you do all of these advanced techniques at.

Your postings remind me of someone else on the board but from the past.
SgtFang
Here's an aspirator, AKA "Snot sucker" coverlaugh.gif



These can be found in the baby aisle of pretty much any store. smile.gif

-Sarge

Rick, what do you think of moving up to a high grade silicone for track casting? Granted it's a lot more expensive, but it'll capture fingerprints on a sheet of glass too.

-Sarge
Hominid,WA
QUOTE(Blackdog @ Nov 28 2007, 08:56 PM) *
Yeah that would suck if we actually learned how to do something better, the results up to date have been far less than conclusive no matter what your definition of conclusive is.
Don't tread on me



I'm all for learning on this forum, but if someone doesn't keep his cool, he's eventually gonna go bye-bye. (we've seen it happen to others here before) Nothing can be learned from snide remarks that don't foster further progressive dialogue, especially to seasoned researchers he has yet to converse with. It automatically puts the recipients on the defensive, and not much can be learned from that. Since you Blackdog, seem so strongly to have taken up the sidekick role here, might you persuade him?

In response to the photo you've posted, I do have a picture of my own, and if I may..... red's definately not your color.



Click to view attachment
uffda320
I'm enjoying reading LT's posts. I think it's great to have a new person onboard, with a new way of looking at this mystery.
Hairy Man
As I have already stated, I follow Rick's methods which have never failed me yet (as well as Rick himself).

And as the wise Hominid,WA so well pointed out...sacred cow or not, there is no reason to be a jerk. I can't hear what you are saying if I don't like you...and if you are right, let the truth speak for you (just some humble advice that I know I should follow as well).
colobus
Jeez. Play nice.
Melissa
QUOTE(DDA)
Casting against metal or other non-porous substrates is quite different. It is also a fact that weather plays a big part in what your plaster does. Temperature, sunlight contact and humidity are usually controlled in industry.

I haven't really had a problem in the casting part of this effort. Been using the material and industrial tooling standard practices since the mid 70's... daily. Microns huh!?

Pretty sure of your self I see. Just read the entire thread here and see no advanced methods proposed by you, only impractical ones. By the time you got enough plaster mixed and into a baster/bulb apparatus it would be kicking. The thicker the plaster mix the less surface detail (unless you are casting metal or some other non-porous substrate). Thicker plaster will fold over itself and create artifacts. Spread out over a surface; plaster dries quicker then in chemically cures. Placed in a compact volume container the opposite is true. Then you have to clean the baster/bulb. I won't even go into the chicken wire stuff as others already mentioned it. Arresting surface particle movement is problematic and with most tracks unnecessary since they were made in moist soil conditions. Snow wax is ok to use but not really necessary either, if you know what your doing. It would have been more important for you to have mentioned at what water temperatures you do all of these advanced techniques at.

Your postings remind me of someone else on the board but from the past.


iagree.gif
Bitter Monk
QUOTE(Hairy Man @ Nov 29 2007, 12:21 AM) *
I can't hear what you are saying if I don't like you...



As disappointing as that was to hear come from you I think you just summed up this thread.
dogu4
I'm finding what seem to me to be interesting paralells between this thread and last night's Monsterquest, which I think kinda reflect the basic bi-modal operational characteristics of the species, (women singing lullabyes versus men with horses and guns)and that might explain the way we view the universe and its phenomenon. The nice thing is that the inherent biases and conflict that results, just like the destructive explosions inside a piston, result in progress (not just the raw definition of work) IF the mechanism is engaged...and in this case I hope it hasn't stopped due to the perception that someone's toes are being stepped on...of courrse it would feel different if they were my toes.
If my car could talk would it tell me that the brake peddle is in a state of constant war with the gas peddle? If it was anything like human beings I think they would, and they they'd try to convince me to give them the contol of the steering wheel.
Melissa
QUOTE(Blackdog)
Yeah that would suck if we actually learned how to do something better, the results up to date have been far less than conclusive no matter what your definition of conclusive is.


Hey,,, no one is telling you to not listen to Longtabber. I frankly dont care how much chickenwire you use. You can buy a case of Baby snot suckers - thats your decision. Its your research, and evidence, knock yourself out.

All this sounds like to me is re-inventing the wheel. Heck before you know it, he will be suggesting we all start using wire brushes to clean casts - hey, they will get more of the dirt off them smile.gif LOL.

This isnt about High Horses either - at least not for me. Its about the truth, and how to get there. Not bring in more smoke and mirrors or methods that are old and out dated. I want to move forward - not watch as this entire field reverts back 10-20 years. Thats where the chickenwire is taking you.

Learning is good - I am all for learning. But, I want to learn something new, something that moves me forward. Im tired of looking back all the time.
Blackdog
QUOTE(Hominid,WA @ Nov 29 2007, 12:04 AM) *
I'm all for learning on this forum, but if someone doesn't keep his cool, he's eventually gonna go bye-bye. (we've seen it happen to others here before) Nothing can be learned from snide remarks that don't foster further progressive dialogue, especially to seasoned researchers he has yet to converse with. It automatically puts the recipients on the defensive, and not much can be learned from that. Since you Blackdog, seem so strongly to have taken up the sidekick role here, might you persuade him?

In response to the photo you've posted, I do have a picture of my own, and if I may..... red's definately not your color.

