Over a month ago, I set out three bait stations in one of our research areas, the bait used were 3 pinwheels, 30 pounds of apples and oranges, and a jar of Peanut Butter.

The pinwheels were stuck in the ground about 75 feet from each other, with the apples and oranges divided evenly between two. The Peanut Butter was attached to some heavy twine and thrown over a y on a tree where it was about 8 feet high off the ground. The twine was then tied off to some vines on the ground behind the tree. I left the lid on the peanut butter so smaller animals couldn't get into it. No trail cams were set up as this was to be an extended baiting experiment. (The location is so remote, it takes several hours to work your way to it.)

After a week, 1 pinwheel and some of the apples and oranges were gone. We didn't get to go back up there until Saturday Dec 30, 2006 due to weather and deer season.

We made it up there at midnight and found that the other two pinwheels were missing, all but 10 oranges which had went bad and that the peanut butter jar had been pulled down, opened and what looked like a finger shoved into it. Upon closer examination of the peanut butter, it was discovered that possible dermal ridges had been captured in the peanut butter.

Looking at the twine, it had been pulled in two. Whoever or whatever got to it, instead of untying or cutting the twine from the vines, pulled the jar down and pulled the twine in two.

Heaven Forbid, not saying a bigfoot did it. All I am reporting here is that the peanut butter has what appears to be dermal ridges about four times the size of the ones on my fingers. Here are the pics, you decide for yourself what might have occurred here.

Interesting stuff!

So are you planning to plaster cast the top of the PB to preserve an image, or???? Better not let it get too warm, otherwise it will soften up and probably sag in the jar and you'll lose the impressions.

Anyhoo, I can't say much else but "Yeah, looks like a big rough skinned finger was in there" not an expert on dermals, congrats on the setup leading to collecting it though :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

Flash

Replace the peanut butter with a substance that would get a better print result. Play-Dough?? If it smells

different or is in a different shaped container next time may increase the curiosity level for another poking.

For sure try obtain a game cam for the next baiting trip. :guinness: Good job man...kick back and pat

yourself....can't wait to see the follow up on this one! Oh, did it screw the lid back on the jar?

Maybe try placing clear packing tape or duct tape sticky side out

on the baiting container to get some print or hair samples next time.

Things that make you go hummm I took two jars this year and just started walking spreading it on trees above my head . I put it on probly 50 trees I came back the next day and all of it was gone . Something was very busy that night licking all that peanut butter off all those trees .

As something unscrewed the lid, could there be prints on the top of the lid or the side of the jar? I know you handled the jar, but if you handled it sparingly, there could be prints. Examination of the prints could determine if it was a passing hunter that pulled down the jar OR something else. This technique might be easier than retrieving the ridges from the peanut butter itself. Then again, outside elements (rain or dew)could have taken the prints off. It would be interesting to hear a fingerprint expert weigh in on the subject. Just something to think about.

Interesting research ... definitely worth trying again.

I would get in contact with a biologist or chemist to know how to store this evidence. Because what are the chances of the elements morphing and rendering it then useless. As soon from the time whatever opened this jar to now, there must be chemical processes at work. Freezing seems good, but at what temp? However, could water molecules expanding ruin the dermals? Once it thaws, it could also ruin it.

Intersting enough, and its encouraging that, maybe, if it is bf they aren't as all-knowing as we think them to be.

Was the rope striped apart, its possibly doubtful a human could strip rope apart with their bare hands, a close-up of the rope at point of break?

Do you regret not having a game-cam set up?

Might want to try honey also. Leaves finger prints on the jar as well as hair.

It had been raining several days before we went back out there, and the lid was nowhere to be found. I had two other jars of peanut butter in the Blazer so I put them out without lids and put the lid on the one we found. Brought it home and immediately put it in the freezer to preserve it.

