From two different angles, indicating a time lapse between when the photos were taken

If that is muscle definition it is out of proportion

That does not change over the time lapse between photos, as a mask would not change expression

Except for the long white beard, and the rest of the fur is similar to what is used to make Chewy suits

Like in the Chewy suits

Which is not found in monkeys or apes

You've seen masks keep their mouths open before.

That should be the other way around, if this is real you want to know when, why, what, and who, but we'll never know these things because the hoaxer is anonymous.

If you want to give up on this, be my guest. But I get to choose what I am interested in all by myself, and this is quite a puzzle. If we cannot figure out how the images were created by a hoaxer then maybe we should think about the alternatives...

Animals do not chew with their mouths closed.

It's a fake because the mouth is open? Or that no photographs show the mouth closed? So, it's possible the two photos in existance were taken when the animal was chewing and unfortunate timing resulted in two open-mouth shots? Shouldn't one at least consider what it is they are criticizing, and how easily...or even effortlessly it might be explained?

As for the 2nd photograph having yellow eyeshine, I believe the yellow only significantly shows up during major enlargement. The original photo has as much a red tint as a yellow one.

Proving one can "fake" the eye shine proves only that one is more interested in debunking than actually investigating the truth. Yes, one can exert a lot of effort debunking, but without putting the same effort into attempting to duplicate the effect naturally indicates that one's mind is already made up. And I've had people like that tell me I'm closed-minded.

Dan

Dan

If the Myakka eye shine is easy to duplicate, that is worth knowing. My eye shine experiment may be providing evidence that this is not a hoax. I'll try it again tonight with some full-head masks and see if it looks better, but the mardi-gras mask experiment was not very impressive. Meanwhile, other people please submit your real eye shine examples!

wolftrax has said that eyeshine does not occur in monkeys or apes. I'm afraid I disagree with that, what on earth is redeye in photographs of people ( who just happen to be primates ) the choroid is present in all primate eyes and it is that which causes eyeshine in people ( on photographs anyway ), so why not apes? I'm not saying I accept the photographs as a genuine "skunk ape" I would need more evidence, tracks for a start maybe. I also disagree that the photos were taken from 2 different angles, what I'm seeing is one photo taken after the other whilst moving towards the subject; the second pic just seems a little closer. I'm no expert in photo analysis I'm just offering what I'm seeing, and I'm seeing an animal.

None of us are "experts...," we just play them on internet boards.

Dan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_effect


Red -eye, is a reaction to a flash of light; it is a reflection from the retina.. It does not persist if the light is continuous, or after the light source is removed.


More info on the tapetum lucidum ...

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi...ll/?cookieSet=1

This has already been explained, red eye is seen in humans and is caused by the light from flash photography reflecting the blood vessels at the back of the eye, while yellow eyeshine is caused by the tapetum lucidum, which monkeys and apes do not possess.




Then the only other option is that the subject has the magical ability to enlarge and reduce it's forehead and eyes.

Here we see various photos of orangutans eating, compared to the Myakka photo. Notice in all the photos of the orangs eating we see the same pattern, they use their hands to bring the food to their mouths, then hold the food with their lips. In all the photos you see the lips are over the food.

Now look at the Myakka photo, the hands are nowhere near the mouth, the edges of the leaf are outside the lips, even the top lip does not go over the leaf. It shows no signs of ever being over the leaf.

Why? Because somebody stuck the leaf to the mouth for effect.

I am SO impressed that you found that many pictures of Orangitans eating! Do you have any pictures of them showing their teeth in a threat display?

With food in/on it's mouth? no.

Hi:

In my book, Morgoth has posed precisely the question as to why these photos still elicit such interest.

There's nothing wrong, probably everything right, about trying to determine a decent explanation of just exactly what the hell is in the photographs. (uh oh, Silver Star Mountain creeps in here too) No whys, just hows and whats.

And a big nod to Dan C for one of his earlier posts. Most believers do want a rigorous research to demonstrate if such "evidence" can pass the mustard or not.

If it can't, screw it.

I do not believe it is a "BF" necessarily, but I do lean toward the subject being a real critter of some flavor. Orange-Tang, Uncle Bob, CF in a ghillie suit, whoever or whatever. A damned good pair of hoaxed photos, if such is the case.

I do bemoan the circumstance that the photographer has not come out of her (perhaps, his) anonymity to explain.

I can't blame 'em for that though.

Whither Myakka.......................

Quo Vadis?

