tugboatwa
Oct 14 2007, 02:09 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_7170262QUOTE
Utah voices
Bigfoot and the repugnance of truth
By Ryan Kenneth Peterson
Article Last Updated: 10/13/2007 11:21:22 AM MDT
Like everyone, I'm guilty of not wanting to accept certain possibilities.
For instance, is it possible that Oswald shot JFK from behind, despite the exit wound being on the back of our fallen president's head? Is it possible, that on 9/11, World Trade Center Building 7 could collapse like a controlled demolition despite not being hit by a plane? Is it possible that George W. Bush was legitimately elected president in 2000?
And, finally, is it possible that the legendary Bigfoot doesn't exist? I guess anything is possible, but, I'm going to fight against this last one.
This year marks the 40th anniversary of the infamous 16mm footage shot by Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin in Bluff Creek, Calif., on Oct. 20, 1967.
On that fateful day the two men filmed "something" walking in a wooded clearing that could be one of two things: It either shows the most successful costume ever constructed, or an actual Bigfoot was caught on celluloid.
Somewhere on these frames lies the answer to a fairly profound question: Does a primate exist that is genetically closer to homo sapiens than the chimpanzee - a missing link?
I'm not a scientist. I am an artist who has worked as a creature designer for film special effects. I've had the privilege to work for the best monster maker in Hollywood and the king of gorilla suit construction, six-time Academy
Now, I can't speak for Rick Baker, this is my own analysis of Patterson's "star." So I'll get to the point: In my opinion, the technology and artistry were not available in 1967 to create such a convincing Bigfoot costume. Even if Roger Patterson orchestrated the whole affair and was able to hire John Chambers, the one special make-up effects man on the planet at the forefront of such technology, I would argue it wasn't enough.
Take "Planet of the Apes" for example. If a major motion picture studio like Twentieth Century Fox, during the same period, with all of its money and resources, couldn't motivate the construction of a full-body, ventilated hair suit on top of a sculpted foam musculature with arm extensions aiding an overall "man/ape" design and performance of such naturalistic nuance, how the hell could a professional rodeo rider named Roger Patterson?
Unless there was an unknown genius of such brazen pretensions, content to live in obscurity, who was willing to incorporate features into his costume design that would set itself up for potential failure - such as making it female, as well as shortening the fur where flaws would be more pronounced and allowing it to be filmed under midday sunlight in the middle of a remote wooded location with no crew or witnesses - I would say it was impossible then and I dare say even today.
Back to the big picture: Humans are a peculiar species. We demonstrate faith in technology on a daily basis - we travel by plane, go under anesthesia, genetically alter the food we eat - yet most of us don't allow technology to disrupt our illusions.
Truth, it would seem, is problematic, even repugnant, because it's perceived as scary and oh so comfortably allusive. What if it's not?
---
* RYAN KENNETH PETERSON is a self-employed fine artist in Salt Lake City and works part time in Los Angeles doing makeup effects for various studios.
micahn
Oct 15 2007, 12:35 AM
Just seen this story on a site I go to every day. This topic has been talked about countless times over the years and most agree it could not have been done back in 1967 by anyone. I also agree with the guy when he said maybe not even today.
Texas Bigfoot
Oct 15 2007, 08:33 AM
I agree with his PGF analysis. However, I don't know why people of a certain political bent must include their views in every story they write. It sounds like they are trying to hard to convince people, or themselves, of a facts that are, unstable at best. The pathology of the loser.
dogu4
Oct 15 2007, 01:46 PM
The author's website is pretty cool. Amazing creatures.
http://www.ryankpeterson.com/
rockinkt
Oct 15 2007, 01:52 PM
I find that the opinions of a person who doesn't have the ability to separate fact from fiction regarding "conspiracy theories" to be of little value.
As to Peterson's opinion of PGF - if one is going to appeal to authority - then one should include the fact that Chris Walas sees flaws in the film subject that scream to his experienced eye: "suit".
billgreen2005bigfoot
Oct 17 2007, 12:30 AM
hey tugboatwa everyone wow very interesting new article about sasquatch bill
bartlojays
Oct 17 2007, 02:51 AM
It's turning into a nice little debate in the comments section of this article. I'm enjoying participating in it.
I tell ya man, it's a lot easier debating and discussing something you know for absolute certainty as opposed to just being convinced based on other peoples accounts, collected circumstancial evidence (I've always thought we have more than that) or just believing and having faith in it. What a difference a few months make.
socaldave
Oct 17 2007, 08:56 AM
Thanks for posting the article Tug. It will always be a split decision on the film even if we find the real thing IMO.
HarryHenderson
Oct 17 2007, 05:18 PM
QUOTE(rockinkt @ Oct 15 2007, 12:52 PM)

