I was carried to another thread while following a post on Green not seeing dermal ridges. I'll post it here too (I'm spamming the board).

This is what he said:

"It is on a 13" track from Onion Mountain that Krantz, Meldrum and Chilcutt have identified dermals. The track on which I noted a straight pattern that I likened to wood grain was a 15" track on Blue Creek Mountain road and that is indeed an observation worth thinking about, but I was referring only to the fact that there appeared to be tiny lines running lengthwise along the foot. Carved wooden feet would be no more likely to show an impression of fine wood grain than any other object made of such wood. As a rule wood grain can be seen but not felt. That same track, by the way, caused the tracking dog to react as if it had been subjected to a sudden shock--limbs abruptly stiffened and hair on the back standing upright--a reaction it showed no sign of the following morning."

Very nice, thank you for posting this LAL.

Tiny lines running lengthwise like the ones seen in these feet ? ( more apparent on the right )

What tiny lines? If you are talking about the dislodged wood sliver or split, it doesn't look like it is on the side of the foot... and surely doesn't look like anything having to do with dermal discussions. I have all of those pictures and none show the sides of the contraptions unfortunately.

For those interested if you are caught removing more than a spoonful of Volcanic Ash from within the Gifford Pinchot National Forest.

You will be charged with: 36CFR 261.9B This is a Federal Statute.

Im pretty darn sure this would include shipping and transportation by vehicle as well.

And the winner is !!!

I was wondering who would be the first to ask if I was referring to the obvious crack ...


Are you saying you really can't see the lengthwise grain pattern ( tiny lines ) on these wooden feet ?


Anyone else ?

As I said before... I have the original pictures of these and what you claim to be seeing isn't really there. There is some chipping though... no grain.

Then I'm sure you could put this to rest by showing us just a small high res segment from the original ...

Really, I don't understand why I see a lengthwise grain pattern, that you say is not there...

Are you saying that is the only source for volcanic ash in NA ?

Or that it is not legal to obtain it from anywhere else ?

Or you could contact the photographer and purchase your own legal copies... and check out your own responces concerning scans, captures and such and how artifacts can creep in.

Well, to be perfectly honest SG - Mt. St. Helens is a, well "special" kind of Volcano- its due to the explosive nature of this volcano because of the amount of a specific gas it emits - and that's the kind of ash Tube is using. I thought we were going to stay as true to the work as possible?

Truth of the matter is - not all Volcanic Ash is identical and you cannot simply say because you have Volcanic Ash - it will have the same chemical structure and make up as Mt. St. Helens. (I got that from the USGS, read their website sometime - its very interesting, I never knew so much about Volcanos)

I was asked to reference my opinion - and I did.

I understand.. Thanks...

....I guess I missed something...but can someone give me a link where I can read about the volcanic ash restriction?

To find this specific citation - you have to read the entire law that was enacted (and its really not exciting - lmao). It was written into a subsection of the law. I called Gifford Pinchot this afternoon when I found it - and they verified this is a real law, and they will and do enforce it.

Basically this law was created to protect the area, as they feel leaving this ash within the forest is important to the regrowth. I had only heard from pottery stores that this law was there - it took a lot of digging to actually find it. But it is for real.

But this is not strictly about the ash fall - it extends to the plants etc. I was told today, they do enforce the "more than a spoonful" rule - and that goes for everything.

I found this by doing a search at work. I will search the net for you scotto - and see what I can find

Here ya go scotto Geesh wish I had found this earlier. Refer specifically to subsection (. That section is what specifically applies here. Its kinda dull reading. When I spoke to the people at Gifford Pinchot today - and initally asked the question - the response was "Ohhh yes, that is a real law" I asked if that is enforced, and they said emphatically it is, there was no hesitation.

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/document...t261.html#261.9

§261.1b Penalty.

Any violation of the prohibitions of this part (261) shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than six months or both pursuant to title 16 U.S.C., section 551, unless otherwise provided.

[46 FR 33519, June 30, 1981]


§261.9 Property.

The following are prohibited:

(a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States.

( Removing any natural feature or other property of the United States.

© Damaging any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sentitive, rare, or unique species.

(d) Removing any plant that is classified as a threatened, endangered, sentitive, rare, or unique species.

