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Bigfoot Forums > Bigfoot/Sasquatch Discussion > Research & Investigation
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Apeman
QUOTE(Gigantofootecus @ Nov 12 2007, 03:25 PM) *
It's my understanding that the dataset represents the ratio of foot length to width.

It's both and a lot more, you should go back and read it.

QUOTE
Fahrenbach's paper is not meaningless. It just doesn't prove anything.

Sounds a little like scientifically meaningless doesn't it? whistling.gif And I wholeheartedly disagree that 99% of research papers don't prove anything, unless you're using some ridiculous standard of "prove?" But we're really getting nowhere on this Fahrenbach paper. Can't we all just agree that it's interesting and applaud him for the effort?

-A
jimf
I have one question related to that paper (Dr.F's). Was the dataset used from actual casts or just reports of track finds?
Former_Northwester
QUOTE(Apeman @ Nov 12 2007, 08:22 PM) *
And I wholeheartedly disagree that 99% of research papers don't prove anything, unless you're using some ridiculous standard of "prove?"


Wow, I really disagree with that. If you consider the overall philosophy of science being ridiculous then I can understand that statement. That's the whole point of science, nothing is ever 'proven' 100%. History is replete with examples. Each research paper can nudge the thinking in one direction or another, and in time it converges to at least a temporarily 'known truth'. But since we don't know what will be learned centuries from now, it never is finished.

Also, digging back in the thread, the whole argument that 'a bigfoot was filmed and then tracks were found, so the bigfoot must have made the tracks is the classic induction fallacy. Humans evolved successfully using induction for most situations, but in the current state of knowledge it isn't a valid argument. JMHO.
Apeman
QUOTE(Former_Northwester @ Nov 12 2007, 08:36 PM) *
That's the whole point of science, nothing is ever 'proven' 100%. History is replete with examples. Each research paper can nudge the thinking in one direction or another, and in time it converges to at least a temporarily 'known truth'. But since we don't know what will be learned centuries from now, it never is finished.

I think we're all taking extreme viewpoints and being dogmatic to try to make our points, and all of us are actually wrong to some extent. Speaking in a general sense you are right about the way that science works, but there are plenty of papers in scientific journals that do 'prove' things.
By way of example, randomly looking at the latest issue of Science and picking a paper that isn't way out my realm (e.g. astro or particle physics), there is a paper that "proves" the following related to termite colonies:
QUOTE
Caste is thus controlled both by environment and by a complex genetic inheritance pattern.


We can debate the true semantics of the word "prove" or "proof" but this is how I meant it in my previous statement, which may be different from the absolute terms you're thinking of? Does that help? I shouldn't have used the word ridiculous, sorry about that. I think you, me, and GF are actually on the same page here, we're just not communicating it well. At least I'm not.

-A
Huntster
QUOTE(Apeman @ Nov 12 2007, 06:14 PM) *
....Look Hunster, I know you like to believe that science and scientists are perpetually screwing over the bigfoot (research) community (wink.gif), and that might be somewhat valid, but you're not going to make that case with this example, sorry....


While I understand all your replies, it still appears to me that an attempted survey of sasquatches by government game biologists in what reports indicate as a hotspot is overdue. I guess I'm just stuck there.
RogerKni
One point to consider about this is that, at the least, the Fahrenbach paper could show that it's unlikely that a few hoaxers (Pickens, Mullens & Wallace) have been responsible for a high % of the track-making. That's because each hoaxer would likely re-use each set of carved feet many times, rather than carving a different-length set for each use. The implication of that is that there'd be spikes in the data if a few hoaxers were making a high % of the tracks found.

OTOH, it's unlikely that there are lots of hoaxers, because if there, were there'd be more post-hoc boasting of their feats by them. I.e., assuming a conservative 10% confession rate, and only a few trackways per hoaxer, there should be more confessions. On the contrary, such boasting as has come out has generally claimed that lots of trackways were laid, and generally with only one set of feet. (Mullens claimed he made six sets I think, for use by others, but I think they were all the same or similar lengths.)
rockinkt
Another thing that needs to be consisdered is that a number of reported tracks are misidentifications.
There is nobody to come forward and admit to a hoax if no hoax has been made.
Saskeptic
QUOTE(Gigantofootecus @ Nov 12 2007, 05:25 PM) *
It's my understanding that the dataset represents the ratio of foot length to width.


