DATE: 6-02-03
STATE: Florida

LOCATION:Near Port Charlotte,approx 3 miles out of town on state road 74. OBSERVED: An 8 foot tall ape like being,was seen crossing the road into the Charlotte glades to the south.It was observed (name withheld by request)for nearly five seconds.it crodded the raod in three strides of what is guessed by the witness to be 5 ft in stride length.(*note*The road is actually 18.5 feet across at thin point) No facial details ,as the 'Creature' did not look at the vehicle but continued across the road and into the swamps.The witness then stopped the car a for a better look .But could only "hear the splashing of whatever it was in the distance".Report submitted via email on 6-22-03.after talking over with friends about reporting it. My name came up via a mutual contact of one of these friends.
RELATED OCCURANCES: One other sighting report found for this ara on the BFRO database.

TIME AND CONDITIONS: Slightly overcast night,light rain earlier.Sighting occured at approx.4.a.m.

ENVIRONMENT: Swamp and marshland area bordered by pine/scrub forrests.Lots of other wildlife in the area.Deer .Armadillos,Racoons .etc.

FOLLOW UP: Witness remains consistent in his sighting after several conversations.No prints or othe evidence was found upon investigation of the area.Ground in not ideal for prints.Gravelly,broken shell fill,used on raod side to dropoff into the ditch bordering the swamp.

sound good ? Its not. I made it up.Took about five minutes.It never happened,and the events and area are fictional .while the town and road exist the rest of the area is the outskits of what is still in town. Why did I post this if its not true ? To prove a point based on a conversation in chat.

Now the questions are regarding the above report.Did you believe it ? why ? Because I posted it ? Anyone on this forum or even periphirally involved in BF research,reading or intrest could do the same .Real or not.I have found something finally of which I have no doubt.And that is that anyone of us could have nade this report and it would have been believed.Kind of silly isnt it.If I hadnt said directly below the report that it was fake how long would it have been debated ? Could I have answered any questions asked of me to your satisfaction ? Maybe ,probably.How ? why ? Because the same as you I can read.I can think.And I've alway maintained a certain credibility among everyone for being more of a skeptic than a believer.

This also begs the question of how many other reports have you seen like this ? a few ? Alot ? Most ? They give info but are just vague enough in the descriptions and events to leave room for doubt and/or verification.What if I told you this in person and then walked away ? Would it be more or less believable ? I'm just a guy on the internet,why believe me ?I could lie to you easily and do it well maybe,how would you ever know ? I may even be able to pull it off face to face.Maybe you could too?

This is not meant to be mean or offensive in anyway just so you know.In my opinion I'm meerly stating the obvious.Just cause so and so said it does not make it true,it also does not make it a lie.Thats something only you can decide for yourself.There are people I trust and some I dont.For whatever reason,the same most likely as everyone.

[list]So ask youself.What is believable to you and why ?Is it the person ? is it the event/sighting ?Or is it from wanting to believe ?Or is it from the report sounding like whats considered normal ,if unspectacular ? Think about it thats all we can ask of ourselves.

Jim,
The only thing I can say is that there are bogus reports submitted. I know, we get them all of the time. However, none of them get posted on MY website until they are investigated. At the very least, this entails a very detailed phone conversation. You can usually separate the BF from the BS over the phone. There are many reports that I get that don't see the light of day because they are either outright BS or after talking to the witness, you can tell if they are making it up. If the report is recent (within the last 24 months or so), we investigate it onsite with the witness. We also interview them in person as well. We have trained law enforcement personnel who are skilled at this.

That's not to say that some don't slip through the cracks. Invariably some do. We are dealing with anecdotal evidence here. We are not employing polygraph tests, nor are these witnesses visiting a local Justice of the Peace and swearing on a bible to the truthfulness of their story. You can only do so much. I can tell you that if a report is on my website, I feel that there is some truth to it. There are a couple posted that I have added disclaimers to that state they are suspect. I would rather do that than as other websites do, post a report then remove it if it is questionable.

Craig

Wow, Jim.

The seeds of doubt have been planted. Lets see what they blossom into.

The only argument I'd have here jim is that I still believe that it is possible to decipher the truth in any report by asking ALOT of questions, then reading carefully the responses by those involved. If we do enough of this, any inconsistencies or bogus info seems to leak out. It may take a while, but it usually does. If the claims remain solid and consistent, then we have to take it a step further, and possibly investigate in person. A story is just that- a story, and I agree with you, there are lots of them out there. I think we still need to take every story at face vaue, until we can dissect it thoroughly. If we dismiss every wild claim as bullshit, we might miss the one true story and investigation that could crack the mystery. It certainly is no easy task!

I totally relate to what Jim is saying. Almost every 'report' I read I can discount in my mind.....and then when so many stories end up being hoaxes and it seems that for whatever reason there ARE alot of people making stuff up....

Well those are the days when I decide its all a myth perpetuated and helped along by hoaxers... :rolleyes:

How many reports of 'DNA' and 'bigfoot is living on my farm' and false photos and blobs does it take for me to think "what the heck?". How many 'near misses' and stories that disappear later. Or whos facts are changed?

Its very frusterating to me. There are a few reports that sound very real and some folks on this board who I see no duplicity in. That gives me the little to go on......I just don't understand why so many stories and hoaxes....

So many things are suspicious to me......

great post, Jim- reads like so many other "real" reports...
Last week while hiking Stone Mtn I shot some video of a treeline 100 ft away and added some dialogue"he's right there, don't you see him? On the left, on the left, there he is!!". If presented on the internet how many people would claim to see something and draw circles?

I had a picture of something under a bridge that looked just like one once. It looked so much like one that I had to look twice to figure out that I knew it was not one, cause when I took the picture I knew it was not there. Now if I was wanting to hoax something I could have put that picture up there and then told you it was one, But it was not real. I don't do that cause I want you to believe me when or if I ever get the real thing.

