I sent this into the BFRO last month on behalf of my friend who doesn't have internet. I asked her if I could submit her story to see what the experts would say about it. I found this story a bit frightening because where it happened is where I go camping in the summer.

This was last September of 2005. My friend, her husband and three children went camping in a Southern Ontario camping ground and trailer park. They usually go there three or four times a year and sometimes my family and I join them. This particular time we didn't join them because of doing something else that weekend.

Anyways it was in the wee hours of Sunday morning on Sept 25 and my friend's three kids were asleep in the tent. Their parents sat outside about twenty feet away around the fire and chatting away. Behind this tent is the woods. Where you camped was a small clearing and off to the left was a pond. Their campsite was right beside the pond. There were no other campers that weekend.

It was around three in the morning and my friend and her husband were sitting and enjoying the cool fall air and the warmth of the fire. Then they heard a strange noise coming from the woods and thought at first it might have been someone opening a van door, but there is no road close to the campsites. What surrounds the campsites are woods and farmlands and miles of it. They didn't pay any mind to that and went back to chatting away. Then a few minutes later, they heard something growl at them from the bushes. They had flashlights with them and both moved the beams in the bushes to see what it was that growled at them. They said that the growling sounded deep and was followed by very deep exhales. My friend's husband is an experienced camper and he knows what animal sounds like what. He said that this growl was from an animal that he had never heard of before. There was no movement in the woods and they couldn't see what was back there. The growling continued and then it would seem like it was coming from a different direction seconds later, but no other movement was heard. My friend's husband said that whatever made that growling noise sounded tall. He knew it was no racoon or anything like that. The growling continued for about fifteen more minutes and they got scared. So what they ended up doing was going in the tent themselves to see if what was growling at them would go away. It continued on for about ten more minutes before it finally stopped.

They awoke early that morning after a fitful sleep and checked around to see if there was anything unusual, but they saw nothing. There were no footprints or anything. What they ended up doing was leaving the campgrounds in a hurry.

They have been back there since and have heard nothing ever again. I too was there this year and I heard nothing either. I laid awake all night in my tent to see if I could hear something, but I didnt' hear a thing.

The story freaked me out because my friend's husband who is a very experienced camper explained that the growls scared him and that it sounded tall. I have known these people over twenty years and I know they would never lie to me. My friend also stated she was scared too. Still that noise didn't deter anyone from going camping again.

I know that my family and I will be going back there. It's a beautiful park with lots to do and not a lot of people. We go at least once a year.

Really I don't know what to think of that and neither does my friend. There have been bigfoot sightings here in Ontario and the city I once lived in there was a sighting out in the county side of it. The story made the papers. There have been sightings in Grimsby, Hamilton, (which is near where we camp). There is tons of forests out there and something could be hidden and not discovered.

By sounding "Tall" do you mean the sounds appeared to be generating from somewhere over their heads? If it was in a forested area, could it have been something partially up a tree?

Hi Twinkletoes,

I grew up just outside of Toronto, and know sothern Ontario fairly well, and I am always surprised about possible Sasquatch sightings in this area . . . the urban sprawl in most of the major centres seems to preclude a satisfying habitat for a creature a large as a Sasquatch, so when I hear of an encounter I really love to know more, especially where the exact location of the encounter took place . . . are you able to share this information?

I actually live in the area right now and would be able to check it out pretty soon if just the area was made available.

Several of us here in Ontario are slowly putting together a research group so that would be great.

There was a sighting by truckers near Hamilton as well as the Beamsville sightings

Thanks

Alex

Somethings to think about.

Possums in a tree, they make some horrible noises and if it was 8 feet up in a tree...

Someone released a pet panther or leopard and it was sitting on a tree limb growling at them...

A Bear, not to many campers know what a bear sounds like...

No eye reflections with the flashlights?

Okay the area is Olympia Villiage Trailer Park on 1161 Concession 4 in Waterdown Ontario..Near hwy 403 and hwy 6..I guess that's closer to Burlington I suppose..