I'm sorry but are opinions no longer welcome on this forum? Who's going Bye-Bye, me or LT and how is that your decision? I don't see a title next to your name.
I've seen snide remarks from both sides of the fence on this thread, I guess you missed that.

QUOTE
...especially to seasoned researchers he has yet to converse with.

And that means exactly what? How could you possibly know the extent or quality of the research of anyone here? Does the time in the field, or the time talking about it, qualify anyone as seasoned? I always assumed it was the quality of the work. Maybe your definition is the time on this board or the number of posts. If that's the case I've got you beat on both parts, so maybe I should be offended.
Besides what makes that person any better than anyone else? Are they immune to criticism or even protected from it? Since no one has any proof or even definitive evidence yet I guess I was under the assumption that we all had a lot to learn yet.
You're welcome to have your heros but be careful how high you build that pedestal... the higher the perch the longer the fall.
Blackdog
QUOTE(Melissa @ Nov 29 2007, 08:56 AM) *
Hey,,, no one is telling you to not listen to Longtabber. I frankly dont care how much chickenwire you use. You can buy a case of Baby snot suckers - thats your decision. Its your research, and evidence, knock yourself out.

All this sounds like to me is re-inventing the wheel. Heck before you know it, he will be suggesting we all start using wire brushes to clean casts - hey, they will get more of the dirt off them smile.gif LOL.

This isnt about High Horses either - at least not for me. Its about the truth, and how to get there. Not bring in more smoke and mirrors or methods that are old and out dated. I want to move forward - not watch as this entire field reverts back 10-20 years. Thats where the chickenwire is taking you.

Learning is good - I am all for learning. But, I want to learn something new, something that moves me forward. Im tired of looking back all the time.

I'm sorry Mel I guess I missed seeing the high quality sasquatch casts that you are responsible for. What method did you use when you cast those?
Melissa
One which had better detail was casted using the splash casting method (not shown on the program) the second track had much less detail - and was more of a "blob" I casted it anyway - as it fell in line with the first track. That I simply casted, as I felt there was no possible way any details would be shown in the finished product - as there were no visible definition contained in the track.

I can also tell you - No Chickenwire was used in the casting of any tracks on this episode of Monsterquest. smile.gif
longtabber PE
QUOTE(damndirtyape @ Nov 29 2007, 12:46 AM) *
Casting against metal or other non-porous substrates is quite different. It is also a fact that weather plays a big part in what your plaster does. Temperature, sunlight contact and humidity are usually controlled in industry.

I haven't really had a problem in the casting part of this effort. Been using the material and industrial tooling standard practices since the mid 70's... daily. Microns huh!?

Pretty sure of your self I see. Just read the entire thread here and see no advanced methods proposed by you, only impractical ones. By the time you got enough plaster mixed and into a baster/bulb apparatus it would be kicking. The thicker the plaster mix the less surface detail (unless you are casting metal or some other non-porous substrate). Thicker plaster will fold over itself and create artifacts. Spread out over a surface; plaster dries quicker then in chemically cures. Placed in a compact volume container the opposite is true. Then you have to clean the baster/bulb. I won't even go into the chicken wire stuff as others already mentioned it. Arresting surface particle movement is problematic and with most tracks unnecessary since they were made in moist soil conditions. Snow wax is ok to use but not really necessary either, if you know what your doing. It would have been more important for you to have mentioned at what water temperatures you do all of these advanced techniques at.

Your postings remind me of someone else on the board but from the past.



OK, I'm back- lets do this by the numbers

>>>Casting against metal or other non-porous substrates is quite different. It is also a fact that weather plays a big part in what your plaster does. Temperature, sunlight contact and humidity are usually controlled in industry.

I never said otherwise- I spoke in general terms

>>>I haven't really had a problem in the casting part of this effort. Been using the material and industrial tooling standard practices since the mid 70's... daily. Microns huh!?

This isnt about "problems" but results- ( Microns was in relation to finish and dimension- not so much detail) Its not about the "difficulty" on casting ( anyone can pour slop in a hole)- its about results

>>>Pretty sure of your self I see.

YES i am- that seems to bother you

>>>Just read the entire thread here and see no advanced methods proposed by you, only impractical ones.

I didnt propose "advanced" methods in a post ( rather basic technique) and theres nothing "impractical' about it. You just dont like being upstaged.

>>>By the time you got enough plaster mixed and into a baster/bulb apparatus it would be kicking. The thicker the plaster mix the less surface detail (unless you are casting metal or some other non-porous substrate).

In your dreams unless a person is totally incompetent

>>>The thicker the plaster mix the less surface detail (unless you are casting metal or some other non-porous substrate). Thicker plaster will fold over itself and create artifacts. Spread out over a surface; plaster dries quicker then in chemically cures.

spare me your non expertise- ( its obvious you learned this on the fly)- you "create" artifacts by mainly bubbles- not by the pour ( unless you slop it)

>> Placed in a compact volume container the opposite is true. Then you have to clean the baster/bulb.

Cleaning is a part of the process and "compact volume" container is a big word term for a bag minus the air

>>>I won't even go into the chicken wire stuff as others already mentioned it.

good idea, they are arguing nothing and so would you be

>>>Arresting surface particle movement is problematic and with most tracks unnecessary since they were made in moist soil conditions. Snow wax is ok to use but not really necessary either, if you know what your doing.

