Looking at a class B report on the BFRO site (#6922) and find
myself intrigued by what appears to be a very scared deer.

Very easy to draw the inference that the deer is using the
campsite for "protection" and the rock throwing is to entice
it to leave that area (so it can be hunted down?).

BFRO report #6922

Another terrified deer, hiding behind a fisherman this time:My Webpage

may need to edit the link PGH it aint working.

Robert

Try this; http://www.gcbro.com/ORlane005.html .....or go to the Gcbro, US sightings , Oregon , Lane Co,"60s,90s several reports combined" and read last report.....

Wouldn't it be interesting though, if the sas were actually trying to whack Bambi upside the head for an easier catch?

ya, I know, but like I said, it would be interesting.

Redwolf

ahhh but that is the point RW...

"Damn deer is down there with the hairless ones, troublemakers
that they are, and I can't just go down there, I might be seen,
maybe if I throw rocks and scare the deer enough so that it bolts
outta there, THAT"S THE TICKET!!!"

Hitting the deer with a rock is low probability, but scaring it out of
an area isn't, esp if someone is waiting in ambush on the other side...

Amen to that...

When myself and my cousin witnessed such rock throwing behavior, we did exactly that -

High tailed our butts outta there...

Well, I got the point, but I was just trying to make another and obviously failed in my sleep deprived state of mind

RW

Gotcha My line of reasoning was thus,

Most apes can fling objects with some measure of accuracy,
being able to hit a large object without much difficulty. Hitting
a head or breaking a leg requires more accuracy and some
velocity, harder to pull off. If they were trying to hit said deer
I'm betting rocks would've landed on or very near the campers
themselves.

Throwing NEAR, but not in the immediate area, might produce the
effect of scaring brer' deer enough to make him bolt. Voila.

Now this brings up a question of, does squatch fear retribution from
us? Some here fear retaliation from them if we cause harm as
evidenced by posts to that effect. I wonder if they fear what we
can do to them, and can they think in the abstract of cause and effect.
"If I throw rocks at those damned hairless things maybe I can scare them
away from this tasty berry patch, but if I hit one will it attack me?"
Interesting if they fear us the same as most humans do them.

This is gonna go down the road of "can animals use reason" but that's
not why I asked the retribution question, and note I didn't just say scared
of us.

Now that's an interesting question. I'm going to guess yes, assuming they understand what a gun is (and I think there's some evidence they do).

As far as their accuracy throwing rocks goes, we met a guy named Steve at Bluff Creek who claims to have been hit in the back of the head by a sasquatch-thrown rock. I think they're probably pretty good shots.

Who knows. They may have organized leagues built around rock throwing. Could be their 'national pastime'. I mean, what else do they have to do?

Yes, it does seem like the deer was scared and was seeking shelter between the tents. But why would the sas hesitate to come near the tents if there was a free meal right there? (I've heard stories of them coming right up to tents and even touching/trying to open the flaps) They must have a great apprehension of us but it makes one wonder why? Do they think we might have a gun? Are they simply that afraid of being seen? Interesting.......

(my theory: some must just have bigger ba--s than others!)

Good points Susan. I'm not sure about them knowing we might have a gun either. If they do know about guns, wouldn't it have to mean that 1) they had encountered a person/hunter before,who had actually fired a gund around/at them, or 2) that the word has passed around between them that "those sticks they carry spit fire"?

I'm not saying that none of them would be afraid of people with guns, but I don't think the majority of them would know what the heck a gun is.

I think they just know that people are not something they should trust. Curious yes, but mostly cautious.

I agree, Jaylee. It just seems interesting in this case that the sas never approached. I've read in some reports of tents and humans in them not stopping them from approaching before, but they are all probably different. Perhaps this one was extra cautious, maybe an adult and not a risk-taking juvenile. An adult would be more likely to have experienced a man with a gun and would therefore be more cautious.

ok, I've probably said enough on the subject, of which I know very little about first-hand.

