Hi,

Sorry to hijack this old thread, but I wasn't able to successfully start a new one.

I'm wondering about the hypothetical possibility of Bigfoot as a de-evolved form of a more advanced species. I am an independent filmaker in Texas and I'm currently doing research for a possible scifi/fantasy project that would feature ancient giant races like the "Nephilim" mentioned in Genesis.

In researching this subject, I came upon a number of accounts of a giant race that may have once populated North America. One story in particular refernces ancient giants in Ohio:

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ohiogiants.html

I'm a Bigfoot fan, and this story caught my attention as Ohio seems to be one of the hotter spots for Bigfoot sightings. Some of the more fantastic accounts on the Web tell of ancient cities of this giant race hidden beneath Death Valley and the Grand Canyon.

Recently, I was listening to the Bigfoot "Samurai Chatter" clips, and the idea struck me that these sorts of Bigfoot vocalizations could be the corrupted remnants of an ancient language. A Bigfoot connection to a "lost race" might be an interesting way to spin a "modern connnection" into a fantasy story about the ancient giants.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone on the forum had any reactions or ideas about this.

Thanks!

--J

I think some people assume that a bipedal hominid has to be some kind of human. Actually, the fossil record has shown hominid bipedalism is at least 6-9 million years old and is by no means limited to Homo.

I think your idea would be great sci-fi/fantasy, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Sasquatches.

It's not my idea, it's Pete Travers' idea. (Actually, it's the idea of one of the characters in his novel--I don't know if Travers endorses it or not, though it's likely.) I just wanted to point the poster toward someone who was speculating along the same lines he was. I am determined to have no opinion on the lineage of Bigfoot et al. until one is on the slab. And maybe not even then.

You can pretty much ignore any giants-as-mounbuilders stories from the 19th century. It was commonly thought back then that someone other than Native Americans were responsible for mounds, ranging from the aforementioned giants to a lost tribe of Israel. And the bit from the linked article about modern anthropologists theorizing about these giants as some pre-NA race is an out-and-out fabrication.

I think the Indians buried Sasquatches in some of their mounds.

Has anyone read this before? Just wondering about its accuracy.

Kerry

There are stories of two tribes of giants believed to have been eradicated by Indians. These native legends seem to fit the profile with suggestive detail, and geographic accuracy. In Northern California it has been suggested that the Washoe and The Paiutes of Walker Lake region assisted in eradicating a tribe of giants, described as hair covered and of lower intelligence, on the Eastern slopes of the Sierra's.

Yet another Indian legend, reported by David Cusic, a Tuscorora by birth, recalls that an ancient tribe of giants once existed in Ohio called the Ronnongwetowanca, who had a considerable habitation. The Adena, known as the mound builders, seem to have arrived in the Ohio Valley around 1,000 BC. According to legend, after enduring attacks from the Ronnongwetowanca the Adena banded together in a force of 800 killing off the Ronnongwetownca altogether. The questions we pose for additional thought. Could this story have been carried down nearly 2,000 years? How accurate would such an account be in time frame? Dr. Fahrenbach told The Royal Forum, "Such oral traditions change in the course of time and have at best some general suggestive content, but the details would be dubious." What we know about these stories is that over time as they are passed on details are either changed or forgotten altogether. Is it possible the natives lost some important information in the story such as hair covered men with ape like features? Would it be likely Indians would associate apes with human like traits, calling them men altogether? Could some of the remnants of this population have survived?

In 1846 Joseph Henry, first secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, estimated there were ten thousand mounds constructed by the Adena in Ohio alone. These mounds were constructed to bury the dead. Today less than 500 mounds exist in a reconstructed form.

There appears to be little or no proof the following accounts took place, besides what has been published in various news papers, magazines, and journals over the years, however these accounts might warrant further archeological investigation. It seems ironic that one of the largest complaints in science has always been where is the scientific evidence? Yet, it might appear the most conclusive proof has been uncovered, but not identified.

For if the account of the Ronnongwetownca has any truth behind the story there might be a very real biological link to Sasquatch, which could perhaps be identified through DNA or other related tests.

The Royal Forum discovered the following accounts, which appeared to validate the legend, whereby human remains of massive proportion have been reportedly unearthed. It is important to note that those doing the excavations where most likely not scientists who would naturally identify the difference between a Neanderthal like skull and a Homo sapien. In some cases papers have reported these remains where sent to institutions, but have turned up missing. Regardless, there appears to be no signs of significant proof many of the following skeletal remains have actually been uncovered. Many might ask so why report them? It is of our opinion to report facts and inspire ideas for study of further examination. Quite simply what we have are many reports with little or no supportive evidence the events took place.

In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, John Haywood wrote in 1821 that a fortification containing skeletons at least seven feet in height had been unearthed.

In 1829, a large skeleton was unearthed from a mound in Chesterville during the construction of a hotel. The local examination of the skull stated the skull could easily fit over a man's head. The skull also possessed an additional row of teeth.

In Wisconsin, during the mid 1850s Dr. J.N. DeHart presumably found vertebrae of what he classified as "larger than those of the present type."

In 1872, three skeletons were found in Seneca Township, Noble County, Ohio, in what is now called 'Bates' Mound. All three skeletons were measured and found to be over eight feet tall and proportional in bone structure. In addition, the skeletons all had double rows of teeth.

Again another individual W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones of large size in mounds around Kansas City in 1877.

Later, in Ashtabula County, Ohio in 1878, more skeletons were excavated on land belonging to Peleg Sweet. In the first mound, they unearthed a very large skull and jaw. Excavating further, they discovered an estimated two and three thousand graves disposed in straight rows. Some of the skeletal remains were reported to of "large size" and blackened with time soon crumbled to dust.

The Indianapolis News reported Nov. 10, 1975 that a 9 foot, 8 inch skeleton was excavated from a nearby mound in Berwerville, Indiana in 1879.

Meanwhile, another report in the St. Paul Pioneer Press, May 23rd 1883 reported 10 skeletons of gigantic size were removed from a mound. The remains included both sexes.

In The History of Brown County, Ohio published in 1883, there is an account of three skeletons reportedly found at the mouth of the Paw Paw Creek when men digging for a bridge foundation found the bones at the lower end of old buffalo wallow. When the skeletons were exposed to the weather for a few days, their bones turned black and began to crumble. The Squire of Satterfield had them buried in the Joliffe graveyard (Rivesville). All these skeletons found to be about eight feet long.

The Scientific American, in 1883, published an article stating two miles from Mandan, on the bluffs near the junction of the Hart and Missouri Rivers is 100 acre cemetery filled with bones of a giant race. The local paper, The Pioneer stated the ground has the appearance of trenches piled full of dead bodies covered with several feet of earth. In many places mounds were discovered to be between 8 and 10 feet high. Some of them were 100 feet or more in length.

Again the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported June 29th, 1888 the discovery of seven skeletons seven to eight feet tall in Minnesota.

Ironton Register, a small Ohio River town newspaper, dated 5 May 1892 stated where Proctorville now stands a few mounds were found. One near the C. Wilgus mansion contained a very large skeleton. The skull was found to have double rows of teeth and was reported to again be of size to fit over a man's head. Skeletons were found at a depth of 6 ft. and near a boulder stone pavement.

In the Chicago Record dated Oct. 24th, 1895 there was a another report by Ton G. Dobbins that another mound near Toledo, Ohio harvested 20 skeletons with jaws and teeth reported to be twice the size of normal dental features.

What we know about some of these reports is that remains were sent to various institutions and subsequently disappeared. One such skeleton was reportedly on display at Mark Twain museum in Virginia City, NV, and had a wisp of red hair still attached. Indians have since repatriated it and has most likely been reburied in some Indian graveyard in an unmarked grave.

Some scientists have discounted the remains are associated with Pituitary Gigantism. The tallest man, Robert Wadlow, had Pituitary Gigantism and grew to be an astonishing 8' 11 inches. Gigantism is an excessive secretion of growth hormone during childhood before the closure of the bone growth plates, which causes over growth of the long bones and very tall stature. The odds of having the disease are 3 in 1 million.

If the newspaper accounts are ever found to have any basis of truth, statistically archeologists would have to of unearthed at minimum millions graves to account for this population. On the flip side, if these reports were in fact hoaxes, numerous publications including journals and newspapers would have to of been involved in either exaggerating accounts or printing information in absence of a follow-up investigation. Under the analysis of these accounts, The Royal Forum asked Dr. Fahrenbach about these reports. He replied, "I am familiar with a variety of reports of giant skeletons found here and there, but all that always seems to happen without the interaction of somebody who knows exactly what to do with such material. I only hope that such material will get into the right hands one of these days and is not shunted aside with a casual comment about "tall Indians". In any case, It is always worthwhile to remain cognizant of what might be waiting for a discoverer out there and be mentally prepared to take appropriate action." Should this alone not warrant cause for further investigation?

"I think some people assume that a bipedal hominid has to be some kind of human. Actually, the fossil record has shown hominid bipedalism is at least 6-9 million years old and is by no means limited to Homo."

Would you please state your reference source for the above?

I found this:
"KP 29285, Australopithecus anamensis
Discovered by Kamoya Kimeu in 1994 at Kanapoi in Kenya. This is a tibia, missing the middle portion of the bone, which is about 4.1 million years old. It is the oldest known evidence for hominid bipedalism."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

There is plenty of reference of fairly modern man engaged in war or genocide with more primitive hominids. I believe there may be merit to it.

I also believe you're right. They may not be human, but sort of a sub-human, of lower intelligence, or without what I like to call a spiritual nature.

I am also convinced that such warfare or genocide is the main reason why these creatures are so rare and why they are so shy/reclusive.

Interesting but old news to me. What I want to know is where are the skeletal remains??? I have a uncle who works for the Smithsonian. Although he is not in the Archeological department I will ask him if their is a secret "vault" if you will where studies are still taking place and not yet available for public display. He works in the plant and vegetation studies, going to south america alot to do research. If your looking for a good location to film try the Rosier Unit of the Big Thicket. Its vast forest contain unusally large Pine and shrubs, some parts of are very similar to the Red wood forest of the Northwest.

Sahelanthropus tchadensis "Toumai". A recent forensic reconstruction showed the plane of the foramen magnum to be at 95% like other known bipedal hominids. It's far older than anamensis and is very near the split from the line that led to chimpanzees.

There are many sources. Here's one:

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2005b.pdf

The two species of Ardipiticines are thought to have been bipedal as well, last I read. One dates to circa 6 mya.

Hm. I've read there is no evidence of warfare. Rather, the climate change drove Neandertalers and modern humans south where the modern humans were able to outcompete the Neandertals. They had co-existed for tens of thousands of years in Europe.

