...What about the seeds and core? A whitetail would have eaten the whole thing. At least they did the last batch of apples I put out.....

:new_tiredsmiley:

Look up what Dr. Bambenek has done in his research and development (and not just the pheremone chips) and you tell me he isn't qualified as a scientist.
Do you like to argue just to argue? :icon_bang:

Actually, that's exactly what I think, but I didn't want to start a flame exchange by writing it down so bluntly.

All true.

I'll stick with my giant coyote theory.

It seems to work just as well as the elk or sasquatch ones..................

I agree with BD...Dr. Bambenek is clearly a scientist.

Because it was approaching the fruit with a low profile, not wallowing as an elk might. I can see elk using a mudhole to cool off in hot weather, but to lie in one when it's freezing? Seems odd to me.

Bull Behavior
By September, a bull's antlers are fully grown and almost ready for the displays and battles to come. The bull removes the tattered velvet and polishes his antlers by rubbing them on trees, shrubs and even the ground. Vigorous rubbing also releases his pent-up energy and leaves behind his scent to let other elk know that he is around.

If mud is available, bulls also wallow during mating season. A thorough mud covering cools off an over-heated bull, spreads his scent evenly over his body, and makes him look even more imposing.

I think the Skookum site is being visited through out the year, every year since the 2000 expedition. Fruit has been left out every-time, in the exact same spot as well as others (I have noticed some liberties taken here though... potatoes and such). In fact two years after the event I documented finding tracks within 100 yards from the site near an abandoned honey comb with no teeth marks in it. Sometimes I go down there by myself and camp... every-time I have found old and new fruit left at the site. Don't know who is leaving it but I have a sneaky suspicion...

As far as the mass exodus from the site at the end of the expedition. Who's to say what anybody else would really do in the same circumstance... not just saying what one would do but actually doing it. Calling in to work and saying you need more time off, calling the airlines and trying to rebook, calling your nurse and telling her to reschedule patients, calling customers and employees. Nobody on that expedition did this full time. Their money was coming from other jobs. They had set aside and planned a certain amount of funds and time for this. There was maybe only one person capable of staying longer... Dr. Bam Bam... but I am only guessing that he had funds to do so, but his practice would have taken a hit probably.

Supplies were also at an end. My truck was having serious problems... battery and alternator. These are not excuses. They are what happened. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. You will not find anything to contradict it.

Think what you like... but we came out with more than just a story, bumps and screams unrecorded in the night. We did find other impressions in the ground that looked like Bigfoot tracks. I don't know how many times I have said that. I didn't have any plaster left and so their are only pictures of them. But there seems to be an unwritten law here that tracks must be within a certain distance and time frame as to be related. Oh well... not my rule.

A year later there was a sighting just down the road from the site by two people who don't get spooked or are unfamiliar with local wildlife. They also found tracks supporting the sighting and cast them.

The GPNF Ape Cave tour guide, yes a government employee, has been heard to recount the story of the Skookum expedition and the making of the cast before plunging the tourists into one of the longest lava tubes in north America. It isn't done so lightly either. I have heard it while filming there.

Hopefully your not thinking that 13 people performed a hoax, knew it was over and the goods safely tucked in the back of a truck and thought nothing of leaving. Jeff Lemley lived about 30 miles away in Trout Lake and continued to visit the site and it's surroundings for almost a year afterwards. He continues to do so.

I think there are good areas like this in many places and just because no one on this board has heard about them doesn't mean they don't exist, that the people studying the areas are just being romantic about their findings. They know now that even people into the subject will scoff unless they come out with a body. They know that because they have been involved in Bigfoot research that they will be scrutinized even more so than if not. They may not even like the internet from what they see while lurking here... downright meanness.

Criticize this all you want... but you should get out there and do better before passing judgment and what you think is critical wisdom.

I am sure this will get picked apart just like everything else so have at it.

Because it was approaching the fruit with a low profile, not wallowing as an elk might. I can see elk using a mudhole to cool off in hot weather, but to lie in one when it's freezing? Seems odd to me.

From here: http://www.rmef.org/pages/elkseasons.html



Maybe he was gettin' ready to get some hot lovin'?