Just a thought here.
what if they use sticks to intimidate each other.

Given the speed at which they can move,they see someone with an intimidation stick and try to outrun the holder of the stick.

We are assuming a great deal of intelligence if we were to say" they assume we would have a gun."How much do they know about us,enough to conceal themselves on the most part.Are they just afraid of the unknown.

I wonder if the rock throwing would have occurred anyways without the tents.It could be a way to herd the animal upwind to get close enough.

I'm sort of thinking the deer might have been just an innocent bystander... in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Because I'm not sure throwing stones in the direction of a deer is gonna result in any predictable response... maybe to run into the wind? Downhill? I would have to know more about deer behavior...

I think the stone throwing was meant for the humans exclusively...

Hey, it's been a long, hot, dry summer, and he's bound to be getting a little edgy with no women folk nearby... they probably wouldn't be that high when there is much denser vegetation down at the lower elevations...

Boys will be boys...

And frightened that poor deer half to death, probably...

Hey, wear your helmets when squatchin', folks...

I don't think that is assuming that they are too smart, I believe even a deer knows when hunting season is going on. They move to other areas deeper in the woods during deer season from what I understand. They learn from being shot at.

Ok RB ya caught me

So the first post was a minor troll, the statement also runs counter
to my Krantz quote as well. I wanted some more BF talk and
Bipto has been trying to steer us from certain topics.

Very tough to guess the intent of the rock throwing, period. The report
did intrigue me though, as do all reports of apparently deliberate
interaction.

As far as animal reaction to rock throwing goes, any 8 yr old boy can
answer that. FLEE!!! The closer the rock, the sooner the critter will
take off.

Trolls!?! Where? Quick, check your wallets!

I just think you would throw at rock at something if you wanted it to flee…

Unless you were trying to kill it with the rock…

But I wouldn’t throw a rock at something I was hunting, unless I was trying to hit it… and then I would fear if I did miss, I might go hungry…

So if I were hunting something with the intent of eating it, I wouldn’t throw any rocks that weren’t intended to kill…

So in that respect… the only reason I would toss huge rocks into someone’s camp without any apparent aim, would be to intimidate them, and to get them to flee… not to eat them…

But if I were a Bigfoot, and if I wanted to eat them, I would be having a really good belch with gore-tex breath right about now… because it would already be a done deal…

Besides, eating them or making them flee, I'd think rock throwing could be a diversion used to slip by or hope to steal something.

Brenda!?! You're not my cousin Brenda, are you!?!

Even if you are, welcome!

I'd lob a rock if I wanted to test the perimeter of something without giving away my location.

My impression, when I talked with the witness, was that they were the targets, not the deer. I can't imagine a bigfoot spending three hours trying to get a deer to move so they can "get it." I mean, I love candy bars, but pitching rocks at one for three hours trying to get it to move toward me just an't worth my energy. The deer seemed to "know" that a bigfoot was there and choose to stay there for safety.

What I find the most interesting was that no one was ever hit by one of the rocks. Even with my horrible aim, I would eventually hit something. That says to me that even though it wanted the campers to move out of its territory, the bigfoot wasn't willing to cause harm in order to achieve that goal. This is completely consistent with every rock throwing report I've ever investigated.

Kathy

Thanks for your insight, Kathy.

[fawning moment] It's undeniably cool having the actual investigator hanging around to give us their take! [/fawning moment]

Hi Kathy-

Are you the same Kathy that gave the talk on the Native American petroglyph at the Bigfoot Symposium?

I can't find info about it anywhere on the web (except the BFRO article), not even at the Smithsonian.

I'd love it if you have any links you could post that discuss either the petroglyph or the Native American myths surrounding it. tia-


(I guess if I can't find ANYTHING on the web, then anthropologist's haven't really investigated it.)

Actually RB my premise was that the rocks were lobbed in an attempt
to drive the deer away from the camp toward an ambush. The deer
obviously knew where the rocks were coming from and would most likely
flee in the opposite direction. Lots of generalizations on this obviously.