Still good questions regarding this type of "evidence" to ponder until sounder answers are forthcoming.

DR

Hi Wolftrax:

I understand that you might be coming from a skeptical viewpoint. That's okay. But, I did want to present a comparison of photos like you presented to me. Guess which battles are more likely to be chosen to join up and fight for by most believers. Speaking for myself, I do hold myself up to higher standards than joining a rhubarb for normal run of the mill hoaxes.

Do I ponder these?

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Or rather, do I ponder this:

Click to view attachment

Or This:

Click to view attachment

Or This:

Click to view attachment

Or These?:

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

There's Bush League hoaxes, then there are Major League Hoaxes. The Bush League's for everyone. Only a few can play in the Majors, and I would like to know how they got there. I think researching a hoax to determine it is precisely that is worthwhile.

DR

(Wish it was Kathy Ireland below.)

An interesting photo..

Click to view attachment

I 've been following this post, and your photo is cool. I have also heard the theory that the pix were taken at night at a zoo of an old Orang. Do old Orangs get darker hair as they age ? I have always been of the opinion that this is a "out of place " old monkey, not the Skunkape.

Does anyone else notice the reddish tint to the Myakka's fur ?

I have tried to study this without my Bigfoot blinders on, expecting the Myakka ape to look like a classic Bigfoot. I am not convinced the photos are hoaxed, but without a decent report to go with the photos, they may as well be.

Hi Joppa:

Welcome! I agree that what you have heard is well within the realm of probability.

DR

And edited to second your thought that the critter looks more identifiable than reports of what a BF critter has appeared to be in many reports.

I promised a real mask with the yellow reflective tape. This is NOT as realistic and subtle as the eye shine in the Myakka photos. The mask eye holes leave a sharp edge, and the color is uniformly bright and flat.

Click to view attachment

It's a smoking gun in the form of a palmetto munching Orangutan... Now scare him, see if he shows his teeth!

Click to view attachment

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd just love to see where I can see/buy/order this suit...just once.

As for the foliage not moving...two photos and gravity. Who says the leaves don't move? You can see them move independently like a fan! If the animal was eating and then moved backwards, why shouldn't the foliage move with it's head?

And in regards to the "Wisconsin Dells stuffed display." I managed to find the original photos that the girl took on vacation. Not too many people noticed that in order to match the Myakka photo, it had to be flopped...damn.

tirademan

everyone has made fantastic points on both sides of the argument, it's great to be able to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. I think these photographs will remain a mystery, for now at least. Even if someone proves it could have been hoaxed; that ain't proof that it was.

Can someone in North America just hurry up and catch one please.

Can I ask - is the reflective tape showing through the whole of the eye openings? ie:

I apologize if this was covered before, but it would appear to me there is a pretty short time lapse between the two photos based on the relatively static position of the subject (unless one argues the subject was transfixed by the first flash as the photo taker states in the letter). Most cameras I have used require a decent amount of time to recharge between flashes. I would therefore have expected more movement from the subject between the two shots unless, as noted, it was mesmerized by the first flash, or the photos were posed with a more significant time period between them. I have not shot any pictures of apes at night with a flash so I do not know their typical reaction to such an event-perhaps someone here has had occasion to do so and can offer an opinion as to whether it is a reasonable reaction to expect.

Comparison of human teeth to that of an orangutan

Click to view attachment


Open mouth oranguatan
Click to view attachment

Pretty sure that's a grass, not palmetto leaves.

But not that that really matters. It amazes me how these pictures come every year or so and we beat all the same points around the same dead horse. I guess there's hope that someone will hit upon something new. But everyone here should reread all the older threads. I think an objective view would conclude, if forced, that it is likely a hoax of some sort and that we'll likely never really know for sure.

For all the reasons I've outlined or agreed with before, I'll continue to opine that it is definitely not an orangutan and not a real (nonhuman) animal of any other sort.

Apeman

Yes, your picture is accurate. We could try a smaller circle inside or something like that, please make suggestions. When I look at the Myakka photos there is more subtle shading and differences in luminosity than what I see with the reflective tape and the mask.



But there are some new developements, as far as I can tell:

Just now, Tirademan put the Ripley's Bigfoot theory to rest
The Japanese Letter about the orangutan suit has been debunked
We've got some better metrics for the size of the figure
We've established that both arms are moving in the picture
We found that picture of David Barkasy in the same pose as the ape
That saw palmetto is a food source, and that the leaves are munched
Lots of work on the eye shine issue, including the reflective tape experiment

Call me crazy, but I think we can continue to make progress figuring this out. Or at least we can add our coments here, and record the findings...