(e) Entering any building, structure, or enclosed area owned or controlled by the United States when such building, structure, or enclosed area is not open to the public.

(f) Using any pesticide except for personal use as an insect repellent or as provided by special-use authorization for other minor uses.

(g) Digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, or property.

(h) Removing any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resource, structure, site, artifact, property.

(i) Excavating, damaging, or removing any vertebrate fossil or removing any paleontological resource for commercial purposes without a special use authorization.

(j) Excavating, damaging, or removing any cave resource from a cave without a special use authorization, or removing any cave resource for commercial purposes.

[46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981, as amended at 49 FR 25450, June 21, 1984; 51 FR 30356, Aug. 26, 1986; 59 FR 31152, June 17, 1994]
§261.10 Occupancy and use.

The following are prohibited:

(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communication equipment, or other improvement on National Forest system land or facilities without a special-use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan.

( Taking possession of, occupying, or otherwise using National Forest System lands for residential purposes without a special-use authorization, or as otherwise authorized by Federal law or regulation.

© Selling or offering for sale any merchandise or conducting any kind of work activity or service unless authorized by Federal law, regulation, or special-use authorization.

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or

(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.

(3) Into or within any cave.

(e) Abandoning any personal property.

(f) Placing a vehicle or other object in such a manner that it is an impediment or hazard to the safety or convenience of any person.

(g) Commercial distribution of printed material without a special use authorization.

(h) When commercially distributing printed material, delaying, halting, or preventing administrative use of an area by the Forest Service or other scheduled or existing uses or activities on National Forest System lands; misrepresenting the purposes or affiliations of those selling or distributing the material; or misrepresenting the availability of the material without cost.

(i) Operating or using in or near a campsite, developed recreation site, or over an adjacent body of water without a permit, any device which produces noise, such as a radio, television, musical instrument, motor or engine in such a manner and at such a time so as to unreasonably disturb any person.

(j) Operating or using a public address system, whether fixed, portable or vehicle mounted, in or near a campsite or developed recreation site or over an adjacent body of water without a special-use authorization.

(k) Use or occupancy of National Forest System land or facilities without special-use authorization when such authorization is required.

(l) Violating any term or condition of a special-use authorization, contract or approved operating plan.

(m) Failing to stop a vehicle when directed to do so by a Forest Officer.

(n) Failing to pay any special use fee or other charges as required.

(o) Discharging or igniting a firecracker, rocket or other firework, or explosive into or within any cave.

[42 FR 2957, Jan. 14, 1977, as amended at 46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981; 49 FR 25450, June 21, 1984; 53 FR 16550, May 10, 1988; 59 FR 31152, June 17, 1994; 60 FR 45295, Aug. 30, 1995; 66 FR 3218, Jan. 12, 2001]

This store claims to sell and ship volcanic ash from the Mt. Saint Helens eruption.

SPS.....Raw Materials page.....scroll down to volcanic ash.

Volcanic Ash, Mt. Saint Helens
Volcanic ash from the Mount Saint Helens eruption.
Sized and screened.

Hmm...very interesting find, Ty. I wonder if they're getting the ash from somewhere outside of the GPNF? I'm sure ash was thrown many miles away when the mountain erupted in 1980. Surely it didn't all stay within the GPNF?

Anyway, this proves there is at least one supplier which claims to sell volcanic ash from Mt. St. Helens.

From what I can gather doing my own quick googling investigation, the "sized and screened" reference basically means that the material has been sorted for quality before shipment, and does not refer to a potential limitation on the amount which is buyable or shippable(just thought I'd get that out of the way before it became a mini-issue).

After a more in-depth review of the above-cited HTML document which Melissa has provided, I've noticed an area which may be more applicable to the question at hand. Specifically subsection 261.6 "Timber and other forest products", focusing primarily on section (h):


(emphasis mine)

Notice in section (h) it clearly states "or other forest product".

I'm sure there are rules in place that cover the illegal removal of volcanic ash from the National Forest, and I'm sure that if called-up and asked about it, they would be very happy to lay out those rules no uncertain terms......but what about a special-use authorization granted to a private party, which would cover the purchase of a quantity of volcanic ash, located in a section of the forest in which it's removal would be considered "low impact" upon the surrounding environment?

Sounds like another question needing to be posed to "they" at Gifford Pinchot.