Homo erectus and Gigantopithecus overlapped in Asia. Giganto may have been on the menu, so a strategy of avoidance might have started there.

If Gigantopithecus is a Sasquatch ancestor, and Gigantopithecus is an orangutan relative, that would put the affinities with Orangutans, but hair analysis has shown the hair is most like gorilla-chimpanzee-human hair, so that would put them closer to us. Gigantopithecus blacki evidently descended from Gigantopithecus giganteus. Next question: What did G. giganteus evolve from?




Acid soils even eat teeth. Where are the skeletons of bears that have died a natural death?

"Actually, the fossil record has shown hominid bipedalism is at least 6-9 million years old and is by no means limited to Homo."

LAL
Do you have the name of the 9 million year old bipedal fossil?
Thank you
NS

Didnt the article state that "Intact" skeletal remains were uncovered. Duh, that means they couldnt of been to old. If thousands of mounds were here, that means the skeletons must be somewhere after they where discovered. What I want to know is can we trace back far enough to find out what exactly happened to these dug up skeletons??

Actually, I'd have to agree that climate change may have been a bigger factor than warfare, but I'm sure the warfare occurred.



I've read somewhere that the Miocene Era left evidence of lots of apes. That's some 5.5 to 23 million years, a significant biological period.

Gigantopithicus is even younger than that.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies! Thanks especially to David Thomas King for all the old news refernces. Those are very interesting.

As I stated in my first post, one thing that caught my attention was the "Samurai Chatter." What is the general consensus on these audio clips? To me they sound very much as if an actual language being spoken-- or at least mimicked. Have any linguists or other specialists ever weighed in in these recordings? Are they deemed authentic, or a probable hoax? If there is some linguistic basis behind them, it might lend to the concept of a degenerated race that was once more advanced. [E.g. The "Ee Pleb Neesta" from old Star Trek comes to mind...]

--J

I have seen the new theory that Neanderthal went extinct because they had very short range thrusting spears and the spread of grasslands. It is an interesting idea but seems to deny the true nature of modern humans.(IMO) The aggressive nature of modern humans is certainly obvious in the history of nearly every group of people on earth as far back as history goes. There has been almost continuous warfare between competing groups. The exceptions are rare.

I think it far more likely that one of the erectus is the one who adopted a strategy of avoidance. The more primitive Giganto probably just didn't have the smarts to remain hidden. I do think the evidence is rather weak that Giganto is more "primitive" but it is the prevailing view.

It is entirely possible that erectus was the ancestor of bigfoot and had to adopt a more primitive lifestyle to avoid modern humans and our ancestors. It is more likely that bigfoot is descended from a group of hominids that have been assigned technology and characteristics based on flimsy evidence and preconceived notions. (JMO)

I tend to agree with LAL that bipedalism has probably been around for at least 6 million years as evidenced by Toumai and possibly a couple other bipedal apes and it seems reasonable to conclude that bipedalism was probably was around for at least one or two million years before that. The evidence for Gigantopithecus however consists of some teeth and a few jaw fragments for Blacki and less for Giganteous. I wonder if Blacki and Giganteous are in the same genus based primarily on size. It would be interesting if they found that Gigantopithecus were bipedal but that is very speculative at this point. If it were found to be bipedal, it would be a very likely ancestor for bigfoot in my opinion. It seems simpler to me to find a known bipedal ape or hominid. The known number of biped candidates is large; however, when you look to Asia where it seems likely Bigfoot has migrated from, Erectus does seem to be a pretty good candidate.

Asian Homo erectus was a tool maker. Turkana boy, from Africa, had proportions much like modern humans.

I don't think so.

Meldrum mentions a hominid found in China. Gotta look that one up.

Oreopithecus (from Italy) evidently evolved bipedalism and some other hominid traits independently. Meldrum suggests convergent evolution in the case of Sasquatch and its ancestors. That's an intriguing possibility (orangs walk rather well bipedally).

Giganto's teeth (there are about 1100 of those) show wear patterns similar to chimpanzees, indicating an omnivore. The canines are reduced as in other bipedal hominids.

When "Toumai" was first annonounced it was dated to 6-9 mya, as I recall. Looks like that's been narrowed down to about 7 mya. Still very old, though, and who knows what hasn't been found yet?

Oreopithecus bambolii has been dated to about 6.5-8.5 mya. It's represented by about 50 individuals, making it one of the best known fossil apes.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here. I hadn't read DTK's post yet and thought you were referring to Sasquatch skeletons.

I've read some Icelandic burials touted to be Sasquatch were actually of victims of acromegaly.

"Small pituitary adenomas are common. During autopsies, they are found in up to 25 percent of the U.S. population. However, these tumors rarely cause symptoms or produce excessive GH or other pituitary hormones. Scientists estimate that about 3 out of every million people develop acromegaly each year and that 40 to 60 out of every million people suffer from the disease at any time. However, because the clinical diagnosis of acromegaly often is missed, these numbers probably underestimate the frequency of the disease."

http://endocrine.niddk.nih.gov/pubs/acro/acro.htm#howcommon

Just want to point out that there's no such thing as de-evolution. Evolution means change to adapt. If it is more adaptive to become smaller and dumber - or whatever - that is what will happen... and that is evolution. Living things adapt as the envioronment demands. There is no trend to become "higher." Maybe some day sasquatches will evolve into worm like creatures. (So watch where you step.)

Spoilsport. :wink:

That's what I meant by flimsy evidence and preconceived notions. It also implies that they are all the same animal and had the same technology.

You all have to give up on this idea that there was an ancient race of giant people... because it says so right here and there and that other place on the internet.... (and the dumb scientists lost the bones!)

That is all false. If it isn't, show us a legitimate source (stuff on websites isn't legitimate). What is legitimate? Peer reviewed papers in scientific journals.

You've got to stop flitting off with wild ideas based on... BS.

Sure, sorry I should have included that info. In fact, I'll post the whole article as I'm not sure it is online anymore. Here it is:

Click to view attachment

World's Top Experts Conclude Sasquatch Exists

By Bryan K. Beets

August 24, 2004

Mankind has carefully documented over 2 million species throughout the world, yet many scientists are in agreement there might be as many as eight million species we have not yet identified.

The study of unidentified species presumed to exist without conclusive proof is called Cryptozoology. In 1988, Professor Valentin Sapunov of Russia suggested a new term for science called Cryptobiology defining the study of biological objects and phenomena under deficiency of information. It is the study of enigma within the system of scientific knowledge. His argument suggested, "The important basis of modern biology is recurrence," suggesting low repeatability in a phenomena doesn't necessarily indicated the absence of its existence. Sapunov stated, "Low repeatability means impossibility to control the phenomenon. The difference between ordinary biology and cryptobiology are the patterns of methods," used in research.

In choosing to cover one of our most controversial articles to date, The Royal Forum selected to examine evidence profiling the elusive and legendary Bigfoot. We have carefully examined statistical methods, DNA testing, biological collection, computer modeling, imprint identification, scaling, vocal analysis, eye witness accounts, and expert opinions in search of evidence. We have profiled the traits of the animal, collected a variety of native names, and have researched the potential possibility of skeletal remains. We approached this investigation with an open mind, carefully examining the facts, leads and new ideas about the evidence.

Socrates once stated, "The knowledge of our own ignorance is the first step toward true knowledge." In reading this topic it is important to understand we are ourselves rationale creatures presume to have all the answers taught to us as accepted science. Yet have we not learned that our assumptions can be wrong? Did we not once widely presume the world was flat and that Homo sapiens where descended from Neanderthals? In our assumption of having all the answers in absence of mere hard evidence we find a certain security that our logic and fundamental knowledge of our surroundings are correct. Todd Neiss, who witnessed three Sasquatches while conducting high explosives training in the temperate rain forest of Oregon's Coast Range, told The Royal Forum, "We as modern society tend to only believe what we are spoon fed through our education and reading. If it isn't taught to us then it is convenient for us not to believe." Man himself loves to be correct in his reasoning. So often when we find the comforts of our reasoning challenged we take a personal insult and defend our naïve notions about our surroundings.

Neiss went on to say, " We have to keep an open mind and realize we haven't found everything. Since 1990 we have found five species of deer. Peter Byrne as recently as 1993 was challenged to find a subspecies of an elephant in Nepal called the King Elephant by natives. They had an elephant with unusually pronounced lobes on its forehead that pointed back to the mammoth and mastodon days. He not only found it, but a mate to it. We are not only talking about ants, frogs, butterflies, and small things that are still being discovered. We are talking about huge things. Whales. There was a species of whale that had been written off the books as being extinct that just recently was discovered off the coast of Australia. Don’t discount that we know everything, because we don't."

Neiss has some important points. There are many animals that are continually being discovered. For example the Coelacanth, a primitive fish thought to have been extinct 65 million years was caught in a fishing net off the coast of Africa in 1938. Similarly science discovered the Megamouth shark in 1976 off the coast of Oahu, Hawaii, when it tried to eat a ship's anchor. Even an older lineage, the Graptolites, thought to have been extinct 300 million years was discovered in 1989. Such animals as the Platypus (1700s), Colossal Squid (1925), Mountain Gorilla (1902), and Komodo dragon (1912) where once reported as hoaxes, delusions, or misidentifications.

There appears to be two general genres of people of logical thought; those who are open minded and those who feel secure in the presumption that science has provided them with all the answers. Unfortunately the mistake in the reasoning of the latter is that mankind is prone to make errors and science itself is built on human reasoning. Yet in the particular subject of Bigfoot we have historically only had circumstantial evidence that such an animal exists. There have been almost a thousand foot print casts from around the world, several thousands of witness reports, and a half dozen or so credible videos of Bigfoot sightings. Every year there are more than 400 credible reports of Bigfoot in North America alone.

Thanks to the formal organization of societies around the world we have now gained enormous advances in science and are applying new technology to the study of this phenomenon. In addition, the subject is attracting the support of some pretty big names such as Jane Goodall, made famous by her studies of chimpanzees in Tanzania , who has been calling to legitimatize the study in the subject. In fact, many the worlds' top experts agree there is so much evidence Bigfoot exists that it is nearly statistically impossible to be nothing more than a continual series of hoaxes over countless generations.

The Bigfoot Field Research Organization www.bfro.net, one of the top organizations who has been instrumental in research, has documented over 1,989 sightings in an extensive database going back into the 1800s. According to the BFRO, the single state with the record for the highest concentration of sightings is Washington with over 296 documented cases. This is fairly easy to understand if you took a look at the state's vast forest land and mountainous region where man rarely ventures.

The highest ranking states behind Washington include California with 281 sightings, Ohio with 158, Oregon with 149, and Texas with 106 cases. There is only one state in the United States, which has never had a sighting; the wonderful state of Hawaii.