Now I know there is a lot of false reports put out there and it makes it very hard to figure out which ones are real or which ones are not, but isn't that what we are trying to do is figure out which ones are real? Like ecwool says, we are suppose to figure it out and see by talking to them and most of the time we can see if they are talking sense or not. I alway think if I know someone enough I should know if that person is telling the truth or not. I think as far as telling the truth if we know someone well enough or get to talking to them enough to get to know them we should be able to tell if it is true or not. I know some reports I have are true or think they are because of the people themselves are very reputable people. I only believe you because we know you Jim and I hope you would not ever lie to me! That means a lot to us and we can respect you and think you would not lie to us. If you did then I would not ever listen to you again. Most of the time we can find out if someone lies to us. They will not keep the same story twice and you can tell when they tell it again. Now as for someone we don't know we have to give them time to see if it is a lie and give them the respect to see for a little while before we dismiss that as a fake. It takes time to find out things, and yes sometimes it does take longer than than we want to wait!

My 2 cents worth! For what ever its worth!

This is the good stuff, the stuff that makes you think..

And, this illustrates exactly why ONLY hard evidence is going to make me a believer in a report...even one of my own.
Without it, any report is just that, anectodal at best, and usless as "proof" of anything.
Another reason it is so very frustrating when people make claims of having evidence, pictures and such, and then refuse to produce anything, instead tossing out the "you are mean, quit attacking me" stuff when anyone asks to see it.
For the very reasons Jim illustrated, plain reports will never really be more than an interesting INDICATION that something MIGHT have been in an area. That is why hard, direct questioning of physical evidence reports of any kind, by ANY person, should be done. And, why I am very suspect of any person, or group, that makes such claims and then pulls the "I will only show it if you come in person" or "if you don't unquestioningly accept what I say, you are attacking me personaly" or similar things.
I have had thoughts along the lines of Jim's recently, ever since the whole robo incident.
Heck, I have a couple of incidents that rate as interesting, one of which is on the bfro. Until now, I had mentioned it only to a couple of people, mainly for the reason that is has no inherent proof value...I claim no pictures, just recolection of tracks seen in mud. I also have some pictures of strange tree twists...which I WILL POST, and won't make anyone come to my home to see....but other than my word that I found them in the woods, how do you know I didn't just break trees and photograph them myself? You don't.
Which again shows why any claim of real physical or photographic evidence HAS to go beyond the "I trust them, so they are proof" level, and into the realm of solid questioning, and open presentation of such evidence for as many people to look at as possible.
If you have only a story, then tell it or not, but don't expect it to be accepted as proof of anything to anyone other then yourself, cause it just aint.. You may KNOW after it happens, but we weren't there, so we don't.
If you have pictures, show the world, and let the chips fall where they may. IF they are real, then at worst, you will have a mix of believers and doubters. IF they are fake...they will be found out.
If you have physical evidence, be up front, tell where it is being tested, how its being tested, when it's being tested, and don't fall into the "come see it yourself" mode.
If you don't wish to do any of the above, just don't bother,
But if you do come forward and then fail or refuse to back up your claims, then don't complain when people don't jump on your bandwagon, and even have reason to doubt your claims.
After all, the seed of doubt can only be planted by the person(s) making the original claim....Don't want the doubt, then don't plant the seeds.
Like Jim says..any one who has followed this subject for a while could, with just a bit of thinking, make up a very good, very diffult to disprove story. That again is why such storys will never be anything more, just storys.
And it is also why claims of Proof have to be backed up, or else the claims to me are worse then nothing at all.

AND NOW, THE OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER...Everyone who I have p**** off with the above rant, please read this
I have no reason to think that any given claim of a sighting by the several here who have see bf, is false. For you who have see, congrats, as none of this other stuff, the need for proof or whatever, really applies to your personal beliefs. You now KNOW. I guess the way I should put this is that while I believe that you saw what you said you saw, I don't KNOW that you did, cause only you were there, so only you know for sure. Like I said, I have seen what I think may be tracks, but without photos, casts, or other evidence, that claim is really good only for me, and adds nothing to the greater study.
My point is that sightings are just that, sightings, and unfortunatly they don't prove anything at a scientific level, other than when taken as a whole the numbers of reports are difficult to say they are all made up, or mistaken. But on an individual basis, they are only proof to those people who directly experienced them.
Hence, my rant about claiming to have real, physical or pictoral evidence, but withholding it.
Even the recent claims of dna and such, I can't at all say are not true. But, I can say that when such claims are made, but then there is failure to produce any evidence or a refusal to show the alleged photographs, I maintain my right to scepticism, and my right to voice it.

this rant brought to you by the fine people at Gateway

Oh, and ps, I got some cool blob pics to put up with the tree break pics...who knows, maybe there are space-time portals up in the trees?

The problem that I have with the approach that everyone on these forums takes is that everyone deep down seems overly skeptical about if bigfoot even exists.

If you have had sightings, evidence, or experiences then you KNOW that bigfoot exists. That should be the reason you come to these forums or at least have an interest in this subject. If you have no knowledge of this subject then read, question and learn.

The ideal situation in coming into a forum like this is not to determine if someone's story is true or not. It's like Jim has pointed out, anyone could fake a story or sighting. It is not the veracity of the person reporting the sighting itself that should be questioned. This gets into the realm of trying to determine someones honesty and any reporting is going to be subjective unless a body was actually hauled out.

Now when you have someone who wants to talk about all the fine points involved in this field and that person talks about their experiences or sightings or whatever as a jumping off point and instead of getting into the conversation of "bigfoot's possibly using spears" everyone gets into the business of trying to make a subjective sighting a fact by questioning the tellers veracity. It simply cannot be done in most cases.