Ok guys - again. I did call and speak with the people at GPNF. If you remove more than a spoonful of Volcanic Ash from this area - and your caught, you will be fined.

Vols - the citation I quoted is the ordinance you will be fined with should you decide to break this law. The nice folks at GPNF confirmed that for me as well. There is no debate on this issue. If you dont believe me, call the headquarters. They did tell me, there are people who did collect the ash - and sell it from their homes, but this ash was not in the area covered by their jurisdiction. And, the state had big issues over scams in this regard. I do not know about a "special use permit" and that is something I should have asked about - I was more interested in getting tube his "source". I would think however - if any pottery store had a "special use permit" it would have been these larger chain pottery stores I called, and they emphatically denied they had any Mt. St. Helens ash - or had any access to it.

Thank you Ty2. I have been on that website, back when all this first started and they did not have Volcanic Ash listed then and what they did have was pumice, when I called them they said it was not nearly as fine as Volcanic Ash. Pumice can be fine and it can come very corse. I will call them today, and see under what conditions they collected this ash, and how long its been in storage, and how often they test it to be sure the chemical composition has remained the same.

I just checked another source for the composition of the ash being sold at this store - seems there is an issue I must discuss with them as well. They listed what is in their Mt. St. Helens Ash as:

Volcanic Ash (Pumice) SiO2Al2O3.

Another source lists says the chemical structure is this:

Mt. St. Helens Ash

Chemistry
CaO 6.750
K2O 0.366
MgO 6.100
Na2O 3.850
TiO2 0.310
Al2O3 22.963
SiO2 51.554
Fe2O3 6.831
MnO 0.275

Volatiles
LOI 1.000

*source: U.S. Dept of Geological Survey (USGS)*

Actually, your not supposed to remove anything from a NF without a permit, that includes rocks and fauna, it is usually not difficult to get a permit.

You could submit a request for a permit to remove Volcanic Ash for educational purposes such as analysis of "animal" tracks and determining flaws caused by VA in specific types of casting materials..... I'm sure you get the picture. You won't know until you try. Melissa, did you explain to GPNF what you were trying to accomplish?

Yes, Ash fell as far as Spokane, over the years it's gone thru cleanup and weather.

Thank you NWSquatcher. I did tell them I was involved with casting experiments, as it related to Volcanic Ash - and they were not amused. I had to convince them I had not removed any ash from this area. I was put through 20 questions, before I was given the information I requested. The first woman I spoke to, was absolutely not amused that I even had to ask the question.. In order to get the information, I felt like I needed to assure them I would not be removing anything from the area, in fact they asked me more than once where I was calling from (Im sure to see if I changed my story on the state I was in).

I did not ask about a special use permit, I didnt think I would get very far. I will call them back though on Monday and ask this specific question. Although they seem to not be at all amused at the thought of someone carting out Volcanic Ash from this area. :laugh:

NWSquatcher - do you know how often Mt. St. Helens spits out new Ash?

I'm sure that's true....it's part of a common sense law to prevent private citizens from hauling away the contents of a National forest one pickup load at a time. :laugh:
Nobody's disputing you made that call.



By posting this link I was just reiterating Tube's claim that one can buy and have volcanic ash shipped and the above statement you made is not entirely correct.

Melissa-

Fifty to one hundred miles NE of the mountain is where the majority of the ash is. There is also a considerable amount of private timberland where one could scoop it up. There will probably be a layer of organic matter and/or dirt on top, just dig under that and you'll have pure ash. Also the closer you get to the Mt. the coarser the ash is. As far as the Mt. spitting out new ash try the Brutus Remote Cam this should give you a good example. Of course there is always the USGS.

MANGLER

Ty2 I can only tell you what I was told by suppliers in that area. I posted the specific law they were referring to as the act that makes it illegal. Now, one would assume if it is infact illegal to remove the ash from this area - it would also be illegal to ship. Your splitting hairs - and I am just trying to tell people what I was told. I can only be as factual as the information I find, and what I am told specifically.

I wont continue this argument as it has been shown to remove Ash from this area is Illegal - without some sort of special use permit, so I would argue I am absolutley correct, that is clear as day to me. Now, if I can find a supplier who has this permit, and they can infact ship it to me, then I will do so. I have no issue with this - I simply can not find a supplier yet willing to do so (or that even has pure Volcanic Ash from this Mountain).