I would have like to put a trailcam out there, but the ones I use last about a week, and this was an extended experiment. (Basically, I want them to get used to the bait in the area, frequently coming up to get it)

Plans are, in February to camp out for several days near this site and see what happens. At that time, trail cams can be put out. Since trailcams are fairly expensive, don't want to leave them out without being nearby.

We thought about casting the prints and all in the peanut butter, but since most casting materials seem to warm up when mixed, it may cause the peanut butter to melt enough to do a bad cast. Looking at other ways to preserve the evidence.

Am considering trying to send it to Chilcutt so he can look at the prints in the PB.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I doubt any skeptic will let any discussion of "it could only have been a BF that broke the twine" fly, because they will rightly point out that a teenage kid could leap up, grab the PB jar and his weight would more than likely break it.



On the cam thing, I'd be inclined to rig up some "one shot" cams out of cheap 35mm cams from a thrift store or disposable cameras. Rigged to trigger with several pounds of force on the twine, by the pull on the twine. Make sure it needs a few pounds or any bird trying to land on the jar would trigger it. The aim would be to get the shot of whatever is pulling it down.

If rigging it by force is too tricky then you could do something like wrap 3lb monofilament, or regular sewing thread around the twine, only a foot longer, (a foot or a few inches spare at the cam end) so the twine has to part and the jar has to move a foot before the cam triggers.

If you had the money, wouldn't it be great to purchase this tracking device

If the lid of the jar is gone, perhaps its his new toy, maybe you could fit a tracking device to the underside of the lid, or inside of something attractive or useful as a tool.

Sorry if I missed this but, how high up off the ground was the peanut butter? Thanks

As far as the twine went, it is thick enough that it has quite a bit of strength to it. A teenager could have put enough weight on it to break it. But from the way I had the bait set up, it would have been easier to simply step over and untie the twine from the vines and let the peanut butter jar down. A typical teenager will almost always take the easy route. Jumping over 8 feet high to get a jar of peanut butter down when it is easier to just untie the twine holding it up there? And the twine was still attached to the vines.

Pic of the twine thickness.
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Pics of the piles put out at the beginning.

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The Pinwheel that was 20 feet away from the peanut butter, it disappeared.

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And the before pics of the pb when first set out.

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And just for yucks and grins, we found this nearby, each rock is about 30 pounds each.

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Still not saying a bigfoot did it, just saying the twine being broke instead of simply untying it from the vine makes it a mystery of sorts.




Over 8 feet Melissa. I figured only 1 thing would be able to reach it at that height, a bear could if it climbed up, but wouldn't be able to remove the lid. (Or at least I hoped a bear wouldn't be able to remove the lid :biggrin: )

Excuse my ignorance but what is a pinwheel? Is it one of those huge lolly pops? How big is the imprint in the peanutbutter in comparisan to your fingers? It looks to me like it peaked someones or somethings curiosity, you said it is pretty far out there,far enough to limit human factor? I know if I came up on a jar of peanutbutter hung 8 ft up in a tree out in the middle of nowhere I would be more than curious maybe even a bit scared. Nice work,do you feel like you are getting close to getting something?

One of those toy windmill/propeller type things.

This should give you the idea...
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q...G=Search+Images

Hey Darkwing,
I was checking my area down in oklahoma , and my peanut butter was hanging right by a cliff so that anything coming up to it would get caught on camera. Well, It looks like something came up the cliff side and tried my peanut butter! I told my wife it looked like a finger poke. couldn't really figure out why it was still attached to the string and not eaten up! As you know, my area is not too far from yours. I hope we can meet up there and sit out in the woods the second week of feb.

As far as comparison to my fingers, it is a little bit bigger than mine, but I have large hands and fingers from doing lots of manual labor when I was younger. The human factor is fairly low percentage wise, but most humans would more than likely untie the twine from the vine and lower the peanut butter down, rather than jumping up and trying to grab hold of the jar and rip it down. If you will do a search for my postings here on the BFF, you will see that we have been getting pretty close, just not close enough for pictures or video yet.