...As to Peterson's opinion of PGF - if one is going to appeal to authority - then one should include the fact that Chris Walas sees flaws in the film subject that scream to his experienced eye: "suit".
So that leaves us with 'one for' and 'one against'. Take your pick?
BigfootDad
Oct 17 2007, 05:23 PM
I don't think it should be a split decision...
There's too many good analyses out there at this time...
all are covered in Jeff Meldrum's "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science."
Grover Krantz's treatment of the subject is most convincing as are the documentation and illustrations
found in Chris Murphy's "Meet the Sasquatch."
if you don't want to read, then check out Doug Hajicek's "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science" dvd...
I don't think the herniated thigh muscle is part of any costume.
yep, I am always amused and amazed by those who follow this subject so intently and
are "on the fence" about the P-G film subject.
film, tracks, multiple eyewitnesses...12 consecutive track casts exhibiting a flexible foot...
it's a shame not to enjoy the real deal when it's staring you right in the face.
HarryHenderson
Oct 17 2007, 07:15 PM
I was being somewhat facetious, but not totally.

The PGF is nothing if not enigmatic/perplexing. The fact there's a 'split decision' at all is actually a good thing when so much of what's been put forth Bigfoot-wise hasn't even been worth rendering a decision on
at all. I think it's about the only piece of
ponderable 'evidence' where you never hear "
Where is it, I don't see anything!?". My actual problem with it all is the 'only piece' part.
rockinkt
Oct 18 2007, 01:27 AM
QUOTE(BigfootDad @ Oct 17 2007, 04:23 PM)

I don't think it should be a split decision...
There's too many good analyses out there at this time...
all are covered in Jeff Meldrum's "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science."
Grover Krantz's treatment of the subject is most convincing as are the documentation and illustrations
found in Chris Murphy's "Meet the Sasquatch."
if you don't want to read, then check out Doug Hajicek's "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science" dvd...
I don't think the herniated thigh muscle is part of any costume.
yep, I am always amused and amazed by those who follow this subject so intently and are "on the fence" about the P-G film subject.
film, tracks, multiple eyewitnesses...12 consecutive track casts exhibiting a flexible foot...
it's a shame not to enjoy the real deal when it's staring you right in the face.
I'm always amused and amazed by those people who follow this subject intently that don't know the difference between a book and a peer reviewed paper published in a respectable journal.
edited to add: my bolding in original quote.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 18 2007, 06:08 AM
I'm always amused and amazed by those people who constantly rail against the reliability of humans, yet seem to suggest in the same breath that human institutions of learning are somehow exempt from this same unreliability.
Let the horse be led to water:
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (Wikipedia Article)QUOTE
In the practice of science, scientists will only consider the possibility that a theory has been falsified if an alternative theory is available which they judge to be credible. If there isn't, scientists will continue to adhere to the established conceptual framework. If a paradigm shift has occurred, the textbooks will be rewritten to state that the previous theory has been falsified.
squatchdetective
Oct 18 2007, 08:12 AM
Often in this field we wonder why people have such "dead set" claims that Bigfoot/Sasquatch is BS. I've come to the certain realization that it relies heavily on a person's belief values.
Many people who have strong feelings towards their belief systems become involved in as journalism, science, clergy, and politics. Ususally most of these folks have a very small window for open mindedness.
So a lot of times they put the "kabosh" on things out of a deeply ingrained belief system, which if they are not open to new ideas, methods and theories, will tend to kick a "reflex" attitude toward things such as the existence of such a creature.
They will cling onto things even if they've been proven to be untrue. All of us as humans have this in our psyche's but it varies in degrees. Yes there are folks in this business too that cling to certain things as well that have been proven otherwise or at least in the "question mark" field but cling to them as absolute.
I always and sometimes cite my faith question to folks sometimes to their chagrin, but it often at least spins their wheels. I remember one time after a lecture I gave, I was approached by a woman, and she said to me, "Well I've seen your proof, and heard the stories, but I still don't believe it unless I see it." She then on to tell me how science believes the creature's don't exist.
Knowing that it was based on a belief system ingrained so deeply in her, I observed her wearing a crucifix around her neck.
I said to her "Ma'am, I understand your feelings, but I have to ask you, do you believe in God?"
She replied, "Yes, why?"
My reply is, "Well you believe in something, that other than written word, there is no proof of, and that text was written thousands of years ago and could have been subject to some creative re-writes. Furthermore if you subscribe to certain sciences, which you pointed out to me earlier, have stated they disproved things in the Good Book, but yet you will use that same science that says your belief is wrong to point out and tell me mine is wrong and at least with my belief there is some evidence that suggests it, oh and please don't take offense, I believe in God too. Science is not pefect, they "
I don't know if I changed her mind (that wasn't really my intention) but at least I opened her up to the possibility of critical thinking.
edit: double posting within same post
rockinkt
Oct 18 2007, 03:37 PM
QUOTE(Minister_of_Information @ Oct 18 2007, 05:08 AM)