BFRO categorizes sightings in three classes; A, B, C. Class A accounts include accounts whereby witnesses actually see and identify the creature. Class B encounters includes ubiquitous footprints, and all sightings where figures are viewed at great distances, under poor lighting conditions, or any other circumstance with a poor view. This group also consists of vocalizations. Class C reports are defined as third party sightings.

Accounts are stored in the BFRO database and are listed in a similar format to the report provided to us by witness Terry Reams, who experienced one of the most credible sightings of all time. Terry told The Royal Forum the following, "My father was driving eastbound on Interstate 84 along the Columbia River at about 7pm; it was raining, but not torrential. It was dark. We crested a point of the highway when we saw brake lights swerving in front of us so we slowed thinking it must be an animal or a wreck up ahead. When we got to the area of the braking we noticed a probable person running with arms swinging along the divide between the two directions of travel. My first impression was that it was someone wearing a fur type coat with a hood as I could see the wet hair. My father was in the outside lane and there was a car in the inside lane, the car ahead and inside slammed on the brakes as the figure crossed in front of their car, and my father also slowed way down. At this time the figure crossed in front of our car and my father says he felt the car hit the lower portion of the leg and made eye to eye contact with it. At that time it started to run along the outside lane still with the flow of traffic, at that time we came up to it's side. I was in the passenger side of the car and looked up at this figure as we commenced to pass. My wife was in the rear passenger window and my mother in the center of the front seat. I looked straight into his face at about 3-4 feet, and saw a look of total fright and terror in its eyes. At that moment, it made a 90 degree turn away from our oncoming car and right into the rear drivers side of an oncoming pickup with a camper on it and literally bounced off the rear corner of the camper and up about a 60 degree incline and into the trees. When I got home I called the State Patrol and asked where I was to report an unusual sighting, and he asked me if I thought It was a UFO, I told him no and he said a Bigfoot, I said well something like that. He told me to call the sheriff of the county in which it happened and I did. When I called them I went through the same conversation. I told him the facts as I knew them. He knew I was a little apprehensive, and told me not to feel apprehensive about turning in the sighting as he had taken quite a few reports that night on the same sighting and four of those where police officers. This report was taken by Peter Byrne and Barbara Wasson with NASI. Many years later, after the sighting, I had dinner with Peter in Portland, Oregon just before he moved to California and he told me that one thing he was impressed with in this report was not only that so many people at one time saw it but that two days later in the same spot but in the westbound lane they had the same report with multiple sightings. He surmised that perhaps the creature was returning back to the river the opposite direction as our sighting. The creature was 6-7 feet tall, black with wet hair, not as heavy as the so called Patterson film."

Despite many reports on the BFRO website, there are some reports like that of Todd Neiss, Former Sergeant in the Army's 1249th Combat Engineer Battalion and former VP of a shipping company, who has appeared on numerous shows including Unsolved Mysteries NBC 5/94, Encounters FOX 7/94, "To The Ends of the Earth" ITV - Britain 11/96, ”Strange But True" ITV - Britain, "Public Eye with Bryant Gumball" CBS, Discovery Channel 11/02, and Travel Channel 04/03. Neiss is currently wrapping up work with Blake "Buck" Eckard on a documentary four years in the making with Stonehill Pictures.

In an interview with The Royal Forum Neiss recalled his sighting, which occurred during 1993 on a spring day in the temperate rainforests of Oregon's Coast Range, while conducting high-explosives training. Neiss stated, "While we were convoying down to this staging area, I was glancing around the countryside when I spotted across from this ravine these three jet black figures. They were standing in the middle of the second rock quarry we blasted less than an hour before. They stood shoulder to shoulder, one taller in the middle than the two on either side facing us. As I am staring at them, I never took my eyes off of them for close to 30 seconds."

Neiss described, "The one in the middle approached nine feet and stood straight like a statue. The two that flanked it were a little shorter. The other two were exhibiting this swaying motion. It looked like they were shifting their weight foot to foot. I could see their arms swaying, which came down below their knees. A human being would come no where near the size of the silhouette they presented."

In addition to BFRO, other societies such as The Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society have been instrumental in progress. Over five hundred sightings have been documented Pennsylvania, of which the organization has collected and researched over 100 since their inception. More often, organizations are deploying high tech devices during expeditions. Eric Altman, director of the organization told The Royal Forum, "We try all methods of field research from single person field observation, to multi-person field observation. We have tried mobile group movement and stationary group/individual observation both day and night. We use audio and video recording equipment, which consists of night vision, parabolic microphones, infrared video cameras, and infra red motion activated field cameras." Meanwhile, organization such as BFRO seem to be using a technique carefully placing pheromone-basted plastic chips during the day and blasting Sasquatch calls at night. Altman went on to say, "Our year consists of numerous day and night hikes, observations and field investigations, usually between 12 and 25 a year."

Here are a few great sites you can link into to learn more about Bigfoot:

The International Bigfoot Society
The Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society
Texas Bigfoot Research Center
The Ohio Bigfoot Research Team
Arkansas Primate Encounter Studies
Florida Skunk Ape
Georgia Bigfoot
Oregon Bigfoot

For centuries scientists long scoffed at the concept that a large primate could in fact exist in North America co-existing in the remote wilderness along side an estimated 325 million people in North America for nearly 250 years. The population of both the United States and Canada combined totals 19,602,028 square kilometers. New statistical studies have shown there could be well in excess of 2,000 of these creatures residing in the forests of North America.

At the lowest number, there is perhaps a single Sasquatch per every 162 thousand people or one Bigfoot per 9,801 square kilometers (one hectometer); equivalent to the size of the Florida Everglades. Taken into account that most of our population lives in urban or rural farming communities, few hike or hunt, and even fewer venture out into the forests at night. It doesn't take rocket science to understand how a creature could evade detection. Furthermore it is believed that Bigfoot is a nocturnal animal, often traveling in family groups up to four in dense forests and can reach top running speeds in excess of 40 mph. Take into account this species might perhaps possess the highest rank of intelligence, second only to Homo sapiens, lends additional ammunition as to why it may have been difficult to document such an animal in the past. While traveling in groups Bigfoot can be difficult to find as there maybe only one group per 39,204 square kilometers; the equivalent to finding a needle in many haystacks.

Despite our familiarity with the name Bigfoot, there appears to some diversity within the species, as what would be expected from fragmented populations. Bigfoot shares diversity just like species of deer can be found in different parts of the world such as Mule deer, White tailed deer, Axis deer, Fallow deer, Sika deer, or Barasingha deer.

With geographic breeding pockets located throughout the world it would only be logical to conclude there might very well be diversity within the same species, such as race, and perhaps in some parts of the world multiple species. Sightings are spread throughout the world. We know of the Abominable Snowman of the Himalayas, the Mapinguari of the Amazon, Bigfoot/Sasquatch in North America, Yowie in Australia, The Skunk Ape of Florida, the Almas of the Altai Mountains of Mongolia, and Yeti in Asia. Perhaps the most compelling evidence of such diversity might exist between Sasquatch and the Florida Skunk Ape. While Sasquatch is often reported as having human like features, a case for inter-species diversity could be supported by some famous photos, which were anonymously mailed to the Sarasota Sheriff's Department in Florida in the year 2000. The photos are known as the Myakka Skunk-Ape photos and bear a striking resemblance to an Orangutan. In addition, almost all Florida sightings have been accompanied by a strong odor, thus the name Skunk Ape, as opposed to less than one in fifty of all Bigfoot photos in North America. Wolf Henner Fahrenbach, Ph.D., retired researcher from the Oregon National Primate Center explains, "If we are to assume Sasquatch invaded the North American continent in the same time frame as modern man, then one can assume from that alone that we are dealing with only one species, as not enough time has elapsed or the conditions have existed for speciation beyond perhaps some racial differences. Variability among Sasquatches is known to be high, presumably as a function of relatively low reproductive rate and relatively high infant survival."

In our search of evidence, we decided to begin our search exploring historical legends among native Americans under the assumption if Bigfoot should be real there might be credible accounts in native American mythology. Dr. Fahrenbach forwarded us a remarkable list of over 60 Bigfoot/Sasquatch names known to Native Americans.

Rational reasoning begins to provide evidence in and by itself. It is improbable that a series of random hoaxes or legend could have evolved into the dialect of over 50 tribes spread throughout the North America continent. You don't have to be a genius to understand if Bigfoot were in fact a myth the name would be evident in perhaps several dialects at best, but 50? Even for today's mass media this would be an accomplishment of massive proportion. Likewise, Yeti's which have been documented in such areas as Nepal have shown similar characteristics and features as Sasquatch. This has occurred across the globe, on opposite sides of earth, and in a day when there was no travel or communication between these portions of the earth.

In North America, we are most familiar with the native name Sasquatch. Yet this name is only one derivative of numerous names. It appears that, overtime, each tribe assigned an individual name for something they witnessed independently. Below we have presented the various Native American names collected by Henry Franzoni of Oregon.

Native Names for Bigfoot Across North America

Alaska and Canada

Neginla-eh - (Alutiiq Indian/Yukon Indian) - "Wood Man"
Nantiinaq - (Native Americans from the Kenai Peninsula) - Alaska
Nant'ina - (Dena'ina Athabascan Indian) - Alaska
Urayuli - (South West Alaskan Eskimo) - Alaska
Get'qun - (Lake Iliamna Athabascan Indian) - Alaska
Kushtaka - (Southeastern Alaskan Tlingit Indian) - Alaska
Dzonoqua/Tsonaqua - (Kwakwaka'wakw Indian) "Wild Woman of the Woods"
Bukwas - (Kwakwaka'wakw Indian)- "Wild Man of the Woods."
A-hoo-la-huk - (Bristol Bay Yup'ik Indian) - Alaska
The Hairy Man - (Alaskan Athabascan Indian) - Alaska
Big Figure - (Kwakwaka'wakw Indian) [formerly the Kwakiutl]
Gilyuk - (Nelchina Plateau, south of Tyone Lake) - "Big man w/ little hat" - Alaska
Guugiit (Haidah) "Wildman that lives in the woods" Alaska- Prince of Wales
Egeiaks - Alaska

Boqs - Bella Coola Indian
Snanaik - Bella Coola Indian
Goo-tee-khl - Tinglit/Chilkat Indian
See'atco/Kauget - (Coast Salish Indian) - "One who runs and hides"

Sacsquec, Saskehavas, Sasquatch - (Sto:lo Indian) [Coast Salish inhabiting the upper Fraser Valley around Harrison Hot Springs, Hope, and Agassiz, Katzie (Port Hammond), Musqueam (N. Fork of Fraser River), Cowichan and Nanaimo (Vancouver Island)] -British Columbia.