Driveroperator, thanks for the pic and the phone call, it does look like something might have been tasting to see what it was. IMHO

Darkwing,
You can see how high up the cliff is by looking at the picture, ( about 50 ft high) I was hoping to eliminate anything from sneaking up behind the camera, by placing it at the edge of the cliff facing towards the woodline. The area is where Steve and I found a possible climbing trail up the cliff and a broken twisted tree at the top with foot impressions. Will check the camera's again in feb. Man I love how long those cuddebacks last. (Up to 2 months so far) also darkwing, have you ever put out the pinwheels before this time? Was it because of our conversation about using them? just curious. It would make me feel good if something I may have suggested ,worked for someone.( i know they have for me)

driveroperator was your lid screwed on too, or was the jar open?

After puting out bait many times I am starting to think they know this came from us and they leave it alone but sometimes they cant help them selfs . Like this he wanted it and he tasted it but he knew not to take it becouse it came from a human they may be able to reason enough to know we may come looking for it if it is gone . This is where you will have to gain there trust keep puting it out its going to take a long time for them to trust us .

Pretty good height, looks like it gives you a good view of the surrounding terrain too. Can't wait to just walk that area, from the topos and aerials of that area, I think it is a great area you got for them to hole up in.

We've put out pinwheels before, but just one or two at a time while walking through the woods, nothing like we did this time. We put them basically in a triangle of about 75 to 100 feet distance, but at angles that you couldn't see but one from any direction. FIgured if a person walked up on one, they wouldn't see the others. Our conversation about them did make me want to use them more though, so feel good about yourself Driver, you helped point me in the right direction. :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

Looks like I may need to get some of those cuddebacks myself, just have to recover from Christmas. :icon_bang: Got too many grandkids had to buy presents for. (But they had a great Christmas)

That is good to hear darkwing,
We placed the pinwheels in a large circle around our campsite. a few were taken by morning with activity heard around us. Glow sticks also. No, i did not have a lid on this time. I already know they are there, just trying to get a picture now.
driveroperator

I think this is cool.

But, what needs to happen is that a photo should be taken of the peanut butter before being placed out there. I hope one of your helpers didn't get hungry on the way out and just take a gob of PB out of there while noone was looking! :happy:

Also, try a control PB that is hanging outside for the same amount of time. if nothing happens to that one during freezing and drying out, then your 'print' is scientifically good. But without knowing what happens to peanut butter when frozen, thawed, dryed etc... you know, just have a control test. It would be more scientific and stuff.

Was the lid on the peanut butter screwed on tight, or was it left loose? It would've made more sense to leave it loose so the smell of the peanut butter would escape from the jar. If the lid was left screwed on tight, then what was the purpose of placing the peanut butter there in the first place?

To me, this looks like a tongue print in the top of the peanut butter. It also appears that the top surface of the peanut butter had dried-out from exposure to air. Something sticking it's tongue down into the surface of the semi-hardened peanut butter would've caused this "dermal" effect as the force of the tongue going down into the peanut butter would've caused wrinkles to form across the semi-hardened surface.

Raccoon would be my guess as to the most logical suspect here.

Click to view attachment

http://www.vandykestaxidermy.com/product/01512821

Good morning Drew....

I've been in the field with Dark Wing and Drive Operator...both are working diligently at great personal expense to verify the "Big Folks". I assure you I did not sample the peanut butter at the time of purchase or when Randy set the camera traps and bait...the bait was secured by heavy twine about 8 feet off the ground and only accessible from below which rules out raccoons and possums, the drop off in the foreground is closer to a 100 feet in my estimation. There is an interesting game trail adjacent to the PB bait station which had an weathered partial footprint about twice the width of my tennis shoe and perhaps a inch deep in the rocky soil. I should have taken photos however the landowner is very sensitive to strangers and I had assured him I would only observe.

I left a new Sony digital recorder identical to the one recommended by Autumn Williams in her recent DVD, with the landowner with the hope he will record the frequent vocalizations they purport to hear....which may provide us a reference recording for analysis.