Or what about someone who has problems with bigfoot and wants to figure out how to get rid of them. Take the individuals out of the story and discuss the "issue" how would these people get rid of a rogue bigfoot. If someone shoots a bigfoot and has blood evidence don't get your knickers in a knot waiting for it. If they haven't produced the evidence then don't dwell on it. Don't give a possible hoaxer more power by getting so excited. Until they put up the evidence then there should be nothing to talk about. I don't think everyone should "find" something to talk about by attacking the people involved. Just let it go. There actions speak for themselves without alot of muckracking.

Now if folks took the "report" and put their experiences together and talked about things they had seen or suspicions they have had that is what should be done. Not a personal attack on the one telling the story. It is basically impossible to determine if a story is truth. Move on. Take the individual out of the "issue" and discuss how or why this "type" of report or evidence fits in with other information we know. Talk about how it is like others. Talk about anything other than the person making the report. Most reports are pretty much the same. Talk about other reports in this area and how it affects the people and other animals in the area.

Some people truly need just to talk about their experience simply because it can be so frightening and traumatic. When a person leaks out or comes out with a story they should have a receptive audience that listens and doesn't try to make a subjective decision on the truthfulness of the story. Everyone is capable of doing that personally without attacking the individual in public. Just think how humiliating this must be. What does anyone gain from this? The only thing that happens is that people read these "attacks" and clam up and valuable information and cammaderie on this subject ends. I think that is probably the goal of alot of people out there.

Another thing that really really gripes me about forums in general is the name calling, and attacks on people who are handicapped. There are people out there who really enjoy this hobby and even though they don't write with the expertise you would like it is just cruel to dismiss these folks. There are also probably young kids who have discouvered this hobby. The lack of sensitivity is appalling at times. There is simply no reason to discount someones story simply because they don't write or communicate well. Comments like loon, deaf/mute, whacko, blind, etc....
The reason these comments are made is because the person making them obviously has self esteem issues.

People who are handicapped lack the same kind of cammaderie and ability to socialize successfully for the most part and a hobby like this keeps their adrenalin up and makes them feel important and part of something. What does it cost anyone to make a conscious decision to be polite versus acting like an asshole?

Our humanity is what SHOULD define us as a species. When I see people acting like savages it becomes all too clear how close we really are related to the animal kingdom.

goldie

I'm gonna be watching for jim to be discreetly dropping a couple of firecrackers into the camp fire while no one is looking... sneaky jim... I'll be watching now... you sneaky guy you... I love it!

I am very impressed with this thread! This is great stuff! Thanks jimbo, you are too cool!

Reading jim's post, I had a few things I wanted to say, but nightwing and goldie said most of it for me...

nightwing said it all when he said "That again is why such storys will never be anything more, just storys."

And I believe goldie's assessment of this aspect of society is right on target!

I stand humbled... and that's tough to do...

But I feel like I have them both at a disadvantage... and it makes me uncomfortable for some reason... I wish they, all of you for that matter, could have seen and heard what I saw and heard...

I first came to this site not long after bipto launched it... I had questions in my mind before this place, but many had been answered before I came here... so I must admit I do sort of take these things for granted... I don't have any questions regarding the possibility of their existence left to answer...

But I do have many questions regarding their lives, behavior and habitat left to answer... and that's a big reason I stick around... that, and to give a select few who deserve it, a little grief... but also praise and admiration to those deserving also... who is deserving? Well, that's subjective... isn't it?

So I see every report such as the one jim made in much the same light... Is it real? Who cares... what does it really mean either way? Except to know where these guys are at a given time... yahoo, big deal... they are always on the move to some extent... Ever tried to catch a single goldfish in a huge tank? Next to impossible and you can see him!

No, for me to try to determine the veracity of anything regarding a report like that is much a waste of time... unless the sighting is very near my area... ok, so call me selfish, sorry!

Wow! What a thread this is turning out to be! Jim, all I can say buddy is, "You da man!!!" This thread is just the broom that these forums have been needing to help sweep out some of the crap that has pervaded it recently. (And Bipto, it's already in the greatest hits thread. )

The points made by Nightwing and Goldie are absolutely outstanding. Goldie, I'm humbled by your post. I've been guilty of the same crap that you are pointing out. I was told by a good friend when I first became involved in investigations that alot of the time this is a personality game, like it or not. I wish that it wasn't true but sometimes you just can't help yourself. That tiny little reptile brain that still remains in all of us simply reacts without thought and if we allow it to dictate our responses it can sometimes be a bad thing. When it comes to snatching your hand off of a hot stove plate, it's good. Outside of that, its not really worth a damn for complicated thought processes nor is it meant to be.

There's been quite a bit of personal conflict involved within some of these threads lately and I've got the feeling I'm not alone in seeing this. If you are reading this thread and you think some of these comments might be directed at you, I would suggest taking a good long look in the mirror because they very well may be.

As for myself, I've been doing quite a bit of thinking about this lately and asking myself alot of questions. The point Goldie made about kids getting into bigfoot research as a hobby really hit home with me. I was fascinated with bigfoot as a kid and I think that anything we, as investigators and enthusiasts can do to promote a healthy interest in the subject among children is a noble cause. After all, once this species is finally documented, won't it be up to future generations to be the conservators of these creatures and make sure that there is room for them in this ever changing world? We don't really make a good impression when we're firing verbal arrows back and forth at each other. IMO, a kid would look at some of the recent behavior on these forums and decide they'd be better off just going back to that video game they were playing earlier.

And as far as belittling someone simply because they aren't out "in the field" on a regular basis...folks, tell me one person that is involved in bigfoot research that is. Just one person. That's all. Who is that elusive hermit that does nothing but roam the woods communing with sasquatch? They may very well exist, I'm not saying they don't, but none of us will ever hear from them if it is so. Why? Because they're out in the woods doing full-time research and not taking time to sit on their own asses behind a computer and post about all these "do-nothing" armchair researchers! I swear, I do believe if someone were to say "armchair researcher" like it was a derogatory term to my face, at worse I'd knock them on their ass and at best I'd dress them down in front of everyone within earshot, maybe both.