Three hours of rock tossing is a minimal outlay for a deer carcass. There are
examples of predators using far more resources for much less returns.
Bears turning over scree fields for marmots and ground squirrels, Chimps chasing
colobus monkeys thru the jungle canopy. As a matter of fact the chimps do that
as an organized hunt, in which the colobus is chased by males thru the forest
toward an older experienced male who ambushes it. Hmmmm...

And Chronic, throw a rock at my compound and if I see it come in, then I know
approximately where your pos is.

Thanks for adding the insight Kathy. Nice to have the investigator speak up
I don't think the hairy guys wanted to hit the campers, never did...

at 1am, are you noctournal?

I think Bigfoot is a creature that learned the hard way what happens when you harm a human being. Throughout the ages they saw us take down game even a squatch wouldnt even attempt. They watched us turn our prey into homes, and weapons. I have a feeling they they know we are the top predator, and not an animal to be messed with. They probably know we will come back in force and stop at nothing to get the assailant.

So it's a semantics argument you want Chronic?

I'm guessing that anyone with a "perimeter" is going
to control it, i.e. going to the trouble to see that it's
not breached. If I'm a camper sleeping in the mountains,
I don't really have a "perimeter" as such. Usually a "perimeter"
is set to insure someone/something doesn't enter an area.
Don't bother pulling Webster, I'm working with the way you
used the word.

Yeah, at 0100 I prolly would see it, I tend to crash late anyway,
usually around 2 AM.

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, if I'm in the woods, I'm probably
thinking about our hairy buddy, so I'd be up for his silly little
games

Welcome Brenda!

Hey chronic… where did you that trick to test the perimeter? In commando school?

Thanks for your personal insight to the report, Kathy!

Brian is right to fawn over you, Kathy! And when he’s done… it’s my turn…

And skunkie… maybe they’re just peace luvin’ creatures…

Yep, we're are unfortunately, one in the same. There isn't anything on the web about this site as of yet, because I haven't had time to do it. Vancouver Museum is using my photos and article in their exhibit and compendium, but that isn't due to be out until June, 2004. I'll really, really try to get something out very soon on the BFRO website.

As far as I know, I am the only one doing these types of studies. Lots of archaeologists study rock art but since this is the only known bigfoot rock art anywhere in the west (maybe even in the US), I am the only one I know of who has studied it in depth. So, not finding anything else on the web doesn't surprise me at all.

My goal is to "awaken" other professional archaeologists (besides Reid Nelson) to this study topic. Archaeologists have a lot of skills to offer, for example I took apart a "bigfoot nest" and excavated it using arch methods. Didn't find out much...but still, it was a resource type that archaeologists have ignored.

And just as a side note, thank you to everyone who has welcomed me. If I had known you were all going to stroke my ego, I would have joined a long time ago!!!

Kathy

Cool!



Say, do you have an opinion on what these petroglyph's might symbolize?

http://content.lib.washington.edu/cgi-bin/...oc&CISOPTR=1013


tia-

They certainly like to be left alone, thats for darned sure. But I remember seeing reports, mainly Native American legends of not so friendly Bf's, Maybe the bad ones died off, or learned their lesson.

Okay, here is a little about rock-throwing incidents that my family had. There were numerous times but this was the last time it happened. It happened over 10 years ago. My husband was a teen and was sitting around the fire, partying with a bunch of friends. The rocks started flying from out of the woods. Most missed but one guy was struck on the forehead. It bled. My husband went inside for something and as he exited, a rock was thrown and smashed out the porch light. He had had enough and went back inside and got his gun. He loaded it with bird-shot (they all thought it was locals and he wasnt aiming to kill anyone). He went down the driveway shooting the shot into the woods and hollering the whole time. Well, the rock-throwing stopped and never happened again.