Yes there are a few stories out of the surrounding areas near Hamilton and in Smithville too and I forgot to mention Grimsby. That would be great if you could look there I'm curious to find out what it could have been and my friends are too..


Moregan..sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing, but I will tell you this..when my friend said that the growls came from an animal that sounded tall, he meant that it came from an animal that was way bigger than a racoon for example..he said it had lung power to it, epecially with the deep exhales after the growls when it was taking a breath. My friend described it as sounding like what a bull would do when it exhales..they even described the exhales as almost sounding like snorts at times but not from a pig..like I said my friend is an experienced camper and he has been camping in all kinds of places and what he heard that night was nothing like he heard before..he knows what a coon sounds like when it growls and other animals too..He had heard nothing like it before in his life and he said it scared him because the animal sounded big..something was in those woods watching them and growling at them that early morning..it scared them enough they had to go in their tent..i know if it were me, i'd be leaving, but they didn't..i guess they didn't want to wake up the children..i hope this help out..

When would there be an Ontario expedition??

twinkletoes,

Thanks for the additional details.

The information is already secondhand, but well worth analyzing.

Is there a black bear population in this area? Bears can make complex vocalizations, and often will exhale loudly when excited, anxious, or in an unsure situation. This species can ascend trees, and despite their size, are very stealthy when they choose to be.

Bears can be territorial, and habituated individuals may attempt to intimidate campers for foodstuffs, or chase people from an area, leaving food containers behind. Could your family have been blocking the creature's access to the water source?

Regarding the movement of the growls from one place to another: you mentioned that a pond was nearby. Sound travels well through water, and the surrounding shoreline will reflect and sometimes amplify sounds. A good example of this is listening to bullfrogs' territorial vocalizations. It's hard to believe that such a small creature can produce such a large sound! Remove it from an acoustically favorable site, and the sound is not as powerful. Why do you think that frogs compete for certain areas of a pond?!

Just some ideas to ponder.

[quote name='twinkletoes' post='339807' date='Sep 6 2006, 03:41 PM']
Okay the area is Olympia Villiage Trailer Park on 1161 Concession 4 in Waterdown Ontario..Near hwy 403 and hwy 6..I guess that's closer to Burlington I suppose..

Yes there are a few stories out of the surrounding areas near Hamilton and in Smithville too and I forgot to mention Grimsby. That would be great if you could look there I'm curious to find out what it could have been and my friends are too..


Moregan..sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing, but I will tell you this..when my friend said that the growls came from an animal that sounded tall, he meant that it came from an animal that was way bigger than a racoon for example..he said it had lung power to it, epecially with the deep exhales after the growls when it was taking a breath. My friend described it as sounding like what a bull would do when it exhales..they even described the exhales as almost sounding like snorts at times but not from a pig..like I said my friend is an experienced camper and he has been camping in all kinds of places and what he heard that night was nothing like he heard before..he knows what a coon sounds like when it growls and other animals too..He had heard nothing like it before in his life and he said it scared him because the animal sounded big..something was in those woods watching them and growling at them that early morning..it scared them enough they had to go in their tent..i know if it were me, i'd be leaving, but they didn't..i guess they didn't want to wake up the children..i hope this help out..
[/quote]

Thank you very much for the location and I will check it out personally.

A word of note.

This place is pretty darn close by...

http://www.lionsafari.com/

Just in case I don't come back...

Thanks Twinkletoes!

Cheers

Alex




"The information is already secondhand, but well worth analyzing.

Is there a black bear population in this area? Bears can make complex vocalizations, and often will exhale loudly when excited, anxious, or in an unsure situation. This species can ascend trees, and despite their size, are very stealthy when they choose to be.

Bears can be territorial, and habituated individuals may attempt to intimidate campers for foodstuffs, or chase people from an area, leaving food containers behind. Could your family have been blocking the creature's access to the water source?