Thanks :icon14: . I can think of a number of different things to try - but I'm wary (as always) of providing hoaxing instructions in a handy easy-to-digest form :happy: . The full eyehole 'presentation' of the tape would seem to be the reason for the none too subtle effect I suspect.

OK Morgoth - you're cr.... :laugh: .

PS Was the suit debunked - or was it that it couldn't be readily found online? The fact it was supposed to be yak hair was interesting I thought.

The reason I say "debunked" is because that report had very specific information about yak hair and "illegally obtained African Colobus hair" for the white beard, etc. It was written as if someone had common knowledge about a popular Japanese Orangutan costume.

Because of the specificity, I was able to do a fairly exhaustive search in Chinese, Japanese, and English for any related words or pictures. And what I came up with again and again was... the original report.

I conclude from this that the original report as stated is erroneous. As a by-product of this effort I came across a small handful of Orangutan costumes and masks, but none of them were anything like Myakka, these pictures are a few posts back.

HOWEVER if someone can find any type of Orangutan costume, or especially a mask, PLEASE post it right here. Google's world-crawling search engine doesn't know everything...

Morgoth, the reflective tape tests are neat. Kudos for your efforts.

I contrast these photos against PGF from the point of view that each event contains distinct elements that fuel the discussion, and I don't think it much matters how many times the discussion has come up in the past as long as there are participants willing to have at it once again. We have a stable full of dead horses here, some are gently tapped upon from time to time, and some are ground into paste. In the scheme of things, the Myakka threads thus far have been downright cordial.
I think they are extremely interesting photographs that at least for me, will always have numerous 'why?' questions associated with them.

At the end of the day, I don't believe that these are photos of a skunk ape. That said, I don't know if I agree that they were hoaxed in the fashion suggested by some here either.

Sorry guys, wasn't trying to stifle any discussion on this. Just saying it never ceases to amaze me... but I guess it's a the natural cycle of things. Clearly there is something about these images that is compelling to many, perhaps I'm just over them. But I'll happily continue to play...

I probably need to fully reread this thread and will try to do so later, in the meantime here are some thoughts.

Did he? We know the original Myakka photos aren't reversed? Not sure "the Ripley's Bigfoot theory" necessarily entailed placement of that model anyway. For me it is mostly just a strange similarity. Inspiration? But I know that could work both ways.

Maybe.

That's pretty subjective and I'd argue has never really been an important factor.

I might have missed this but I think I disagree or at least remain totally unconvinced, starting with the fact that the appendage with digits is even supposed to be a hand in the first place.

Which shows ____?

Where is that part? You don't mean the grass (I think) eating orangutan photo do you?

No offense to anyone, but yes, we've proven that reflective tape is indeed reflective. But beyond that there seems to be little agreement about it matching or proving anything, much less the fact that it's taken so many pages to debate the difference between tapetal eyeshine, human red-eye, and the funny scleral IR effect. In fact I think there is still a question about whether or not it could be a normal, orangutan "eyeshine."



Please don't take this as condescending- I like the enthusiasm, am all for any healthy discussion, and encourage the continued experimentation. But I guess the cynic in me sees little to no progress on these images, just another 8 pages that newbies won't bother to slog through next year when someone else comes across these for the first time.

Respectfully,

Apeman

Hi Apeman,

The reason the size of the figure matters is that it could determine if this IS a normal orangutan, or something else. For example, just 20 miles North-East from Myakka, the Center for Orangutan and Chimpanzee Conservation has a large group of Orangutans in captivity:

http://www.prime-apes.org/index.html

And, on the menu, they regularly feed them palmettos, in a limited amount due to the heavy fiber. So they don't just eat the berries, THEY EAT THE LEAVES of the palmetto plant.

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/browse.html

And be sure to check out the Orangutan chutes. I sure hope that enclosure is secure!

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/orang%20chute%20section.html

But I hesitate to bring any of this up, because I'm sure you already knew all of this. After all, I'm just a stupid newbie who didn't bother to read the first 8 pages of the thread...

:biggrin:

Somebody stop me, but check the dates on this escape...



http://www.prime-apes.org/html/butch.html

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/chip.html

http://www.neavs.org/programs/brochures/brochures_chimp.htm

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/residents.html

http://dmoz.org/Society/Organizations/Anim...lters/Primates/

Non-profit Wauchula, Florida organization providing permanent sanctuary for discarded and abandoned pets

Hilarious!