Seems strange a critter would sample the PB and not consume it at both research sites...perhaps they have an aversion to processed foods. These research areas are approximately 75 miles apart as the crow flies.

Congratulations to Darren and Randy...independent researchers...I'm proud to have accompanied in the field, I have learned a great deal from both...and am much obliged....JMHO

live and let live....No bucks...No bigfoot

Steve Summar, Rocky and Sheba

Thank you for answering my question Darkwing. I have to wonder if Volsquatch is correct. I have seen and heard amazing stories about what racoons can do. I am also intrigued by what appears to me, to be a depression of a tooth?

I could be wrong, I am by no means an expert with animals or their teeth. :laugh:

Only accessible from below which rules out raccoons and possums? Last time I checked, both animals can climb trees...

I understand that you didn't shove your thumb in the PB, it was sattire, strictly to point out the benefits of photographing the PB before and then after. I didn't even know he had a crew. So I certainly wasn't trying to point out anyone. simply an example.

Vol, it was put out there without ever cracking the lid open. With the fruit (Apples and oranges) placed at about ten feet away on the ground, I had hoped that curiousity would have kicked in and they messed with the jar. I also taped a glow bracelet to it, to bring attention to it at night, although it would only have lasted a few days. I had heard about other researchers putting the peanut butter out there with the lids on, and that they had success with something taking the lid off and eating the peanut butter.

While there is a strong possibility that a human may have done this, it still makes you wonder why they didn't just untie the twine and drop the jar down to where they could have got it. Instead, the twine is frayed up where it pulled apart (over 9 feet high).

Also, it was something that was obviously out of place in the woods, hanging from a tree, that would have attracted attention, and most animals' sense of smell is good enough to smell what is in a jar, lid closed or not.

Anyway, Vol, racoons are a possibility, since they get pretty big out in the deep woods, but they more than likely would have eaten the peanut butter instead of just leaving it like this. Another thing that pops into mind, it had been out there long enough, why didn't possums, coyotes or other racoons try to eat on it after it was opened? Lot of questions here, but I have no answers. :icon_bang: :icon_bang:

Will hopefully get answers when we get some trailcams in the area. Looking at the end of this month, setting four up for several days there. Thanks for the input though Vol.

Thanks for your comments Ole Bub, hope all is well at your end.
I see that darkwings peanut butter was against the tree while hanging. My jar was hung upside down with a screw through the plastic jar to tie the twine to. Hanging about 7 ft off the ground away from the tree trunk area,hanging upside down, the lid was off the jar, Other times in the past, I have drilled holes in the lids to let smell out and no access without unscrewing the lids. Man....I have done so many different things over the years, I even have a hard time remembering it all. I started doing this never realizing I would be sharing inffo with others. But I am still as facinated now as when I first started. Never enough time or money to do it justice.IMHO
Also, my camera is placed where a neighbor fishing in the strip pit yelled at what he thought was a trespasser, only to have it squat down at the top of the cliff looking down at him and grunt, before moving on.
driveroperator

Interesting. How then did seal under the lid come off? Were there remnants of this inner freshness seal laying around the area?

The top of the peanut butter has obviously been exposed to air for some period of time before the impression was made, as cracks can be seen in the surface where the somewhat dried-out surface was disturbed. One possibility is that the jar was pulled down and the lid worked off days before you arrived, allowing the peanut butter to dry out before something stuck it's tongue down in it. But, since you say the jar was put out there without ever cracking the lid open, that still leaves the question of what happened to the inner seal. Now if you had opened the peanut butter and removed the seal before placing it up in the tree, then I could see how air would've automatically been able to get to the contents inside, even if the lid was put back on.

I used to have a pet raccoon, and if memory serves, they are sloppy eaters. Would a raccoon
quit eating after one poke? Mine would have had a field day with it.

Not saying it was or wasn't a raccoon, but is that impression consistent with how a raccoon would eat peanut butter out of a jar?