Thank you Mangler for this information. I did have a very lengthy conversation with a Volcanologist with the USGS - and he did confirm what you are saying. But, he did also tell me once you have to dig into the soil to get to this, the likelyhood of the chemical structure being the same is very low. Volcanic Ash begins to change chemically once it hits the ground and has to "battle" the elements. I have no idea where Tube was able to obtain his ash, or under what conditions.

Edited to add - I just finished with a phone call from Seattle Pottery - they have no Mt. St. Helens Ash, what they have is pumice, which is NOT Ash. They said they are not sure where people are getting the idea they have ash - I said "From your website", she said (and I have said this a bunch of times) Pumice is not the same thing as Volcanic Ash.

But - judging from what she says is a flood of phone calls about the Volcanic Ash they have listed - Im sure many of you already know this.. :laugh:

Having lived in Yakima, Washington State (about 75-80 air miles N.W. of St. Helen's) on May 18th, 1980, I can tell you that a lot of airborne ash traveled outside of the G.P. National Forest. The City of Yakima built thier new soccer fields on an unimproved city park that was the dump for most of the 600,000 tons of ash that landed on Yakima.

However, most of the very fine, talcum powder, like ash fell within 30 to 40 miles of Mt. St. Helen's. But I am sure that some of that ash fell on private land around places like the town of Randle. It was the a mixture of fine grained, sand like, ash and powder that fell on Yakima and further to the east. In the past 26 years, that form of volvanic ash has weathered down and has worked itself into the ground around here.

So I suspect that what has been made into tourist souveniers was made from the heavier ash. And now from powder form. But that it may be difficult to find the powder in large quanities the farther you get from the base of the mountain. The more granular form would be easier to find. Assuming that the chemical compound has not broken down thru out the years. And effected its casting ability.

Melissa, really, I don't think anyone is disputing this fact...maybe you missed it where I said " I'm sure there are rules in place that cover the illegal removal of volcanic ash from the National Forest, and I'm sure that if called-up and asked about it, they would be very happy to lay out those rules no uncertain terms".



About an hour ago, I made a phone call to Seattle Pottery Supply. I asked them if they were a supplier of volcanic ash from Mt. St. Helens. The nice lady that answered the phone stated that they do, in fact, get quantities of Mt. St. Helens volcanic ash on occasion. These quantities range anywhere from a small bags to large barrels. At this time, they do not have any in their inventory, but I was told to keep checking back often because it does come in on occasion. I asked where this ash comes from, and the lady said that it comes out of Mt. St. Helens, where it falls in an area that is not located within the NF. This ash gets spewed on occasion from the mountain, whereupon they ultimately aquire it(so apparently this is not ash from the 1980 eruption). I went on to tell her that I was from Tennessee and that I was involved in a debate regarding how impressions are held in volcanic ash, and the subsquent casting of those impressions, and that I would be interested in purchasing some of the Mt. St. Helens ash in the future. I stated that I may have more questions for her in the future regarding this issue and I was sure she probably had other phone calls in the past such as this one. She said that she was unaware of anyone inquiring about Mt. St. Helens ash in that sort of way, but for me to keep checking back and feel free to call back anytime with any further questions.

Well, after about 30 minutes, I thought of another question to ask regarding pumice v/s volcanic ash. The same lady answered the phone and as soon as I told her who I was and why I was calling back, she was very short with me and immediately put me on hold. After about 15 minutes of waiting while automated frogs croaked in the background and what sounded like synthetic rainfall, another lady picked up the phone and in an irrated tone asked how she could help me. I told her that I had called earlier and asked about the Mt. St. Helens ash, and she stated that the lady who originally helped me was unavailable, and asked what I wanted to know. I told her that the other lady mentioned that they did have pumice available, and she quickly and angrily cut me off and corrected my pronunciation of pumice to "pumice" :new_rolleyes: . I said "OK, sorry", and went on to ask if she could explain to me differences between pumice and volcanic ash. She answered that she didn't have any in front of her so she couldn't tell me. I asked if pumice was more coarse than volcanic ash, and she said "yes, probably". She then asked where I was calling from and I told her Tennessee, and after several seconds of silence she simply said "Uh huhhhh...". At this point I was tired of all this condescension, so I politely thanked her for her time and she simply hung up on me.