Regarding the movement of the growls from one place to another: you mentioned that a pond was nearby. Sound travels well through water, and the surrounding shoreline will reflect and sometimes amplify sounds. A good example of this is listening to bullfrogs' territorial vocalizations. It's hard to believe that such a small creature can produce such a large sound! Remove it from an acoustically favorable site, and the sound is not as powerful. Why do you think that frogs compete for certain areas of a pond?!

Just some ideas to ponder."
[/quote]

Wudewasa

This place is really close to civilization on all sides. There is lots of building going on as well.

The thing that really intriques me is, there are a lots of caves and rock formations in the area so lots of places to hide.

If you plot a line from here to Beamsville it can be got to without going through too many towns as well, and remember the trucker sighting about 10 miles away in hamilton.

It would be extremely rare for a bear to be seen here as well.

I'll see if there is anything there.

cheers

Alex

At this point we are trying to put together a group and the members will come from all over the province.

If you look at the Eastern Canada portion of main page of the forum there is some info there and then we can start planning on something.

Thanks again. Will let you know what I find out.

Cheers

Alex

I live very near this area too. I can tell you that it's very urban, highly unlikely for black bear, and very questionable for any kind of sasquatch activity. The areas mentioned around Smithville and Grimsby are older reports, and they happened in more wooded or farmland type locations to the south of Hamilton.

All areas surrounding the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) are undergoing huge change with rapid urbanization. Subdivisions and big box stores are shooting up everywhere. It isn't likely that this was sasquatch related - not impossible - just highly unlikely, because of the massive population surrounding this location.

That said, it still needs to be investigated. I would suggest that the witness contact one of us to set up an interview. You can pm either BigAlx or myself with the details if your friend is in agreement. We'd be happy to check out the location, which we're both close to. Also, if your friend has internet access, it might be a good idea if both she and her husband listen to as many animal and bird calls as they can, to try to eliminate those from the "possible's" list.

Thanks guys I appreciate this and I know my friend will too..I will talk to her by phone tonight and see if she is willing to give an interview in person so she can better tell the story...you're right it's hearsay..then I will let you know..

Twinkletoes.. :new_thumbsupsmileyanim:

They said that the growling sounded deep and was followed by very deep exhales

Sorry but this sounds just like a bear. Could have stood up on its hind legs for the sound to come from a height. JMHO

It could have been anything and you can't discount someone in the bushes trying to scare you. Campers drink beer and get bored.

t.

Right, I agree. Also, not actually hearing the sound, I will say that I have had Possums growl at me in a really low tone, and then Fiercely exhale in a vicious hissing sound. And I'll tell you it was loud and it scared the Heck out of me.

Bears are almost nonexistent in this area and I have never seen a possum here.

It is pretty darn close to a zoo though

Alex

Alex,

I agree, the chances of it being a bear are almost nil as the urban sprawl in the general area would preclude the possibility of a bear living or even migrating through the area. Not sure if there are possums in this area either . . . a deer could have done the exhalations, but not sure about the fact that the person thought that it was off the ground abit. Of course all this is conjecture (execpt the bear bit) until someone follows up with the report . . . whoever does please keep us informed as I would very interested in learning more.

I will be there to look around in the next 4 or 5 days

I will let you know and show pics of the area!

Cheers

Alex

I would rule out a bear also. A bears growl has more of moaning sound to it, the noise an irratated bear makes doesnt sound like what most people's conception of growl is, such made by dog, or other small forest animals.

That would be excellent Alex..thank you so much..

No problem.

It's been a year since the incident so it may be a anticlimactic but there may be something to see just the same.

Some times it just helps to know what you are looking for.

Alex

I went and had a look at the area yesterday and I will tell you what I saw;

The sighting area is a tent/trailer park in off of a concession road well away from town. The closest town is Waterdown and is 16 km away.

The concessions in Ontario were originally laid out by the Queen's cartographers in the 1700 and 1800s and are quite accurate to 1 mile square.

Where this place is located is on the north side of 4th concession and is bordered by Middletown (spelling?) road, 5th concession and highway 52.