Okay, then Dr. Bambenek is a scientist (Dr. Fish too?) and the expedition can be considered at least somewhat scientific. I stand corrected and we win. :new_lmaosmiley:

Odd ? Or just untenable ( for you ) ?

Elk lay in the snow all the time .. Freezing cold environments make up a natural part of their
habitat... Why on earth would you find it odd ?

Are there some desert elk I haven't heard about ?

Why would the alleged Bigfoot have less of a problem when it's freezing ?

Ah. Thanks for the info. I obviously didn't think of that. But it says "wallow", not "lie" in the mud, and wallowing makes a mess. Brings up the antler problem again, doesn't it?

And if the alleged elk was lying down eating the apples, how did it manage to drop bits through its fore legs?

Since RayG has told us repeatedly the BFRO can't be considered a scientific organization, maybe I'm beginning to believe him.

Maybe someone can enlightened me on what it takes to legitimately be called a scientist.

A scientist is an expert in at least one area of science who uses the scientific method to do research.

An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of knowledge, technique, or skill whose judgment is accorded authority and status by the public or their peers. Experts have prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field.

Science in the broadest sense refers to any knowledge or trained skill, especially (but not exclusively) when this is attained by verifiable means.[1] The word science also describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from such study. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism, as well as to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning. All this evidence is collectively called scientific evidence.

My brother has done original research, has a PhD, is published, etc., etc, but I don't really consider him a "scientist" either. Maybe I will when he wins the Nobel Prize.

Whew! This has been the most damnable thread, but I got through it! Though heated at times, and perhaps some bridges were burned by some, it has been a most valuable thread for it's information. I'd like to see all of this on a website (without the "who hit whom" and heated comments) made for the Skookum Cast. If everyone agrees with the information being collected, colated and put in a format for best utilization, I'd be happy to tackle the project.

Gotta thank everyone involved, DDA especially. You're a class act under fire in my opinion.

I don't see moose in the yard during summer/fall. They show up at my house in mid-winter. But I know plenty of people who have fed apples to them. Moose love apples.

I'd have to look this up, Wildman, but I believe the deer and bear tracks were old.

Wednesday 20 Sep 2000
Conditions: Weather cloudy to partly cloudy, night clear, no wind

Thursday 21 Sep 2000
Conditions: Cloudy, intermittent showers & rain, night clearing, no wind, 28 degrees, frost on everything, first new seasonal snows appeared on Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Adams.
On scene: Moneymaker, Bambenek, Fish, Henick, Lemley, Lee, Mort, Noll, Powell, Pugsley, Randles, Terry, Searle

Friday 22 Sep 2000
Conditions: Weather clear, windy, night clear, windy, freezing (24F), frost heave on dirt tracking areas.


Saturday 23 Sep 2000
Conditions: Morning: sunny, clear, slightly cold and breezy
On scene: Moneymaker, Bambenek, Fish, Lemley, Lee, Mort, Noll, Pugsley, Randles, Searle

I'd never marry Vol.

I'd have to look this up, Wildman, but I believe the deer and bear tracks were old.

Um, didn't I jestingly propose that (8' coyote, to be precise) on the *ahem* other board some time ago? Since I came up with it first, I should get the credit (and 1/2 your $50 million grant to be used for Sasquatch research in western North Carolina). Thank you.

From here: http://www.rmef.org/pages/elkseasons.html



Maybe he was gettin' ready to get some hot lovin'?

Ok, OK, I ate the damn apples.....

What kind of a sexist remark was that? I know you're drop-dead gorgeous, but I wonder if anyone would want to marry you anyway if you have an attitude like that. Click to view attachment

!!!!!

Okay, then Dr. Bambenek is a scientist (Dr. Fish too?) and the expedition can be considered at least somewhat scientific. I stand corrected and we win. :new_lmaosmiley:

Ah. Thanks for the info. I obviously didn't think of that. But it says "wallow", not "lie" in the mud, and wallowing makes a mess. Brings up the antler problem again, doesn't it?

What?! You want $25 million for arguing with those........."people"..........on the *ahem* other board?!!

Well,................I'm not sure $25 million is enough for putting up with those folks, so............okay.

Are there some desert elk I haven't heard about ?

Oh for Gawds sakes. Again it's not the information you're given (or a request to look it up yourself) it's who you hear it from. Maybe my word just isn't good enough for you.