Now, there are people that should be shunned within this community. Like it or not, they've made their beds and they're going to have to lie in them. The thing we all need to remember is not to simply slam-dance on someone and lable them a hoaxer or a liar simply because their story doesn't fall into the category of what we, as individuals, consider believable. However, as I've said before, once it is validated that someone is a fraud, shun them and never allow them the chance to try and sucker others with their BS. But, I guess we should all try to do that in a professional manner, no matter how hard that may be at times.

And that's all I've got to say about that (for now).

Anectotal evidence, for the most part, is what science relies on before the body comes in. In the case of the Giant Pandas of China, they were written about for 2 thousand years before one came into scientific hands. The Mountian gorilla, same thing, local natives had stories of them before a body came out.

Sasquatch, in native legends for centuries before the arrival of european man, continue today.

Yes, a body is "hard" evidence, but until one comes in, we have to rely on reports, and strain out the hoaxs, for there certainly are some in there. But most people are honest, and trusting. Some try to take advantage of that, and i say "Boo and shame " on them.

Goldie, good rant, i agree

[The problem that I have with the approach that everyone on these forums takes is that everyone deep down seems overly skeptical about if bigfoot even exists.]

Hey Goldie
Great post. It gave me a lot to think about. First of all I do believe in Bigfoot existants. My belief is based on two reasons. 1 . I read an article on the footprints of bf haveing a hinge towards the heel. It was either Dr. Bendinagle or Dr. Meldrum , i dont remember which and im to lazy to go look it up, that made the statement. 2 . Is jimmy chilcutts opinion on dermal ridges.

Now what I am skeptical of is the alledged BF behavior. For instance TREE KNOCKS. I have heard them twice in the last year myself, but I didnt see what made the sound. There for in my opinion they are possible and somewhat probable. But i cant say for a fact that BF made the sound. Limb twist, tree bows and teepees im very skeptical of. Bigfoot raiding freezers? Im very skeptical even though there has been several reports of this happening. These are just a few things I am skeptical of Goldie. I guess u might say I just dont understand all i know about them critters.
peg

Mmmmmm, if you guys are saying that goldies' post is correct, then you want noone to question? That smacks of a cult to me....

We must have had a sighting or experience to be here? Then bipto shouldn't have even started this forum I guess...

I am confused by goldies' post....noone on this board, except for a few who were quickly booted by our fearless leader, has ever made fun of anyone in a cruel fashion, let alone someone with disabilites? What the heck? Did I miss something?

No I have never had a sighting and most on this board have not. Bipto has always welcomed skeptics and those who have actually seen this creature to post side by side.

Yes, folks get heated sometimes....but this is the only forums I have found where its usually handled pretty well.

Some of us like to goof around and have fun, but we try to be fair. Although I think there prob is something out there that fits the description of what we call 'bigfoot'. I think this creature, if it exists, is very very rare.

There have been many many hoaxes perpetrated upon those who take this seriously. I cannot understand what the pull is for those who do these things. But the fact is ALOT of bigfoot lore is a bunch of bunk, so I am not going to remove my brain and blindly believe everything said. The forums exists to question. I do not like people ridiculing those who say they saw something or getting mean. But neither should we believe blindly.

Noone is an expert on a creature that noone has been able to prove is out there. Everything has to be examined closely.

That being said, some threads lately have been hostile and unbecoming of the forums.....we do not need to insult each other.

I wasn't gonna post (where have I heard that before ),
but I read Goldies post a few times and well...

I'm with Msfit on this one. Thanks for typing what I was thinking.

Mere acceptance without the critical question is for the MG crowd...

Hmmm…well, you got me to thinking Msfit. That’s a dangerous proposition.

I can’t speak for Goldie and I don’t presume to but I would like to point out some things in her post that I believe may be getting misconstrued. (Goldie, I hope you don’t mind me dissecting your post and please feel free to correct me where I’m wrong.)

The problem that I have with the approach that everyone on these forums takes is that everyone deep down seems overly skeptical about if bigfoot even exists.

Granted, I’m a bit confused by this statement but I think what Goldie means is that some people come on to the different forums for no other reason than to try and debunk the folks who claim to have had encounters. Perhaps building up their own egos by being self-appointed “expert” skeptics.

If you have had sightings, evidence, or experiences then you KNOW that bigfoot exists. That should be the reason you come to these forums or at least have an interest in this subject. If you have no knowledge of this subject then read, question and learn.

I don’t see this as an “uninvite” to anyone who hasn’t actually seen a bigfoot, I see it as striking to the heart of the matter concerning skepticism. Of course, most people who are interested enough to venture into these forums have at least a rudimentary knowledge of bigfoot but the “read, question and learn” portion of this statement say it all. In other words, don’t come into a forum with your mind already made up that this is all a bunch of BS. Skepticism is the lifeblood of bigfoot research, IMHO.

The ideal situation in coming into a forum like this is not to determine if someone's story is true or not. It's like Jim has pointed out, anyone could fake a story or sighting. It is not the veracity of the person reporting the sighting itself that should be questioned. This gets into the realm of trying to determine someones honesty and any reporting is going to be subjective unless a body was actually hauled out.

OK, with this statement I agree and disagree. As an investigator, it is tantamount that you determine the veracity and credibility of the witness. If you can’t do that, you may as well not bother with the investigation. However, as Goldie states, if you don’t have a body in tow, then all reports are subjective.

Now if folks took the "report" and put their experiences together and talked about things they had seen or suspicions they have had that is what should be done. Not a personal attack on the one telling the story. It is basically impossible to determine if a story is truth. Move on. Take the individual out of the "issue" and discuss how or why this "type" of report or evidence fits in with other information we know. Talk about how it is like others. Talk about anything other than the person making the report. Most reports are pretty much the same. Talk about other reports in this area and how it affects the people and other animals in the area.