Kitty litter...

Hey Morgoth-

Keep forgetting to tell you that I love the avatar. And I meant no disrespect to "newbies," we've all been there and the newer people tend to be the lifeblood of a forum like this.

Good snooping on the palmetto leaves, I never would have guessed. He must have finished the apples. Now if we can figure out why an orangutan with some kind of glasses on would be using food as a moustache we can blow this one wide open! :new_lmaosmiley:

...wait, was there a thought that he'd escaped from the circus?

Click to view attachment

...but I digress.

I actually contacted someone I know from that facility about this case and possible escape (or palmettos in the enclosure) but have forgotten the outcome- which suggests no smoking gun.

What is your point about the chimp escapees? You're not now suggesting....

And how tall do we think it is? Does that jive with the photographers estimate of 6'6" - 7' CROUCHING? when she was ONLY TEN FEET AWAY? I guess we can't really trust her since she also said it froze between photos. :wink:

Now I've got to go reread the part about both hands moving....

Apeman

:laugh:

Funny, when I search the entire forum for "Chimpanzee Conservation" and "prime-apes" I find... my own post. Please, dear reader, verify. It's getting harder and harder to take you seriously, Apeman. Here's a suggestion: less satire, more research.

My takeaway from this is huge:

The largest Orangutan refuge in America is 20 miles from Myakka
They feed them apples and palmetto leaves there
Pongo, one of the residents, is a hybrid of two different types of Orangutan
This is obviously prime climate for Orangutans to live comfortably
There is an underground of illegal pet sales & circus animals that needs to be investigated
There could be a population of Orangutans in the wild, possibly interbreeding

Meanwhile, go to www.prime-apes.org and make a cash donation, this is important work...

That's excellent advice! I'll get right to it... as soon as I finish posting all my personal email on the BFF.

Apeman

Just reading through the thread .. A good example of how this sort of thing should be looked at
from many points of view.



Has anyone noticed how the palmetto fronds the subject is holding in the hand
have a noticeably different texture than the other fronds in the picture.





Not sure what the significance might be , other than another part of the image
that doesn't look natural ...

A good look at a fresh scan of the original photos would be a nice thing to have...

I think ... the photos that we see, have been modified and enhanced in terms of color and contrast.
That may be supposition on my part, but I don't believe the Coleman images are pure originals. If so, that may muddy the waters of discussing hair color or eye-shine.

I'm tempted to email Dave Barkasy and see if he is burned out on this thing. Even if we can't talk skunk apes, we can talk herps.

Please do, although he hasn't responded to me. But I also think we can get the photos from the Sarasota Sheriff's office for examination, it's like the freedom of information act, but a state statute. We need very high resolution scans of these images, which Barkasy had at one point.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/23217/messa.../Better+Pics....

I also would like to examine the physical pictures themselves. Are they 35 mm prints? Digital printouts from a bubble jet?

Greg;

Good observation, but let me offer a reason this might appear suspicious, but could actually be innocent.

I get the impression this camera is one of those cheapie single focal length cameras. The film is probably of a 200 or 400 asa based on the grainy look to the photo. The figure is close to the point where the camera's flash will not effectively light it up like it does the palmetto leaves in the foreground and the glare from the palmetto leaves in the foreground also serves to make less distinct, the features of the photo which lay behind.

It doesn't take much distance behind to cause a loss of definition, particularly with a weak flash and brightly lit objects closer to the lense. Also, the angle of the leaf, if different from the ones in front would cause light to reflect differently, so that's not necessarily suspicious to me.

One of the photographs is interesting. Where everyone seems to suggest the palmetto leaves are suspended on the upper lip of the "creature...suit...what have you," I don't believe the photo shows enough to rule out that the palmetto leaves may in fact still be attached to an unseen stem. Unless someone can rule that out, we should consider it still a possibility. In fact, in the blowups, an honest appraisal would suggest this is frankly, quite likely.