Regardless of anything else though, if true, then there is a potential source for the aquisition of Mt. St. Helens ash.

So did I - look above.



Im not sure what your implying - I never said I wouldnt have it sent if I could find it. If a store has this Ash, and they obtained it by way of a special use permit - it may be legal to ship, I am simply saying I wont go to to jail or pay a fine for curosity.

When I called Seattle Pottery some months ago - I spoke with a gentleman, so maybe thats why the woman that helped you was unaware of my conversation with another employee of this store. I did take notes.

Im beginning to wonder what will appease. A law - is a law, there is no way around that law. Unless they collect this in an area outside of the park - or they have a special use permit to go into the park to collect ash - It is illegal to have it in your posession or to ship. Its really that simple, and Im not sure why this is turning into a debate. The woman I think we both spoke to was probably a bit concerned because this is a very sensitive issue for the people who sell this. They want it - and cant get it in its pure form. They probably also have to worry about the "Officials" checking up on them.

What I see here is the law being the issue - but I have no desire to try and change it. But, I do know where to look for them :laugh:

Ty is splitting hairs? Actually, it seems that you are, M. You're engaging in a logical fallacy here.

Just because it is illegal to cart ash out of the NF doesn't mean that it isn't available at all, and in turn doesn't automatically mean that it is illegal to ship.



I wouldn't say that you're absolutely correct. Far from it actually. Without all the facts available, then there's no way possible to say that you're "absolutely correct".



I'm not implying anything. I simply stated what was said in the phone call. Who said anything about you paying fines or going to jail??? Your entire premise surrounds the fact that, according to you, it is illegal to ship volcanic ash. It's looking more and more like this doesn't seem to be the case, and I'm not sure why you're still desperately clinging onto this idea.








She didn't sound very concerned to me, actually quite the opposite. I'd say she was just more miffed because they're getting phone calls from people wanting information that won't ultimately effect their bottom line, and who apparently don't sound as 'sophisticated'(in my case anyway) as they do up there in their great 'pottery barn' ivory tower. In other words, we're wasting their time.

I don't see this as the law being the issue. It all goes back to the fact that apparently in your eyes, since you yourself cannot get this ash to perform your own experiments with or find someone with it in their inventory or willing to ship it to you, then that somehow invalidates the work that Tube has done. IMO, that position is just so wrong on so many levels.


And with that, I'm outta here. I can already here baby Jesus starting to cry because all of these nested quotes.

The point Vol and I was trying to make is simple.

While your worrying about laws and searching for a volcanic ash supplier the fine but irritated folks at Seattle Pottery will continue to sell and ship Mount St. Helens volcanic ash (when available) to other customers across the country.



Don't slam the door my friend....cause I'm right behind you. :laugh:

From what I can tell - they are not selling any volcanic ash at this time - regardless of what they have done in the past. Can I get it now? No. That is the answer to that question.

Tube asked me to cite the law - I did - now you both have issues with that.

Not sure what either of you want - other than to make this whole thing about something its not. Which I find very disturbing. If you have issues with the law - then call the state of washington, I cant help you.

And Vols - if she wasnt irritated - why did you say "I was tired of all this condescension". Did she take your name and number to contact you if they did get it in?

And, you are very wrong Volsquatch - if it is illegal to have something in your posession - it is ILLEGAL to ship or even transport by vehicle. Are you willing to pay the fine if your wrong?? Thats something you or anyone should not have to be told. I cant even believe your making that argument.

I am very dissapointed with how this is being taken by some. Maybe its more about protecting someone else and less about the truth. I dont know. But to argue about something as easy to read as the law - is something I wont do anymore. I understand the law.

The point Im trying to make is also very simple - you simply chose to ignore it. I said OVER AND OVER AGAIN - If I can find a supplier with the permit to collect it, then that means they can ship it as well. Hell I cant even find a supplier who has it. AND NEITHER CAN EITHER OF YOU..

If the two of you want to make this about tubes work - then so be it. If anyone can get their hands on Pure Volcanic Ash - and they are willing to ship it to me, please send me a Personal message and I will get your information and I will send you the money to cover all shipping expenses. I will only pay someone who can assure me this is being gained legally - and it is pure Volcanic Ash. I will not be involved in anything that could potentially put myself or someone else at risk with the law.