Vol,
Neither the lid or seal was anywhere to be found, I searched a diameter area of about 100 feet to the best of my ability. Lot of briar bushes and stuff. But no sign of either.

There's something in one picture I'm curious to identify - is it an oil drum?



I left the arrow in so it's easier to locate on the original picture (plus it's pointing to it).

I'm not sure there was only one poke. In this picture, besides the main impression, it looks like there's been some licking going on other parts of the surface of the peanut butter. The one large impression looks like it started out as a deep lick and then the critter concentrated it's tongue at the deepest part of the impression(near the edge of the opening) and licked several times more.

Click to view attachment

Ever fed a dog peanut butter? One bite and they lick the air for several minutes trying to get it out of the roof of their mouths. Could it have been the critter got tired of all the peanut butter getting jammed up in the roof of it's mouth and moved on? That, or the critter got scared by something and had to move on. There could be many factors at work here.

Upon further thought, there could have been more than one critter licking in this jar. The jar could have been pulled down by a pesky raccoon(I can just see a raccoon falling out of the tree with the jar after the string broke), then after the lid and seal were worked off, a couple of different critters might have gotten a few licks in.

After looking at the picture closer, here is my scenario... a bigfoot unscrewed the lid and while trying to figure out what the skin on top was, he tried poking a finger in through the skin. just like skinning a raccoon. His finger busts through and leaves the impression you see while the bigfoot is more interested in the plastic skin stuck to his finger with peanut butter glue.haha (i mean, in their world, everything taste better once you get that pesky skin off)

This area straddles a high-voltage powerline right of way, with a little used access trail that goes about 5 miles. That barrel could be left over from the construction of the right of way. Will check it out when I go back out there.

Nice scenario, but those freshness seals are pretty thick. If you were to shove your finger through one, I bet your finger would go much further into the peanut butter than you might think. The force you used to break through that seal would create quite a bit of momentum...

While some may think our big hairy friend is very smart - I dont think he would be thinking "hey, I have to becareful how hard I poke this seal, cause if I push too hard, my finger will be shoved into the center of this peanut butter jar".

JMO

Ah but..... we are relating how WE would pop through the skin with our puny, weak human bodies... their strength of grip, fingers and any other muscle would blow our minds.

No worries - an oil drum/barrel was all I could think of when I zoomed it up.
Whoops - Edited to edit out some cr*p I left in :laugh: .

I'm not saying this isn't worthy of discussion... But I will not entertain the idea that a Bigfoot would think through the consequences before shoving his finger right through that seal. You also seem to assume if the animal is shoving his finger through the jar, it would have presence of mind to just simply stop the momentum once reaching the peanut butter - do animals worry about getting messy when eating?

IF a Bigfoot did what you say, I think first you have to rule out all other possible factors first. I would like to remind you that yes, this unknown animal we all seek is said to be very strong - so, why do you think his momentum in trying to push through this seal would be any less?

I'm absolutely not saying you should stop this experiment, I think its interesting.. But, jumping to the conclusion it is in fact a Bigfoot is way to premature for me.

JMO

I am only saying.. Yours and my only experience with poking through a peanut butter skin was our own experience. a bigfoots hand would totally encompase the whole jar an give him something to brace against so all that momentum would affect him diferently. If these animals skin other animals on a regular basis, their strength in this arena would be like us pushing our finger through tissue paper..... tissue paper would not give me a momentum problem, how about you. Its just my opinion, but their strength lets them relate on a whole diferent level than us.
I can't agree that a bigfoot would or would not thrust his finger to the bottom of the jar just because that may or may not be how WE would do it.JMHO besides, i am just saying it's a posibility it poked through the plastic skin.just how it appears to me.(big hole with finger sweep coming from the hole) at least its feasable. plus, clearly the peanut butter did not stop the momentum, that is why we are talking about the finger hole and sweep. we are just disagreeing on the depth we think a bigfoot would jam his digit.