I completely agree with one exception. If the person making the report is proven to have lied or hoaxed what they report (Robo), then they have most definitely earned the right to be talked about personally.

Another thing that really really gripes me about forums in general is the name calling, and attacks on people who are handicapped. There are people out there who really enjoy this hobby and even though they don't write with the expertise you would like it is just cruel to dismiss these folks. There are also probably young kids who have discouvered this hobby. The lack of sensitivity is appalling at times. There is simply no reason to discount someones story simply because they don't write or communicate well. Comments like loon, deaf/mute, whacko, blind, etc....
The reason these comments are made is because the person making them obviously has self esteem issues.

Now, maybe it’s because I lurk around on a pile of forums that I understand where Goldie is coming from here. It doesn’t happen on BFF (and it won’t) but I have seen some very, very vicious personal attacks against some people on the Network54 pop-up wonderlands. I have seen people slammed for being handicapped, for living on a low income or government assistance, etc., ad nauseum. It is really disgusting. You can disagree with someone, even heatedly and passionately, without resorting to insulting their station or situation in life. That’s just low-bred.

All in all, I believe a lot of Goldie’s observations are coming from other forums. Not this one but Goldie, feel free to tell me I’m a twit and correct me if I’m wrong.

OK, so i went back ad reread Goldies post, and reread it again .... and again

I cant find the part about "unquestioning acceptence" or "cult-like acceptence" or mary green for that matter .... is my PC screwing up so badly that thats not comeing thru ???

<<<*riled rant section* >>>

Disclaimer not intended to piss off any individual, i'm ranting to air again, pay me no attention what-so-ever

I have SEEN them, i KNOW they exist, if i cant explain it clear enough for you (not directed at any person in particular) thats just tough.

I for one, try to do the best interview with witness or alleged witness. There are times when you can not go to them to actually see the face the eyes, or the skin on the body, to tell if they are lying or being untruthful, or just plain nuts. SO, you get good at sorting it out over the phone. There is an art to it, yes, but you can learn how.

I am getting soooo tired of trying to prove that these animals exist, and would greatly prefer to discuss what Goldies saying, the animal itself, compare reports, behaviours, and to Hell with trying to sway peoples opinion one way or the other about the existence of them.

If i put out information, and you dont believe it, ask questions, yes, if you dont choose to accept it as "my opinion" or as "my observations" or not, thats up to you.

"Go ahead and judge me, but keep that judgement to yourself." - unknown biker

(i need a beer or twenty now, thanks for letting me rant like a lunatic, been a harsh day)

Goldie, great post, extremely thoughtful. My outing to Stne Mtn and looking at my own "hoaxed" sighting later served only to reinforce my own doubts as to the veracity of most of the reported "sightings" on the web. I could start my own web site with nothing more than the 15 seconds of video I shot last weekend and possibly sway people to donate or volunteer time and effort and create a colossal waste of time. Make no doubt, I believe Sas is real for reasons I have stated before, but the internet breeds fools, the best kind, those that want to believe, and I am one...

Thanks to Rob and Fishbone for clarifying what I was trying to say.

Let me reemphasize that I don't think a person should read every story and swallow it hook, line and sinker. That is why hoaxers love this whole arena.

I just don't think that when someone comes in with a story and that person has bad grammer or even social skills that the person should be treated rudely because he or she was not able to provide irrefutable evidence to back up their story. It is just not going to happen. The BFRO story regarding the spear throwing bigfoot is a perfect example. Go back and read some of the comments on this forum and you will understand what I mean. And then the report was pulled down. Was it pulled down because people passed judgment on the credibility of the report because of the grammer? That is what it appeared like to me.

My first comment about people seeming overly skeptical is because everyone goes on the defense everytime a new piece of information comes along that they feel like they are being asked to past judgment on. This defensive posture towards new or different information does more harm, in my opinion, than the hoaxers do.

I understand that there are huge degrees of expertise in this field and for someone to come in without any knowledge it must be very hard for them to figure out if someone is pulling their leg. My suggestion is to read, read, read and get as much knowledge as you can and don't fear the hoaxers because that does nothing but give them the power they crave.

People just don't want to appear gullible. It should not be hard to respond in a polite way to someone without being someones mark.

If more reports and studies were done on specific areas and then these reports were made public, perhaps in the form of a journal then it would be easier for people to come to conclusions regarding certain basic facts. I think some of the discussions about how to catalog information are great and that perhaps this information should be made public by someone doing this kind of research. I've been studing and researching this subject for many years now and learn something new all the time.

Of course. if someone says they saw bigfoot wandering around in downtown New York they should get the boot for being obnoxious. I just wish people would not emote like they were St. Peter at the gates of Heaven everytime they read a report. Just relax my friends and try to ENJOY this fascinating hobby. Your enjoyment will spread to others. love goldie

Fair enough!

*hugs for goldie*

But Rob needs a beer....

Interesting topic Jim.

I don't think there is an easy answer to all this. It's like giving the meaning of life a summation which cannot be done.

This field consists of many different types of individuals who are here for different reasons. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. Some are here for devious intentions, to lie, hoax, make money off the gullible. Some are here for the attention, because they feel like they fit in with a group and long for the acceptance. Some are here because they saw something they don't understand and are looking for answers and others who might be able to help them with that. Some are here because they have dealt with something and have struggled to come to somewhat of an understanding of it and hope in conjunction with others to learn more. Some are here, because they have heard something could exist that might be the discovery of their lifetime and they hoping to be a part of that and help get some answers. Some are here because they are skeptical and want some proof to squelch their own skepticism because deep down there is a desire to accept the possibility. Some are here because they have nothing better to do. Some are here to prove to the world they saw what they saw. The list goes on and one with variances here and there. Some are here for the excitement, some for the commaraderie, some for the debate, some for the learning. It's endless because no two people are here for exactly the same reason, because no two people are alike.

