Hey folks, here's some food for discussion.

Just because something is possible, doesn't make it probable. However, people like the late cryptozoolizist Grover Krantz argued for the probability of existence of Sasquatch. Jane Goodall, one of the world's most distinguished primatologists has taken the same stand saying, "You'll be amazed when I tell you that I'm sure that they exist. The existence of hominids of this sort is a very real probability."

I believe the accumulated physical and anecdotal evidence that currently exists is enough to take a stand for probability (Not certainty).

According to Encarta, the word possibility means: maybe real or true: capable of being real, present, or true.

Probability means: something that is likely to be true or to exist.

Where do you stand concerning this issue? Do you think the existence of Sasquatch is just a simple possibility or a strong probability? Do you think Bigfoot is simply capable of being real; or do you think that it is likely to exist?

DTK

PS. Here's a picture to inspire you!

Click to view attachment

Highly probable that they exist and highly probable that the above picture is one of the goofiest I've seen in relation to depictions of this probable creature :laugh:. It looks like some type of yawn/growl is going on.

UGHhhhhhhhhh

A face only a mother could love!!!

Aw, I like it, even though it doesn't seem to be a Sasquatch.

Strong probability.

They probabiliy exist. Possibility leaves a way saying 'don't exist'.

Vance

Semantics are fun! I should have been a lawyer. It would have made my Dad happier.

I think it's more a probability than a mere possibility, and still not a certainty.

UGHhhhhhhhhh you don't like my Squatch? Or UGHhhhhhhhhh you don't like the topic? Just trying to interpret your semantics!

:laugh:



That's because you're from LA! This is the Northeastern Squatch, tall and thin, equipped with claws and all! It's probably no resemblance, but I thought it looked pretty cool anyway.

I'd say high probability they do exist....for a few reasons....

1) PG film. 2) Memorial Day video 3) Tons of reported sightings over many years, in several countries.

What? No casts?

Well, if I understand the question and the relevant terminology...

1.) Yes, it's a possibility that they exist in that their hypothetical existence doesn't violate any sort of law governing reality...if existent, they merely represent a species of mammal gone uncatalogued.

2.) As for probability...my own opinion typically shuttles between 60% yes/40% no; 60% no/40% yes; 55% yes/45% no; and so on.

Hey, I like your graphic, too. See, for a little while now, I've been working on a short story I intend to post here at the forum about what happens to someone who runs down a bigfoot, inspired by a thread from a while ago where we discussed just that, what we'd do, etc. I chip away at it a little each day, and part one is almost done and ready to post. In any event, when I saw that, my first thought was, "Hey, someone's illustrated what I'm writing!"

Cool! Are you going to include the part where I BBQ his ass with John Boy and Billys grillin' sauce?


:new_lmaosmiley: :laugh:

No, Wooley. I'd planned for you to be the character attached to the shoe, to which is attached the shoelace that is, in turn, witnessed hanging from the bigfoot's mouth just seconds before he noisely slurps it up and belches.

Next thing you know, you're on milk cartons.

:wink:

Possibility? Sure, there's always the possibility.

Probability? I dunno, bf has supposedly been around for centuries, thousands of sightings/footprints/encounters, yet there's still no definitive proof (as in an identified/classified specimen). As the years go by my probability meter registers less and less.

RayG

Certainty. For sure. No doubt whatsoever. 100%. Case-closed.

Now carry on.

Personal sighting?

RayG

My semantics go like this:

1) Anything is 'possible'. Now this is really just on a philosophical level. Anything you can propose, I can say how it could be 'possible'.

2) The practical meaning of 'possible'. To me it means that based on current human knowledge, there is no way to absolutely rule it out. This is to me where bigfoot falls. Here you just have to assess the odds of whether it is real or not until it is proven. Personally I think bigfoot is possible, but not all that probable. My interest is that I think it is much more probable than mainstream science believes. Think of it like this, Vegas is giving a 45 point spread against bigfoot being real, and I only give it a 7 point spread. So while I think it's less that even that he's real, I think it's more than the mainstream thinks. And I would take that points spread.

3) Probable to me means more than 50%. Such as if your car stalls, you might say, "It's possible it could be the ignition, and it's possible it could be the injectors, but I'm probably out of gas". It's based on past experience and knowledge of the car.

Excellent! We are not worthy... :notworthy:

I guess this particular topic does deal a bit in semantics, but Hunster's statement sums up my position in a single sentence. I can't go as far as as saying I believe Sasquatch exists with 100% certainty, as I've never been face-to-face with one, but--based on some of the evidence already mentioned, and the sheer abundance of physical and especially empirical evidence--I believe its existence to be a strong probability. I'm interested enough in the subject to devote the rest of my life to being involved in some form of scientific pursuit of this mystery. I'll be grateful if I at least make a few like-minded friends along the way.

Glad you enjoyed my "Squatch" Tim. I have a lot of fun making them in what little spare time I have had lately. If anyone else has Squatch artwork, please post it. I'd love to see it. I always enjoy creative renditions of the "Big guy."