Bushmen - (The Hare Indians) - Canada
Rugaru - (Turtle Mountain Ojibway Indian)
Windago - (Eastern Athabascan Indian)
Kitchi-sabe` (Manitoba) "The great giant or great-footed one"

Washington

Kala'litabiqw - Skagit Valley, Washington
Stick-Shower or Stick Indians - (Yakama/Klickitat/Puyallup/Puget-
Sound/Colville)
Skookum or Skoocoom - (Chinook Indian) - "Evil God of the Woods"
At'at'ahila - (Chinookan Indian)
Yi' dyi' tay - (Nehalem/Tillamook Indian) - "Wild Man"
Xi'lgo - (Nehalem/Tillamook Indian) - "Wild Woman"
Tsiatko - (Puyallup/Nisqually Indian)
Steta'l, Steetathl, Stik - (Puyallup/Nisqually Indian), Puget, Twana (Hood Canal), Quinault (Olympics)
Zamakwas - Lummi (Boundary Bay to Anacortes), Saanich (Straits of Juan de Fuca)
Seahtik or Selatik or Seeahtkoh - (Clallam Indian)
Seat-ka - (Yakama Indian)
Ste-ye-hah-[mah] - (Yakama Indian) - "Spirit hidden under the
cover of the woods", Umatilla, Sahaptin, Molalla
Shadow Indians - (Yakama Indian)
Tah-tah-kle'-ah - (Yakama/Shasta Indian) - "Owl Woman Monster"
Qui-yihahs - (Yakama/Klickitat Indian) - "The five brothers"
Qah-lin-me - (Yakama/Klickitat Indian)
Sne-nah - (Okanogan Indian) - "Owl Women"

California

Omah, Oh-mah-'ah - (Yurok, Klamath)
Olayome - Native Americans near Clear Lake California


Plains Indians

Wetiko - (Cree Indian)
Chiye-tanka - (Lakota [western] Sioux Indian) - "big elder brother"
Chiha-tanka - (Dakota [eastern] Sioux Indian) - "big elder brother"
The Big Man - (Oglala Lakota Sioux Indian)
Ot-ne-yar-heh/Stonish Giants - Iroquois Indian
Yahyahaas - Modoc Indians
The Stone Giants/Stone Coats/Ge-no-sqwa - Seneca Indian
Miitiipi - Kawaiisu Indian
Tso-apittse - Shoshone Indian
T'oylona - Taos Indian - "person big"
Atahsaia - Zuni Indian
Big Hairy Man - (Hopi Indian)
Yanahlgloshi's - Navajo
So'yoko - Hopi Indian
Loo-poo-oi'yes - Miwuk Indian
Stone Giants - Iroquois (now known as the Haudenosaunee)
Chenoo - Abnaki, Passamaquoddy and Micmac
Atshen, Atcen - Montagnai-Naskapi and Tete-de-Boule (Cree)
Stone Giants or Dzoavits - Shoshoni
Witiko, Windigo, Wendigo - Many Algonkian Nations
Spirit/Spirit of the Woods - (Many Native American Indian Tribes)
Free-man - (Various Modern Native American Indian Tribes)

In our quest for an answer to the mystery we must turn to science for evidence, since there are no actual remains or live captured specimens to conclusively prove Sasquatch exists. W. Henner Fahrenbach, Ph.D., studied the dimensions of 706 foot print casts collected over western North America over a 40 year period. A comprehensive report of his findings can be found HERE

Dr. Fahrenbach subjected data to scaling laws appropriate to primates and mammals to yield height, weight, plantar pressure, gait, speed, and more from foot length. His study provided some of the hardest evidence in support of a thriving population Ken Yielding a mean foot length of 15.6 inches. The mean length showed little deviation over years. More remarkable yet, the entire population of prints generated a near perfect bell curve providing compelling evidence to suggest a cryptic species does exist. Not only did foot length yield a bell curve, but so did heel and ball width, which corresponded to length. If a series of fabrications had, in fact been carried out over forty years it would generate a distribution with many peaks rather than a bell curve.

By contrast to modern humans, an American adult male foot has a mean length of 10.4 inches and a female of 9.5 inches. The mere collection, totaling 706 different sets of foot prints over 40 years, suggests a population in the thousands. Most experts agree the North American population ranges between 2,000 and 10,000 animals.

Dr. Fahrenbach went on to explore the overall foot width from a sample of 438 sets of prints, discovering a mean of 7.2 inches and a standard deviation of 1.69 inches. The results of his study showed foot width increased more slowly than length, which is also common in humans. Almost the entire set of population of prints had a greater width index than a human foot print. He also noticed both human and Sasquatch prints get narrower with a greater length.

From a smaller sample of 123 prints, he discovered the animal possessed a heel width with a mean of 4.38 inches. One fundamental difference appears to be that Sasquatch rely less on the heel plant while walking bearing its weight on the broad anterior portion of the foot, which more evenly distributes its weight over the entire sole in the absence of an arch. This would supply more support for their massive weight. Many documented reports and witness accounts have reported a slapping noise while walking indicating the lack of a motion rolling forward as in human movement.

Recently, the BFRO asked Jimmy Chilcutt, Latent Fingerprint Examiner, with the Conroe Police Department in Texas, to examine approximately 100 sets of Bigfoot castings taken across North America over the last 20 years. Chilcutt is considered an expert in primate finger printing and has prints on every known primate. He explained dermal lines in Bigfoot run vertical, while those of man are horizontal, and apes are slanted. In addition, Chilcutt found the dermal ridges of Sasquatch to be about twice the thickness of humans. He also noticed many prints showed variations in the splay of toes within the same set of prints, which could not be replicated if someone strapped on plaster molds to the bottom of their feet. In his quest for the truth, Chilcutt found scarring, which would cause the dermal ridges to curve inward. He finally concluded the sets of foot prints examined were authentic and that North America had a new primate unknown to science.

Chilcutt isn't the only finger print expert to have studied prints. Doug Monsoon of the Lakewood, Colorado, police department crime lab has had over 28 years in law enforcement and after studying prints also concluded the prints he examined were authentic. He explained how credibility was paramount to his career and the last thing he wanted was to hang out on a limb.

In addition to the dermal ridges, foot prints are often found depressed so far into the ground that it would be impossible for a human to create the same weight. For example Dr. Grover S. Krantz, physical anthropology professor at WSU, measured prints up to 18 inches in length from heel to toe and seven inches across at the ball and state a person would have to be eight feet tall and weigh 750 pounds to recreate the prints. In addition, he would have to wear a size 28 shoe.

Perhaps one of the most conclusive pieces of evidence is the famous 400 lb plaster Skookum Cast found in Washington in 2000. It consists of an alleged Sasquatch lower torso including a forearm, an enormous thigh, buttock, and a striking heel implant along with both dermal ridges and an print of a Achilles tendon consistent with a large primate believed not to exist. It is believed one of the animals made the imprint in the mud, while eating berries. Dr. Jeff Meldrum, Anthropologist and expert in primate locomotion at Idaho State University, examined the prints along with other experts from around the country, including Dr. Darren Swindler at Washington State University, and concluded that the tendon and heel imprint in the cast were made by a large primate.

Another historical piece of evidence (tracks) occurred in 1969 near the town of Bossburg, in northeastern Washington's Colville National Forest. What made the tracks so important was a crippling deformity found in the right foot a type of acquired or congenital clubfoot. The right imprint only had four toes. The middle toe is either missing or raised above the other four. More convincing is the deformity, which is bent radically inward from the heel. Dr. Meldrum identified the deformity as Metatarsus Adductus, a condition of pes cavus. Most startling was that the prints were found to have anatomical accuracy matching the condition. Dr. Krantz calculated the natural adaptations in stride necessary to enable a heavy animal with the deformity to walk was right on. Dr. Meldrum found the compliant gait found in the prints reduced peak ground reaction forces, while avoiding the concentration of weight over the heel and ball increasing the period of double support on the opposite foot.

In his statistical analysis, Dr. Fahrenbach examined a database of over 89 accounts whereby foot prints were measured along with visual estimations of height. His results determined a mean imprint of 16.6 inches corresponds to a height of 8' 1 inch. After applying a scaling formula he was able to determine a 24" footprint indicates a height of 9 feet 5 inches.

He later created a step file after examining 297 records. The step length for the mean foot length of 15.6 inches turned out to be 5.0' even. Since transition from walking to running occurs at around 150% of the normal step length in man, this would indicate a walking-to-running transition in the Sasquatch of about 14 mph. The world record walking speed for humans is around 11 mph, while the top running speed is 27 mph and the longest single jump is 30', all obviously smaller in scale.

In a comprehensive analysis of the film recorded by famous Sasquatch hunters Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin on Oct 20, 1967, at Bluff Creek in northern California (widely regarded as the best film footage of Bigfoot), the BFRO applied bio-mechanical engineering and computer models to ascertain the gate of the animal in the footage. Dr. Fahrenbach calculated The Patterson video showed a rate of 85 steps per minute, which would be very uncomfortable for a human. Andrew Nelson at the Center for Motion Analysis and Bio-Mechanics recreated the stride of the animal in the Patterson film by building a 3-D virtual model of the skeleton incorporating motion track analysis. The research concluded the stride would have been difficult to carry out by a man and was consistent with the upright gait associated with an early stage of evolution. Dr. Fahrenbach explained, "its gait is a bent-knee, complaint gait and its foot has a metatarsal hinge, features that point to an early evolutionary stage of upright gait, one that might have evolved parallel and independently of man."

Perhaps even more compelling was the scientific examination of an obvious bulge in one of its legs indicating a rupture in the animal's quadriceps as first indicated by Dr. Meldrum. This was later ruled to be completely impossible to carry out with Bio-Mechanics at the time of the video.

In his studies, Dr. Fahrenbach provided an overall analysis of height, chest size, and weight based on foot length using scaling methods based on video, witness observation, and corresponding size of known primates.

FOOT HEIGHT CHEST WEIGHT
12" 7'0" 58" 488 lbs
15.6" 7'10" 65" 658 lbs
20" 8'8" 72" 854 lbs
24" 9'5" 77" 1,038 lbs

By applying scaling, Dr. Fahrenbach estimated the Bigfoot brain size up to 770 cc compared to that of a mountain Gorilla averaging 532 cc.

The smallest walking foot prints recorded ranged 4 to 5 inches, which is the same size of human foot at one year. From print casts it is presumed the mother is most likely the exclusive companion of a juvenile during the first few years. Dr. Fahrenbach suggested a juvenile animal eight years of age would have a height of approximately 6 feet. Most infants between 3 and 4 feet have been seen with their mother, but in rare cases have also been seen by themselves.

The BFRO records no female with a small nursing infant has ever been observed. Yet they suggest the older sibling will often stay with the mother until ten years of age. Females reach sexual maturity at about nine years of age or at about six feet in height. Through scaling, the average Sasquatch is estimated to have a life span of 36 years.

