Just checked out Loren Coleman's guide to mystery primates of the world, and it left me a little bewildered. Not only did this man state there are more than five types of mystery primate in the northwest alone, he believes that gnomes, dwarfs, giants and mermaids are real as well, albeit they're primates. Now, I'm not saying that these statements are entirely impossible and should be dismissed, but it seems like Coleman takes every account he reads to the bank. Thoughts? Am I over-cynical? Am I right to think this way?

Coleman is a professional cryptologist. I don't know him personally, but I suspect he's very good at promotion and knows what sells books.

So no, I don't think you're being overly cynical, but for Coleman, this is a job, not a hobby. I'd bet he's written about a lot of things he wasn't all that enthusiastic about but knew it'd be good for sales.

I liked Bigfoot! a lot. That's about all of his I've read.

I have my own personal opinion of Loren, but I will say that IMO he's just as close to proving some of the things he writes about as the rest of us are to proving that which is near and dear to us. :wink:

Professional cryptologist? Nah, that would be me. :laugh: (from 1975-84 anyway). I'm pretty sure there's a few of us code-heads that are members of the BFF. :wink:

I think you meant cryptozoologist, though I've not aware of any university where you can get a legitimate degree.

RayG

Bigfoot! was great. That's the first book I read after delving myself into bigfoot culture. I don't doubt that Coleman is exceptional at wa=hat he does, but I think some of his theories are a little farfetched. And thanks for giving me a new point of view. He might just write what sells.

I'm not sure about Mermaids, Gnomes, Dwarfs & the like ( well i am sure, they're not real ) but i don't disbelieve the theory regarding different types of mystery Primate. Maybe they're spread all over N America & not just the NW but i'm pretty sure that the classic PNW BF is not the same as the FL Skunk Ape !!!

I heartely agree, but Coleman insisted that there wer Bigfoots, True Giants, Marked Hominids, Neanderthals, and Unknown Pongids in the PNW alone. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Coleman seems to be trying to be splitting hairs and at the same time classifying a group of unclassified animals.

Damn you, spell checker!! :new_grrr:

Yes, that's what I meant. And I don't know if they exist or not. Maybe I'm saying that's what he'd call himself, though I don't know if he does.

Don't see where you can get a degree in cryptology in this country either, you must be one hell of a mathemitician though.

Can you be a zoologist and specialize in cryptozoology? Doesn't seem to be the case

Alex

I think it was for Sanderson and Heuvelmans. Sanderson coined the term while still a student. Heuvelmans coined it later, independently.

I don't know if Coleman refers to himself as a cryptozoologist, but the media sure does.

"What is Cryptozoology?

The word “cryptozoology” literally means the study of the evidence for hidden animals. An expanded definition of cryptozoology is the study of hidden animals that are large enough to be noticed by humans and, to date, are not formally recognized by “Western science” or “formal zoology” but are supported in some way by testimony from a human being who often has physical evidence to bolster his/her claim.

How does someone become a Crytpozoologist?

Years of training and passion for the field are required to be a successful cryptozoologist. For example, university level training in anthropology, zoology, biology, or forensic sciences is most helpful. However, as there is no formal educational criteria to be a cryptozoologist, anyone that is a passionate student of cryptozoology can be termed a cryptozoologist."

http://www.caw2005.com/q_and_a.html

Apparently, he not only refers to himself as a cryptozoologist, but according to his website, he's The Cryptozoologist!

No word on the professional part.

hey bipto & researchers here i realy injoy reading loren coleman bigfoot & cryptozoology articles in cryptomundo everyday etc. good evening bill

There's a fine line between those that are open minded, and those who's brain has fallen out because they got a little too open minded...

Which one is Loren Colemam?...

Personally, I agree with Bipto...Coleman writes books for money...Take that however Ya may...

I loved Loren's book Bigfoot! The True Story of Apes in America. I was not however as impressed with his

"field guide" books. Loren hides no fact that this is an occupation for him, to my knowledge. Wish I could make

money on my hobbies though. Seriously, I don't think he is rolling in the bucks coming in from these books. We

all have to male a living some how. But I agree with Randy:



I think that some of the material in his field guide books would prove Randy's point!