I think "bigfoot" should be waaaaaayyy down the list of possible suspects for this. I also don't think there's enough evidence to make the leap to "bigfoot activity" being a possible answer. If I had to choose between an heretofore undiscovered, undocumented and uncatalogued bipedal North Amercian Primate or simply a raccoon(or some other known forest critter), I'm going with the latter until WAY more convincing evidence comes forth.

Lets see... Darkwing has witnessed a bigfoot in his area.... I have witnessed one as well as the land owner and neighbors in my area. we have some photographs and all kinds of footprints and cattle being predated on in the area. ( i have talked to a neighbor who had a dead steer 10 feet up in a tree.) so I don't think saying a bigfoot is waaaaaaay down the list. at least not here.jmho I mean this IS a BIGFOOT FORUM isn't it? I could write a book with all that has happened here. deers swiped from hunters, screams, gifts left, rocks and sticks thrown. rock beatings, wood knockings, animal kills. cow kills with lip skin pulled back over their head with hind quarters missing. yeah I would say in my case raccoon was waaaaaay down the list or any other Forest critter. I just wish i never had to go back home!LoL One hunter saw one a couple years back and called it a werewolf,has not returned to hunt again.A deer hunter this year field dressed a deer and came up to the house to get the mule to pick it up, was only gone for a few minutes... came back and the deer was gone. at least 10 or 15 minutes from a hunters access road, no tire marks no drag marks and no deer anywhere. I would most assuredly rule out raccoon, given the area's history.So lets talk about why this is a bigfoot rather than a raccoon or teenager. We know all the things it could be if you want it to be, but lets try to find out more of the bigfoot's behavior.( I have seen one from 12 feet away, so i am way beyond needing convincing)

You could be right, I have no idea. But, considering the size of one of these "finger pokes" - I highly doubt a hole hand would fit in the top of that jar.. You do bring up a good point. If you put a jar of peanut butter in with a gorilla how would the gorilla attempt to eat the peanut butter (or even open the jar).

I would also point out, that while yours seems to have the appearance you refer to as a "poke", I do not think Darkwing's does. We all have different takes on things - the idea is to discuss the different opinions and see what makes more sense. I dont mind you arguing the pro side in this, and I hope you don't mind my arguing the con side, as both sides are valid when assessing potential evidence.

I think so far, there are very good points from all who have contributed. My peanut butter had no lid, as i hung it upside down and open, that is why if something could reach it, why only poke it? Darkwings finger plunge(if that is what did it) looks like a possible breaking through the plastic skin. It only fits for me with the absense of the plastic skin as well as the lid. the only reason i would think an average critter would take it, would be if it was smeared with peanut butter, But since the skin was over the peanut butter to keep the lid clean AND, the peanut butter wasn't too violated. I can only guess 1. the animal tried the peanut butter and did not like it and 2. decided for what ever reason the lid would be good to have. I have a question, other than crows taking objects that interest them, do other animals regularly take things that are not food or nest related? ( i am assuming the lid had no peanut butter on it when taken)

Or 3. You have a racoon who tried to investigate your peanut butter and is now running around the woods with a snoot full of peanut butter :laugh:


oohhh come on, that was funny !!!! You gotta laugh.

Try this with the peanut butter. Take the lid off the jar and screw it (the lid) to the tree with the threads pointing out. Do this way up in the tree. Now, screw the jar to the lid making sure it's screwed on really tight. You might even try some super glue on the jar threads so Mr. Raccoon can't open it. If Mr. B wants the pb, he'll either unscrew the jar from the lid or will break it off the tree.


I'm just full of good ideas. :new_weirdsmiley:





:laugh:

Thats not a half bad idea JayleeD. I would also rake the ground surrounding the tree really good too - maybe you could get some tracks.

I think when trailcams are placed within the vicinity, we'll ( or Darkwing) will have the answer to the racoon theory. This experiment needs to be replicated. The risk is you could scare off any bf, but we can rule out racoon or the possiblity that the jar fell only due to a snap of the string.