To date, it has been presumed all DNA testing on stool, saliva, and hair specimens have come up inconclusive due to their near identical human qualities. Science can perform testing on either nuclear or mitochondrial DNA to determine how close between human and great ape this range falls. Dr. Fahrenbach has collected hair specimens from various states and told The Royal Forum, "Hair color ranges a full spectrum of human natural colors, other than perhaps light blonde. But about 60% is very dark brown to black, the rest red, brown, gray, and quite white on occasion. I have about two dozen hair samples from various states. All of them are congruent in internal microscopic structure, but differing in color and length. They generally are devoid of medulla, the cellular core of the hair, something that also is found in some human hairs and hence, does not allow for an absolute identification. DNA analysis has been attempted several times with negative results. In any case, the hair is not similar to orangutan, gorilla, or chimp hair."

Meanwhile, Ray Crowe, Director of the International Bigfoot Society commented, "Analysis from two different sources in Tennessee and North Carolina have been collected. I have sent a sample to France myself and should have results in October. All signs are that the creature is human. Early DNA results were discarded as it was thought that contamination was evident. This has not been the case though. They are very close to human."

Sasquatches are tall, averaging eight feet in height, usually have dark eyes, walk upright on two legs, are extremely muscular, and have a combination of facial features similar to both a human and ape, with a wide, human like nose. They have a slanted head, which has a pronounced cone shaped top, and pronounced forward eye-brows. Remarkably, females are noted as having breasts. Ears often cannot be seen as they are beneath the hair, are small and close to head. Skin on their faces, hands, and feet have been reported as distinctively human like in appearance, yet dark and leathery. They have no visible necks, jutted chins, and have extremely long arms said to fall below the knees. In rare instances, both juveniles and adults have been seen on all fours. When ascending dense slopes they frequently pull themselves up on trees with their arms. Likewise, they have been witnessed in sitting, squatting, or lying positions and often have worn areas in their coats from such activities. According to witness accounts the animals are sometimes so tall they step over fences in a single stride.

There is much evidence to suggest the animals are nocturnal. Sightings occur about 1,500 times more at night than statistics of an even day/night distribution would predict. Strangely, flashlights appear to make them retreat more so than even being fired at by guns.

Reports indicate that, when approached at close range Sasquatch commonly emit a terrible odor. Hundreds of accounts have reported a smell similar to rotting flesh, ammonia, or sulfur; strong enough to make the eye water. This is often described as a smell unlike anything people have experienced before. Only about one in fifty reports mention it, but are so often reported in Florida that locals report to them as Skunk Apes.

Although still considered a right wing view, a book called, "The Scars of Evolution" by Elaine Morgan in 1994 presented a theory that humans may have descended from a water environment between three and seven million years ago around the North-east African Red Sea, where bipedalism is believed to have first formed. Around this time frame, the area evolved into a small island and Morgan theorized the anthropoid fed at sea developing an upright gait.

In rare instances, some primates have been found swimming. For example, the swimming Snow Monkey and the Proboscis, which lives in mangrove trees in the swamps of Borneo have been documented swimming for miles and walking upright in shallow water.

It has been proven there are eighteen similarities between modern man and Oreopithecus (about ten million years old), called swamp ape, because so many of their bones laid in mud in large numbers, including the possibility they were bipedal.

Unlike other primates, they are powerful swimmers. On occasion they are seen on the British Columbia coast and there have been direct observations of the animals under water doing a frog kick. From The Royal Forum's investigation into BFRO database of reports in the central United States it would appear the creatures might pursue or prefer using stream-ways and rivers as possible means of travel or hunting. In addition, it appears the creatures prefer swamps and wetlands. Although some reports have occurred near mines, caves, and rock quarries it is presumed they do not use them very often as there is typically only one entrance.

BFRO investigators believe Sasquatch constructs temporary shelters referred to as nests out of sticks and other foliage. Teepee designs are sometimes evident and more elaborate shelters, made of partial roofs from broken or twisted tree limbs, have been found. Often the bottoms are scattered with available vegetation such as moss, ferns, bear grass, soft evergreen, and dead leaves to cushion the flooring. Once discovered these shelters are abandoned. Eric Altman of the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society reports they have not found any nests in the state despite numerous sightings, yet reported, "Our group discovered an area where a large animal (unknown) bedded down in some very tall weeds. The area measured 32 feet long by 17 feet wide."

Altman went onto to say, "Many researchers speculate they reside in caves or in remote parts of the forest." In a later interview, Ray Crowe with the International Bigfoot Society stated a few reports have indicated the remains of dead animal near caves. He told The Royal Forum, "For a long time I thought caves would not present a suitable habitat as they are cool, wet, and dark. But more recently, I am convinced I was wrong, with the presumed occupation of lava tubes in Idaho. In another case, a lava tube by Mt. St. Helens was found to have several lizards skewered on sticks and left to dry." Lava tubes are often very long caves featuring multiple or scattered openings that offer escape routes and potential sources of water.

They appear to be territorial bending limbs to mark their territory. Often when encounters happen they are reported to scare people out of their territory by howling, tree shaking, pushing trees over, or repeatedly breaking large sticks, while sometimes following people running alongside them. Occasionally chest thumping has been reported although never seen. Most of this behavior is also found in great apes.

As far as tool use, Sasquatch use branches and rocks to hit tree trunks to mark territory or possibly to indicate position while hunting in groups. Some reports have indicated they use sticks to kill birds or mammals. Other times they have been reported using sticks to dig small animals out of the ground.

Sasquatch are presumed to be omnivorous occasionally feeding on meat. Their droppings contain the remains of roots, berries, elk, deer, and various small animals. In a study of sixty-four reports of Sasquatch carrying or eating food, thirty-two reports mention types of meat, twenty-six mention vegetables, and one mentions salt. Individual items mentioned reports include deer, berries, fish, roots, sheep, cattle, corn, rabbits, garbage, clams, rodents, leaves, water plants, oranges, grubs, and apples. When raiding fields they often leave piles of half eaten melons or corn in nearby woods. Occasionally they have been known to make off with calves, goats, dogs, and on occasion break into chicken coops or rabbit hutches. They are thought to return gifts in exchange for food such as stacked rocks, kittens, or small animals.

The caloric consumption of Sasquatch has been estimated to be 5,000 calories per day. With exercise or in late fall, this could double or triple as animals store up fat for winter. It is presumed is more omnivorous until fall when the animals presumably eat more meat for calorie intake especially during winter. It has been estimated they might have to travel a range as wide as 100 miles to support this calorie intake. Yet when abundant supplies of food are available such as crops or livestock the animals may not have a need to travel as far.

Eye-witness reports have indicated they tend to hunt White Tailed Deer, Mule Deer, and Elk by breaking the front legs, twisting the necks, and crushing the heads. In hunting deer they have been observed hunting in packs, while making knocking noises against trees to perhaps mark position. In Ohio they have been known to selectively harvest livers of white tailed deer, stacking the carcasses in piles. It is presumed the organs have been selectively sought for its extremely high nutrient content and fat. A study of sightings over years indicated an equal number of skinny verses fat Sasquatch are seen throughout the year and thus it is assumed they do not store up a tremendous amount of fat for winter.

Generally, the animals move in silence; however they seem to rely on loud vocalizations more than other primates perhaps due to low populations. Vocal analysis at Texas A&M University concluded the vocalizations studied where in fact that of an unidentified primate, yet this also included humans as a possibility. According to the BFRO they are capable of making a variety of sounds such as howls, moaning, deep growls, roars, and screams that almost have a human quality. In documented cases in the Midwest they have been described giving off sounds that begin like a monkey and eventually turn into a loud howl, which has been identified to be similar to large bird. Other times they have been heard giggling, laughing, and even crying.

According to Professor Sapunov, human evolution evolved in to distinct directions - biological and social-biological. Bigfoot became the fruit of the first branch while Homo sapiens became the fruit of the second branch.

Most scientists, such as Loren Coleman, suggest Bigfoot could be a version of Pongids (great apes) such as the Dryopithecinae, a species that was successful in both temperate and subtropical areas. In her book Mysterious America Coleman suggested the could have arrived from Asia during the Pleistocene era.

Meanwhile, other supporters in support of the Pongids theory suggest the possibility of Gigantopithecus Blacki, from southeast Asia, thought to have gone extinct about 300 to 400,000 years ago. The general consensus is that this species was a vegetarian ape 9 to 12 ft. tall weighting 600 to 1200 lbs, which is consistent in size with reports of Sasquatch. Unfortunately most skeletal remains of this ape have been destroyed, yet many fossilized teeth are in existence.

Some scientists such as George Karras feel the creatures are Hominid, such as members of Australpithecus, who possessed long arms and walked on two legs. Around 600 such skeletal remains have been uncovered in Sterkfontein Caves in South Africa and dated to around 3.5 million years in age.

Meanwhile, there are a few who have argued Bigfoot is a branch of Neanderthals, who was supposedly exterminated by Cro-Magnon man such as Dr. Myra L. Shackley, a professor of Archaeology at Leicester University who wrote "The Case for Neanderthal Survival: Fact or Fiction?" published in Antiquity 56:31, 1982. Dr. Fahrenbach is one who disagrees with this theory suggesting in a statement to The Royal Forum, "The creature has no culture, tool use, fire, or compelling evidence of abstract language, all characteristics that by definition are required to be elevated into level of Homo, be it neanderthalensis or sapiens." He went on to state, "rock throwing and pounding on logs are rather common among Sasquatch." These traits are also shared by primates.

Later, Professor Sapunov told The Royal Forum, "The position confirmed by the Academy of Sciences of USSR and its successor, The Russian Academy of Sciences was following: Bigfoot is degenerative branch of late Neanderthal man, survived to modern time. Its leadership include such well-known scientists as Professor S.Obruchev, Professor K.Stanyukovich, Professor B.Porshnev."

Recent tests from the upper arm bone of a Neanderthal skeleton found in 1857 presented in a study of 378 base pairs of mitochondrial DNA showed 27 differences between modern man and Neanderthal DNA compared to the typical variation of eight between modern humans. One difference is that Neanderthals had larger brains.

Although there is no evidence in the fossil record, scientist presume vocalization Neanderthals had a hyoid bone identical to humans, however air pockets in their respiratory tract minimized their ability to vocalize. Neanderthal noses were jutted outward and had large nasal cavities.

Their size was comparatively smaller than humans standing about 5 feet 3 inches for females, with barrel chested torsos and short legs. Their physical strength was greater due to their lifestyle of hunting and gathering. We cannot determine their skin pigmentation or body covering (hair). Notably their feet also were broader due to their stockier build. Their fingers were somewhat similar to Homo sapiens with working thumbs.