About 50 % of the 4 miles of roadway is fenced or otherwise shows signs of ownership and the rest is open.
There are 5 or 6 Horse farms in the square and several houses not farm oriented. All of the houses have either very high fences (no trespassing signs) or dogs (with 'beware of dog' signs) or both.

The trailer park was quiet when I was there and I was pressed for time so I will have pictures next time.

The square mile is 30% farmland (corn, soy, orchards), 30% pasture and grazing and horse running areas and 40% very thick, deciduous old growth forest.


I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a legitimate sighting here. As the claimant suggests, there is nothing for miles behind the bush, it's true, but there are concession roads and houses in behind there.

I originally thought that bear and possum would be impossible but I saw a dead possum on highway 8 on the way out so I stand corrected. Bears? no information in the area.

I will go back when I have more time but I am convinced the area could support a large, mammal.

Cheers

Alex

[I originally thought that bear and possum would be impossible but I saw a dead possum on highway 8 on the way out so I stand corrected. Bears? no information in the area.
[/quote]

Alex, they do have bears, in fact they have a number to call for problem bears in that district. I work for MNR and called our office there.

t.

[quote name='Terry' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:54 PM' post='341175']
[I originally thought that bear and possum would be impossible but I saw a dead possum on highway 8 on the way out so I stand corrected. Bears? no information in the area.
[/quote]

Alex, they do have bears, in fact they have a number to call for problem bears in that district. I work for MNR and called our office there.

t.
[/quote]

No kiddin?

Isn't that weird? You know how populated the area is. It's really a bedroom community for Hamilton and Burlington.

So I guess it's like New Jersey then? Lots of people and bears too?

Did you read the original post? Do you think that sounds like black bear behaviour?

At this point I am completely interested in any and all feedback

Thanks Terry!

Alex

[quote name='BigAlx' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:22 PM' post='341182']
[quote name='Terry' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:54 PM' post='341175']
[I originally thought that bear and possum would be impossible but I saw a dead possum on highway 8 on the way out so I stand corrected. Bears? no information in the area.
[/quote]

Alex, they do have bears, in fact they have a number to call for problem bears in that district. I work for MNR and called our office there.

t.
[/quote]

No kiddin?

Isn't that weird? You know how populated the area is. It's really a bedroom community for Hamilton and Burlington.

So I guess it's like New Jersey then? Lots of people and bears too?

Did you read the original post? Do you think that sounds like black bear behaviour?

At this point I am completely interested in any and all feedback

Thanks Terry!

Alex
[/quote]

No it certainly doesn't sound like bear behavior. Most animals won't stay in one place like that being vocal. I go back to my post that indicates it could have been other campers (kids/teenagers) trying to scare them. Coons in a tree can make strange noises. Horses in the distance? I really don't think a sasquatch is an option although people get that stuff in their head and convince themselves that's what it could be. An experienced camper doesn't mean someone familiar with wildlife and again, it could have been anything in my opinion and easily explained by someone familiar with critters.

t.

[q

"No it certainly doesn't sound like bear behavior. Most animals won't stay in one place like that being vocal. I go back to my post that indicates it could have been other campers (kids/teenagers) trying to scare them. Coons in a tree can make strange noises. Horses in the distance? I really don't think a sasquatch is an option although people get that stuff in their head and convince themselves that's what it could be. An experienced camper doesn't mean someone familiar with wildlife and again, it could have been anything in my opinion and easily explained by someone familiar with critters."

t.
[/quote]

Yes sir, objectivity is so important with anything like this.

Terry, there were (supposed) sightings of a cougar(s) around London here within the last few years as well as in Wawa area. Do you put any faith in these?

Thanks

Alex

Yes sir, objectivity is so important with anything like this.

Terry, there were (supposed) sightings of a cougar(s) around London here within the last few years as well as in Wawa area. Do you put any faith in these?