I'm certainly NOT convinced you know what you are doing- its not about surface particle movement but the correct covering of the print. ( heres a hint and read upthread- snow wax is for snow- not everything else)

>>>It would have been more important for you to have mentioned at what water temperatures you do all of these advanced techniques at.

I didnt promote that aspect because this was just good advice, not a complete tutorial

You just dont like it because someone else steals your "thunder" and maybe that lowers you on the food chain- see, I'm not here to be a "BF" "expert"( or whatever that means) and i dont have a vested interest in being "recognized"

You ( as expected) dont like potentially losing that "position"- I dont have that problem- dont sharp shoot me when I'm speaking in generalities ( if you want to- start a thread in specifics and I'll do the sharpshooting for you and send you to school)

I have yet to see anything you have said that suggests to me you have anything but a very basic knowledge ( unless one consoders your tenure in the BF field- which I personally do not)
jasonch1112
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 28 2007, 07:01 PM) *
The process is correct

we always used a bulb ( aspirators were for boundary agents, release agents) let me check and verify if aspirators exist for viscous liquids ( that would conflict with the term aspirator and I think I may have had a run on thought upthread- I may have used the terms incorrectly- if i did, I'll correct it)


Wouldn't that be basically the same thing they sell to help you keep baby's noses clear? They are relatively cheap, easy to find, and can easily fit into a pack. And they are definitely designed for viscous fluids.
mkianni
If I'm reading this correctly, mechanical mixing is better than mixing by hand?

If so, I have a few suggestions for a light weight compact cordless drill that can easily be carried in the field.
Click to view attachment
And small mixing attachment.
Click to view attachment


I use a similar set up on the job site when required to mix drywall compound, only bigger.
Click to view attachment
Larger attachment I use on the job.
Click to view attachment

http://www.makita.com/menu.php?pg=product_...cl_driverHammer

There are many companies that manufacture cordless products, and many I'm sure are cheaper than Makita. As far as job site performance for everyday use, I stick with the better brand names when it comes to tools.
If you're not going to use it a lot, a cheaper cordless drill will suffice I'm sure.
RedRatSnake
Hi

Since were talking tools here thumbup.gif I love this little guy, i use it everyday as a drill and screw fastener, it can be used for just about anything, very small but has a punch


Makita 18V Cordless LXT Lithium-Ion 1/4" Impact Driver

Peace
Tim
mkianni
I agree, one of my favorites for decks and tough jobs.
But a little pricey if you're only going to use it for occasionally mixing casting material in the field.

The last one I bought about two months ago from a local supplier cost me a little over $300.00.
RedRatSnake
QUOTE(mkianni @ Apr 27 2008, 10:53 PM) *
I agree, one of my favorites for decks and tough jobs.
But a little pricey if you're only going to use it for occasionally mixing casting material in the field.

The last one I bought about two months ago from a local supplier cost me a little over $300.00.


Hi

Ya thats me spend what i don't have on tools, The Snap-On guy loves me, I got a sweet deal on the drill and fasterner for 260.00 at Home Depot around Christmas, As you know when it comes to that stuff ya got to have the s**t that works .......... none of the cheap crap on the job it just don't last, Then your out buying 2 and 3 times

Peace
Tim
mkianni
QUOTE(redratsnake @ Apr 27 2008, 09:01 PM) *
I got a sweet deal on the drill and fasterner for 260.00 at Home Depot around Christmas


That is good!
I payed top dollar and it's not even the upgraded version you have pictured.
The two I have are 18V but they're blue not black, and there's no drill feature, impact only, so you have to push down on the fastener to activate the tool.

I got beat. icon_cry.gif
chrisandclauida2
Evidence Collection Guidelines

This document provides evidence collection guidelines for the following types of
evidence. Your agency's policies may vary. Please check with your supervisor if
you have any questions.

Contents
Blood Stains
Seminal Stains
Hair
Fibers and Threads
Glass
Paint
Flammable Liquids
Firearms Evidence
Tool Marks
Controlled Substances and Medicinal Preparations
Questioned Documents
Latent Fingerprints





Blood Stains
Blood that is in liquid pools should be picked up on a gauze pad or other clean
sterile cotton cloth and allowed to air dry thoroughly, at room temperature. It
should be refrigerated or frozen as soon as possible and brought to the
Laboratory as quickly as possible. Delays beyond 48 hours may make the samples
useless.


If close to the Laboratory, deliver stained object immediately.


If unable to deliver to the Laboratory, or if the object must be mailed, allow
the stain to air dry completely before packaging.


Do not heat stained material or place it in bright sunlight to dry. Hang
clothing and similar articles in a room where there is adequate ventilation.


If not completely dry, label and roll in paper or place in a brown paper bag
or box and seal and label container. Place only one item in each container. Do
not use plastic containers.


Dried Blood Stains
On clothing, if possible, wrap the item in clean paper, place the article in a
brown paper bag or box and seal and label container. Do not attempt to remove
stains from the cloth.


On small solid objects, send the whole stained object to the Laboratory, after
labeling and packaging.


On large solid objects, cover the stained area with clean paper and seal the
edges down with tape to prevent loss or contamination. If impractical to
deliver the whole object to the Laboratory, scrape the stain onto a clean
piece of paper, which can be folded and placed in an envelope. Do not scrape
directly into evidence envelope. Scrape blood from objects using a freshly
washed and dried knife or similar tool. Wash and dry the tool before each
stain is scraped off. Seal and mark the envelope.


