I know this will open a can of worms so let the games begin.

If what I have is authentic its discovery will predate the Patterson film by 35 years and could be as much as several hundred years old. I am more than happy to share the digital pictures I took of it this weekend.

I just came into possession of a stone artifact that has yet to be authenticated. It has been in a friends family possession since it was found in 1932. My friends father at the age of 9 found it in New Paltz, NY.

It is a stone carving; its size is about the size of the round watermellons you see at grocery stores, its weight is a little less than 30lbs. It is a carving of the head of an ape like creature.


This being my first post I am unable to post the pictures on this site unless the moderators allow that access.

If there are any experts that can date and authenticate this artifact I am more than happy to provide access to it for review.

Chisholm

Hang tight. Hopefully a mod will see your post and give you advice. Welcome to the forum. I'd love to see the photos.

Dan



[Edited to remove unnecessary quote of previous post -Vol]

Chisholm, I've moved your post into this thread. An Administrator will have to move you into the regular members category before you can post a picture on the forum, but you might have the option of linking to your photos if they're hosted somewhere else.

If you wanted to forward the photos to me I'd be happy to host and cross post them here for you. Just let me know if I can be of assistance.

I really want to see this.

How does one determine if it's an ape head or a charicature of a human?

chisholm

Looking forward to see your pics.

There was a thread in the past about a funny looking rock. Have you had a chance to look at it? Any similarity?

Funny shaped rock thread

Seen this statue... have pictures of it. Yes it is interesting but relavance is unknown. Got a hold of pictures when I worked on the NY video.

BitterMonk,

Send me your email and I will forward the pics to you.

I got your email and replied. Just standing by waiting on the pics now.

Bitter Monk,

The pictures are in your in-box

I can't wait...

You may find yourself pleasantly surprised when the pics are up. The stone has been used as a doorstop in Wisconson for almost 50 years. To my knowledge only one suposed Bigfoot researcher has even looked at it and wanted to take it for further examination, he was, I think, wisely turned down.

Correction it was Minnesota and the researcher was from Arizona.

I know Curt and I don't think it was wise to turn him down. I have about 25 pictures of the small red head. It is interesting... but turning down someone of Curt's caliber makes me wonder. If anybody could get to the bottom of what it is, where it came from... it would be him.

I thought it was his brother who looked at it? Bro is the archaeologist...

Interesting! Can't wait to see them.

In case any of you are not aware, there is precedent for this kind of thing.

Carved Stone Heads of the Columbia River Gorge

Smitty

Yeah I know... Maybe he did but I could swear it was Curt that contacted me... hmmm.

Maybe they are interchangeable!!! I could swear though that the bro showed me the photos and I was in complete agreement with his interpretation. Hummm....

They're playing tricks on us... damn crows.

I replied to your email. Still have not received the images. Check your inbox for my reply. You may want to separate the attachments to speed up delivery.

Ok resent in three seperate emails. Let me know if you have them

Pictures came through some time last night. I've reduced them down to make them a little easier to view here.

Something to give a sense of scale would be nice ..

It is undoubtedly interesting. I never got to ask what the bottom of the stone head looks like? There isn't a hole there is there?

Looks pretty human until you get to the upper lip and the top of the head........oh, and the ear.

There are reports of long hair on the head, are there not? Very interesting.

wow, lots of carved hair, once painted with lighter colored face, sagital crest, brow ridge, apelike face, protruding jaw, large lips

the lowland gorilla was discovered in 1902, what is the history of this?

Correction: The MOUNTAIN gorilla was "discovered" (i.e. first killed by white hunters) in 1902. Western lowland gorillas were known fron physical specimens at least as early as 1847 though the first legit account may date all the way back to 500 BC.

PS- I see no indication of a sagittal crest...though one arguably isn't obvious on a fully fleshed head.

I fear that will be Sasquatch's epitaph.