I'm always amused and amazed by those people who constantly rail against the reliability of humans, yet seem to suggest in the same breath that human institutions of learning are somehow exempt from this same unreliability.
Let the horse be led to water:
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (Wikipedia Article)Who has done that?
Once again - you are making a straw man argument.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 18 2007, 06:47 PM
You have implied that support for P-G that is not in a "respectable journal" is without merit, which ignores the role of institutional resistance to the P-G film (most of which, incidentally, seems to manifest itself in ridicule). In effect the question, scientifically speaking, has been swept under the rug.
P-G supportive claims will never find their way into a "respectable journal" until a paradigm shift has already occurred.
rockinkt
Oct 18 2007, 09:48 PM
If there was some sort of verifiable scientific evidence that could be presented as such - it could be done up in a paper and submitted for peer review.
Since there is no scientific evidence that has been gleaned from this film that can pass any sort of peer review - then yes - a major paradigm shift must occur. We could shift from fact to fancy.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 19 2007, 12:09 AM
QUOTE(rockinkt @ Oct 18 2007, 10:48 PM)

We could shift from fact to fancy.
That seems to be your specialty.
WmRoy
Oct 19 2007, 07:10 AM
QUOTE(squatchdetective @ Oct 18 2007, 09:12 AM)

Often in this field we wonder why people have such "dead set" claims that Bigfoot/Sasquatch is BS. I've come to the certain realization that it relies heavily on a person's belief values.
Many people who have strong feelings towards their belief systems become involved in as journalism, science, clergy, and politics. Ususally most of these folks have a very small window for open mindedness.
I would like to point out that this is in fact a statement that is rubbish! Your definition of open mindedness is unfortunately that of most who preach the virtue of open mindedness...... open minded=those who think like you do........ all others are defined as close minded.........
As for the P&G film, I see things that make me believe it's real and I see things that make me think it's fake...... in the end I'm on the fence and take no stand one way or the other. Perhaps the reason folks are dead set against BF has absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs and everything to do with a profound LACK of evidence! Now I'm not a skeptic but my 99% belief is based solely on the testimony of one man that I know personally that had an encounter...... if not for him then I'd say it's HIGHLY unlikely...........
I will not address your comments on religion, however I would point out that they ARE against the posting rules. Which I have been guilty of bending myself......... I will suggest that before you become convinced that science and religion cannot co-exist that you read the writings of Dr. Francis Collins.
God Bless
WmRoy (with a degree in science, active in politics and seriously considering joining the clergy)
WmRoy
Oct 19 2007, 11:27 AM
I believe that in my previous response to squatchdetective, I was inadvertently harsh in my tone. Please allow me to apologize, for that was not my intent. (In the real world, my wife lets me know when I've done this by a look or a kick in the shin....... )
My point is that we are all small minded in our own way.......... to any of us (if we will just be honest with ourselves) find at least some (most

) of the people that disagree with us to be small minded. This label certainly does not fit the majority of whom we would wish to address it too..... it's just that to us......... they are small minded.......... after all they fail to see things our way......... what else could they be!
As far as for small minded folks gravitating to a particular profession, that is likely unsupported by any statistical data. There are (and I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of them) small minded folks in all walks of life....... from welder to lawyer, from baker to banker..... we're surrounded by them. NOW, in some professions they are on greater display, such as in broadcasting, acting, and I will admit in the clergy. But trust me it's not that there's more of them in those fields, it's just that they're out there for all to see.
Again, I apologize to squatchdetective, and I wish you well.
WmRoy
rockinkt
Oct 20 2007, 01:27 AM
QUOTE(Minister_of_Information @ Oct 18 2007, 11:09 PM)