Just my opinion,

Sean

Touche. Though I didn't get an actual degree in cryptology, nor am I a math whiz, I was trained in the basics of cryptography, and spent nine years encrypting, decrypting, transmitting, receiving, collecting, and distributing highly classified messages to and from security agencies within NATO countries. (paid by the government to do this too)



Don't think so, though you could be a zoologist with a keen interest in crypto critters. :wink:

RayG

I too am a big fan of " The Apes among us " Book !!!

I know a former zooologist, who is now a full-time cryptozoologist.

Has a degree in Zoology and everything :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

I absolutely agree. Loren has every right in the world to make a buck and if that means writing about pixies and bigfoot, I say more power to him.

It's up to each individual which is involved in this field to make the decision of how they're going to contribute, taking into consideration what kind of effect their actions will have upon the field in general, including public perception. I do not ascribe to the theory which says this field is already viewed by the general public as being full of loons and wishful thinkers, therefore it cannot be tarnished anymore that it already is. IMO, that position only helps to straighten out the tracks for those who continually hop aboard the romantic express bound toward La La Land. I believe there's still a chance to reverse the negative misconceptions that have been heaped upon this subject(bigfoot), and that we all should at least try to do our part in making that happen. Loren is one of the more high-profile contributers, and he has to know how his books and the theories presented within will be percieved. If he can live with that knowledge, then yes, more power to him. Hey, he's making a buck, right? Doesn't mean that I'll agree with him or purchase any of his books, though.

Sorry,I wasn't trying to fence, more to understand.

Now, you can do a degree at Arizona State in cryptography and a very large percentage of those guys end up at NSA. It's a very interesting field, and demanding in the math department, which is why I was impressed with your math ability if you can work with code.

So I guess now the operative term is 'professional' in that he gets paid for it. lol

Alex

"Obtaining an undergraduate degree from Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, Coleman majored in anthropology, minored in zoology, and did some summer work in archaeology. He received a graduate degree in psychiatric social work from Simmons College in Boston. Coleman was admitted to the Ph.D. programs, and took doctoral coursework in social anthropology at Brandies University, and in sociology at the University of New Hampshire's Family Research Laboratory."

http://www.lorencoleman.com/cryptozoologist.html

I'd say some of the cases he's reported belong more in the realm of psychiatry than cryptozoology.

Sometimes I think he's putting us on.

Full Article
" After obtaining a degree in cryptozoology, he plans to move into the field of robotics."

This guy thinks he's getting a degree in Cryptozoology, but I checked the UT Austin Course Catalogs, where he attends college and didn't find any reference to it.

I did find an article about a lady who had a "Cryptozoology Degree" from a Correspondence Course, but she was in England and you said speicifically this country. Also found Colleges?, probably diploma mills in France and Germany that would give you a Degree in Cryptozoology. And then found this little tidbit:

"Florida Keys Community College has scheduled its award-winning, Internet-Based cryptozoology course to begin on August 28, 2006. Registration for the course is now open. You'll find a link to the FKCC registration information page right on the home page of cryptozoology.com."

Not a degree, but even a course is interesting.
http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_v...&pid=375739

Upon checking the Florida Keys Community College website, the school that offered the course, I found that it's actually a course that's being presented in partnership with "Desire2Learn". Also interesting is the "Desire2Learn" programs are accessed via the NON-CREDIT Online Courses link.

Other courses offered by this partnership... Introductory Cake Decorating, Learn Basic Computer Skills in Haitian Creole, and Some Essays from Jose Marti.

bigfoot I can handle believing, but the mermaids,dwarfs etc.... well let us just say "mans gotta make a living" and if it sells then sell it. :wink:

[quote name='moregon' date='Oct 18 2006, 06:22 AM' post='347118']
"Florida Keys Community College has scheduled its award-winning, Internet-Based cryptozoology course to begin on August 28, 2006."