Questions: So was it an accident that the guy was hit in the forehead? Were the BFs just messing with them? They had done this before, on other occasions. This was the last time it happened. Maybe one took some shot in the butt? Imagine: BFs getting a kick out of picking on these hairless guys and then one night they are assaulted by hundreds of these little stinging rocks. Okay guys, this isnt so much fun anymore! It's interesting, this incident. I have learned a lot from these types of experiences. But still, they do make me think a lot.

Oh I have soooo many questions now

But wow, actually hit one of the guys huh? Had anyone ever
heaved rocks back before or retaliated in any way?
and I note that something was accurate enough to hit the
porch light. Is our hairy pal like humans in the aspect that
some have good eye/hand coordination and others don't?

On that note, has anyone heard of reports where someone
threw anything back at the unseen rock/tree/junk throwers?
And what the outcome of that was if any?

Hey Howling. We havent talked about the rock-throwing in awhile. Guess I could rehatch the subject with my honey. Problem is that we work opposite shifts and I dont see us having a sit-down til Sunday afternoon or evening. Yup, one guy was hit. There were many others that werent. I do believe that my bro-in-law said that on another occasion (my hubby wasnt there), that him and his friends threw rocks back. I do believe that my husband shooting the gun was probably more threatening than any previous retaliations. I believe this because that was the LAST time it happened. For the most part, the retaliations were with words. A lot of cussing and screaming into the woods.

One thing of importance is that at the time of these incidents and all these years, until I started my BF research, these incidents were blamed on humans. I know it is hard to understand but noone had any info on BF then. It was never thought of and actually, BF was a myth to us all, prior to my sighting. Once I was privy to the info that BFs threw rocks then my husband recanted the incidents. Well, you might say, how do you know it wasnt humans? Too many similarities and other factors. The location, the fact that it always happened at night, the direction the rocks came from...always....not easily accessible to humans. The fact that the culprits were never found, no matter how much effort was put into trying. There were never any sounds associated with the rock-throwing, just the rocks. The fact that the rocks were thrown with an arch (something repeatedly claimed with BF activity). And many other things. I will talk with my husband and get back to you on some more details.

I've seen these petroglyphs before. They do look like feet, don't they! I believe they are in Idaho, but now I can't remember. I worked in Nevada for many years and we had petroglyphs that looked like this, but we called them War Masks (symbols of male power). They are pecked in the Anasazi/Fremont rock art style, so are several thousand years old.

Petroglyphs like these are hard to really pin down. If they are feet, there would be no way to prove they are related to bigfoot, because humans often drew representations of their own body parts (ever seen a Basque tree carving??). That is what makes the Hairy Man pictos so unique....no only does it look like a bigfoot, but there are tons of stories that go with it. How lucky is that???

Kathy

Yeah, they are on a lake in Idaho. I've paddled by them many times in a canoe.

Interestingly enough, this thread mentions rock throwing. I've never had that, but about a mile from those petroglyphs I had a rock tumble down a mountainside 3 times about even with my canoe. It's a steep, rocky mountainside, so sure rocks are naturally gonna loosen and roll down. I just found it odd that each time I heard/then saw a rock tumbling down, it was just about even with where I was paddling along the shoreline. coincidence? probably, but still odd enough that after the third time in about as many minutes, I decide to continue my outing a hundred yards offshore (chicken$hit).

My take on the whole rock-throwing story with the deer..... (forgive me if this was mentioned before)

Do you think the rock-thrower was trying to get the hairless bipeds in the tent to leave so it could have-at the deer? The deer seems obviously to be seeking shelter/comfort near the tents, I'm sure it had no doubt what was out there. Rock throwing seems like a way to intimidate, so to me it seems like the logical reason is to scare the humans away. The deer could be there by coincidence and may not have been the main reason for the rock throwing.

I'll stop now as I don't seem to be making much sense to myself

scaring the humans away from the deer is a subtle difference from
scaring the deer away from the tents, but it IS in fact a different tack
on the same problem if it in fact is the problem (seperating the deer
from those hairless apes).