Which in a large sample of hoaxed prints would be non-normally distributed because . . ?

(Sorry Apeman - I'll make this my last post on Fahrenbach's analysis in this thread.)
Gigantofootecus
QUOTE(Apeman @ Nov 12 2007, 10:22 PM) *
It's both and a lot more, you should go back and read it.

Yes, Fahrenbach's paper shows much more. I was referring to his appearance in LMS where he describes measuring the foot length to width ratio. I see that all aspects of foot size form normal distributions.

QUOTE
Sounds a little like scientifically meaningless doesn't it? whistling.gif And I wholeheartedly disagree that 99% of research papers don't prove anything, unless you're using some ridiculous standard of "prove?" But we're really getting nowhere on this Fahrenbach paper. Can't we all just agree that it's interesting and applaud him for the effort?

-A

You mean that all research papers that don't prove something are scientifically meaningless? That sounds like a lot of scientists are wasting their time then. I'm inclined to agree with Former Northwester here.

QUOTE(Saskeptic)
Which in a large sample of hoaxed prints would be non-normally distributed because . . ?

Because hoaxers would have to coincidently match 2 variables instead of 1. As the foot is made longer, it is proportionately made narrower. How would this fit with your scenario? Not saying it couldn't, but it reduces the likelihood significantly. I assume this is why Fahrenbach used this negative covariance relationship. However, after rereading his paper I see that ALL aspects of foot size follow a bell curve. But we're not talking about a large sample set anyway. Is it significant?

I just don't see a large sample set of hoaxed tracks converging on a normal distribution. We need a non-biased study to put your hypothesis to the test. Then you could have the last word.
Apeman
QUOTE(Gigantofootecus @ Nov 13 2007, 09:12 AM) *
You mean that all research papers that don't prove something are scientifically meaningless?


new_lmaosmiley.gif No, that's not what I meant at all! I guess you're playing word games with me and what I said, which is fair, but not how I meant it. I'm just going to stick with what I originally said and bow out of this Fahrenbach discussion before I get myself into more trouble.

-A
Saskeptic
QUOTE(Gigantofootecus @ Nov 13 2007, 11:12 AM) *
We need a non-biased study to put your hypothesis to the test. Then you could have the last word.


Sounds like fun, but I promised Apeman so I've had my last word. You are never under any obligation to consider it the last word.
Former_Northwester
QUOTE(Apeman @ Nov 12 2007, 10:00 PM) *
I think we're all taking extreme viewpoints and being dogmatic to try to make our points, and all of us are actually wrong to some extent. Speaking in a general sense you are right about the way that science works, but there are plenty of papers in scientific journals that do 'prove' things.

We can debate the true semantics of the word "prove" or "proof" but this is how I meant it in my previous statement, which may be different from the absolute terms you're thinking of? Does that help? I shouldn't have used the word ridiculous, sorry about that. I think you, me, and GF are actually on the same page here, we're just not communicating it well. At least I'm not.

-A


You're right, I was just injecting the purist view to nudge the discussion a little bit in the direction of the strictly scientific view. And to make the point to some here that haven't heard that viewpoint (not you).

In a practical sense, things can certainly be 'proven'. I just like to get the message out there that things that have been proven at one time can later be found to be incorrect. Usually it's not so much completely wrong, as it is incomplete. Nothing wrong with considering something proven at the moment for all practical purposes as long as we keep that in mind.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Mulder @ Nov 11 2007, 07:40 PM) *
(This is a general response to points made in prior posts as well as the one quoted.)

I don't think those are fair assertions at all. Either you are not understanding or are underplaying the significance of the statistical findings. The purpose of using the widest possible dataset is to MINIMIZE the effect of any erroneous/malicious data on the result set. This includes data that seems to flout the "curve" of the data set, as anomalous data is common in real life.

In the case of humans, for example, there are people who have grown to the height of 7-9' tall in the naturally occuring population. Assuming that the average human height is ~6', that yields a range of "excessive heights" between ~1.2 (rounded from 1.17) and 1.5 times the average height. Apply that to the putative sasquatch (using a ~8' average height) yields "excess heights between 9' 4" and 12' (not quite there, but very close).