In our search of evidence, we asked Eric Altman, "Do you think there is any possibility they could be more intelligent than what we give them credit?" Altman replied, "Researchers know very little about these animals and are just now starting to understand a little bit about them through the evidence that has been collected. Most of what we know is from witness reports and sightings."

Such a theory might hold weight in association with two Indian legends, which geographically seem to validate the theory due to the sheer number of Sasquatch sightings within these regions. We know from the BFRO reports the majority of sighting occur in the Pacific Northwest in Northern California, Oregon, and Washington, while the second pocket of sightings appear to occur in the Ohio/Pennsylvania region. When you think of secluded places for something to hide the forests of Northwest makes sense. However, when you have two close neighboring states and one is mountainous and the other is largely farmland you have to question why there are so many sightings in Ohio? The Royal Forum presented this question to Eric Altman who stated, "There are a large number of field researchers and organizations in Ohio." Meanwhile, Dr. Fahrenbach elaborated, " Ohio has had an active group of Sasquatch researchers for a long time, who presumably not only collect, research and follow up reports, but also publish them. So you get a skewed impression of Sasquatch reports. Since I suspect that there are about 5-10 unreported sightings for every reported one, the true distribution might be quite different."

There are stories of two tribes of giants believed to have been eradicated by Indians. These native legends seem to fit the profile with suggestive detail, and geographic accuracy. In Northern California it has been suggested that the Washoe and The Paiutes of Walker Lake region assisted in eradicating a tribe of giants, described as hair covered and of lower intelligence, on the Eastern slopes of the Sierra's.

Yet another Indian legend, reported by David Cusic, a Tuscorora by birth, recalls that an ancient tribe of giants once existed in Ohio called the Ronnongwetowanca, who had a considerable habitation. The Adena, known as the mound builders, seem to have arrived in the Ohio Valley around 1,000 BC. According to legend, after enduring attacks from the Ronnongwetowanca the Adena banded together in a force of 800 killing off the Ronnongwetownca altogether. The questions we pose for additional thought. Could this story have been carried down nearly 2,000 years? How accurate would such an account be in time frame? Dr. Fahrenbach told The Royal Forum, "Such oral traditions change in the course of time and have at best some general suggestive content, but the details would be dubious." What we know about these stories is that over time as they are passed on details are either changed or forgotten altogether. Is it possible the natives lost some important information in the story such as hair covered men with ape like features? Would it be likely Indians would associate apes with human like traits, calling them men altogether? Could some of the remnants of this population have survived?

In 1846 Joseph Henry, first secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, estimated there were ten thousand mounds constructed by the Adena in Ohio alone. These mounds were constructed to bury the dead. Today less than 500 mounds exist in a reconstructed form.

There appears to be little or no proof the following accounts took place, besides what has been published in various news papers, magazines, and journals over the years, however these accounts might warrant further archeological investigation. It seems ironic that one of the largest complaints in science has always been where is the scientific evidence? Yet, it might appear the most conclusive proof has been uncovered, but not identified.

For if the account of the Ronnongwetownca has any truth behind the story there might be a very real biological link to Sasquatch, which could perhaps be identified through DNA or other related tests.

The Royal Forum discovered the following accounts, which appeared to validate the legend, whereby human remains of massive proportion have been reportedly unearthed. It is important to note that those doing the excavations where most likely not scientists who would naturally identify the difference between a Neanderthal like skull and a Homo sapien. In some cases papers have reported these remains where sent to institutions, but have turned up missing. Regardless, there appears to be no signs of significant proof many of the following skeletal remains have actually been uncovered. Many might ask so why report them? It is of our opinion to report facts and inspire ideas for study of further examination. Quite simply what we have are many reports with little or no supportive evidence the events took place.

In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, John Haywood wrote in 1821 that a fortification containing skeletons at least seven feet in height had been unearthed.

In 1829, a large skeleton was unearthed from a mound in Chesterville during the construction of a hotel. The local examination of the skull stated the skull could easily fit over a man's head. The skull also possessed an additional row of teeth.

In Wisconsin, during the mid 1850s Dr. J.N. DeHart presumably found vertebrae of what he classified as "larger than those of the present type."

In 1872, three skeletons were found in Seneca Township, Noble County, Ohio, in what is now called 'Bates' Mound. All three skeletons were measured and found to be over eight feet tall and proportional in bone structure. In addition, the skeletons all had double rows of teeth.

Again another individual W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones of large size in mounds around Kansas City in 1877.

Later, in Ashtabula County, Ohio in 1878, more skeletons were excavated on land belonging to Peleg Sweet. In the first mound, they unearthed a very large skull and jaw. Excavating further, they discovered an estimated two and three thousand graves disposed in straight rows. Some of the skeletal remains were reported to of "large size" and blackened with time soon crumbled to dust.

The Indianapolis News reported Nov. 10, 1975 that a 9 foot, 8 inch skeleton was excavated from a nearby mound in Berwerville, Indiana in 1879.

Meanwhile, another report in the St. Paul Pioneer Press, May 23rd 1883 reported 10 skeletons of gigantic size were removed from a mound. The remains included both sexes.

In The History of Brown County, Ohio published in 1883, there is an account of three skeletons reportedly found at the mouth of the Paw Paw Creek when men digging for a bridge foundation found the bones at the lower end of old buffalo wallow. When the skeletons were exposed to the weather for a few days, their bones turned black and began to crumble. The Squire of Satterfield had them buried in the Joliffe graveyard (Rivesville). All these skeletons found to be about eight feet long.

The Scientific American, in 1883, published an article stating two miles from Mandan, on the bluffs near the junction of the Hart and Missouri Rivers is 100 acre cemetery filled with bones of a giant race. The local paper, The Pioneer stated the ground has the appearance of trenches piled full of dead bodies covered with several feet of earth. In many places mounds were discovered to be between 8 and 10 feet high. Some of them were 100 feet or more in length.

Again the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported June 29th, 1888 the discovery of seven skeletons seven to eight feet tall in Minnesota.

Ironton Register, a small Ohio River town newspaper, dated 5 May 1892 stated where Proctorville now stands a few mounds were found. One near the C. Wilgus mansion contained a very large skeleton. The skull was found to have double rows of teeth and was reported to again be of size to fit over a man's head. Skeletons were found at a depth of 6 ft. and near a boulder stone pavement.

In the Chicago Record dated Oct. 24th, 1895 there was a another report by Ton G. Dobbins that another mound near Toledo, Ohio harvested 20 skeletons with jaws and teeth reported to be twice the size of normal dental features.

What we know about some of these reports is that remains were sent to various institutions and subsequently disappeared. One such skeleton was reportedly on display at Mark Twain museum in Virginia City, NV, and had a wisp of red hair still attached. Indians have since repatriated it and has most likely been reburied in some Indian graveyard in an unmarked grave.

Some scientists have discounted the remains are associated with Pituitary Gigantism. The tallest man, Robert Wadlow, had Pituitary Gigantism and grew to be an astonishing 8' 11 inches. Gigantism is an excessive secretion of growth hormone during childhood before the closure of the bone growth plates, which causes over growth of the long bones and very tall stature. The odds of having the disease are 3 in 1 million.

If the newspaper accounts are ever found to have any basis of truth, statistically archeologists would have to of unearthed at minimum millions graves to account for this population. On the flip side, if these reports were in fact hoaxes, numerous publications including journals and newspapers would have to of been involved in either exaggerating accounts or printing information in absence of a follow-up investigation. Under the analysis of these accounts, The Royal Forum asked Dr. Fahrenbach about these reports. He replied, "I am familiar with a variety of reports of giant skeletons found here and there, but all that always seems to happen without the interaction of somebody who knows exactly what to do with such material. I only hope that such material will get into the right hands one of these days and is not shunted aside with a casual comment about "tall Indians". In any case, It is always worthwhile to remain cognizant of what might be waiting for a discoverer out there and be mentally prepared to take appropriate action." Should this alone not warrant cause for further investigation?

Professor Porshnev of Russia along with Dr. Myra L. Shackley, Professor of Archaelogy at Leiscester University believe pockets of Neanderthals might be still thriving in Mongolia. A possible variant of Bigfoot, this grouping considered the Almas, reside in the Altai Mountains along the Russian border of Mongolia. The underlined difference is the apparent size of the Almas, which are said to be approximately 5ft. in height. Some have suggested Almas could even be Mesolithic hunters that have survived extinction. The Mesolithic people were modern humans who were hunter/gathers after the Ice Age (between 8500 and 4000 BC). They possessed some physical variations such as flatter faces, prominent cheek bones, and less prominent noses.

A report of an Alma being killed occurred in 1937, during a clash between the Japanese and a Russian reconnaissance unit in Mongolia. The Russian unit spotted two figures coming down a hill toward them and shot them when they did not respond. The next morning the recon unit examined the bodies discovering they were an unusual anthropoid ape about the size of a man and covered with long red hair. Due to the war, the bodies could not be returned to Moscow for an evaluation.

Perhaps the most important accounts ever involved Alma. It was discovered that an Alma (known as Abnauayu by natives) was reportedly captured residing in an village called T’khina lying on the Mokva River (Latitude 42º 51’ 50" N, Longitude 41º 33’ 08"E) roughly 50 miles from Sokhumi (city of 112,000 people) in the mid 1800s. The village lay in the Ochamchiri District of Abkhazia. Some reports indicate the Alma captured later named Zana occurred on accident, while others report she was captured by hunters. The ruling prince D.M.Achba, titular head of the Zaadan region, came into possession of her. She was then passed onto one of his vassals, named Chelokua. Ultimately he presented her to a nobleman, Edgi Genaba, who visited the area. He then took her back to his village in T'khina.

Villagers reported Zana as having black skin pigmentation, a reddish/black hair covering her body. The hair on her head was thick and hung like a mane down her back. She possessed a broad body structure, large hands, toes that would splay outwards, high cheekbones, a flat nose, a muzzle jaw, and sloped forehead. From reports we know she disliked clothing and preferred to be naked. She preferred cold areas and sleeping outdoors and dug holes to sleep in. She reportedly climbed trees to get fruit, cracked walnuts with her bare hands, and ate about anything villagers prepared for her. Zana never learned the native language (Abkhaz) and was aggressive during the first three years.

Zana was witnessed spending a considerable amount of time cooling off in pools beside buffalo and at night used to roam the hills surrounding the village. In reports she wielded large sticks against dogs and had a curious obsession for playing with stones, knocking one against another and splitting them. It was reported she took swims year round, and preferred to be naked even in winter, tearing dresses.

Edgi Genaba taught Zana to grind grain for flour, bring home firewood and water, or sacks to and from the local water-mill, and even pull boots off.