Do not mix dried stains. Place each stain in a separate envelope.


Never attempt to wipe dried stains from an object using a moistened cloth or
paper.
Standard Blood Specimens
Autopsy Blood Samples

Request that pathologist obtain the sample directly from the heart into a yellow
(ACD) or purple stoppered vacutainer (some labs request both). In rare cases
when no liquid blood is available, ask pathologist to collect a section of
liver, bone, and/or deep muscle tissue and freeze for typing. In such cases,
proceed also with collection of a secondary standard as described below.

Blood Samples From Live Individuals

For typing purposes, have sample drawn into yellow and purple stoppered
vacutainers. Note these are distinguished from the BA tubes which have grey
stoppers.

If the victim is injured to the extent that a transfusion is necessary, make an
effort to obtain or begin necessary procedures to obtain the pre-transfusion
sample collected by the hospital. These samples are not retained for long
periods by the hospital, so it is important to act promptly. Also, make sure
that some bloodstained garment worn by the individual has been air dried and
frozen to serve as a secondary standard.


Handling and Storage of Physiological Fluid Evidence
(Obligation under People vs Nation and Hitch that a reasonable and good faith
effort be made to preserve perishable evidence)

Stains and Controls
Air dry
Package in paper
Freeze
Consider special handling of non-absorbent items on (metal or plastic). Any
condensation from thawing could disturb or destroy such evidence. Such items
should be kept at room temperature and submitted to the lab as soon as possible.

Liquids (generally standards)

Blood
Refrigerate, do not freeze standards collected in yellow stoppered
vacutainers.


Submit to the lab as soon as possible.
Saliva
Collect on a sterile gauze pad or swabs, allow to air dry and package in
paper. Do not use plastic containers.





Seminal Stains
Seminal stains are often, but not always, found on clothing, blankets, sheets.
Allow any stains to air dry, wrap in paper, and package evidence in paper
bags. Do not use plastic bags.


For sex offense cases, the victim should always be examined by a physician. A
Sexual Assault Evidence Collection Kit is used to collect evidence from the
victim. It is very important that the instructions on the kit be followed with
care in order to gain the greatest benefit from the collected evidence.


Label all garments such as undershorts, panties, or other exhibits and package
each garment separately.


If damp, allow fabric to dry completely before packaging.


Handle fabrics as little as possible.





Hair
An examination of human hair can occasionally reveal the possible race of the
individual from whom it came and the part of the body from which it
originated.


Human hair can be compared to determine whether or not two samples could have
had a common origin. The value of the Laboratory examinations of such
specimens will depend upon the amount of hair recovered and the
characteristics found in the examinations.


Recover all hair present. If possible, use the fingers or tweezers to pick up
hair, place in paper bindles or coin envelopes which should then be folded and
sealed in larger envelopes. Label the outer sealed envelope.


If hair is attached, such as in dry blood, or caught in metal or a crack of
glass, do not attempt to remove it but rather leave hair intact on the object.
If the object is small, mark it, wrap it, and seal it in an envelope. If the
object is large, wrap the area containing the hair in paper to prevent loss of
hairs during shipment.


In rape cases, the victim's pubic region should be combed prior to collecting
standards. Obtain known hair samples from the victim, suspect, or any other
possible sources for comparison with unknown specimens. The recommended method
for collecting head hairs is to start by having the person from whom they are
being collected bend over a large sheet of clean paper, rubbing or massaging
their hands through the hair so that loose hair will fall out on the paper.
More should then be gathered by plucking them from representative areas all
over the head. A total or 50-100 hairs is desired. Do not cut the hair. This
same method may be used to collect hairs from other parts of the body. 30-60
pubic hairs are required. When the person is a suspect, hair should be
gathered from all parts of the body even though there may only be an interest
in hair from the head at that particular time.





Fibers and Threads
Such evidence is often found in fabric abrasions or caught in torn materials
or other areas on hit-and-run vehicles. In some burglary cases, it may be
found caught in torn screens, broken glass, or other locations .


Examination of fibers can normally be conducted to determine the type or color
of fiber. Such examinations will sometimes indicate the type of garment or
fabric from which they originated.


Fibers and threads can also be compared with suspects clothing to determine
whether or not they could have come from this clothing.


If threads or large fibers are found, they can often be picked up with the
fingers and placed in a paper bindle, then in a coin envelope, which can be
sealed and marked. Never place loose fibers directly into a mailing envelope
since they can be lost from this type of envelope.


If the fibers are short or few in number, and if it is possible to do so, wrap
the area or the entire item containing the fibers in paper and send the whole
exhibit to the Laboratory.


Pick up fibers on tape only if the laboratory in your jurisdiction allows it
and gives you its requirements. When fibers or threads are recovered, always
send all clothing of persons from which they might have originated to the
Laboratory for comparison purposes.


In sex offenses, assaults, and some other cases, it may be possible to
indicate or demonstrate contact between two individuals or between one other
individual and some other object, such as a car seat, by comparing fibers.
Such examinations are only of value when it is known no contact occurred
between the two individuals or an individual and some other object prior to,
or subsequent to, the offense. Extra care must be taken to keep each article
of clothing of each individual or other object separated. Each garment should
be-laid on a clean sheet of paper, and separately rolled up in the paper after
marking the exhibit. If the clothing of one subject touches the clothing of
another, or if it is laid down on the table of placed on the car seat
contacted by the clothing of the other suspect, the comparisons may be of no
value.