How had this course won awards before it began? [Oh wait - I think I know what they meant by this now!]


People are often surprised to learn that you really can't major in "Ornithology" anywhere in the States but one or two places. We bird-brains come from departments of Biology, Wildlife and Fisheries, Ecology, Environmental Science, etc.


I see a distinction between cryptozoology aimed at known species thought to be no longer with us (like Thylacines and to some extent Ivorybills), and cryptozoology aimed at mermaids, unicorns, etc.. (I'd put bigfooters somewere between those two extremes.)

I personally think Loren Coleman is nothing more than a self promoter. Anything i ever read written by him always refers to '' my book''' or '' in my book'' or '' buy a copy of my book''. I think he uses cryptomundo to sell '' his books''. :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

Being a bit of a writer Myself, and knowing a best selling author or two, I can say they are self promoters. the more you tell people about your books or yourself, the more they will lean towards buying. royalties are based on the numbers sold, their books dont sell they dont get any money. They dont get paid they end up in the line at the local welfare office sucking up My money. I dont mind a lil self promotion if it keeps them out of the welfare lines lol

There is a theory floating around on a few internet sites I have browsed that the gnomes, mermaids, fairies and bigfoot type creatures were all at one time or another inhabitants of this planet and that the human mind carries a surpressed, primordial memory of man's co-existence with these actual beings (which most could be assumed to be ancient stages of evolution in primates) throughout the ages. Occasionally and under certain circumstances these images and memories suddenly jump up and cause various visions and reactions which are now the basis of the bigfoot sightings, gnomes, etc. Cryptos are the modern interpretation of now extinct species? Some reference specific Bible scriptures which they state are historical record of man's and/or the Creator's interaction with various crypto type creatures. Other theories point to archeological findings, ancient excavations and more science based evidence that can be evaluated to be significant to some degree. Is this the angle , perhaps Coleman is looking at? I haven't read more than bits of his publications and several of his postings on the web. Are you suggesting that he acknowledges the existence of gnomes, mermaids and the like, in the present? If so, where exactly do they live at the moment? (And please don't say down on the Carter Farm in Tennessee)

I also have a hard time accepting the idea that humans have a mechanism wired into their brains, a by-product of evolution and cohabitation of with a giant extinct gorilla, that makes us suddenly see 8ft tall, 1000lbs bipeds walking around in the woods at various places around the world. Pre-historic humans (if you subscribe to the theory of evolution) also shared the planet with mastedons, saber tooth tigers, and bears the size of mini-vans. Some of these beasts actually included humans as a regular item on their list prey. I would assume that if you were walking home from gathering firewood one day with your buddies, say back about the last ice age, just a having a big old time and suddenly a tiger as big as a cow and with foot long tushes hanging out of his jaw, jumped out of the bush, grabbed one of your tribe by the neck, give him a good crunch and casually lept off with the corpse in tow. Say, maybe it happened once or twice a year and of course your elders also shared some personal encounters of this nature as well as some slightly embelished tales from their ancestors. Now if I was around back then, armed with my pointy stick and considering what I had seen and heard in my struggles to survive, I imagine a heap of my time, especially out in the field foraging and such, a great deal of my mind would be pre-occupied with sabre-tooth tigers. Not to mention what kind of nightmares a feller would have had. I doubt that I would more than very little consideration, unless I just happened to bump into him while out hunting, (which I'll bet was usually a real surprise followed by a big feeling of relief once you seen it was not a tiger) or even the odd passing thought about the great big old hairy ape that loved leaves and berries, possessed nothing but a mouth full of cupped molars for grinding up twigs and roots, and was never threatening or agressive towards my tribe.