Yes, interesting for sure. I'd like to see the bottom as well. As soon as I viewed the pics, my first thoughts were maybe carved stalagmite. Notice the outer "layer" of material present in some places on the top and sides. I've noticed that when broken off, some stalagmites and stalactites will have a hole in the middle and rings(similar to those of a tree) throughout their composition. This artifact could have started out as a natural formation that had the general shape of a head and face, and then carved by a human hand into what we see today. IMO, this could simply be someone's attempt at carving a human face around the natural features of an odd formation. Can a stalagmite be carved?

Stalagmite:

Click to view attachment

Stalagmite which was found with part of a fossilized sloth femur attached, presented for shape purposes only(disregard narrative notes, those aren't mine). Note the odd shape:

Click to view attachment

Comparison:

Click to view attachment

Yes, thank you. Ever since I posted those photos I've been trying to remember what type of rock it was that the carving reminded me off, and all I could come up with for some reason was a mental block of the Chakra© stones from "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom".

Kind of my first impression also BM. Interesting pictures. I wonder what the date of the artifact would be?

I would say out of the pics posted this is the bottom....chisholm correct me if I'm wrong.

Click to view attachment

Based on the lines that are visible and the apparent flatness of the bottom I'd wager that photo is of the top.

No that is the top of the head....... glad to see you finally got the pics.... I can in the future get better pics. The idea behind sharing this was to find an expert to assist with authenticating this and aging it if possible.

The face may represent a bigfoot. Or it may be a natural artifact. Or a carved feature. But it sure looks like it confirms the existence of ET, from the movie of the same name.

Really I do not know what to make if this. More on the background of this would be of help. And an examination of a proper geologist would be a good idea also. Along with sculpture artists. Hairy Man's comments on if this could be N.A. art would also be usefull. Interesting, but I would like to find out more before making any judgement.

Just sent you a pic of the base of the stone. The relic is completely solid and extremely heavy for its size.

Bottom's up.

Don't take the color of the head into account. When William Bayer found this stone at the age of nine it was found at a depth of around 4'. His uncle took the stone and painted it brown and used it as a door stop. William retrieved it after his death and passed it to his son upon his death. Because of our friendship and my interest in such things William's son sent it to me before he moved permantly overseas.

Thank you for helping Chisholm post the pictures, BM. This is a very interesting exercise. I want to also thank Chisholm for bringing this here for us to mull over.

When I spoke of a hole and rings earlier, I was actually thinking about a calcite stalagmite(it's been quite a few years since I've done any spelunking, but I used to go quite often). I just went into the rock basket and checked out a few specimens. I've given away most of my larger specimens, but I did have one small calcite stalagmite. As soon as I saw it, I knew that is what I was thinking about earlier, but I forgot calcite stalagmites are made up of a bunch of tiny, glistening crystals. I also had one very small dense stalagmite covered in flowstone. It still had a tiny hole in the bottom, but it was a little closer to what I was thinking about with the carved head.

Thanks for explaining the color, Chisholm. I was just about to ask about the brown coating that was evident in the pic of the bottom. Here is an example showing a closer match to the head and the color of the natural stone underneath:

Click to view attachment

I could swear that I've seen broken stalagmites that look extremely close to what we're seeing with the bottom of the carved head. This may be a good excuse to go spelunking this weekend.

I've also found a reference to Mayan carved stalagmites found in caves hidden deep within the jungles of Belize.

Ouch...note to self : use your prescription glasses before you post an opinion on something or you'll come off as Mr. Magoo.

This is very interesting. The rock does look like stalagmite, but according to my geology book, calcite doesn't carve too well (but a geologist would need to verify the material type...it could be a different stone type).

It is very difficult to determine, but it does appear to be ape-like to me. The carving does share elements of other known Native American carvings, masks, and totem poles, such as the ape-like lip, the deep set eyes, lack of a chin, very flat nose, nose high on the face, ear visible through the hair, and long hair. The smile is a bit odd, but does remind me of several masks showing either an creepy cooked smile or the teeth of the "Hairy Man".