Glass
Windows are frequently broken in burglaries, headlights in hit-and-run cases,
and bottles or other objects may break or leave fragments on personal belongings
of suspects involved in various types of crimes.


Recovery of Evidence Samples
Shoes and clothing of suspects or other objects contaminated with glass should
be wrapped in paper and submitted to the Laboratory for examination.


All glass found at hit-and-run scenes should be recovered. The search should
not be limited to the point of impact, since headlight glass may be dropped
off at some distance away as the car leaves the crime scene. Glass from
different locations should be kept in different containers. All glass should
be collected because more than one type may be present. In addition, if just a
few representative samples are saved, individual pieces that could be
physically matched with glass remaining in the headlight shell of the
suspected vehicle may be overlooked.


Place small glass fragments in paper bindles, then in coin envelopes, pill
boxes, or film cans which can be marked and completely sealed.


Place large glass fragments in boxes. Separate individual pieces with cotton
or tissue to prevent breakage and damaged edges during shipment. Seal and mark
the box containing them.
Standards for Comparison
Windows: If the broken window is small, send the whole window or all glass
remaining to the Laboratory. If the window is large, recover several samples
from different areas of the window. If the evidence glass is large enough for
physically matching the broken edges or comparing the fracture lines, hackle
marks, surface abrasions or contamination, the whole broken window is
necessary.


Auto Glass - Auto Headlights: All glass remaining in the shell should be
recovered. If it is suspected that a new glass has been installed, this should
be removed and a careful examination made for small chips remaining in the
shell from the previous lens which is broken. In such cases, also submit the
new lens to the Laboratory.


Other Glass: When bottles or other glass objects are broken, recover all
remaining glass.
Headlights and Taillights of Motor Vehicles
As part of the investigation of vehicle accidents, it may be of importance to
determine whether or not a headlight or taillight was illuminated at the time
the light was broken.


Recovery of the filaments is of primary importance. These are quite small and
their location may require a careful search. If recovered, they should be
placed in a paper bindle or a small pill box sealed with tape. Whether or not
the large filaments are located, all remaining parts of the lamp socket, glass
envelope, or sealed beam headlight unit should be wrapped in paper and saved
for Laboratory study.





Paint
Paint evidence is frequently encountered in hit-and run cases, on tools used by
burglars, and occasionally in other types of cases.


Hit-and-Run Cases
Paint may be transferred to clothing of pedestrian victims . Examine all
areas, with particular attention being paid to areas showing pressure glaze,
tears, or other contact.


If found, do not remove the paint, but mark the garment, carefully wrap it by
rolling it in paper and send it to the Laboratory.


Such paint will at least show the color of part of the responsible car. It
must be remembered, however, that many modern cars have more than one color
and the paint transferred only represents the color of the particular area on
the car that made contact with the victims.


Rarely will an examination of paint transfer on clothing indicate the make and
model of the vehicle involved, since only portions of the top oxidized layer
on the cars are usually transferred. In addition, many vehicles are repainted
using colors and types of paint which may be different from those specified by
the automobile manufacturer. The color and type of paint selected by the car
owner for repainting his vehicle may also be the same as that used by a
different automobile manufacturer, which could cause confusion in the search
for the responsible car.


Sometimes whole chips of paint will be transferred to the clothing. If these
flakes contain several layers, and in particular if they come from a repainted
car, such evidence may have great value when the responsible vehicle is
located. Chips of paint may also be found on the ground near the point of
impact in some cases.


Obtain samples for comparison from all areas showing fresh damage on suspected
vehicles. This is very important since the paint may be different in type or
composition in different areas, even if the color is the same. If the paint
can be flaked off by bending the metal slightly, remove it in this manner. If
not, scrape or chip the paint off, using a clean knife blade. Carefully wipe
the blade before collecting each sample. Collect all layers down to the metal.
Place each sample in a separate container.


Cross transfers of paint commonly occur in hit and-run cases of two or more
vehicles. If loose paint chips are found, attempt to remove and place them in
a paper bindle. If, however, the transfers are smeared on the surfaces, flake
off chips or scrape paint from the vehicle, including the transferred paint,
as well as the top layer of paint originally on the car. Keep all transfers
recovered from different areas in separate containers. Do NOT place samples
directly into envelopes -- place into paper bindles first.


When cross transfers occur, always collect contaminated samples from each
vehicle from areas immediately adjacent to each transfer collected. This is of
great importance, since such specimens permit the laboratory to distinguish
between the transferred paint and the paint originally present on the vehicle.

Burglary Cases
Tools used to gain entry into building, safes, or other places often contain
traces of paint, as well as other substances, such as plastic, safe
insulation, etc. Care must be taken that such traces are not lost. If such
transfers may be present, wrap the end of the tool containing the material in
clean paper and seal with tape to prevent loss. In no case should attempts be
made to set the tool into marks or impressions found. If this is done,
transfers of paint or material can occur and any traces found later will have
no significance as evidence.


Collect specimens of paint from all areas which the tools may have contacted
at the crime scene. These samples should include all layers present. Do not
destroy the tool mark in collecting the paint. If possible, cut out around the
mark, and send it to the Laboratory.


The tool itself may contain paint or other coatings, tracings of which may be
left at the crime scene. A careful search should be made for such matters,
particularly in each tool mark.
Collection and Preservation of Paint Specimens
Keep all samples collected in separate containers.