Common sense says, if anything was imprinted in the mind of modern man due to his evolution and experiences in this process, it would surely be significant to the continuation of the species and relevent to a pattern of generational succession. What is the benefit of an image of a large and historically non-threatening biped appearing to evolved man? Believers of this theory that casually is used to brush off the thousands of BF sightings around the world, state that it is commonly associated with stress/uncertainty/surprise types of situations. Example: you see the shadow of big black object, kinda looked like a dog you think, as it bounds off into the woodline on the edge of a clearing, because only the general outline was determined with your eyes for just a second, your brain has a hard time analyzing just exactly what the eyes are reporting and is flipping thru all the different files in your head of items that it could be. Furthermore it is almost dark, your in an unfamiliar place and kinda spooked anyway, the endorphines and adrenaline just kicked up a notch and your brain goes into survival mode in order to effeciently remedy the situation and get you out of harms way (because we are not sure what we saw, might've been a dog? but it is getting dark and because the sight sense is limited due to lack of light and postion of object into the even darker brush, your other senses are tuning up trying to pick up any data to add to the process of identification) Sounds and smells that were just a few moments ago unnoticed are suddenly acutely amplified and the sound of a twig snapping is quickly factored into the formula, and about now is when (according to the theory) your brain sort of just gives up on it. Instead of analytically considering any options such as, perhaps I shall walk over to the tree line and see if I can see for sure what it there, before it gets totally dark. The evolved human brain, in the case of thousands of observations made all over the planet in past few hundred years, will suddenly project the image of a bigfoot type creature in place of logic or reasoning. Our brain, in the attempt to remove us from a possibly dangerous situation in the most efficient manner possible, it needs to amp up our adrenaline levels and kick in our suppressed pre-historic fear of being preyed upon by a beast, the brain then opts to show you a big vegetarian ape.

Kinda anti-climatic aint it? Why don't folks see sabre-toothed tigers or some other large carnivores when in a situation as described? IMO, it would make more sense to me that there would be databases of sightings and thousands of web base sites devoted to the fact that reports of giant cats with big teeth are being occasionally spotted by typically honest and upstanding citizens around the planet. Honestly, a 10ft ape would scare the hell out of most people, but this 'logical explanation' offered as proof that most all eyewitness accounts by respectable individuals are unreliable, is pretty lame. If as they state, it is the result of evolution and the events that actually happened during and prior to the last ice age. It just makes sense to me the vision of a stalking sabre tooth would have a higher 'poop your loincloth and run' rating factor than a fleeing ape?

It is his profession, after all. He's an author. Author's promote their books. The more they sell, the more they can eat, feed themselves, acquire shelter, etc. :wink:

Hmmm...

Your responses surprise me, I have to say! No. I don't think his theories are so farfetched.

I think the best defense is no defense, , or almost no defense.

He's one of the foremost "go to" people in the world for cryptozoology. He isn't "flash & dash in the pan". He's been around a while. He's pretty sane & reasonable. He's scientific. "Nough said. All my opinion.

Now who would you rather have the media going to for information? MM or EB maybe? :doh: Get real.

hey everyone often like reading loren articles they are interesting indeed in his section in cryptomundo, but lately im getting speechless upset & little disappointed by his articles. yes i understand those articles very fully. thanks bill

All of the in-fighting, ridicule of Meldrum, controversy with MK Davis, criticism of the BFRO, and all of the other politics is because of one thing: no monkey.

Do you think this would be happening if we had one?

Yes, and then some....

If we had one, then I'm sure there would be plenty of fighting - Moneymaker would be first in line claiming that he owns all legal rights to Bigfoot, and that any money Bigfoot earns should belong to him.

There is a great book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by TS Kuhn, where he points out that pre-paradigm fields in science are characterized by recourse to philosophy, internal squabling, disagreement over fundamentals, etc. That's what we have here.

But you're probably right about the personalities involved. I can't believe anyone really sees their interest in bigfoot as some kind of money making venture. In other words, I'm not going to quit my day job...

So, Morgoth, you're one of them? Which one?

Sorry, I'm a newbie and don't understand the question. I'm a... what?

I guess the way you stated it, it sounded to me like you might be one of the scientists or investigators Morgoth. Maybe I misinterpreted what you said. My bad?! Yep, good idea, keep your day job til you have the critter in tow!

im realy looking forward to reading loren future articles about bigfoot etc in 2007 in cryptomundo. thanks bill im sure we all be suprised.