Hardly, that is only speculation, just like this whole thing.
Guess what? Animals lay in the mud; they don't have yucky feelings like people. Maybe a cow was attracted to the bait and just laid in the mud.
Elk do just fine in the winter just like any other animal that lives in northern climates and they aren't really particular about 20 degree F temps. Hell my Labs like that better than 80 degrees F.

All this rhetoric does absolutely nothing to solve this problem.

I probably don't need a rational explanation for why an elk would be lying in a semi-frozen mudhole (as opposed to warmer, dryer ground )

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know everything.

Only if you can show they were behaving scientifically..

It has already been pointed out there didn't seem to be any documentation of the baited
area before the impression was found.

A scientist behaving scientifically, would have planned their experiment a little better..

Tule Elk. They occupy the southern and central valleys of California. And don't go telling me that it an't a desert. I was born and raised there, excavated 50+ sites, etc. all in 120 degree heat with nary a tree or shrub as my comfort!

The bait sites were documented before hand... please stop assuming things because you don't know about them.

But it says "wallow", not "lie" in the mud, and wallowing makes a mess.

Then that documentation would have fit nicely at the beginning of this thread..

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=15671

Right between post #1 and #2 ...


Pointing out that something is missing, is not an assumption, it is a statement of fact.

Something we could use a lot more of ...

I swear some of the things you ask and the way you do it sounds an awful lot like a divorce attorney I had to go against.

Guess what? Animals lay in the mud; they don't have yucky feelings like people. Maybe a cow was attracted to the bait and just laid in the mud.
Elk do just fine in the winter just like any other animal that lives in northern climates and they aren't really particular about 20 degree F temps. Hell my Labs like that better than 80 degrees F.

OH my GOD! OH MY GOD! :ohmy: Another SEXIST remark! :icon_stressed: I'm telling!

No, no,no. I want $25 million for coming up with "your" coyote theory (and first billing when we publish) and I'll spend it on a smaller tent to be used in NC Sasquatch research....

I put up with those folks for, what, nine months? You're right it's not enough. You'll have to ask for a bigger grant.

I know moose hair is hollow to provide insulation, does anyone know about elk hair?

Not at all. I just chose to reply to Hairy Man because she's nice.

"Dr. Greg Bambenek - "Dr. Juice" is an entertaining inventor who teaches sportspeople to use the power of biology to hunt and fish more successfully. Physician, anthropologist, outdoorsman and naturalist, "Dr. Juice" has revolutionized fishing with fish attractant products, biodegradable fishing lures and his newest
product, DR. JUICE COVER SCENT R."

Is that the guy? Has he published in Pub Med?

Would Dr. Fish be considered a scientist?

....Listen SG... I could care less if you believe it or not and think it rather funny when skeptics such as yourself continue to try and find holes without really doing the homework first. I think that is one of the biggest problems many have on this board with the skeptics, coming from your skeptical viewpoint. It is almost like you really don't have an interest in the Bigfoot subject, you have an interest in testing out your powers of critical thinking...

....I swear some of the things you ask and the way you do it sounds an awful lot like a divorce attorney I had to go against. It is interrogation.....

Yeah, but I'm not as cute as Blackdog!....

So how is the fund raiser going? Will DY be comming up or not?

I know moose hair is hollow to provide insulation, does anyone know about elk hair?

Hogs would have uprooted everything in the area looking for more.

Are you ok with him coming? If so, I will speak with DY and begin the fund raising!

P.S. For planning purposes, where exactly would DY need to go in the State of Washington to see the cast? Seattle?

Wild Hogs are not native to the PNW. I did research (briefly) to see if there are any pigs/hogs in Washington state and did find reference to feral pigs in the Southern Olympic Penninsula. The WDFW has an ongoing program to eradicate them. I think hogs in the Skookum Cast area would be rarer tha BF himself. Certainly not impossible, a pig can always escape, but not a likely scenario.

Sorry if I implied that. I was referring to hogs in my area. A vague comparison that there should have been tracks of something around the bait in the mud pit. I did not mean there were hogs in the area.

*If you want to clear a path to a deer stand in my neck of the woods, take some corn and spred it from where you want it to start and to where you want it to end. Let the hogs do the work. After a few days you'll have a nice path.

...I guess they stand all winter then.