Small paper bindles can be used to collect and hold many paint samples. A
satisfactory method is to tape one side of the bindle to the side of the
vehicle, building, or safe just under the area where the sample is to be
collected. By holding the bindle open with one hand, and using a clean knife
blade, paint can be scraped loose and into the bindle. With-the sample in the
bindle, scotch tape can be removed and the open end of the bindle folded
several times. It can be placed in a coin or mailing envelope, which can be
marked and sealed. Scotch tape may be used to seal the bindle, but such
containers should never be stapled.


Glass vials or other suitable containers are used only as a last resort.


Never place paint directly into envelopes unless large pieces are enclosed.
Most envelopes have unsealed cracks in the corners and loss or contamination
can occur.





Flammable Fluids
The search for flammable fluids in arson cases should include a thorough
examination of the entire fire scene. This should extend to areas where no
burning occurs, since flammable fluids may have been placed in other locations
where ignition failed.

Traces of flammable fluid may be found in cans at the fire scene in arson cases.
Mattresses, rugs, upholstery, wallboard, and other objects at the scene may also
contain fluids which can be separated and identified in the Laboratory, even
though these objects are partially burned. Wood upon which such fluids have been
poured and ignited may still contain detectable traces of the liquid, if the
wood has not been completely charred by the fire. Even where a large and hot
fire has occurred, traces of such liquid are sometimes found where they have
seeped into the ground through cracks in the floor or flowed under baseboards
and sills.

While most flammable fluids commonly used have characteristic odors, some
substances commonly available are almost odorless and quite easily escape
detection. These include some alcohols, deodorized kerosene, charcoal lighter
fluids, and others.


If volatile liquids are found in open containers, pour a small amount of the
material into a clean glass vial with an airtight seal so no loss will occur.
Do not use any rubber-lined lids or plastic containers.


Small samples of soil, wood, cloth, paper, etc., should be placed in small,
clean metal cans and sealed immediately to prevent loss of additional volatile
components by evaporation.


Large pieces of wood, upholstery, wallboard, and similar exhibits which will
not fit in cans should be placed in heat-sealed KAPAK plastic. Be sure the
Laboratory has examined a sample of the plastic from each order before you use
it.


When the exhibits themselves can be marked, this should be done. In all cases,
the package or container should be marked.


Samples of flammable fluids normally present at fire scenes should also be
submitted for comparison with any material recovered from partially burned
substances.


Samples of flammable fluids in the possession of any suspects should be
submitted for comparison purposes. This includes any clothing, rags, or other
materials which have suspicious stains or odors. These should be packaged in
the same manner as materials recovered at the fire scene.
It is possible, in many cases, to isolate flammable fluids from various,
partially burned articles through means of gas chromatographic analysis and
other studies to determine the type of flammable fluid present. Normally,
however, the manufacturer or brand name of the material cannot be determined.




Firearms Evidence
Firearms
Never submit a loaded gun to the Laboratory, unless it is delivered in person.
Unfired cartridges may be left in the magazine of a weapon, provided the
magazine is removed from the gun. A firearm with the cartridge in the chamber
should never be shipped by any method, even if the weapon is not cocked or on
safety.


Never clean the bore, chamber, or cylinder before submitting a firearm, and
never attempt to fire the gun before it is examined in the Laboratory.


Never pick up a weapon by placing a pencil or other object in the end of the
barrel.


Record serial number, make, model, and caliber of the weapon, and mark it in
some inconspicuous manner that does not detract from its value before sending
it to the Laboratory. Marking firearms is important since duplicate serial
numbers are sometimes found on different guns of the same make and general
type. Do not confuse model numbers or patent numbers with serial numbers.


Place weapons in strong cardboard or wooden boxes, well packed, to prevent
shifting of guns in transit.


Rifles or shotguns should not be taken apart.


If blood or any other material, which may pertain to an investigation is
present on the gun, place a clean paper around the gun and seal it with tape
to prevent movement of the gun and loss of the sample during shipment.


If the gun is to be examined for latent fingerprints, use procedures under
that title in this Manual.
Bullets
Never mark bullets.


Wrap recovered bullets in paper and seal in separate labeled pill boxes or
envelopes.


Submit all evidence bullets recovered to the Laboratory. A conclusive
identification may be possible on only one of several bullets recovered even
when they all appear to be in good condition.


Do not attempt to clean recovered bullets before sending them to the
Laboratory. Bullets recovered from a body should be air dried and wrapped in
paper. Washing may destroy trace evidence.
Cartridge Cases
Wrap recovered cartridge cases in and seal in separate labeled pill boxes or
envelopes.


Fired shotgun shells may be marked either on the inside or outside of the
paper or plastic portion of the shell.


If an examination is required to determine if a shot shell or cartridge case
was fired by a specific weapon, submit the weapon and all recovered unfired
ammunition.


Submit all evidence cartridge cases or shotgun shells recovered to the
Laboratory. Some cases contain more identifying detail than do others.


Wrap each cartridge in paper to prevent damaging the breech clock, firing pin,
or other markings by contact with other cartridge cases. Place wrapped
cartridge cases in envelopes or pill boxes. Label and seal container.
Ammunition
Always attempt to recover unused ammunition for comparison purposes when
firearms are obtained as evidence. If not in the weapon itself, subjects often
have additional ammunition in their cars, clothing, houses, or other
locations. It may be important for test purposes to duplicate exactly the
make, type, and age of the ammunition used in the crime. Other ammunition in
the suspect's possession is identical to that fired during the crime.