I guess this topic is not going to be a real "hot" one, but feel free to post your stand anyway. I'm interested to see where others stand concerning their belief in Bigfoot.

DTK

PS. Here's another version of the same "Squatch," this time in daylight and in a different setting.

Click to view attachment

I would say probability. I love the picture of BF in the headlights of the vehicle.

We geeky statistics types always couch things in terms of probability, even when that probability is very small. So when I say that it's *possible* for them to exist, I really mean that there is a tiny probability that they exist, say 0-1%. This is very different than the casual use of "probable" which generally implies something that is likely as in:

"Hey Butthead - I think that chick wants you."

"Yeah, probably."

I put it in the "fully posso" but "less than 50% probo" category. Of course, I ain't never seen one in person. All I have to go on is what other people say they saw/found/experienced/etc...

Daegling did a pretty good job in discussing how it's possible that the entire phenomenon can be explained by hoaxing, misinterpretation, etc... I just have some difficulty ascribing 100% probability to the idea that centuries of reports can all be accounted for by fleeting glimpses of tree trunks, tall tales, practical jokes, etc... The least scientific of evidence - the anecdotal - is actually one of the most difficult things to completely dismiss, because of the volume of fairly mundane sighting and incident reports. Still, that possibility that all of Bigfootdom can be explained by something other than an animal weighs fairly heavily on my level of belief.

I'm reserving the 100% belief for when I get a clear look at a sasquatch with my own eyes, taking several consecutive strides, in a situation that leaves no room for misinterpretation. If that ever happens, you can tell me all you want about how I saw a dancing bear, or a tree trunk walking in front of me, or I was spooked by a giant ground squirrel. Or hoaxed by Penn and Teller. Or it was the ghost of Ray Wallace. Won't make a difference to me.

Frankly, though, if the photo in the original post doesn't convince me that Bigfoot is real, I don't know what will. :happy:

Kinda looks like that pose kids get when they really reeeeally have to pee. lol

I go along with the Probability they exist, but not with certainty of existence.

In regards to the picture included, paying special note to the apparent "Buck Teeth" on the subject. Are you sure this isn't a drawing of the "Wererabbit" being covered in another thread?

I'd say probable. For years I'd waver back and forth between less than 10% likely to over 75% likely, usually depending on how convincing the latest anecdotes read. Not entirely satisfying.

Then, a few years ago, I saw Henner Fahrenbach's statistical study of (mostly) John Green's footprint database.
That put me over the hump into the probable category. A bunch of misidentifications and hoaxes just aren't going to look statistically like a real animal population.

Any open minded skeptics with familiarity with life science statistics should read that paper.

Saskeptic, have you seen that one?

The possibility of a certainty is absolutely a non-probability. :wink:

t.

indubitably

(it came to mind, some cartoon character used to say that, and I've never used that word before, had to look it up)

This one?

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/papers/size1.html

This one's interesting too:

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/gill.html

If you've had a no-room-for-doubt-encounter, "probable", and "possible" are not even in the nomenclature: There exists instead, another factor:

You think you must be having some sort of delusion, even though you've never been delusional.

The problem is, that you're bucking the entire status quo by believing in what you've just seen, and you know damn well, that you will now be treated like someone who believes in cartoon characters.

I wish one would be brought in, even though it might be their undoing.
And even though it might unsettle some "expert".
You see, after our family had several encounters, I killed one ten years ago, thinking I would "show the world", and nearly had a mental collapse from the guilt of it, when I saw how close to a human it looked.
After years of amnesia, alcoholism, and numbness, I still am glad I didn't drag the thing out and subsequently ruin my kids lives, and brag about being a killer. Don't get me wrong, I Hunt- but this is different.
So, go on and discuss the probable, or possible thing, as if it's something trivial. And continue to lambast hapless people who have an actual story, but don't have any "proof". For their sake, I hope to God they don't kill one to make proof. I would pity them unless they are hit-men, or someone who can handle Homicide: Because that is exactly what it is.

I know that nobody means to be insensitve, or at least most decent people don't. But...
I kind of feel, like an old man who had a tattoo from Dachau removed from his arm, ( because it was too much to think about) listening to people decide whether or not there really was a holocaust.

I don't know how to respond to that Coastalyeti. Perhaps the question should be, how do we prove a person such as yourself is telling the truth and not does bf exist? If what you say is true, I sypathise with you tremendously. Of course I will have my doubts but that's human nature, especially when I don't know you or can't look you in the eye. All of you folks who have seen the real deal will know that guys like me are just blowing wind. I wish you could convince me... All the best,

t.

Yeah, it's kinda hard to drop a bomb like that here non-chalantly.

coastalyeti, I just read all your posts and can't be more intrigued. Please start your own other thread and unload every thought, experience, observation and speculation that you are willing to in there. You'll have my, and many others', undivided attention, I'm sure. And obviously the fiercest critiques, and critics, don't scare you in the slightest and I like that a lot.

How are we supposed to respond to something like this Scotto? What are we supposed to think? Maybe forums aren't the way for folks outside of the bf mainstream to make decisions on whether this animal exists or not? I'm tired of yelling bullshit. Let someone else do it.

t.