That seems to be your specialty.
Nope - I'm not the "believer" here. Nor do I posit flights of fancy pretending that long winded whimsy is germain to a point in question.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 01:36 AM
QUOTE(rockinkt @ Oct 20 2007, 02:27 AM)

Nope - I'm not the "believer" here.
Of course you are. You believe that the institutions of science are above reproach. Is that "germain" enough for you?
rockinkt
Oct 21 2007, 03:04 AM
Nobody in their right mind believes that.
People are always trying to twist facts and produce "results" for their own personal gain. Institutions are made up of humans and are subject to those same failings.
However - that has nothing to do with following sound scientific methodology and publishing your work as your profession demands as part of the proper process of scientific study and debate.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 04:38 AM
I don't disagree that peer-reviewed papers published in reputable journals are the best kind of scientific support.
However given the large role that ridicule has played and continues to play in this field, and the fact that taking this question seriously literally puts your career at risk, I think it is quite myopic to point to the scarcity of academic papers on this subject as evidence that the subject is without merit. Consequently it is also quite misguided to label any analysis which falls short of preferred academic channels as being worthless. As "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" makes clear, only efforts which fall within the prevailing paradigm have easy access to the normal academic channels. A novel and revolutionary claim must overcome this institutional resistance before it can be properly considered. Until that happens, we are going to have to make do with the analysis and the evidence which is available.
rockinkt
Oct 21 2007, 06:47 AM
I agree that taking this question seriously can put an academic reputation at risk. Why? Because there is precious little evidence that can be held up to rigorous scientific standards and debate.
Until there is valid evidence available that can be written up properly in a paper and submitted for peer review - there is little ammuniton for those scientists brave enough to step forward and defend their belief in the scientific community.
The fact that a paper may not get published - is a far cry from calling it worthless. A properly written paper that provides full disclosure can be debated amongst peers and lay people alike. Any shortcomings or valid points can then be debated fully.
Excusing poor evidence because of some notion of prevailling paradigms ignores the reality that the best evidence we have falls far short of any sort of reasonable scientific standards.
It isn't the system - it's the lack of real evidence.
JohnCartwright
Oct 21 2007, 07:59 AM
As we have reached the 40th anniversary of the PG film, I wish we would do one thing. Lock the damn thing in a vault and leave it there. If you want my opinion about it, I tend to lean towards it being legitimate, but who cares? It is a FILM and can never be used as proof of this creature. I guess I will regret saying this, and let the attacks begin...
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 08:08 AM
It is clear that we disagree, and the nature of this disagreement is now crystalline. I am heartened that our disagreement seems to exist for the moment on a civil basis. I hope that it can remain so.
I will return to something RobertKni said a while back on another thread -- the skeptical arguments are strong, yet some of the evidence is non-dismissible. In this case we have been discussing the P-G film. P-G for whatever its virtues might be (and it has withstood a signficant amount of examination) is a single piece of evidence. So this single piece of evidence, which is generally seen as the single most compelling piece in the field, cannot be viewed by the scientific establishment on its own merits. It must overcome the prevailing scientific model in order to be taken seriously. This is why a body is required before this question can be taken up by science itself, because a body is undeniable. A film, no matter how compelling, still leaves an element of doubt. As long as a morsel of doubt is available, the conventional model will be sustained, and the question will remain in the shadows.
Robert
Oct 21 2007, 08:12 AM
The question is out in the open, the answer remains in the shadows.
Just sharpening up your metaphor, Minister!
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 08:32 AM
Yes, that is true Robert, although scientifically the question is simply not being addressed.
WmRoy
Oct 21 2007, 12:31 PM
QUOTE(Minister of Information)
yet some of the evidence is non-dismissible
Please elaborate? What evidence is non-dismissible? I can think of nothing that is uncontested?
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 03:03 PM
QUOTE(WmRoy @ Oct 21 2007, 01:31 PM)