Unfired ammunition should not be marked. The box with the ammunition may be
marked without marking every round in the box.
Powder and Shot Pattern
Submit clothing or other material showing evidence of gun powder residue or
shot holes to the Laboratory. The clothing should be carefully wrapped in
clean paper and folded as little as possible to prevent dislodging powder
particles. Photographs of the pattern will not suffice, as in most instances
microscopic examination and chemical tests must be conducted on the exhibits
themselves. Package each item separately.


For gunpowder or shot pattern tests to have significance, it is essential to
obtain ammunition identical in make, type, and age to that used at the crime
scene. This duplicate ammunition is necessary for firing in the weapon in
question to determine the distance of the muzzle of the weapon from the victim
or other object at the time the questioned bullet was fired.
Gunshot Residue
Gunshot residue is extremely fragile evidence and should be collected as soon
as possible (preferably within three hours of the discharge of firearm). Use
the laboratory-supplied GSR kits and carefully follow the directions. In the
case of live subjects, if more than six hours have passed or if the subject
has washed his hands, it is unlikely that meaningful results will be obtained.
If a body is to be sampled, whenever possible, gunshot residue collection
should be performed prior to moving the body. If this is not possible, protect
the hands with paper bags.
Serial Number Restoration
In many cases, obliterated serial numbers can be restored if too much metal
has not been removed in erasing the number.


Always advise the Department of Justice in Sacramento if, after restoring the
serial number, the gun is to be numbered. If the original number can be
restored, this is normally restamped on the gun. If it cannot be restored, a
new number is assigned to the gun and stamped thereon by the Department of
Justice or Numbering Station.





Tool Marks
Nature of Evidence
Tool marks are encountered most frequently in burglary cases but may also be
found in other types of crimes. The evidence consists of striations or
impressions left by tools on objects at the crime scene and various types of
tools found in the possession of suspects. In other cases, it is possible by
means of physical and other comparisons to prove that parts of tools left at
crime scenes were broken from damaged tools found in the possession of suspects.
In many cases, it is possible to identify the specific tool which made the
questioned marks by means of a Laboratory comparison of tools and marked
objects. In some instances, it is also possible to prove that marks of various
types on tools were produced by objects which they contacted at crime scene.
Preservation and Packaging of Tools
All areas on recovered tools which contain transferred paint, building
material, or other contamination should be wrapped in paper and packaged to
prevent the prying blades or cutting edges .'rom contacting any other surface
or object.
Make No Tests With Tools
Attempts should never be made to fit tools into questioned marks or to make
test marks prior to Laboratory examination. If done, the questioned mark or
tool may be altered and this may make any Laboratory examination valueless. In
addition, traces of transferred paint or other stains on the tool may be lost
or additional material may be transferred to the tool.
Preservation of Tool Marks
Whenever possible, submit the whole object containing tool marks to the
Laboratory instead of just removing the area containing the mark. If this is
not possible, carefully photograph and sketch the area containing the mark.
Although this photograph will not be sufficient to allow the Laboratory to
perform a toolmark comparison with the tool, it will assist the Laboratory to
determine how the mark was made so that test marks can be-more easily made.


Casts of tool marks can be made by a person who has had considerable
experience in this work. Poor casts are useless for comparison purposes and
some marks will be damaged if improper methods are used.


Pack the object containing tool marks so that no alteration or damage will
occur during shipment. Small objects should be wrapped with clean paper and
placed in envelopes or boxes, while important areas on larger objects can be
protected with paper. Whole, large objects can be packed in cartons or crates,
if not delivered in person.




Controlled Substances and Medical Preparations
The Laboratory handles the analysis of marijuana and other drugs and medicinal
preparations which may be involved in criminal cases or found in the possession
of subjects involved in various crimes.

Each sample of material recovered should be placed in a paper container, which
can be sealed and marked. Be sure to properly seal as loose material,
particularly in the case of marijuana, can leak and spill. Some drugs, like PCP,
should be packaged in heat-sealed KAPAK bags.

Medicinal preparations found in prescription boxes or bottles should be left in
these containers which can be sealed and marked. The information on the
prescription label may be of assistance to the Laboratory.

By means of chemical tests, most controlled substances and common drugs can be
identified.

Many pills, tablets, and other medical preparations are very difficult to
analyze and identify unless either large quantities are available for testing,
or some clues are present as to the general type of material they contain. In
all cases where prescriptions are involved and the drug store and prescription
numbers are known, a check of possible container content should be made at the
drug store named on the label. With this information, the Laboratory will often
be able to determine whether or not the contents of the containers are the same
as the material described.

While controlled substances can be identified in routine cases, the Laboratory
does not normally attempt to identify all medicinal preparations which may be
encountered in criminal investigations. Unless specific instructions to the
contrary are received, such materials are usually tested only for common
preparations and their possession may violate of the law.

All evidence of this nature should be brought to the Laboratory in a sealed
package.