The credibility of this report demands attention for several reasons. First, scientist have discovered fossil evidence of both Neanderthal and Homo Erectus residing in the area where Zana lived. Secondly, Zana possessed almost all identical traits to Neanderthals. Third, the geography of the region (Georgia) is mountainous and sparsely populated, especially along the edges of the Russian border.

Those who remembered Zana reported Edgi Genaba kept her in an enclosure approximately three years with little human contact. Reports indicated she was thrown food and dug holes to sleep in. Eventually she grew calm around humans and was given freedom to roam the countryside. It is reported she enjoyed wine and became pregnant six times by different men of the village. Only four of the offspring survived with the help of the village. The children apparently had modestly different physical features and grew up as fully functional living in the village. The children where Dzhanda (born in1878), Kodzhanar (born 1880), Gamasa Sabekia (born 1882), and Khwit Sabekia (unkown). Her offspring are now scattered throughout the region. Zana died in the late 1800s.

For a successful crossbreeding to occur the chromosomes in place must match each other. If one species has recessive genes then the traits may show up in the offspring or skip generations. If in fact, Zana was a Neanderthal her traits were then recessive and therefore did not pass to her children. Science has concluded in most cases of interspecies mating the offspring become sterile or cannot reproduce. This is a statistical probability, yet there are some recorded instances of reproduction in hybrids among primates.

Many scientists consider Neanderthal a sub-species of man, thus the name Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. This can explain how Zana’s children reproduced. The chances of a successful hybrid between these would be significantly better than between different species altogether.

Both her sons, Gamasa and Khwit were both powerfully built and possessed dark pigmented skin. Villagers reported that Khwit was difficult to deal with and quick to pick a fight.

In 1954, Professor Boris Porshnev of the Soviet Union visited the mountainous region interviewing a grandson of Zana. A while later, Dr. Myra Shackley also went to the Altai Mountains to look for evidence. Porshnev reported the grandson possessed dark skin and was able to lift up a chair with a grown man resting in it with his jaw. They found bones believed to belong to Gamasa in October 1965 reporting slight paleoanthropic features and decided to exhume the clearly marked grave of Khwit, Zana's younger son.

Two physical anthropologists, M.A.Kolodieva and M.M.Gerasimova, reported in 1987 the skull features were found to be unusually similar to Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man stating:

"The Tkhina skull exhibits an original combination of modem and ancient features ... The facial section of the skull is significantly larger in comparison with the mean Abkhaz type ... All the measurements and indices of the superciliary cranial contour are greater not only than those of the mean Abkhaz series, but also than those of maximum size of some fossil skulls studied (or rather were comparable with the latter). The Tkhina skull approaches closest the Neolithic Vovnigi II skulls of the fossil series..."

Skeptics to the account have suggested Zana might have been a human displaying a single or rare combination of two diseases. One is a mutation lacking the gene responsible for producing myostatin, a naturally occurring protein that blocks muscle growth, muscle mass can grow extremely large resulting in a stocky build. Another possibility considered was a disease called hypertrichosis, which causes excessive hair growth on the body. Various people have suffered from this disease have been reported to look like "dogmen" or "apemen". However to have these features alone doesn't explain her behavior or Zana's facial features.

The Royal Forum learned Professor Sapunov examined the skulls of Zana's children ruling the skulls where within Homo sapien tolerances. We questioned whether Russia had considered running DNA tests on the remains to determine if there is perhaps a relationship. Dr. Sapunov responded, " I tried to make DNA analysis of wildman hairs from Pamir in laboratiry of the Petersburg Medical Institute of Hynecology, but failed, because hair root containing DNA was absent."

Another report describing a possible capture occurred in British Columbia. The Colonist Newspaper reported the British Columbia Express Company had sent a regular train from Lytton and in the vicinity of No. 4 tunnel some twenty miles North of Yale, B.C. on July 2nd, 1882 claimed to have brought the train to a stop and captured a hairy ape with human traits, later named

...and those of you criticizing others should conjugate your verbs properly! It detracts from your argument.

Thanks to DTK, LAL, and the Zenors. Always look forward to threads with this type of discussion.

At the risk of drifting off topic, I just read The Blank SLate by Steven Pinkert. It talks about possible innate pathways in the brain that contribute to behaviors we modern humans find less desirable, but would have been benificial to our survival, and how the theories like the Blank Slate or the Noble Savage are political and religous constructs.

Maybe we haven't had time to evolve as fast as we would like to think.

...or maybe we are de-evolving!

Are you saying Homo erectus wasn't a tool maker? There have been wooden spears associated with them, and possible use of fire. That's pretty sophisticated.

A tantalizing bit of skull suggests H. erectus may have made it to the New World, but it doesn't seem to suggest Sasquatch.

Evolution is a change in the allele frequency of a population over time. It's true there's no direction, but was the last statement meant to be a joke?

Are you aware PubMed has a website? So does the National Academy of Science. The Smithsonian does too (the anthropology section was out of date klast time I looked) and you can read most of the current issue of Nature online. Shall I go on?

That is absolutely without any merit from the point of view of biology. It is utter nonsense. I also don't think it is worth commenting on a group of Native Ameiricans devolving into Sasquatch.(IMO)

It is like saying they are a Myocine ape. It is meaningless but it sounds good unless you can find one that is bipedal.


I would say they are too large. Once they were determined to be relatives of orangutans that should have ended all serious speculation about their relationship to a bipedal hominid. There is so little known about them that their relationship to orangs is probably suspect. In order to suppose that a highly suspect theory such as coevolution of bipedality is a likely theory, you have to discount the obvious 800 pound gorilla in the room which are the homo erectus. There is a tremendous amount of evidence suggesting that at least some are not closer than about 2,000,000 years from us. Some grew to apparent enormous size. They migrated to Asia before significant technology. I don't care about broken rocks called a tool set found in the area. They are highly suspect as Leaky tried to say they also existed in America some 200,000 years ago. They are also suspect because we know that other more "advanced" hominids like heidlebergensis may have created the fire and artifacts associated with them.


It is shortsighted to list long arms as a criteria as an ancestor. Longer arms don't mean that it just raised up from all fours. Large mass requires larger arms as a balance. There are also several other reasons that arms might be long.

Neanderthal is indicated by MtDNA to be about 500,000 years removed from modern humans. Some homo Erectus are up to 2 or 3 million years removed based on guesses from the fossil record. Some say erectus is our ancestor other say ergaster is. There is certainly enough ambiguity to not be so sure that all Asian erectus were technological and human ancestors. In fact it greatly stretches credibility to assert it. Erectus live in the correct place and have been demonstrated to grow to enormous size as indicated by their teeth. It is arrogant to assume that science has any certainty about how technologically advanced they were. Bosei (or robustus) was said to be a tool user and ancestor when first found a few decades ago. They found a tool near it. They later found a larger brained specimen nearby and said that it must be it until they found another one that was thought by many to be our ancestor. The ratio of tools to fossil tool users must be something like one in a million. As long as a tool user lives anywhere near your fossil it will be considered a tool user by the paleontologist that wants to call his fossil a human ancestor.

That would have been L.S.B. Leakey. With nothing else to go on, his Zinj seemed to have been the tool user until Homo habilis, the more likely owner was uncovered. Louis got off on several tangents (the "bolo game", e.g.), but it was 1959. He'd say, "Forget it. It's rubbish."

Australopithecus Boisei and A. robustus are separate species, although both are robust Australopithecines, or, more properly, Paranthropus.

Napier thought A. robustus might be a Sasquatch ancestor.

This guy was generally upright 13 mya:

http://www.primates.com/pierolapithecus/

LAL,

Stuff on websites isn't legitimate...

Getting literal... I see. You know what I meant; there's a lot of bad information on the internet.

Yes, that was a joke I made -- watch so you don't step on a wormy sasquatch. Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

These kinds of references are just rumors… urban legends. Stuff like this gets repeated and thrown up on web sites, and there’s nothing to it. But prove me wrong. Show everyone where these or any really big humanoid bones are described in a scientific journal. I think the standard excuse for not being able to do that is that the scientists bungled it – lost the bones, misplaced them in a museum… perhaps even kept them hidden!
--------------------------------------------------------------

The Royal Forum discovered the following accounts, which appeared to validate the legend, whereby human remains of massive proportion have been reportedly unearthed. It is important to note that those doing the excavations where most likely not scientists who would naturally identify the difference between a Neanderthal like skull and a Homo sapien. In some cases papers have reported these remains where sent to institutions, but have turned up missing. Regardless, there appears to be no signs of significant proof many of the following skeletal remains have actually been uncovered. Many might ask so why report them? It is of our opinion to report facts and inspire ideas for study of further examination. Quite simply what we have are many reports with little or no supportive evidence the events took place.

In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, John Haywood wrote in 1821 that a fortification containing skeletons at least seven feet in height had been unearthed.

In 1829, a large skeleton was unearthed from a mound in Chesterville during the construction of a hotel. The local examination of the skull stated the skull could easily fit over a man's head. The skull also possessed an additional row of teeth.

In Wisconsin, during the mid 1850s Dr. J.N. DeHart presumably found vertebrae of what he classified as "larger than those of the present type."

In 1872, three skeletons were found in Seneca Township, Noble County, Ohio, in what is now called 'Bates' Mound. All three skeletons were measured and found to be over eight feet tall and proportional in bone structure. In addition, the skeletons all had double rows of teeth.

Again another individual W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones of large size in mounds around Kansas City in 1877.

Later, in Ashtabula County, Ohio in 1878, more skeletons were excavated on land belonging to Peleg Sweet. In the first mound, they unearthed a very large skull and jaw. Excavating further, they discovered an estimated two and three thousand graves disposed in straight rows. Some of the skeletal remains were reported to of "large size" and blackened with time soon crumbled to dust.

Cake is a baked mixture of flour, sweetening and leavening agents, a chicken egg, and fat, glazed over with a sucrose concoction. It is true bread is better for you.

Now you're getting me excited :new_thumbsupsmileyanim: Steven Pinker is awesome, Here's a Bio I've read a couple of his books and he is on the forefront of evolutionary psychology. Pinker is one of the folks that really showed that language is an instinct. Not the memory of words, but the ability to form syntax and grammar. I am fully bought in to the concept that behaviors can be inherited and selected via natural selection and sexual selection.

So since this is an evolution thread, let me continue with a hypothesis I've been pondering over for several weeks, as follows.

Hypothesis: Suppose that early humans cohabitated with another hominid that was similar to what we think of as Bigfoot. Suppose that this Bigfoot hominid killed or harrassed early humans. Suppose humans developed an instinct to fear this creature. Then suppose that the bigfoot type creature went extinct, yet humans to this day still have the instinct to fear it.