Only one problem - good luck finding it.. And even if I do get "Crowley Lines" in the Volcanic Ash - it still wont make it so in the soil of Onion Mountain, at least it hasnt to this point. Hey, where did tube get his recent supply of Virgin Volcanic Ash..... Kinda makes you wonder doesnt it. Im always amazed at the questions that never get asked on this forum - and what seems to be of the most importance. Infact the nice lady at Pottery Supply told me they havent had Volcanic Ash in a long time. Wonder where Tube got his.

I wonder why no one asked tube how he came to his conclusions, by those who defend him now? It would have been nice, we may have some answers today as to how to avoid these artifacts in the field.. But, oh well, must have been good enough at the time.

I am glad some on this board are interested in this information, and how to avoid these things when they are in the field. I hold out hope. But this is really unbelieveable.

I may have missed something in all this (and there's been lots) - but if I understand what I have read correctly, doesn't simply employing a splash coat avoid the issue of risking dermal-like artifacts?

Somehow I doubt the ash is "virgin"....that's right, I said what everyone else was thinking.... :laugh:

I guess I am surprised that tube isn't using ash from the 1980 eruption. I hadn't realized it was new ash spewed from the volcano recently. It would be correct that only ash (old or new) within the FS boundaries would be illegal to collect (as is pumice, I know, I got yelled at a few trips ago for even picking some up!). However, the area is checkered with private timber land owned by Wherehouser (or however that is spelled) where it would be legal to get it (assuming of course that any new ash happened to fall on private land...and since there hasn't been a whole lot of activity recently, makes it even tougher).

However....I have a plan!

It involves you, a shovel, a bucket, some night googles, a bottle of Ripple, and a midget with an orange mohawk. You game?

Hairy Man wrote:




:laugh:

:laugh: Why not - I have tried just about everything else :laugh:



Well to date, I have neither seen in print or heard spoken by anyone who uses splash casting, that they have had any issues with these "artifacts". Thats not to say it hasnt happened or couldnt, I just dont know about it. I think though part of Tubes theory is based on pouring straight in, and since you do not do that with splash casting - that would greatly diminish that problem.

Good question.

Yes John, that's what I understand from his work and the use of a fixative or barrier spray to hold the substrate together.

I know I said that I was done, but Heyzus Kristos :doh:




Did you ask them if it was illegal to ship volcanic ash or if it was illegal to have it in their posession? If so, then what did they say? If not, then why not?




I've never had an issue with the law. I don't know why you keep insisting that I do. I've said on a couple of occasions now that I realize the laws are in effect.



Melissa, do you simply scan over what I type? I said "She didn't sound very concerned to me, actually quite the opposite. I'd say she was just more miffed because they're getting phone calls from people wanting information that won't ultimately effect their bottom line"

Where in that statement did you get that I didn't think she was irritated? And no, she hung up on me before I had a chance to say anything past "Thank you for your time....".



Are you now saying that it is illegal to simply have volcanic ash in your posession?



You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm more interested in "protecting" Tube than getting at the truth.



Are you sure about that? Doesn't seem to be the case since you can't tell us definitively whether it is illegal to ship volcanic ash or even have it in your posession.



Ty posted a link to a supplier who, on their website, claim to carry Mt. St. Helens ash. They may be out of it at the time, but THEY DO CARRY IT.



Now who's making this about Tube's work? It's really starting to sound like you're interested in seeing Tube investigated for having volcanic ash in his posession and as to where he aquired it. Is this what this is really all about?

And I see now that you admit that even if you get your hands on some volcanic ash and are successful at getting the "Crowley Lines", even then it won't be good enough. OK, we're done. Fold up the card table Mabel it's time to go home.

Bill,

When St. Helens blew in 1980, people began to collect the ash, I don't know if you remember but there was a frenzy of buyers all over the US who wanted ash. I know I had a jar of it. These pottery shops may well have ash from the orginal ash fall of 1980. I was on my to Spokane to visit my family when St. Helens blew, I got caught in the Dalles and couldn't get to Spokane, was living in Reno at that time, there were vendors even in Reno selling ash. GPNF is probably trying to prevent digging up the ground to locate ash, as there would be no ash on the ground today that you could pick up, come on, it's been 26 years, ash does not just sit there and stay in it's powder form, the pottery shops probably use it because it was almost like cement when it got wet, I know of people who used it to bond tile, has anyone verified where the pottery shops got their ash?