Oh Ang, now see you've got me going in a couple of different directions

The person that was hit, was he one of the ones that threw rocks back
earlier? that could be a possible sign of retaliation (see that hairless
putz? he hit me with a rock after I offered to play catch)

Take note of the fact that arcing a rock in has two things I'd associate
with it. First, it is more difficult to hit a target lobbing than it is with a
direct throw (not for all I realize). Second, a lob like that is not really
an angry throw. I think back to childhood and whipping dirt clods
back and forth as kids. It's all harmless fun until someone gets hit,
then it takes on a deadly seriousness. From easy throws to flat trajectory
throws meant to hurt. Big difference.

Got me thinking...

Back again. Well, I made a big, big goof up on some of my info. I said that my husbands friend was hit by one of the rocks (see above post ). I talked a little to my husband, on my way to work. He had just enough time to get home and drive me, so we could get some time together. He said that in his incidents noone ever got hit by a rock. He said they came close but never hit. I dont know if it was his one brother that had a friend that got hit or what. I will have to bring the subject up with him again and I dont know when that will be possible. He, to this day, doesnt know about BF. He might have some kind of clue but I never told him about my sighting. I have questioned him about his rock-throwing incidents, nonchalantly of course.

Okay, I know the next question is going to be "And, why havent you told him?" Hard to explain without writing a couple pages so I will try the straight to the point and short way. After I told my side of the family I got ribbed pretty bad. I come from a family of great white hunters and it's just not possible for there to be BFs in MI without them knowing. They've spent too much time all over the MI woods for there to be something like a BF there and them not knowing it. This was a hard thing to endure, from your own family members. My husband and I have decided not to "spill the beans" to his side til we have some kind of proof. Now, we have told his one brother, who does believe because he has had strange incidents himself. We all talked about it last year and we decided it might be a good idea not to tell the rest of the family just yet. For one, their dad has never been too keen on going out in the woods anyway. He almost never likes to go north. When he does, you wont get him in the woods. He doesnt go beyond the perimeters of the yard. Unless he is on his ATV or vehicle. He doesnt hunt and never hikes. The mother-in-law loves wildlife but doesnt quite grasp the reality of most wild animals...hard to explain in so few words. The other brother has 5 small kids. We just dont want to scare them with the reality of BF. Once we learn more and can explain how it would be way more likely to die on a highway than from a BF AND show some kind of physical proof, then we will probably have a family meeting. I have wanted to tell them on many occasions but when it comes down to it, and with the wishes of my hubby and his brother, I just dont. Secretly...sshh.. ...I think my father-in-law has probably had something BF related happen some time in the thirty years he has been frequenting BF areas. I have my reasons for believing that and it sucks to not be able to ask him. His fear of the area is a clue and also how much he likes that Dogman CD. I burnt him a copy of it and he keeps it in his truck and talks about it to everyone he knows and meets. Listens to it quite a bit. He was really happy when I gave him a copy and wouldnt quit bugging me til I did. Okay, hope that explains that.

Also, some more info I got out of hubby in our 15 minute drive together....The rock-throwing was one year. It started in the winter and continued into the spring and possibly summer. I dont want to mess up my info anymore than I already did so I will wait till I have more time to grill him.....He gets frustrated trying to remember details and me wanting to know exact info. I want to get this straight for whoever reads this and he could care less about the internet. Says not to even worry about saying anything. He doesnt want any trouble or attention. Neither do I but I do feel like I should share when the occasion arises. I get so much from this here forum and I like to give back when I can. Okay, enough from me for now. I will get back when I can get more correct info.

Thanks Angie, I for one appreciate the forthrightness with which
you approached this. Don't go getting in trouble at home as
you don't owe anything to anyone. Nice to have the info but
not at your expense.

Still interesting that they had the incident over a long timeframe.