Questioned Documents
Questioned Material to be Submitted
All questioned documents involved in a particular investigation should be
submitted to the Laboratory for examination. This is important since questioned
documents are identified by a comparison of similarities, plus an absence of
divergences or dissimilarities. In order to make an identification, sufficient
handwriting, typewriting, or other evidence must be available on which to base
an opinion. This means that all questioned material is needed, as well as
sufficient exemplars or known specimens.
Exemplars
It is very important to have sufficient handwriting exemplars for comparison
with the questioned document. One or two signatures on a suspect's driver's
license or a draft card, in many cases, does not contain sufficient individual
characteristics on which to base a conclusion. In some instances, such an
examination may substantiate a suspicion and this should be considered as an
investigational lead. To support this, it is necessary to obtain and examine
additional standards.

Collected specimens that were made in business transactions such as receipts,
promissory notes, credit and employment applications, letters, booking card, and
fingerprint card signatures are writings that, in most cases represent the
individual's most normal writing. It is significant in many cases that these
writings be of the same date as the questioned document. It is important to
obtain request specimens from a suspect at the first interview; the suspect may
be uncooperative at a later date.

The conditions surrounding the preparation of the questioned document should be
duplicated as nearly as possible when the request exemplars are obtained. If
yellow-lined paper and blue ink were used to produce the questioned document,
the same or similar color and type of paper and instrument should be used. If
the suspect document is a threatening letter and the note is either handwritten
or block lettered, the same style should be requested from the writer. Have
subjects write their names and addresses several times and brief personal
histories. This should be removed and another sheet of paper furnished. Dictate
the exact words and numbers which appear on the questioned document. this should
be done at least 12 times, removing the specimens from the writer's view as they
are produced. If it is a check case, the specimens should be taken on blank
checks or slips of paper of the same/appropriate size. The number of specimens
necessary for an identification in any specific case cannot be determined;
therefore, at least twelve specimens should be obtained for each questioned
document.

When securing typewritten exemplars, several copies of the questioned documents
should be made on the suspected machine using light, medium, and heavy touches.
At least one copy should be made with the ribbon removed from the machine, or
the ribbons set on stencil, and the keys allowed to strike directly on a sheet
of new carbon paper, which should be inserted on top of the paper used for the
specimen. This provides clear-cut exemplars of any machine's type face, showing
disfigurations in type characters. Always type the exemplars on the same type
and color of paper as that used on the questioned document.
Preservation of Questioned Documents
Under no circumstances should either the questioned document or the exemplars
be marked, defaced, or altered. No new folds should be made, nor should marks
or notes be placed on such material. Personal marks for identification
purposes should be made as small as possible on the back or other area of the
document where no handwriting or typewriting is present.


Whenever possible, all documents should be protected by placing them in
cellophane or plastic envelopes.
Shipment of Evidence
Questioned documents may be submitted personally or left in previously
described lockers at the Laboratory entrance.


Such evidence sent to the Laboratory by mail must be sent by certified or
registered mail. If there is a massive amount of material, it may be sent some
other way, but the package must always be sealed.
Charred Documents
Where examination and decipherment of charred paper is involved, great care must
be taken to prevent any additional crumbling or breaking apart of the burned
material. Normally it should be placed on top of loose cotton in a box and
delivered in person to the Laboratory. No matter how it is packaged, such
material will be damaged if attempts are made to ship it by mail.
Other Questioned Document Evidence
In addition to handwriting and typewriting comparisons and the decipherment of
charred documents, many other related examinations can be conducted by the
Laboratory. These include, but are not limited, to:
Restoration or decipherment of altered, obliterated, or erased writing.


Comparison of check protectors and rubber stamps with questioned printing.


Identification of embossed or indented writing or typing.


Comparison of paper and commercially-printed material, such as checks,
coupons, receipts, and others.


Physical matching of cut or torn paper of various types.


Problems relating to inks.





Latent Fingerprints
Marking of Latent Fingerprint Evidence
All such evidence should be marked in some distinctive manner, such as is the
case with any other type of physical evidence. Precautions should be taken,
when marking evidence, not to damage or destroy potential latent fingerprints.


Lifted, developed latents should also be marked or sealed in marked envelopes.


Photograph-developed latents with and without identifying markings and scale.
Preservation of Fingerprint Evidence
The primary precaution in all cases is the prevention of adding fingerprints
to evidence, or of destroying those already present.


Most fingerprints submitted will be on paper, glass, metal, or other smooth
surfaced objects. When articles containing latents must be picked up, touch as
little as possible, and then only in areas least likely to contain
identifiable latents, such as rough surfaces.


While gloves or handkerchiefs may be used to pick up such exhibits, any
unnecessary contact should be avoided. Although using a cloth to pick up
exhibits prevents leaving additional prints on the articles, the cloth will
frequently wipe off or smear any prints originally present, unless great care
is taken.


Large articles containing latents such as glass, metal articles, and firearms
should be placed on wood or heavy cardboard and fastened down with string to
prevent shifting and contact with other objects in transit. Where such
evidence is to be examined frequently, a pegboard should be obtained on which
wooden pegs can be moved as desired to support exhibits and keep them from
moving. Bottles and glasses may be placed vertically on a board and placed in
the bottom of a box. The base of the bottle or glass can be surrounded with
nails to hold it in place, and the top can be either inserted through a hole
in a piece of cardboard or held in position with a wooden board nailed to the
container's lid.


Papers and documents containing latent prints should be placed individually in
a cellophane or manila envelope. Such a container can be sandwiched between
two sheets of stiff cardboard, wrapped, and placed in a box for mailing.
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