Agruing against an entire data set because of ONE anomalous data point speaks to a lack of understanding of the purpose of statistical analysis.

But the most compelling outcome of the analysis is in itself the single-peak bell curve distribution pattern. That is a POWERFUL counterarguement to the skeptical "hoax/misidentification" theory, because, as the paper's author points out, an "UNnatural distribution pattern" would have MULTIPLE peaks.

That is the essence of WHY "bell curve" analysis is so useful for evaluating data, because in nature, ALL trait distributions across entire populations follow this pattern. A natural bell curve indicates a natual origin, a NON-natural curve indicates a non-natural origin...it's as simple as that.



Here is the problem with the entire premise ( and it has nothing really to do with the statistics applied as the "process" used is valid as has been discussed upthread)- it has to do with the qualitive and quantative data being used for the baseline samples.

For example- the paper operates under the premise that the prints are legitimate and come from a random sampling of a species Yet it doesnt take into account the skewing of data along these lines

For example- a hoaxer ( many over vast areas and dont know each other- so no conspiracy) who has the technical ability to produce fake feet would logically build them on the historical accounts of prints.

Logically they would be "made to standard" such as 12", 16" 18" and 24" as those are some of the most common construction measurements. That and the sizes raw materials come in would also contribute to commonality in the false prints.

That alone could account for the statistic "normalcy" attributed to the "randomness" of the sample.

Thats the reason I state the paper is meaningless- not the math or his analysis but his operational premise and assumptions applied to the data.
Flashman
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 15 2007, 04:35 PM) *
For example- the paper operates under the premise that the prints are legitimate and come from a random sampling of a species Yet it doesnt take into account the skewing of data along these lines


Hum, to me it does, exactly as indicated those sizes would make spikes in the distribution, if a hoaxer was trying to be "careful" not to do "too many" of one size it would square off the distribution...

If it was so frigging easy to fake a bellcurve normal distribution, then Uncle Sam and the Allies wouldn't have had to spend millions of dollars and keep some of the best mathematicians in the world employed soley to skew phenomena that should have had a normal distribution, back to "normal" to hide the fact from the German and Japanese mathematicians that we were breaking their codes and acting on the information. i.e. chance we just happened to have a bunch of aircraft in the right place to shoot down Yamamoto etc.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(Flashman @ Nov 15 2007, 04:59 PM) *
Hum, to me it does, exactly as indicated those sizes would make spikes in the distribution, if a hoaxer was trying to be "careful" not to do "too many" of one size it would square off the distribution...

If it was so frigging easy to fake a bellcurve normal distribution, then Uncle Sam and the Allies wouldn't have had to spend millions of dollars and keep some of the best mathematicians in the world employed soley to skew phenomena that should have had a normal distribution, back to "normal" to hide the fact from the German and Japanese mathematicians that we were breaking their codes and acting on the information. i.e. chance we just happened to have a bunch of aircraft in the right place to shoot down Yamamoto etc.



I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on that one
Mulder
QUOTE(longtabber PE @ Nov 15 2007, 03:35 PM) *
For example- a hoaxer ( many over vast areas and dont know each other- so no conspiracy) who has the technical ability to produce fake feet would logically build them on the historical accounts of prints.

Logically they would be "made to standard" such as 12", 16" 18" and 24" as those are some of the most common construction measurements. That and the sizes raw materials come in would also contribute to commonality in the false prints.

That alone could account for the statistic "normalcy" attributed to the "randomness" of the sample.

Thats the reason I state the paper is meaningless- not the math or his analysis but his operational premise and assumptions applied to the data.


You just made my point, really...you state that they would start with "standard" sizes and increments.

That would NOT yield a nice smooth continuous curve...that would yeild a truncated curve at the ends and SEVERAL data peaks around said "standard" sizes...

My quick "MSPaint" graph for demonstration, using the "standard sizes" you gave:

Click to view attachment
xpert4u
QUOTE(rockinkt @ Nov 13 2007, 01:18 AM) *
Another thing that needs to be consisdered is that a number of reported tracks are misidentifications.
There is nobody to come forward and admit to a hoax if no hoax has been made.