I agree with a lot of statements made by Nightwing. I don't think you can listen to anything you hear as gospel. Everything should be taken as possible but not proven. I always leave a degree of skepticism open even when I lean toward believing an individual or story. I never fully believe anything unless I see it myself. In the end a story is just a story unless you were there. You can't know there is any truth to it at all unless you are shown the evidence to support it. And like so many have said here, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There are people I do believe more than others and some I actually trust, but only because they have earned my trust through difficult situations or other means on a personal one to one basis. Meeting and interacting with someone is the best way to get to know them and how trustworthy that person is. It's even harder when you are just talking with them online or a telephone and have never met them. There is only one person on this forum that I have not met and still completely trust and he knows who he is. As for the others, I have a level of trust for them, some more than others, but they are not beyond lying to me either which is why I won't ever "completely" trust them without meeting them on a one to one basis. Nor would I expect anyone here to trust me that way either.

As for witnesses with stories submitted to websites, they are just that, witnesses with stories, and since they are seeing something they don't understand...to take something they say as gospel without prior investigation is not doing yourself or this field any favors. When they say something that coincides with other research, then you have a factor to concentrate on, but still just a story as yet unverified until you or someone you trust can go check out the area for evidence themselves.

What a lot of people tend to forget is that what is fact for one is not necessarily fact for another. I can say that I have a flag on my monitor and that is a fact for me, but not for any of you guys because you can't see it for yourselves. For you it is still an unverified claim and I could even be lying about it. So some come in this field with the perception that they can share what they know and because it is the truth to them, it will be well received and accepted, but that is far from reality.
To get you guys to accept it, I might have to take a picture of the flag on my monitor and post it. That would do for some. But then someone somewhere still skeptical will say I might have photoshopped that flag on there and even though I didn't, that's quite possible if I was wanting to hoax it. It goes on and on.

I always used to judge people who weren't willing to stay and take the heat and show the evidence to be lying and running away to hide. Now I see and understand there is another view of this. Sometimes people who come in this field to share something get bombarded this way with skepticism over something they know to be true, they know they saw it with their own eyes. They don't have much in the line of evidence, but after getting swamped with accusations that they must be lying, they figure we aren't worth their time and they no longer feel we are worthy of sharing with.
So with these people, forcing the evidence is only hurting ourselves. There needs to be a balance of the treatment we give to individuals. Give ourselves time to know them before we call them liars. Give them the space they need to share with us in their own time. That can be hard to do sometimes I know. Patience is a virtue. And that goes both ways, as I would expect these people to realize the need to maintain their own patience in dealing with us skeptics and our questions.

I don't mean the ones claiming to have conversations while shaking hands with bigfoot and roast marshmallows with them or have them pooping in their barns every night, those people need to cough it up.
I am talking about the individuals who have had encounters that are possible that we might not consider the norm at first glance. I think we should take more time to listen to what they have to say. The ones claiming to have the evidence...well all I can say to them is if you have it and you actually come onto a public forum making claims about it, present it or go away.

I do believe there are different ways to handle individual claims and no two can be handled in exactly the same manner.
We IMHO should remain openminded and cordial, and yet skeptical and questioning of everyone who makes a claim in the beginning and see where it leads from there.

What gives the honest people a bad name and makes us all so touchy and quick to react are the hoaxers like Janice Coy, Charles Hallmark, Ray Wallace and others. Which is why I spend a lot of time trying to help rid this field of disinformation.

I got accused recently of "being a troublemaker and searching out trouble" on the other forums by a member who posts here. At first I took offense to this, but after thinking about it, I can see where he might get that impression.
Because I must say that I have grown so tired of the lies and bullshit associated with this field that I do tend to jump in it when I see it. I also go read all the other forums out there and I guess in a way that means I am seeking it out.
Why you might ask? Because the hoaxers and liars in this field make it hard for anyone to be believed. Hell if I get bit by a bulldog enough times, I am going to start avoiding all bulldogs and group them the same. I see that happening a lot in this field, one person is not believed because we've all been bitten one too many times by a similar bulldog. So I find myself seeking out people who I know to be lying or hoaxing and spend a good amount of my time exposing them for what they are. If I know they are lying, why not expose them, why not share what I know to be the truth about them?

I get labelled a troublemaker for doing this. I hear all the arguments about how they are just "misindentifying" or "not purposefully lying" or "are just mistaken". Bullshit is bullshit and misinformation is misleading and has positively no place in this field. These people who are misindentifying or mistaken are not apparently intelligent enough to be researching and therefore should not be here doing it. I guess I feel this field is much too important to just let it go as I'm told I should.

I think I strayed from the topic but I felt I needed to say that as well.

I guess all in all my bottom line is that I believe there exists an unknown primate out there that we need to band together to try to figure it out, and I am most skeptical of the other "bigfoot believers" in this field as I believe we all should be.

Pssst.....

Arky your post put it all into perspective for me...thank-you...its was kinda healing for me......

A great deal of worthy discussion here. One of the reasons i "lit" here after coming across the site. As most I take reports, postings, etc. for what they are. Discount some, ignore a few, and believe others. Some based on the person, others on backup reports/discussions. I seen one as a kid. Not reported to BFRO...happened to long ago and it would just be a hash mark on the "IL" column. But what I do gain from this site is knowledge. Just that and no more...

Its hard to Bull s**t a Bullshiter aint it Arky. Go gettem girl!!!!!!!!
peg

Hmmm...... I keep meaning to post on whats been discussed in this thread,based on the posts by all so far.Everytime I go to do this a new and wel thought post enters the mix,forcing me to rethink what I was about to post.Not that thats bad it just makes me loose track of what I was going to say.... So yet again I find myself off into the wild blue yonder,with more than a few conflicting thought going round my head.Which I guess should be the point of this thread in the first place..to make you think.As Arky stated above(if not in these exact words) there are as many reasons for people hoaxing in this Field as there are those of us to search for what we designate as the truth.