Thanks

Alex (quote)


Alex I was going to mention a possible cougar but that's a bit far fetched due to the rarity. I don't think one would stay put and be vocal for a long period of time like what our camping friends experienced but one never knows I suppose. I do put faith in cougar sightings and I'm the govt. contact in this area for sightings. In fact I've got a supply of cougar urine for a hair trap when the right opportunity comes. We're getting cougar sightings throughout the province as you know and the questions are, are they released pets, cougars moving back into these areas or did they in fact never disappear. It's really interesting and we'll solve this one in the near future no doubt. Nice to see a N. Ontario lad on this site!

t.

If there is an Ontario Expedition, I would love to join as the Mystery has been a passion of mine since I was a boy.

I live in Kitchener and My email is Casselli_italy@hotmail.com

Let me know if there is an sasquatch expedition in the works for southern Ontario.

Keep and eye on the Ontario expedition subforum on the main page and I am quite sure there will be up and coming information.

Cheers

Alex

Twinkletoes, you mentioned a couple of times that this incident happened in the "wee hours" -I assume after midnight. It occurs to me that if a sasquatch ( or bear for that matter) was accustomed to scavenging around this camping area unmolested in the early morning it may have been peeved to discover your friend's party awake and active. It may have been voicing it's displeasure!

Hi, twinkletoes. I was directed to this report today after reading your post ('Simple Question, Be as Detailed as You Need to be', of yesterday/today?) on one of the General Discussion threads. As it turns out I know some folks who own a trailer at the Olympia Village Trailer Park. While I understand from reading this thread that an investigation was done on the incident, I thought I might add a couple of items for consideration, even though it's long after the fact.

Spencer Creek flows through the trailer park property and after crossing the 4th Concession Road immediately to the south of the park, becomes the eastern boundary of the Century Pines Golf Club. Golf courses along water sheds are a favored nocturnal hangout and transportation route for BF - I simply offer this tidbit from personal experience, although nobody has to believe it. The rather high deer population in this area also encourages the notion of possible BF presence because at night the deer come right out onto the fairways and even do damage by standing on the greens - they seem to like the really short cut grass. I used to be an assistant greenskeeper on a couple of golf clubs a number of years ago (in both Hamilton and Markham) and often had to repair deer damage done to the turf.

As for the question of whether BF could be in the area, I have no reason to think they would not be, since they have been widely reported throughout virtually all of southern Ontario for a very long time. As some of the folks above have mentioned there are lots of BF reports in surrounding areas and I will add that there are quite a few unreported incidents throughout southern Ontario, as well. The habitat is excellent and, personally speaking, I would be very surprised to find that BF would not be in the area of your friend's report.

Below is a map of the area where the trailer park is located.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?ie=UTF-8&oe...mp;z=14&t=m

For the skeptics I will offer a little counter-BF evidence by mentioning that both cougars and bears are found in the area. Two bears have been shot in the Dundas Valley since 2004, a cougar was run over on Hamilton's Lincoln Alexander Parkway a year ago and an official police cougar warning to the public was issued last week in Pickering, on the east side of Toronto, out near the Toronto Zoo.

So while there is evidence for either side, for both personal and circumstantial reasons I still go with Squatchy, 'cause... 'He-Da-Man'!
Dudlow

We all know squatchy likes to hang near golf clubs, he's got a great side business going with the used golf ball business. Hey a game of indian
stick ball even breaks out late at night on some of those fairways and greens don't you know.

There was another story, thanks to the golf course idea in Hamilton. Hamilton has a golf course called King's Forest Golf Course. It's surrounded by woods and a waterfall called Webster's Falls. Back in 1985 or 1986, a man went public with the Hamilton Spectator with a story that bigfoot was hanging around King's Forest and his large footprints were seen in the snow and some hair samples were taken from a tree and analyzed and proven to be of an unknown animal. I don't know if there were any actual sightings or not. The story did hit the Hamilton Spectator newspaper and I believe the month was March or April of one of those two years.