Yes but if they were cast, it wouldn't be a problem to identify them. We're not talking tracks not cast are we?
rockinkt
Tracks that have not been cast. thumbup.gif
Hairy Man
I am very pleased with Dr. Meldrum's paper and the significance of the mere fact that it was published should not be overlooked. Meldrum gave me several hard copies in Texas which I gave to our forest biologists...and at one was intrigued enough to ask me some serious questions. That's a huge step...even if it's only one.

I only have two complaints. I wish the scans of the casts were better. I've had 3D scans done on archaeological artifacts before and the quality is so fantastic, it's like you can pick the artifact right off the screen. These don't quite look to that quality.

Secondly, how exactly am I to get Anthropoidipes ameriborealis into a cocktail party conversation so I can start spreading the news? "You know, you've got some (big/small/hobbit-like) feet there? Do you know we have a scientific name for sasquatch prints now?" That ought to kill the party....
Apeman
Another small step forward, here is an "Insights" piece in the latest issue of Scientific American magazine about Meldrum and this paper. Cryptomundo has the images.

QUOTE
Title:
Bigfoot Anatomy. By: Holloway, Marguerite, Scientific American, 00368733, Dec2007, Vol. 297, Issue 6
Database:
Academic Search Premier

Bigfoot Anatomy
Contents

Section: INSIGHTS

CRYPTOZOOLOGY

Sasquatch is just a legend, right? According to the evidence, maybe not, argues Jeffrey Meldrum -- a position he holds despite ostracism from his fellow anthropologists and university colleagues

One overcast Sunday morning in 1996, Jeffrey Meldrum and his brother drove to Walla Walla, Wash., to see if they could find Paul Freeman, a man renowned in Bigfoot circles as a source of footprint casts. Meldrum--who has followed Bigfoot lore since he was a boy--had heard that Freeman was a hoaxer, "so I was very dubious," he recalls. The brothers arrived unannounced, Meldrum says, and chatted with Freeman about his collection. Freeman said he had found tracks just that morning, but they were not good, not worth casting. The brothers wanted to see them regardless. "I thought we could use this to study the anatomy of a hoax," Meldrum says. Instead Meldrum's visit to a ridge in the Blue Mountains set him firmly on a quest he has been on since.

Meldrum, an associate professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University, is an expert on foot morphology and locomotion in monkeys, apes and hominids. He has studied the evolution of bipedalism and edited From Biped to Strider (Springer, 2004), a well-respected textbook. He brought his anatomical expertise to the site outside Walla Walla. The 14-inch-long prints Freeman showed him were interesting, Meldrum says, because some turned out at a 45-degree angle, suggesting that whatever made them had looked back over its shoulder. Some showed skin whorls, some were flat with distinct anatomical detail, others were of running feet--imprints of the front part of the foot only, of toes gripping the mud. Meldrum made casts and decided it would be hard to hoax the running footprints, "unless you had some device, some cable-loaded flexible toes."

To Meldrum, the anatomy captured in those prints and the casts of others he has examined as well as still unidentified hairs, recordings of strange calls and certain witness testimonials all add up to valid evidence that warrants study. He reviews that evidence in Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science (Forge, 2006). "My book is not an attempt to convince people of the existence of Sasquatch," the 49-year-old Meldrum says emphatically; rather it argues that "the evidence that exists fully justifies the investigation and the pursuit of this question."

To Meldrum's critics--including university colleagues and scientists in his own field--that same collection does not constitute valid evidence, and Meldrum's examination of it is pseudoscientific: belief shrouded in the language of scientific rigor and analysis. "Even if you have a million pieces of evidence, if all the evidence is inconclusive, you can't count it all up to make something conclusive," says David J. Daegling, an anthropologist at the University of Florida who has critiqued Meldrum and the Bigfoot quest in the Skeptical Inquirer and is the author of Bigfoot Exposed (AltaMira, 2004).

Neither side can win its case without a Sasquatch specimen or fossil or without the true confessions of a fleet of perhaps fleet-footed hoaxers. In the meantime, observers watch a debate that is striking in that both sides use virtually the same language, refute each other's interpretations with the same tone of disbelief and insist they have the identical goal: honoring the scientific method. And the question of how science on the fringe should be dealt with remains open: some observers say that Meldrum, who has been lambasted by colleagues and passed over for promotion twice, should just be left alone to do his thing; others counter that in this era of creationism, global warming denial, and widespread antiscience sentiment and scientific illiteracy, it is particularly imperative that bad science be soundly scrutinized and exposed.