And maybe you can be a skeptic and believe at the same time.I personally dont like the word believer.To me it implies a belief in something that may not exist.I "think" bigfoot exists due to the evidence presented Dermal ridges,some video and pics,track cast and unidentified hairs and othe samples,as well as sighting reports.Some of you have actually seen bigfoot,I'm envious of that.I really am.At least for you the visual confirmation to the rest of what has been learned or said is there.For the rest(some) of us however......

Evidence is the hardest fact to dispute,especially regarding claims of the fantastic.Bigfoot in itself is a fantastic enough claim in itself dontcha think ? But the evidence is there in all manner mentioned above and some not mentioned.What seems to prevail lately in all form, from the paranormal to the non-paranormal yet bordering on the edge of unbelievabe is all around us.Here are claims of multiple sightings and encounters (some with evidence ,some not).DNA samples that seem to be goading us on and pulled away just as quickly.Videos and pictures that can withstand the scrutiny and others that may as well show the local drunk on a bender from the lack of clarity involved.Smoke and mirrors all to often.....

Of course that leaves the sighting reports,so many ,so much time involved going from coast to coast and backwards through time.Whats real what isn't ?Many were drawn here from thier own experiences and encounters from the scream heard in the night to the ,full fledged sighting which leaves little doubt in your mind.All leave varying degrees of uncertainty and doubt in our minds.From whats next ? to what was that ? Some are investigated thouroghly,others are the product of whimsy,or truth yet to be found.determing which is which seems to be our burden or our salvation as it happens.

[list]Warned ya my thoughts were jumbled. Not sure I made a bit of sense.If I did great.if not....Well thats just me anyway.It does prove that no matter our reason for being here there is a common ground involved ,despite the disagreements or differing views presented.I'll remain the skeptic,as will many I'm sure if not of bigfoot as a whole, then of what we feel comfortable embracing as real or true in our own minds.(or in mine at least).That still leaves alot to be desired,but at least it provokes thought and a form of comraderie that may not be found elsewhere.(hopefully this will make more sense if I reread it 2 or 3 more times )

I keep thinking about posting here too Jim, but at this point it'd just be repeating most of what's already been said anyway, so I will say: Well said, everyone!

Hey!! Who you callin' a bullshitter?
Ain't no bulls in this pasture, but I'll let that one go since it's you.

*the ones claiming to have conversations while shaking hands with bigfoot and roast marshmallows with them *

Wouldn't that be so AWESOME though !?!?!?!?!

Balance... i agree, we need that.

Well, once again Arky, I think you said it pretty darn good!!

Holy Mary Mother of Jesus! I'm gone for three freakin' days and see what happens!

I have no idea where to begin and so much has already been said...

Briefly:

1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Amen, sister! Shout it from the rooftops!

2) The force of my skepticism rises proportionally to a report's deviance from 'the norm'. That is, Jim's original report would be read by me with little thought since it reminds me of dozens I've read before. So what? I've said before that the existence of this creature is does not rely on any one report - not even the Patterson event. Then again, if the claimant is suggesting something truly remarkable has happened (you all know the reports I'm talking about) then it is only self preservation that dictates the need for truly remarkable evidence. This is a field rife with fraud and lies. Better men and women than I have been taken in by those who would hoax. Since I will probably never have a chance to meet those claiming the remarkable face to face, all I can do is question question question. It is what I would expect if the tables were turned. At the end of the day, the absolute best I can hope for is an 'x' in the 'Probably Happened' column. Most of the time, it's another 'Not Sure' or 'Probably Not'...

3) I agree that a report even as simple as Jim's example would proabably fall apart in follow-up. It's easy to post something like that to an anonymous web form but a different picture all together when someone calls you on the phone to talk about it.

4) Jim, I am so glad you started this thread!

Great stuff all. Guess I cant really add much but I will try. The view I have on this subject is coming from one who has seen a BF. I have encountered all kinds of garbage in my past, after stating my claim. That at first comes from the first people you tell. Friends and family. Then, if you are crazy enough or naive enough, you might mention it to acquaintances and the final step is to tell it to strangers on the internet. For the most part, you get some of the same responses: "It was something else, not a Bigfoot." "It was someone hoaxing you." "You were mistaken and didnt see what you thought you saw" "It was a bear" "You're just bullshitting me" "No way, there is no such thing as Bigfoot" "I would know cuz I know everything in the woods" "Nope, BF doesnt do that" "Nope, they couldnt be that tall" "Nope, that didnt happen cuz you would have been attacked." "Nope, not possible, BFs arent that smart." on and on it goes. My basic point is that when you do try to be honest and share your experiences, most people want to discount it cuz it goes against their personal beliefs about the subject. The most craziest argument I think I have heard is "BFs only reside in the Pacific Northwest." Uh, okay, whatever. :rolleyes: I think that skepticism is good in this field because, of course, there are a lot of hoaxers out there. But I must say that when the skepticism goes beyond questioning and starts into the smart-ass comments and flat-out refusal to even consider what you have to say then I will move on. Why? Because I have better things to do than to keep trying to convince others. I offer my info and that leaves others to question. Hopefully with some degree of respect. Hey, if you dont believe me than that's your perogative. If it's too hard for you to believe than dont believe it but if you can prove that I am a hoaxer then give it your best shot. If you find any discrepansies in anything I have said then feel free to ask about them. I am here offering myself even though I have no physical proof. I know that others may not believe and I expect that. As long as I am not treated like an asshole, I will stay and explain, as best I can. One thing others should realize is that it is hard to be a witness and deal with the same old "rude" comments. That's why I decided to share here, this forum seems to have some sensible, respectable people. Not like I have seen on other forums. Although I have to say that I was surprised by the Hanobia thread. I would have expected more questions and more tolerance and patience before the subject was locked. But hey, that's just my opinion.