The guy who put the story in published his phone number as well for any questions and I phoned him. This is going back over twenty years now and I can't remember the whole conversation, but I did ask him what proof he had of bigfoot being in the bush there. He told me about the footprints, the hair sample, and the noises coming from the bush. I wasn't sure if I should believe him or not. After that conversation, I spoke to another friend about this guy and he knew him and said the guy was some crazy person out for attention and for me not to believe him. This friend of mine and him both went to the same military base to train apparently.

I was just wishing to come across that story again just to read it and have a laugh. I don't know if anyone here knows what I'm talking about. If you do., please let me know where i can get a hold of the story.

Hi, twinkletoes. One possibility is to physically visit the Hamilton Spectator archives room in Hamilton and do a search. Another, which you could do on-line, is to visit their website and pay for an archive search using the appropriate search terms. You would probably need a credit card number to get the search done 'cause nobody duz nuffin' fur free anymore.

If you can get some more details and at least nail down the year, maybe I can find something out about it for you, as I am here in Hamilton. I'll see what I can turn up, if anything.
Dudlow

Hi Dudlow, now that I think about it further, the story was March of 1986 and came out during my spring break from school. I remember that now. It was like the 18th of March that year, or something to that effect. I'm going to go to the library one day and see if I can find it in the microphiche where the older newspapers are and print off the pages and then post them on the forum here. It was an interesting story at that. Supposedly bigfoot had visited King's Forest in Hamilton. If you could find it before me, post it..

Thanks for the up-date, twinkletoes. I'll see what I can come up with.

On the subject of King's Forest in Hamilton, you probably know by now that the Red Hill Valley Expressway was completed a couple of years ago (I can't believe it is that long!). Sadly, it divided the valley of King's Forest in half. Now the King's Forest Golf Club is on one side of the expressway and Glendale Golf Club is on the other side. As I understand it, the engineers included a couple of underpass choke points for the deer/wildlife to get from one side of the valley to the other. I sincerely hope that has worked out okay.

Anyway, to add a little more mystique to the wildlife aspect of King's Valley and the possibility/plausibility of the older Bigfoot story you alluded to, I will mention that about a year ago July/August there was a curious item on the local TV station news (CHCH TV) about shrill screaming coming from the forest behind the houses whose yards back up against the valley. I don't know which side of the expressway these eerie emanations came from, but a local homeowner was briefly interviewed and he was most alarmed by what might be going on in the night behind his house. My immediate thought was cougar or you-know-who. I guess it could have been either, but I sure wish I had been able to hear the evidence. One thought I had was that it could have been a BF stopped ion his tracks, upset that his normal migration path had been decimated and destroyed by the new, highspeed expressway. Hmmm... sometimes I get odd thoughts...
Dudlow

I do know of the Redhill Creek Expressway and how it split King's Forest in half from Glendale Golf course. I didn't know about the strange noises coming from part of King's forest though. I did know somebody who lived just down the street from King's Forest and I stayed there some nights at the house. I've been for long walks through King's Forest and Glendale Golf Course at night and haven't come across anything strange. Mind you that was back in the eighties and around that time when that one guy posted that story in the Hamilton Spectator about Bigfoot being in King's Forest. I've pretty much been all over the Hamilton mountain by foot from East to West. It was a very nice place until the highway went in of course. It's possible, going back to the strange screams by something a few years ago that it could've been a bigfoot and it was upset at being uprooted by all the construction. Sasquatch has been seen in Hamilton back in 65 and also in Grimsby and Smithville in 78 I believe. Anything is possible I guess.

I live in Hamilton, and the King's Forest area is less than 5km from my house. I used to hike through the area quite a bit before the expressway was built, and I've been through there a few times since it was completed.

The area is part of the Red Hill Creek watershed that runs down from the escarpment, but truthfully its pretty sparsely wooded. Most of it is mature-growth hardwoods with very little in the way of substantial ground cover. There are a few thickets around some of the more marshy areas that are sanctuary for the deer in the area. Its quite picturesque, and there are all kinds of trails through the area. In the summer its pretty thick, but in the late fall and winter months your visibilty can be well over 100m in all directions.