Funny when you first mentioned your F-I-L not wanting anything
to do with the woods and I thought hmmm, naahhhhhh. Then a
few lines later you hint that you suspect as well. Interesting
(no, don't pursue that )

Thanks

Just read your post, Howling, after I posted my last one. So sorry about the incorrect info...I really feel like an ass but I do want to get this straight. I still dont know if anyone was actually hit or not. It has been a couple years since I talked to my bro-in-law about his incidents. Very well could have been someone hit and it very well could have been in retaliation. Just not in my husbands incidents. This is what I do remember him saying about his: He had friends with him. Some were staying in a camper and some were staying in a tent. The rocks that were being thrown were of a pretty big size. He said some were the size of your hand. The people in the camper were okay but the ones in the tent were moved inside because they could have been hurt. The rocks were thrown in arches, (remember he knows nothing of BFs and them throwing in arches). There was a dent put in the siding of the house from a rock and dents in the camper roof. Okay, that is all I can say for a certainty. I would like to get back with him and get more correct info. I will do that in the next couple of weeks. Im not sure yet how I will do that without giving a reason as to why Im asking again, two years later, but I have to find a way to make sure I can give a decent account.

Very cool stuff Angie..
For some reason, the rock throwing stuff gave mi minor flashbacks to my recent "incident" with the electronic predator call up in that same area.
Just "seemed" similar for some reason. Not really sure why, given that I had nothing tossed my way..but the mental image of something silently tossing rocks from the woods, for some reason, seemed strangely similar to my incident of something large crashing towards me, then going totaly silent.
And, I really gotta get ahold of that radio station up in T.C. and get that CD!

May I ask a couple of questions?

What is this Dogman CD and where can a person get it? also....

Angie, is there somewhere I can go to read about your sighting? I'm a newbie and I don't want to make you re-hash it if there's a link or something somewhere.

Thanks!

Susan, here's a link to the thread where Angie found the lyrics to the song:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?act...=1336&hl=dogman

Ang, q for ya. If I read this right, a guy got hit. I'd like to know the size of the rock that did connect. I understand the ones lobbed in an ark were handsized and I presumed this is significantly smaller? thanks
on the fly here and if i am wrong, ooops. :rolleyes:

Hey Susan, I'll have to look for that link to my sighting on here. Wish me luck! Stacy gave the link to the Dogman CD.

Thanks Stacy!

SR, I dont know if anyone got hit just yet. I seem to recall that someone did. Just not one of hubbys friends. I will have to talk with my bro-in-law about his incidents. My husband was not present when those happened. Different trips. I explained as best as I could in my posts on the previous page and this page about my incorrect info (maybe incorrect, have to talk to bro-in-law). Also I explained the situation and how I have to come up with a way to spark a conversation without giving away my BF interest. He doesnt know about BF and when he tells it he is still baffled by it and wonders how these "people" pulled it off without exposing themselves. They looked for them and couldnt find them. It really is some good info when I do spark up the conversation. The distance that those big rocks were thrown was quite a ways from the woodline and he did state that he wouldnt have been able to throw them that far. I remember asking then how would someone else and he just looked baffled, shrugged his shoulders and said "I dont know." I promise to follow through and find out but it may take some time. Im going north next weekend, not this weekend. I had to delay a week. So am trying to get those plans worked out first.

Edit: Ha! I found it. First time I used that search tool. That is way cool! Here is the link Susan.
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?act...&hl=my+sighting

Thanks, Angie, for the link! I enjoyed reading your sighting. Did you ever go back up there and ask the locals about weird occurances?

Stacy, thanks for the link with the Dogman lyrics. Definitely a creepy song! What style of music is it?

Thanks A

what a perfect situation to grab more information
by going with a "had to be guys" take.
You gain less stress in your exchanges from your source
and perhaps some descriptions of things that happen(ed) that
might not seem to have much to do with the situation. But might turn
out to be associated. ooooo.
Thanks for that. And, as always, good luck with it.

You're welcome, Susan and Angie! I've never actually heard the song myself, so I personally have no idea about its style....anyone else???