Please elaborate? What evidence is non-dismissible? I can think of nothing that is uncontested?
I put the P-G film, some of the footprint evidence, some of the statistical work that has been done, and the collective weight of credible sightings into that category. Non-dismissible yet not enough to be definitive.
Bitter Monk
Oct 21 2007, 03:23 PM
A person can dismiss anything that they choose to dismiss, regardless of whether or not that dismissal is or isn't justifiable.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 03:39 PM
And whether or not it is justifiable is a matter of opinion. Yet we still argue about it. Go figure.
Crow Logic
Oct 21 2007, 04:08 PM
PGF is an unusual flim to say the least. But it hasn't produced a single shred of conclusive hard science and it is itself an artifact that is surrounded by quesitonable circumstances and personages. It's not unlike the Trent UFO photos taken during the early 1950's. They've never been proven to be a hoax yet nothing of true scientific meaning has ever come from them. And so it is with PGF. I'll say what I've been thinking for a while and that is whatever Roger Patterson caught on film that day is no longer here. That is to say the creatures of its kind are extinct. There is no other explaination that satisfies me other than the film and the entire Sasquatch/Bigfoot phenomonon is a hoax and fanciful construction of our need for the unknown. If it was still with us we'd have found it by now.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 04:24 PM
As far as opinions go, crow logic, that is certainly one that is justifiable. Of course, there are others it is possible to say that about as well. I guess a lot of this boils down to our personal sensibilities. P-G says "real" to me, yet it is perplexing that Patty and her kind have managed to remain hidden after all this time. I think that is the central enigma of the whole subject: if they are real, how are they so elusive. And, that is the question that interests me the most and the one that I spend most of my time speculating about.
Bitter Monk
Oct 21 2007, 04:31 PM
QUOTE(Minister_of_Information @ Oct 21 2007, 04:39 PM)

And whether or not it is justifiable is a matter of opinion. Yet we still argue about it. Go figure.
It's what keeps this place hopping.
Crow Logic
Oct 21 2007, 04:47 PM
PGF says real to me way more often than not. I am perplexd and somewhat dismayed by the emergence of reports spanning nearly all of the lower 48 states. There's simply too much activity reported with nothing of substance to show for it. It is much easier for me to focus on the PNW as the area where there was bonified Sasquatch activity by a very small relic population of these creatures. Said population was on its last legs when Roger Patterson happened along to film one. These creatures live on in the popular collective mythology to be reported in suspeciously diverse places and in increasingly suspeciously large numbers (by virtue of the proposed range) to maintain virtual undetection. Why do we perpetruate these things? Well its fun, it gives us the delight of pondering the unknown and perhaps the unknowable. I for one would rather think about what is actually on the PGF than to contemplate having to pay my taxes or consider that my car will need tires soon or most of the other things that requirs our thought during the daily grind.
Minister_of_Information
Oct 21 2007, 05:46 PM
Ubiquitous and elusive are two concepts that are hard to reconcile. Do that and you've solved the mystery.
WmRoy
Oct 21 2007, 06:36 PM
QUOTE(Minister_of_Information @ Oct 21 2007, 04:03 PM)

I put the P-G film, some of the footprint evidence, some of the statistical work that has been done, and the collective weight of credible sightings into that category. Non-dismissible yet not enough to be definitive.
Hardly non-dismissible............ inconclusive at best.............. sorry.
Now there are a few sightings that I do take very seriously, but that's a topic for a different thread.
RogerKni
Oct 21 2007, 07:58 PM
QUOTE(WmRoy @ Oct 21 2007, 05:36 PM)

Hardly non-dismissible............ inconclusive at best.............. sorry.
If it could be replicated, it would be inconclusive. I.e., it might be real, or--since it can be replicated--it might be a fake. Lots of UFO footage is in that category. For instance, the film
2001, made in the 60s, has real-looking spaceships, etc. And amateur-level trickery can produce real-looking UFOs, including movie footage. So they're inconclusive--i.e., dismissible, if you're so inclined.
But UFOs are stable, simple geometric forms. It's much harder to mimic an animal's complex surface and show Patty-like surface plasticity in a motion-video using 1967 technology (before computer special effects)--e.g., a spandex apesuit + an underlying muscle suit + arm-extenders. In fact, it hasn't been achieved, not remotely. Until it has been, the PGF can't be waved aside with the thought, "It could easily have been hoaxed, just like all the other real-looking known hoaxes we're familiar with, so it's not a puzzlement--and therefore it carries no real evidentiary 'weight,'" the way a piece of real-looking UFO footage could be.
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