There are a ton of deer in the area, but I've never seen tracks of anything bigger. You don't have to go far off the trails to find evidence of fire pits, beer bottles, etc. Any strange noises coming out of here are likely to be bored teenagers goofing off.

Yup, MadAxe. This is exactly how stories get started, because people hear "something" and jump to a conclusion that has no basis in fact.

The fact is, Hamilton is an urban area, with suburbs, parking lots, shopping malls and lots of traffic. People ... get some perspective. Please.

(Oh, what's the point. Romantics are everywhere, spreading their wishful thinking. It's like trying to stop a freight train bearing down on you. What's the friggin point in trying to educate them ... )

Open minds open doors; closed minds close doors.
Dudlow

Edited to add: There are none so blind as those who will not see.

No, actually there are none so blind as Romantics.

Facts are facts. I'm open to facts and will examine everything BEFORE making assumptions about what something is. Don't even suggest that I'm closed minded. I'm a sasquatch investigator ... forgodsakes.

Pat, you seem to be warning others about making 'assumptions', as you put it, both directly above and in your previous post. What assumptions are you specifically referring to that displease you and which, in your opinion, others are making here?

As far as so-called 'romantics' go, I haven't seen any evidence of that on this thread, either; have you? I suppose you must have ferreted something out along that line since you mention and warn against it; so If you have, perhaps you could advise the rest of us exactly where that danger might be lurking?
Thanks.
Dudlow

Open-minded is one thing. Anybody who is seriously entertaining the possibility of anything bigger than a 120lb whitetail in the King's Forest (other than people) is in danger of having their brains fall out.

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with the habitat of SW Ontario supporting a large primate. I'll go so far as to acknowledge that a self-aware animal could theoretically avoid detection by humans by passing through rural and suburban watersheds at night. But this is a watershed that is right smack in the middle of one of the most densely populated, heavily urbanized areas in North America. The Golden Horseshoe has a population of something like 10 or 12 million people in a few hundred square kilometers. It doesn't even get truly dark at night because of all the light pollution. No offense, but the idea of any kind of modern Sasquatch habitation around here is ludicrous.

I understand, MadAxe, but I think we have to remember this story about King's Forest was something like 22 years ago, when things were radically different in terms of land distribution throughout the watershed areas of Hamilton. Also, to follow your current, rather conservative, logic I would suspect you would also therefore reject the BF restaurant dumpster-diving reports coming from a varied list of (mostly) American cities over the past few years. It seems that folks who reject these types of reports don't accept the notion of BF being anywhere around urbanized areas. Fair enough; but there is a lot of counter-evidence on this issue that needs to be considered in order to flesh out the possibilities.

When I lived in North Vancouver, B.C, back in the early 1970s we had cougars and bears in our back yards several times each year. It was a constant parade of RCMP with tranq guns and megaphones, telling citizens to close their doors and stay inside until they had the critter under control. And, believe me, that was directly adjacent to a highly urbanized area. The possibilities for BF also being there are obviously not proven, but they are possible, nonetheless, and had been reported. Even today I do not dismiss BF occasionally making forays into urbanized areas as per so many reports indicating the same.

One of the questions we might ask ourselves is, exactly how close to or how far from intensive human activity would BF dare to venture? To judge from the reports there seems to be no consistent answer other than to conclude it does happen from time to time and place to place.
Dudlow

Yes, I reject most of those restaurant dumpster diving accounts because the odds are so heavily stacked against them. The problem with urban or suburban reports is that they don't square with the degree of elusiveness this animal is characterized with. They also occur continent-wide in the most unlikely of places. Our argument for not having a body is that this animal is rare, long-lived, nocturnal and reclusive by nature. An animal like a cougar or a bear is occasionally willing to venture into human areas, but they are also photographed regularly and have been shot and killed by the hundreds of thousands over the decades. So which is it? Are Sasquatch rare and elusive or ubiquitous and fearless?

If Sasquatch is willing to come deep into heavily populated areas, then we should be seeing and photographing them FAR more often than we are. There should be footprints in people's lawns and flower gardens on a nightly basis across the continent. They should be showing up on traffic surveillance cameras, convenience store security cameras, etc.