Meldrum is a tall, mustached man, relaxed, friendly and gregarious. On a recent summer morning in his office--rich in Bigfoot paraphernalia--he explains that his interest in the subject arose when he was 11 and saw Roger Patterson's now famous film of an alleged Sasquatch loping into the forest. Meldrum listed cryptozoology (the study of hidden creatures such as yeti and Nessie) as an interest on his vitae when he applied for doctoral work. But Bigfoot as an active pursuit did not emerge until he arrived at Idaho State in 1993 and was back in the Pacific Northwest, where he grew up.

Meldrum's laboratory houses more than 200 casts relating to Bigfoot. As he pulls out drawers and talks about the casts, Meldrum shows ones with the hallmarks of hoax and others that intrigue him because of anatomy, hair striations, musculature and an apparent midtarsal break--a pair of joints in the middle of the ape foot that have less mobility in the human foot because of the arch. He brings out a particularly controversial piece called the Skookum cast that he thinks may be of a reclining Sasquatch and others think may be of a reclining elk. "There is a chance we are wrong," he says. "But with the footprints, I feel more certain." Discounting the unusual casts "isn't scientific in the least," Meldrum maintains, and "it is irresponsible."

"He does bring more scientific rigor to this question than anyone else in the past, and he does do state-of-the-art footprint analysis," notes David R. Begun, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Toronto. Todd R. Disotell, a New York University anthropologist, agrees: "He is trying to bring rigor to it." Both researchers collaborate with Meldrum even though they do not accept his hypothesis that a large apelike creature exists. "If he hands me a feces sample or a bloodstain or a hair shaft, I am willing to do what I do with anything I get," Disotell says. "I go along with this because I am either doing good science, finding alternatives or debunking, or I have the find of the century." Disotell gets Bigfoot jibes over beers sometimes, but nothing similar to what Meldrum experiences: "I think what is happening to him is a shame."

In his famous "Cargo Cult Science" lecture in 1974, Richard Feynman described scientific thinking and integrity as "a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards" to raise and examine every doubt, every interpretation. This kind of thinking, critics say, is missing from Meldrum's Bigfoot work, whereas it infuses his fossil and primate gait research. Meldrum's principal critic from his own field is Daegling, who concludes that the "evidence doesn't look better on deeper analysis, it looks worse." He adds that "this isn't about Bigfoot--it is about how scientists go about doing their work and how we should be self-reflective and self-critical."

Meldrum responds by saying that most people do not see him critically sifting through all the evidence that comes his way--and discarding most of it. But if he is at times frustrated and beleaguered by skeptics, it appears some in his community are beleaguered by his exhortation that more researchers accept his interpretations or become involved. In reviewing Meldrum's and Daegling's books in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Matt Cartmill of Duke University concludes that if the chances of Bigfoot's being real are one in 10,000 (his admittedly wild guess), then having one physical anthropologist on the case seems a reasonable allocation of professional resources and that Meldrum does not deserve scorn or abuse. But Cartmill, who notes that he is "mortally certain" there is no Sasquatch, is irked by Meldrum's trying to guilt-trip those who do not do Bigfoot work and his disparaging them as lazy or aloof.

The tension is inevitable for science on the fringe, says Trent D. Stephens of Idaho State who co-authored a book with Meldrum on evolutionary biology and Mormonism. As he puts it: "The stuff that is on the margins, the stuff that isn't popular--we scientists are horrible at judging it. And we say our mistakes about the fringe are all historical; we claim we are not making those mistakes today."

The fringe has produced wonderful science, and it has produced wonderfully abysmal science. It has never been a comfortable place to live.

BIG ON BIGFOOT: Respected for his primate and hominid anthropology work, he receives opprobrium for his investigations of the Sasquatch legend.

TOUGH SKIN: "If I didn't think there was some merit to this, I wouldn't endure the slings and arrows."

PHOTO (COLOR): CASTS OF HUNDREDS: Jeffrey Meldrum's collection leads him to believe that a big-footed biped may lurk in the forests of the Pacific Northwest.