So if this is true, Bigfoot doesn't necessarily currently exist, but it did in the past. This could explain why there are so many misidentifications. In other words, what if we are programmed genetically to interpret any large hairy moving object as an ancient hominid that no longer exists? What if we are programmed to interpret any large impression in the ground as the footprint of an ancient hominid that no longer exists?

We are born with instincts to fear spiders, snakes and heights, this has been proven. Could there not be some leftover genetic material from thousands of years ago that cause us to fear anything that might be a big hominid?

So my hypothesis is that perhaps just like when I see a leaf flutter by my foot and think it might be a snake or spider, perhaps we actually have an instinct to assign big hairy things moving to an ancient enemy hominid.??

Any thoughts on the "Samurai Chatter?"

--J

As to the above hypothesis....

It's pretty funny that we evolved and now rule the Earth. I don't see a cat and think, baby sabertooth, or "lion in the bushes". I think your hypothesis might have merit, but it would have to be the other way around. BF would see us, relate our presence as one of danger and hide, and or flee, like most sightings.

Yours would depend on all sightings be irrevalent, and that we were scared of this animal to the point of wanting to avoid it, and it hurting our species..and then all of the sudden....us coming out on top and "Sasquatchius" being the bigger and better species, but just dieing off.

About as believeable as them speaking Cherokee (was that MG?). There have been reports of chattering, but a human language? Naw.

Chimps communicate, mostly in gesture, and have different dialects from troup to troup.

This story is told by Sarah Winnemucca in her book. It involves chasing a tribe of bigfoots into Lovelock cave and killing them there. They were said to have red hair, and later, there were skeletons found in the cave (red hair, none-the-less). However, I have personally see the skeletons...they are NA, of average height, and the red hair comes from the minerals in the soil. Likely, NA saw the burials in prehistory and created the legend.

As for the rest of the article, there was a lot of racism in our history. Archaeologists, having been mostly trained in Europe where there are no Native American people, believed all non-European people to be primitive and therefore incapable of building mounds. The giant stories are just an off-shoot of that racism...they MADE-UP stories (or maybe the press did it, who knows) that giant skeletons were found to account for the building of the mounds (the giants were said to be related to the giants of the bible, hence more acceptable than Native Americans <insert eye roll here>). There is zero evidence that any such skeletons were ever found or stored in the Smithsonian or anywhere else. It's just internet lore...

Four species of bipedal hominids once co-existed in Africa, but none were especially Bigfoot-like.

Since evolutions means to change or adapt in order to survive, I am assuming that what is meant here is to go back to an "early version" of that species, correct? If so, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is (and assumes that bigfoot is in the Homo line. First, there is no example of any species de-evolving. Second, without getting technical, evolution is the process that “results in heritable changes in a population, taking many generations to express itself.” If a genetic change was successful in helping a species survive (and hence allowing that gene to be passed on to successive offspring), how would “going back” help (assuming you could)? You’d be less apt to survive and less apt to have offspring to survive as well.

So, for example, if someone where to contend that bigfoot is just Native Americans that de-evolved, there are some fundamental problems. First, has there been enough time for humans to de-evolve (it would take millions of years, right)? How would growing bigger (in weight and height) give a “previous” Homo sapiens sapiens an advantage over the rest of us? There is no evidence that bigfoot uses fire, makes tools, or builds substantial structures, so how could losing those traits help the de-evolved human to survive? This idea just isn't plausible.

P.S. Yes, Homo erectus was a tool-maker....

It has been interestingly argued that humans as they exist today are early in their evolutionary cycle and that evolution is generally detrimental rather than beneficial to a species.

One example is that of a chimp new born and a human newborn. The facial features are much more similar than later in life as the chimp and child mature. In the fetal stages, they are nearly indistinguishable from each other. At birth the faces are both generally round and the nose and mouths are proportionally similar. The author I read, believes that humans today, are physiologically in the infant stages of their evolution compared to what they will one day become. His contention is, that given time, we will look more like apes than we do now if for some reason we are forced through calamity to revert to a more survivalist lifestyle. I'm not agreeing with it, but the essay was interesting.

Dan

[quote name='Hairy Man' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:55 PM' post='344113']
Since evolutions means to change or adapt in order to survive, I am assuming that what is meant here is to go back to an "early version" of that species, correct? If so, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is (and assumes that bigfoot is in the Homo line. First, there is no example of any species de-evolving. Second, without getting technical, evolution is the process that “results in heritable changes in a population, taking many generations to express itself.” If a genetic change was successful in helping a species survive (and hence allowing that gene to be passed on to successive offspring), how would “going back” help (assuming you could)? You’d be less apt to survive and less apt to have offspring to survive as well.

So, for example, if someone where to contend that bigfoot is just Native Americans that de-evolved, there are some fundamental problems. First, has there been enough time for humans to de-evolve (it would take millions of years, right)? How would growing bigger (in weight and height) give a “previous” Homo sapiens sapiens an advantage over the rest of us? There is no evidence that bigfoot uses fire, makes tools, or builds substantial structures, so how could losing those traits help the de-evolved human to survive? This idea just isn't plausible.

----------------------------------

Things can evolve back to an earlier version. There’s no question about it – from big to small and back to big again (and then small again), whatever. And a sasquatch could evolve into a worm like creature. No joke. Modern humans could evolve into something similar to Neanderthals (or worms), or pick whatever prehistoric variation on us you like. Anything, that’s the point; evolution is non-directional. We came from bacteria and we could end up bacteria.

There’s a strong tendency to confuse the evolution of Life on Earth, which did go from simple to complex organisms, with evolution per se, which is as likely to go in the direction of simple and small as it is to complex and big.

In order to say that bigfoot couldn't be a homo erectus because homo erectus had tools you need to establish a few things. The first thing is that all homo erectus had tools. That simply is not the case. There were no tools found in the 1.7 million year old site in Georgia. They were said to be very similar to homo habilis. Habilis was said by scientist at the Smithsonian to be definitely a different species than rudolfensis. Rudolfensis was thought the more likely human ancestor. Simple logic suggests some of the homo erectus in Asia may be more than 2.5 million years removed from us. It also severely reduces the likelihood that habilis made tools as they could have been made by rudolfensis. If a tribe of rudolfensis were making tools, all places that hominids like would have tools nearby. I have seen reports of simple broken rock like scrapers in Georgia but Leaky caused that sort of evidence to lose all credibility (it doesn't deserve credibility (JMO)).

Another thing you would need to establish about erectus to eliminate it as a likely candidate is that no branches formed in the lineage and that all branches maintained the same level of technology. That comes down to wishful thinking because it doesn't make sense by any principles of biology that I am aware of.

Since many high school text books define Homo erectus as the animal that preceded modern humans in the evolutionary tree, I can see why many would say that homo erectus had tools. If anybody says all homo erectus are the same and all had the same technology or even that some of the Asian erectus had tools, I would have to conclude that they don't know what they are talking about. Since the name is used for all Asian hominids and sometimes ergater and even heidlebergensis, it is like saying hominids made tools and therefore bigfoot cannot be a hominid.

A third thing to eliminate erectus as a candidate would require that you believe that you could not lose technology. I think that it is extremely shortsighted to assume that being persecuted and forced into a life in the deep forest wouldn't cause erectus or even more advanced hominids to lose technology if they had it. I am not asserting that erectus didn't have tools. I am saying that all erectus in all times likely didn't. By any logic I know it is foolish to think that all hominids would evolve together technologically. It almost seems to me that people just ignore the obvious facts to maintain giganto as a better candidate. People with religious backgrounds much prefer an ape candidate. Scientist much prefer the thought of studying an ape than the almost reduculous sounding notion that a Homo erectus could be alive. I don't really care how it sounds and I am not really worried about peoples preconcieved notions about what the term Homo erectus means.

How Sasquach-like is this?

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/an...ey/turkana.html

No sagittal crest, humanlike proportions........

I haven't seen homo erectus split into species except for ergaster which seems to be just an earlier form and may have been the ancestor of Asian H. erectus.

" Homo erectus appears to have evolved in Africa about 1.8 million years ago. Migrations first to Asia and then to Europe. the species became extinct sometimes less than .5 million years ago. This timing places Homo erectus between Homo habilis and the earliest appearance of Homo sapiens. The time of migration out of Africa is unknown. Most scholars agreed migration occur about 1 million years ago but there is continue debate over how much earlier than this had begun.

Recently a Homo erectus lower jaw has been found in Georgia and said to be 1.6 million years ago. A number of important firsts were recorded during the Homo erectus’ existence.

The first appearance of hominids outside of Africa.
The first appearance of systematic hunting.
Tool making and use of fire.
First indication of extended childhood.
Homo erectus was capable of a more complex life.
The brain size was increased over halibis ranging between 850 and 1100 cm cube.
Body size also increased. Reaching close to 1.8 meters in male and 1.55 meters in females.
The cranium is long and low and somewhat flattened at the front and back.
The cranial bone being thicker than in earlier hominids.
The face is short but wide and the nasal aperture projected forward, suggesting the first appearance of the typical human external nose with the nostril facing downward.
Pronounced brow ridges are present above the orbits.
The postcranial skeleton is similar to that of modern man but its robust and was clearly heavily muscled.
Homo erectus evidently routinely experienced heavy physical exertion."

http://www.stanford.edu/~harryg/protected/chp22.htm

And what's wrong with a bipedal orangutan? The consensus seems to be that k-w evolved independently in the three Great Ape lines. Bipedalism evidently preceeded knuckle-walking. Gorillas were brachiators until they became too heavy. Orangs brachiate, but walk rather well bipedally on the ground. So do Gibbons.

Meldrum supports the idea of Homo floresiensis being something of an Orang Pendak, BTW. The artifacts may be coincidental. But just because Louis Leakey blew, it, all apparent association can't be dismissed. He did get it right later and there seemed to be no other candidates.

Giganto's a good fit. If it was an omnivorous biped, it's a dead ringer. There's about 300,000 years for modification, quite a bit longer than anatomically modern humans have been around.

And I'm not religious.

Russian hominidologists don't seem to have a problem with Almasty being Neandertals. They base that on the footprints, I believe. Krantz thought they were neolithic hunters, fully human.

The Almasty don't seem to be like the Kaptar, which is Sasquatch-like right down to the non-opposed thumb and sleeping posture.

If Homo floresiensis is a dwarfed H.erectus, a form of erectus was alive circa 13,000 years ago (and possibly into the present). I don't think that's any more ridiculous than the idea that unidentified hominid primates are alive and well in North America.

More trees here:

http://hometown.aol.com/darwinpage/trees.htm

It's been changed since the last time I saw it. It's on the Smithsonian's website.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html

Nothing has ever evolved back to an earlier version. Ever. And no, sasquatch could not evolve into a worm like creature. Just saying something doesn't make it true. You got any evidence to back it up?