For those reasons, Occam's Razor suggests that Sasquatch sighting reports in heavily urbanized areas are much more likely to be lies, hoaxes, or cases mistaken identity.

In terms of how close these animals, if they exist, are willing to encroach on human activity? It only makes sense to limit their range to areas where the food, water and cover availability are of sufficient value to equal or exceed the stresses of remaining unseen by humans. That's going to vary with the season, the terrain, human activities, etc. A deeply forested area with little to no human habitation is a good trade-off. A tiny, mostly open wood-lot a few hundred meters in size surrounded on all sides by tens of kilometers of solid human development is not a good trade-off. Any reports originating from that area just aren't credible.

MadAxe, you admit you reject these urbanized accounts based on your own personally determined interpretation of 'odds'. Clearly your sense of 'odds' is at odds with the many sightings and findings which have come to light over the past 20 years. Maybe you just haven't read enough reports to realize that yet. I hope you're still not arguing, as was once universally the case, that BF is purely a Northwest Coast Phenom. That had to change, too, based on continent-wide sightings and encounters which naturally overcame the prejudicial beliefs of earlier researchers. Things change and positions change based on the acquisition and continuing development of available evidence. In fact I would submit that with the plethora of such reports, your notion of Occam's razor is a fallacy which no longer supports your position; rather, it now bends heavily in favor of supporting an abundance of BF presence adjacent to highly build up urbanized areas, based upon so many encounters and reports. How many hundreds of such reports would it take to convince you? Or are you resolutely against the idea just for the sake of holding a contrary position? If so, that's fine, but I certainly won't look to you for any useful information on the Forum to help me with continuously developing my understanding of BF behavior. And as in most cases, you defer to the practice of speculating about what you think 'should' be, which itself ignores evidence to the contrary and which therefore also points towards deliberate ignorance. It's not about what 'should' be, it's about what is; and when you find a difference between the two, you have hit paydirt in terms of discovering an important credibility gap that must be closed by looking into it . You seem to assume some secret knowledge about what squatchy would or would not do. Me? I haven't got a clue, so I follow the available evidence into new areas of hypothertical possibility. Trust me, it's a lot more exciting and informative out here than being stuck inside yesterday's box.
Dudlow

An open mind is like an open window. It can let in the sunlight and fresh air but that same open window can let in a bunch of problematic stuff as well. Nothing as problematic as a second hand Bigfoot account. The account that began this thread is the most problematic kind. Second hand and nothing except some sounds.

Sorry to say I had no luck on the microfiche search, twinkletoes. The central library (where I went) now has all of the Hamilton Spectator`s archives. I searched all of March 1986, but no cigar. If you come up with another probable date range I`ll give it another crack. The searching is free so it`s no big deal.
Dudlow

Hi Dudlow, try 1985 then.. it was in those two year time frames.. I know it was a March when I saw that in the spectator. thanx..

As I said, I don't have the slightest problem with the idea of Sasquatch living outside the PNW from a habitat or ecological niche point of view. My problem is reconciling the apparent ubiquity of this animal in or near heavily populated areas without any corresponding physical evidence, or even a statistically significant number of relatively unambiguous sightings. We have neither.



Hardly that many - half a dozen independent sightings from reasonably credible witnesses, in the same time/area would be enough to warrant looking into the matter. But one or two vague, solitary reports from anonymous sources, separated by years or decades doesn't even begin to cut it.



What evidence to the contrary? Do you know of any footprints, photos, video or audio recordings from this area? The BFRO has a few anonymous accounts spread out over forty years or so. They make for interesting reading, but nothing more.

Is it impossible these animals could be living in heavily populated areas? Anything is 'possible'. But any hunter will tell you that you don't look for an animal where it's 'possible' for them to be - you try to figure out what habitat they are exploiting and look for them there. If you want to spend time and energy running down reports from the suburbs that's certainly your prerogative. Best of luck and let us know how it works out for you.