PHOTO (COLOR)

~~~~~~~~

By Marguerite Holloway
Hominid,WA
Good for Dr. Jeff! If it were not for outside-the-box thinkers, were would we be today? With persistence and valid science, may one day sooner rather then later, he be vindicated, as well as so many of us here. Good work!
xpert4u
QUOTE(Hairy Man @ Nov 17 2007, 11:21 AM) *
That ought to kill the party....



Maybe not as much as you think. Give it a try... If anything, you'll get a good laugh...

QUOTE(rockinkt @ Nov 17 2007, 02:30 AM) *
Tracks that have not been cast. thumbup.gif



Well, thanks a different story, depending on how seasoned the person is to looking at and recognizing tracks, ya a lot of them could be misidentified.
windigeo
I think the value of Dr. Meldrum's paper is that, by getting published in a peer-reviewed publication, the subject of bigfoot will at least show up as a blip on the radar screen of anthropologists who up until now thought they had no reason to even pay attention to the subject...which probably includes most of them. Grad students who want to study the bigfoot phenomenon now have the first stepping stone from which to work from. This could really snowball, and eventually be the catalyst that leads to new discoveries.

As for Dr. Fahrenbach's paper, I think it shows that the footprint measurements are statistically indicative of a real population. Not proof, of course, but the normal curve is what you would expect of any real animal population, so it at least shows that the data is, to some extent, legitimate.
Minister_of_Information
QUOTE(Minister_of_Information @ Nov 9 2007, 02:30 AM) *
I find it interesting that a single error or oversight is enough to discredit someone who has devoted decades to acquiring expertise in a particular field. Ah, to be a skeptic and live in such a simple, easy to explain world...

I retract this statement and admit that it was posted in error. At present I do not give any weight to Chilicutt's dermatoglyphics as evidence, and acknowledge that this post by rockinkt appears to be correct.
Yetifan
Gen. Ripper, I salute you for the above retraction. It takes a real man to admit a mistake.
And, in doing so, it reduces
the chances of his precious bodily fluids becoming impurified. thumbup.gif
RogerKni
I haven’t followed the dermal ridge debate closely, so what follows is fairly impressionistic. I hope someone who is more “up” on the subject will weigh in. But here goes: I don’t believe the majority of the dermal ridge evidence has been discredited by Tube’s experiments. Until recently (on JREF) Tube himself never made that claim, and I’m unaware of any new reasons for him to do so.

His initial claim, in 2005, which didn’t go beyond the evidence, was that in a very dry substrate (volcanic pumice) wicking could occur that created artifact-ridges that resemble dermal ridges. He didn’t even claim that that’s necessarily what happened to the one cast that was poured in such a dry substrate. Nor (if I recall correctly) did he demonstrate that such ridges could be formed on the soles of feet, but only along their sides. Here’s what I posted:

QUOTE(RogerKni @ Jul 4 2005, 08:33 AM) *
In that post Matt makes clear that he was excluding certain casts from his analysis:
QUOTE(tube)
My scope of investigation has been limited to ONE cast which was made under rather extraordinary conditions. Various other casts such as Paul Freeman's "Wrinkle Foot" or the Elkins cast made in Georgia were made in mud. My tests suggest that this ridge artifact process does not occur in mud. Various other casts are claimed to exhibit dermal ridges. Of those I have no first hand knowledge or opinion, as I have not seen the casts nor do I have any knowledge of the soil conditions under which they were made.

I spoke to Matt July 1 at the monthly Weird Science Meeting (evening of first Friday of every month) at the Seattle Museum of Mysteries (623 Broadway E, between Roy & Mercer Sts.). He emphasized that the process he has discovered seems (so far anyway) to require dry, fine soil (e.g., volcanic pumice) that can "wick" the moisture out of the wet plaster and create the slumping that looks like longitudinal dermal ridges.

It’s easy to see how that artifact would have occurred more readily on the side of a foot than on the sole: A person pouring a cast would usually tend to move the bucket back and forth along the print, in order to spread the plaster evenly, so that when he reached the end of his pour he wouldn’t have a lump. Therefore, there’d be maybe a four-second (or more?) gap between successive pours at any point along the foot. During this period the first wave of material to reach the side of the print would harden a bit, especially if the dirt there was very dry and “wicked” water out of the plaster. Then, when the second wave of plaster arrived there, it would overlap the previous wave, rather than dissolving into it. This would create a ridge-like artifact on the side of the foot.

QUOTE(RogerKni @ Jun 2 2007, 08:06 PM) *