I do not believe it is a carving of a human face but that is based mostly on my limited knowledge of carving styles from the late 1800s/early 1900s (and assuming the carver is of European decent). If it is a human woman, it is very unusual for carvings of women, when her hair is represented as down, to show her ear; if it is a human man, it is even MORE unusual for men to be represented with long hair. Of course, it could just be something someone carved one day out of fun without regard to common practices of the day. What the rock is will tell us more.

What I can't tell you:
--Age of the carving (we archaeologists can't date rocks, although we do date flakes, and sometimes marry them);
--What ethic group carved it (although I would go out onto a slim limb by stating that if it is an ape face, NA would be responsible and if it's human, white folk are).

What more info is needed:
--Where exactly did it come from? Are there known archaeological sites in the area? When it was said that it was found at 4 feet, do you mean depth in the ground? So it was buried? Buried where?
--What is the rock? If it is soft and easy to carve, that's one thing...if hard then it's another.

(Since Chisholm doesn't know me from Adam, I guess I should mention that I am a professional archaeologist/anthropologist!)

:icon_really_happy_guy: :icon_really_happy_guy: :icon_really_happy_guy:

Harry Man,

The stone came from New Palz in Ulster County NY. It was found while digging a grave. One of the noteable facts of the area that I have found so far is of stone mining, much of its historic building are still standing and made of stone from the area. When we finally get this authenticated my impression it will be of the same rock. The stone seems to be very hard in nature and is extremely dense at close to 30lbs and around 12" tall, not made any measurements yet.

The indians of the area were wiped out by the Dutch in the 1640s after the fur trade was going bad. Here are several articles I have found of the area:http://www.hopefarm.com/ulsterny.htm and
http://www.hopefarm.com/ebooks1.htm

If anyone knows where or who can assist with authentification just let me know and I will post the results when there done.

Correction of tpye O New Paltz and the area acording to my reading is loaded with archeology sites.

Take it for what it is worth folks. I was told one more thing that I would like to add that was passed on to me from the last owner. When the researcher from AZ look at this stone he made mention that there were several styles of carving that he noted and it indicated to him that it took a long time maybe generations to do the work on this head. He estimated it to be several hundred years old but was only a guess. Nothing since was done.

Chisholm- very interesting potential rock carving. If it's determined to be quite dated and the work of Native Americans, I'd say it looks better than at least half of the Columbia River carvings, in my opinion. To be honest from a bird's eye-view the proportion of facial characteristics look extremely ape-like, with a slight protrusion of the lower face. Looks very similiar to what many witnesses I've talked to have reported seeing. On a sidenote, I believe the University there in New Paltz has an Anthropology department that even has a class on exploring the unknown (bigfoot, loch ness etc...). My guess is that for there to be a class regarding this material, there vary well may be an interested, objective and reputable professor who can open a few doors for you and get this artifact checked out. Also assuming that you're from there, I know you said that's where the actual artifact was found.

For reference here is Roderick Sprague's excellent article on the stone heads from the Columbia River.

I could authentic it, but I would have to view it in person. I'm sure you'd rather not place the head in the mail!

What I would recommend is to go to your local university and talk with the archaeologist on staff. They could tell you more, as well as you could hand carry the artifact in and retain physical custody (but please know we arch types are very trustworthy folks!). If you are located in NY near the discovery, it will be even more beneficial as they would be very familiar with other art types in the area.

If you have any trouble locating someone, please let me know. I have a large network of archaeologists that could help. If this is a carving by Native Americans, it would be very important, as we have no artifacts from the eastern U.S.

Bartlojays,

Have called the Anthro dept. and was referred to a Joe Diamond who is the local expert. No response as of yet. I will just continue to make contact.

Am not from the area but it would not be inflexible to travel. I am closer to the DC area at the moment if you know of an expert closer.