Melissa, St. Helens burps now and then, there would not be any significant ash fall unless you were closer to the crater which I believe is closed to the public, I haven't checked in a long time. It sounds like GPNF has an attitude problem, wonder why? I can't believe they get many inquiries about ash and the removal of ash..... Keep up the good work Melissa, you are doing a great job of covering all the bases. :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

I'd also like to know where tube got his ash, unless he had saved some from the 1980 eruption or he bought it from someone else that did.

Im done repeating myself Vols. I think you simply scan what I read. I can not be any clearer than I have been.

This is not rocket science and I didnt explain it in a way in which it sounded that way either. Im done with this discussion. Tube made this an issue - not I, guess he shouldnt have asked me to cite the law.

Thank you. Personally I would love to get my hands on some of this Ash, but so would many people who like Volcanic Ash for pottery too :laugh:

Well, the people I spoke with, I cant say they had attitude - they are just very concerned about the forest they have to maintain.. I can respect that. I would probably be asking just as many questions.. So, I wouldnt fault them, they are just doing what they think they need to.

I do appreciate the support. I hope in the end, we will all have a better understanding of what may and may not cause these artifacts - or what it takes to drive me insaine... :laugh:

LOL, I'm game, I'll go with you Melissa and Hairyman, let's make this a ladies camp out, it may be hard to locate the orange mohawk midget tho. :laugh:
Hairyman, is the ripple to bribe the Ranger or LEO

ohh now theres the next great mystery.. midgets with orange mohawks.. :laugh:

I am about due for a vacation. :eek3dance:

My old geology/volcanics prof would have a fit if I did not correct what Iaid in my previous post. Of course, the heavier stuff would have fallen closer to the mountain. While the lighter, dust like material, would have traveled farther. Why the Moses Lake area and farther east got something like talcum powder.

Yes, NW - even I collected a pint jar of "ash" to take and show off to some friends in Hermiston, Oregon. Who had missed out in the ash fall a couple of weeks earlier. The question is did people keep the plastic bags and jars of ash collected at the time. Over the past 26 years, my guess is that most of it went out to the dumpster.

I wonder if ash from St. Helen's would infact give the same casting impression as the much older and weathered ash from Onion Mountain. While both would make cast, might there not be a difference in how well ash from one site might hold and preserve a print compared to the ash from hundreds of miles away and on the other side of the Cascade Range.

HA! You must be entering the discussion late...Onion Mountain soil doesn't have any ash in it, hence the agrument over why volcanic ash was used to disprove the dermal ridges!



midgets with orange mohawks are easier to find than you think!!!

The ripple? You have to wait and see.... :wink:

:doh:

Gee whiz...this has turned into a pointless dumb ash thread.......

Ya know, I have six coffee cans filled with St. Helens ash from '80.

The bidding starts at $1! :new_lmaosmiley:

I agree. No worries - it will liven up soon.. :laugh:

Man, what a bummer. Can you imagine? Sitting in jail and someone asks you, "whatcha in for?" Umm..I took a cup of volcanic ash from the GNP...what are you in for?

Thanks - I needed a second opinion after reading all this & Tube's in-depth ( :icon14: ) write-up on his web site.

Seems to me that spash-coating is a way forward (although I've ever cast an animal track of any sort - so there may be reasons why it can't always be used that I'm not aware of).

Also that older casts displaying both dermal-like impressions and the appearance of being poured-in especially if the rest of the detail is poor, be at least approached with caution?

Edited to remove excess &'s

And to add:


:laugh: :laugh:

UFFDA!!! :laugh:

JohnWS - I agree with you. Splash casting is the way to go. But, there are issues that one should understand with that as well. I have only done this with Plaster of Paris but I can tell you - get the water too warm, or the first splash too thick - and you will end up with little hard round circles - all over the cast. I will post pictures of this - it will be easier to see it and know what Im talking about.

It took me a while to get this mix right. :laugh:

Littering.