That, as far as I can tell, is the best attitude you can have. Anyone who gets their undies all in a bundle because I or someone else may not be able to believe their experience needs to get over it. I can't meet very many of you face to face. The only way I have to judge, for the most part, is what someone writes on these pages. Sometimes, they've been interviewed by an organization or someone I have faith in, but usually it's just words on a screen. It's even harder to judge a report from another site. That's why I said the best I usually hope for is another check in the 'Probable' column...

I know if I ever had an experience I'd do the best I could to just throw it out there, answer all the questions, then let everyone decide for themselves before getting on with my life.

Goldie as to your quote I feel you misunderstood what I had stated and probably caused this reaction when I stated deaf/mute reports I simply meant the person reporting
Would not listen
Would not talk
Now as far as exploiting handicaps .....
I hope you don't think I would do this over a simple statement like this.
When someone acts as a child they are in return treated as a child in a language they can understand.Some bolder than others.With or without physical limitations.

Please forgive me if this statement offended you in anyway.

But some of the trash I've seen of late really does
resemble those remarks ....If I'm an asshole for that
so be it.
But you are way far from the truth.

Robert

Robert,
Thanks for explaining what you meant. My concern is that so often it seems that I see people coming in trying to join the forums and they don't come across with good communication skills etc. I just feel that they should receive the same type of respect that anyone would get and sometimes that requires patience and understanding on peoples part.
Sometimes it is easy to assume that the person is "faking" the communication problems and trying to hoax people and my concern is that the assumption could be wrong and in that case the resultant comments come across as very cruel when in reality they are being said as a defense mechanism when individuals feel their gullibility is at stake when they are being asked to beleive something "extraordinary".
Yes that will happen many times in this field. We will always be pranked. Instead of responding to a supposed prankster if folks take the high road then that assures that we won't be accidently cruel to an innocent person.
I believe in the good of everyone Robert and this includes you. Thanks for responding. goldie

Ok Goldie
just didn't want to upset anyone.

I have moderated message boards since 1999 and at first
was very welcoming to anyone who posted ....
time and trouble have changed my outlook on Internet personalities.

People with real life tendencies tend to let some of that bleed
into their Internet Personalities they create.
Some good . Some Bad. Some undeserving.

I wish the defensive person
a true line of defense.
The attacker
an answer to their quest.
Just don't allow it to ruin your real world.
It can and does for some people.
Such a waste.

Robert

Robustes, I have never seen a Bigfoot (yet!), but I'm convinced of their existence. In fact, I KNOW they exist. I know lots of people, like you, who have had one or more, sometimes many more, sightings. These are normal, decent, intelligent people. Some of them do not want it known publicly either. That alone would speak against publicity-seeking.

I can't imagine why anyone would create a Bigfoot hoax. What's the point? I honestly don't understand it. Do they want to be "in with the in-crowd" of those fortunate enough to have had sightings? Is it attention-seeking behavior? Is it just for the personal pleasure of getting people to believe a lie? Beats me.

But I don't have to have seen one to believe. There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence over hundreds of years, including the Patty film. Why is it that lots of people who have no problem with believing the existence of UFO aliens could have such a problem with an unknown, F&B primate? Beats me again.

JimF, I tip my hat to you for one of the BEST posts made on ALL these websites over all these years & for the rest of the posters EXCELLENT & of course to The Fearless Leader Bipto of this Forum as someone else said !!!!

I come out to these BF websites & forums because I believe there is a flesh & blood & breathing being as they are called BF, Sasquatch etc. One thing I think we may try to remember is the utmost respect for a being who is elusive as the wind, who lives in remote areas (but not all the time) maybe so they can just live their lives in Peace as they probably have for thousands of years. The REAL encounters over the years that we human beings have with them is I believe we venture at times where they live or where they get their food or water, yes people have encounters at their homes or farms also (again I stress the REAL encounters & sightings) because for them it is another way of getting food, just put a dish with fresh corn on a table in your yard in the morning & leave it overnight & some animal, bird etc. will now have a free meal, its the same for livestock, I believe what BF see's is just another source of food so they can live (of course its not seen that way by the people who own the livestock) I know this may seem that I have gotten off the original posted statement that Jimf made but its why we are out here to explore to understand to learn to once & for all crack the Mystery of BF, BUT I truly hope we MUST think at the same time what ripple effect & changes we will make forever to these beings once this Mystery is solved, they are not going out of their way to look for us but WE for them. I know I may be new to this Forum but I just want to throw this in, yes I do sometimes come on strong during these posts, I am NOT out here to be somekind of Avenging Angel but there are alot of BSer's, hucksters etc. etc. in the BF community thats why when you ask the average person about BF they can give you a weird look & say they have only read about BF in some Supermarket Tabloid. I guess what I am trying to say is when people keep coming back again & again & PROCLAIM as I call them "Breakthrough of the Century" incidents, sightings or whatever, & then come back each time, with no evidence at all or some last minute explanation why they can or will not show the evidence until it is on to the next so-called "Breakthrough of the Century" incident, as I always say "you get what I mean here".

Once again keep up the Good work people, by giving all of us more "Food for Thought" !!!!!!

Why do people try to pull off hoaxs . Hmmmm

Well, perhaps your right Ella, to be with the "in crowd" ,the groovy people ...
Some may even get a kick outta fooling people, to have them believe a lie.
To get a laugh at the expense of others .
To boost thier own ego.
To gain status among the "groovy people".
Some people are habitual liars (and these are the hardest to catch in a lie)
Some just love to lie.

Why do people with oodles of money shoplift ? They certainly dont NEED to ..

Human behavior, harder to figure out than a sasquatch sometimes