Chilcutt did find one bit of evidence that approaches "smoking gun" strength: the scar that healed in a realistic puckered fashion, with the dermal ridges on either side of it misaligning slightly after healing as they do with similar wounds in humans and apes. Those features support the probable reality of the surrounding ridge pattern. And the similarity (I'm assuming here) of that surrounding ridge pattern to the patterns found on other casts in turn tended to validate them as well.

What's needed is funding to show the argument above, along with supporting evidence (the cast with the scars), to specialists in fingerprints & footprints, to see if they agree with Chilcutt, and how strongly they agree. (They could all still be wrong of course. Who knows all the tricks molten plaster might get up to? That needs to be investigated too.)

That healed-scar dermal pattern is described on p. 141 of Murphy’s Meet the Sasquatch. A picture of it is shown on p. 257 of Meldrum’s book; his entire Ch. 14 (pp. 249-59) deals with dermals. LAL posted that picture here too somewhere.
manofthesea
I have a couple of questions regarding footprints.
Is there any situation where DNA may be obtained from a footprint? By scooping the top layer of soil, sand, mud, or whatever. If there was DNA resembling humans obtained, but there was no contamination of the sample then that would almost prove sasquatch. Presented with corresponding photographs, casts, etc. it would be presentable for scientific study.
longtabber PE
QUOTE(manofthesea @ Jan 19 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I have a couple of questions regarding footprints.
Is there any situation where DNA may be obtained from a footprint? By scooping the top layer of soil, sand, mud, or whatever. If there was DNA resembling humans obtained, but there was no contamination of the sample then that would almost prove sasquatch. Presented with corresponding photographs, casts, etc. it would be presentable for scientific study.



Yes it can be done that way. ( whether it actually has been is another question) it could be in the form of embedded hairs, skin cells, blood( maybe from a cut). You would face the same problems gathering a quality sample as you would with any other sample such as the Ph content of the soil, moisture content, sunlight, organics etc but the technique is sound and in use today in Law Enforcement
Apeman
I'm bumping this thread so we can move the track discussion away from Bill's thread....
jon a. larsen
http://www.newsweek.com/id/155355

Short quote from the article...by Matthew Philips.." Last October, Meldrum presented some of his evidence to a symposium of 40 paleontologists at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, and emerged with a peer-reviewed published paper acknowledging that what he'd collected were not the prints of a known species, nor were they hoaxes, but genuine casts of an unknown North American primate.

Meldrum was given the authority to classify the beast witha taxonomical name, the Anthropoides Ameriborealis, which translates into North American ape. It might not seem like much compared with a body in a freezer, but in the uphill battle of Bigfoot science, it's a huge step, and as close to acknowledged scientific proof as anything seen to date. " It has certainly helped me shift the perception from that of tabloid fodder into the area of biology." says Meldrum. "But a new species will only be recognized when DNA is collected."
Robert
QUOTE
Anthropoides Ameriborealis


Bipto! Can we now change the name of this forum?
Drew
Actually he just named the footprint. He did not name the beast.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uplo...rth_america.pdf

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=20824
nightscream
On another thread I pointed out that the media fuels what amounts to a disinformation campaign against the idea that BF exists. This article is a perfect example and backs my point. The fact that Meldrum emerged with a peer-reviewed article regarding the prints is on page three of the Newsweek article. I argued that the media even seems to be angered by the idea of BF and that people take it seriously.

On page one you have this:
These are hard times for Bigfoot believers, a human subspecies that includes a fairly hairy collection of fantasists, charlatans, grifters and fools.
headbang.gif

Perhaps what angered Matthew Philips, the writer of the article, the most was this little fact that he pointed out regarding the GA hoax:
By the end of the day, this latest installment in the Bigfoot saga was the most-viewed story on MSNBC and CNN.com, which carried live coverage of the 45-minute conference that Friday afternoon.

You can call it what you will, but the general public was more interested in the outcome of the GA hoax of a Bigfoot than the election, the olympics, or anything else that Newsweek was covering at the time.

Sorry Matthew. Sorry that you were forced to write on a subject that you so despise. Sorry that fools like me keep you up at night grinding your teeth.
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