I will agree with Loren Coleman on one point. I think there is more than one type of these creatures we all call Bigfoot. There are just too much variation in the descriptions of the creatures from area to area. They seem to have different reactions to us humans when an encounter occurs.

Some say they look more like apes..others say they look human in the face. Most have this question hanging in the back of their mind..In the past was it possible that somehow something got crossed with something else? Maybe there was a race of humans that were big in size and had hair growing all over them.

I watched TLC program the other night "What makes us human" very interesting stuff. They even showed Oliver..Oliver is alive and well living in Texas. His DNA showed he is a chimp but it did not match any other known chimp.

The other interesting thing was that about a cross between a Lion and a Tiger. It produces a Hybrid that is bigger than either one.

Damn this stuff is getting complicated.

Mike (watch1)

I can see where you're coming from but lets look at Human Beings..

If you put a 20 something year old Swedish Guy in a room with an 80 year old Vietnamese Woman & a 40 year old man from the Congo, they could definately be determined to be a different species but they're not !!! :wink:

Whoah-ho.... touche.

Good luck with that theory. I guess I am new also (to this forum anyway) but I have been flabbergasted by the number of people who are dead set against getting a monkey. You'll love the responses as to why, I am not going to ruin that for you. I waded right in at first and just threw out the BS and asked honest legitimate questions concerning their claims and views. These type of posts quickly turn invisible for some reason and nobody seems to see them? But mention a WWE rasslin' match between BF and a Grizzly Bear, or BF's relation to the other dimensions, ufos, or the spirit world, you'll be up all night reading posts.

I've got to learn to pick my threads or just lurk and glean what I can from the forum. I have went on a rant or two when I just couldn't help it, and the responses were mostly laughable at best. I would have never guessed that anyone claiming to be interested in researching the BF would be more interested in hugging one rather than providing one as a speciman for scientific evaluation. Go Figure?

olcowman, I think you've stumbled on some threads where if you'd been around a little longer, you'd notice a more sarcastic tone in the posts of the participants, also there are threads where one understands the speculative nature of the topic and participates in that mindset. The former threads provide a little light relief, the latter threads help to get us thinking and may provide insight.

So, no monkey, several possible hypotheses,
i) there is no monkey
ii) everyone hunting the monkey for the kill has been so incompetent they shouldn't be left alone with sharp objects, the monkey is an easy kill for the right guy.
iii) the monkey is smart.

Daft as it may sound, i) is pretty much untestable, though apparently more statistically likely. The second hypothesis, you may test if you wish, I'm sure you're the man to drag home just another dumb animal, just get on some tracks and it's about a 1 in 3 shot of catching up to it right? Easy! However, assuming that we've had at least a couple of outdoorsmen worth the name putting appropriate effort into the hunt, we tend to end up at iii) When you realise that, you begin to wonder how smart, because if you're gonna pop a cap in it's ass, you wanna outsmart it, which is kinda hard unless you know exactly how smart it is. Now either by direct experience, or by assimilating that of others, you may slowly come to the conclusion that the monkey is quite smart indeed. You begin to respect the monkey. Sooner or later you've heard or seen enough, to think "Why should I waste an intelligent creature for a guy in a white coat to tell me it's real?"

Thus the conundrum is, that those who are callous and hardhearted enough to kill one, usually underestimate it such that their chance of ever having a shot is very unlikely. Those that respect the creature enough to be able to get close, are unlikely to want to harm it.

My position is, leave 'em alone while they leave us alone. I wouldn't go looking for a kill, but if personally, or through a research effort, I found there was a situation where a BF was hassling a property, then I'd take that as one "being a volunteer" and would assist at kill or capture efforts.... and I'd still feel bad about it, but at least I'd have more reasons than just to let the guys in white coats poke at one.



Flash.

It's true thought Kucta, they wouldn't look the same but we are in fact all the same !!