Dan

Great sleuthing on the orang center in Florida Morgoth (!), but the subject of these photos is NOT an orangutan. If we need to revisit a list of similarities and differences to orangs so we can move past this, then I'll kick it off:

similarities to orangs (Bornean or Sumatran):

*apelike (eyes facing forward, relatively long arms)
*long hair (i.e., length more like and orang than a chimp or gorilla)


dissimilarities to orangs (Bornean or Sumatran):

*subject apparently nocturnal
*brownish rather than reddish pelage color
*facial hair pattern inconsistent with orangs
*teeth unusually white and "fresh-looking", i.e., not worn
*teeth (especially canines) less robust than orangs
*head disproportionately small with more hair on its head than orangs
*whether a hand or a foot evident in the bottom left of the photo, it's apparently flattened and splayed out in a fashion inconsistent with typical orangutan postures that leave the hands and feet looking "curled" or hooked. Orang's feet usually look like this even when standing or walking. If it's a hand, then the fingers look too short and broad.

I'm no ape expert, but I see more things that tell me the subject is NOT an orang than tell me that it is. We need to move past this notion that it's an escaped orang if we want to come to any deeper understanding of these photos. Orangutans are red herrings!

This sucker is a hoax or something else.

I am, of course, inclined to think it's a hoax considering the several red flags in the story and idiosyncrasies in the image, but I feel a lot more comfortable with that opinion when it's demonstrated how such a hoax can be pulled off. In this case, this is a darn good hoax. For example, somebody went to the trouble of putting relfective material on the eyes. (Or did they? Does anyone know if glass eyes whould "shine" in a photo like this?) In general, the "mask" is movie/museum quality.

Unless it's not a mask . . . but if it's a real face, it's not that of an orangutan. If it is, then coincidentally, it's the world's weirdest looking orang, with mutliple features that appear to fall outside the known statistical range for the species.

So I'm surprised that these photos don't get more play from bigfoot proponents. They strike me as convincing as the PGF - weird photographic evidence that cannot be satisfactorily debunked.

OK. Now I think it's an orang in a costume. Pongo, probably. Are there any cookies left?

It's been pointed out to me that Apeman studies great apes for a living. He probably does know someone at the Chimpanzee Conservation Center, and has obviously done a million times more serious research on apes than I have. Please allow me to retract the statement above and unconditionally apologize.

I agree that it is probably not an Orangutan, but look at these links:

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/radcliffe.html

Radcliffe was castrated, and never developed the cheek pads that a male Orangutan normally would have. This is a circus trick to keep them from becoming agressive, I think.

Here is another story about an ape named Pongo who is a cross between a Bornean and Sumatran orangutan:

http://www.prime-apes.org/html/pongo.html

So it is possible for new characteristics to emerge from breeding. Now check this out:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/08/Floridia..._outreach.shtml

Reading this story, you get a better feel for the whole situation down there. These links make me think that there could be some strange animals running around in the wild, perhaps modified for medical experimentation, or abused and then abandoned pets. Maybe even interbreeding strange animals...

But HOW WIERD is it that here we have the the largest Orangutan refuge in America just 20 miles from Myakka, where they feed them apples and palmetto leaves. Then we read the story about Grandma and the whoops in her back yard after apples are taken, and then she goes out there and snaps a picture of this giant figure munching on palmetto leaves. And this happens ONE MONTH after two new circus apes who have escaped in the past are transferred to the Chimpanzee Center... :ohmy:



Exactly. This is not a simple hoax. :icon_bang:

Personally I see nothing here a dedicated artistic hobbyist would be unable to duplicate - or in fact improve on.

Yes, it's intriguing - and the eye-shine would take a bit of experimentation to duplicate I imagine.

There has been a whole bunch of literature since at least the early '80's (not going to give it away for hoaxing's sake) that give step-by-step instructions for visual effects hobbyists/fans on how to do this kind of thing & far beyond...

I am wondering if the eyes could be explained by a photoshopped or some other non digital technique with a nocturnal flash picture of an alligator.

Good form. I'm of a mind that good behavior should get at least as much, if not more attention than bad.

Out of curiousity, Apeman, if you check in again - do you (or anyone else for that matter) look at these images and just bust a gut laughing? Are they just wholly awful to anyone?

great points made here. I'm especially impressed at the news of the sanctuary nearby but how far might an ape roam at night. The pics definitely show similarities to an orang utan but I'm not convinced. There are just too many things that can't be backed up, maybe if the person who wrote the letter came forward then, for me at least, that would lend credibility to the whole kerfuffle.

Another quick observation ..

Isn't it unlikely that the the teeth would show as white as they do ?

Shouldn't they be yellowish and darker ?

Of course colors can be altered/distorted at night with a flash, but I still don't think white would be a resultant color of real teeth, of a wild animal ..

Not necessarily. If you look at some third world countries in Africa, they've got pretty dazzlin' white teeth.... when they have them, I mean.