Edited to say I re-read all of coastal's messages too. They are well written and interesting.

Wow, Bigfoot with skinny chicken thighs and knees... but the best thing about the picture is the belly-button. It must be an "outtie" by the way it shows through all that hair.. lol

(PS: your car doesn't have a rear view mirror... )

I think it's probably a possibility

Terry,

I wasn't saying "bullshit" or anything of the sort. After reading something like that, I really didn't know how to respond, other than to say it was like a bomb being dropped.

A lot of us have been waiting for somebody like him to come forward, and say "yeah, I did shoot one, and I'll take you right to where I buried it."

That would make a lot of dreams come true. I for one want to hear more about this. Coastal does have some great posts, and knows a good deal about the subject.

coastalyeti,

You mention your family; what do they think about this?

Sunflower

[quote name='coastalyeti' date='May 3 2006, 07:00 PM' post='312656']
You see, after our family had several encounters, I killed one ten years ago, thinking I would "show the world", and nearly had a mental collapse from the guilt of it, when I saw how close to a human it looked.
After years of amnesia, alcoholism, and numbness, I still am glad I didn't drag the thing out and subsequently ruin my kids lives, and brag about being a killer. Don't get me wrong, I Hunt- but this is different.


Coastalyeti I'm calling your hand. Only because you said what you said publicly and because that's what we're all here for. Tell us please about your experience killing a sasquatch, what happened, what it looked like and where it happened.

t.

Ok, let me get this straight.. Ten years ago you say that you shot and killed a Bigfoot but you did not tell anyone because you didn't want to ruin your children's lives? Ruin it how? By having a father that is a permanent part of history? With fame? With a future of financial security for your family? Not to mention having the opportunity of making a highly significant contribution to science and mankind. After you shot the creature what did you do with it? Did you bring it home and preserve it? Where is it now? Where are the pictures you took of the body? If you did bring it home how did you manage to move it? Were you alone when it was shot? If not, who was with you that can verify your claim? And by the way - Amnesia? I can assure you that if I was to shoot and kill a Bigfoot I would not forget about it. I'm not saying it didn't happen but you did make quite a significant statement with absolutely nothing to back it up. No, wait, let me change that, unless you can show some evidence of your claim I don't (can't) beleive it happened.

Sorry, Califb, I do deeply respect your posts. I really admire your usual way of cutting through the sentiment and BS, and calling for cards on the table. I certainly doubt this guy actually killed a squatch. But, I have to say, I see a few problems with your questions here. I grew up country, rural. At a time (like most of US history) when money was much tighter than today. High technology was within the reach of most families middle class or above. But my parents would NEVER trust me with a camera. A gun, yes. They would and did. Ability to secure and prepare your own food was very much looked up to in all previous times in our history.

Most things I have done that are in any way spectacular, I did for myself, not for public opinion. A little different than most people look at things today, at least urban people. I figured that I had something they severely lacked. They could put me down, call me a braggard, a liar, but that only showed how wrong, weak, confused they were. All that was important was that I could look them straight in the eye and say "Yes, I do have Bronze Buillions!". Several questions that you asked assume that he has a world view similar to your own. I, for one, do not.

Nothing to back it up is a big problem, but does it mean he is being dishonest?

coastal,

Come back and explain all this to us.

Sunflower

Fair enough.. but he said that he actually killed one.. unless he is referring to the hunting trip with his family's caretaker Burk where he only shot at it with a BB gun, and it ran away screaming and he wasn't even sure that he actually hit it... If this is the specific encounter he is referring to in his post then I find it a little unusual that "maybe" shooting one with a BB gun would lead to a lifetime of guilt, alchoholism, amnesia, and psychological trauma. And if so, I have a suspicion that Burk is no longer alive today to verify these claims...

Well, only Coastal can shed more light on it. CalifB, I felt like I could NEVER tell anyone what I saw in the Sierra's so many years ago. Now I can. BS walks, but I just like to give a man (or woman) a chance.

BSF

I know... I really need to work on that I guess... :icon_bang:

IF this "kill" really occurred and I can't say yes or no. I have my opinion. but even if he could/would take you to the spot it happened, I still dont think anything could be proven. If he didnt bury the body then even the bones would be disposed of after a few months or years. With no evidence nothing can be proven, just another interesting story. And yes I would like to hear it.

Not calling liar or bs, just interesting.

my 2 cents

dav

Existence High Probability 99% sure, can't be 100 without a body.

I read this a few days ago, I was going to post then but decided to hold off. I was hoping Coastalyeti would come back and explain the post. The problem is the fact some red flags are waving.

I am having some major difficulty in accepting this post on face value alone. I find it hard to believe in the fact that I can see him face to face to watch his body language and facial expressions. It is easy to come to a forum board or message board and post a alleged claim such as this.

I see some people have started the questioning already. Which is good because I think there are to many of these types of claims going on. For those who want to accept this claim then do so. Just remember, someone might be pulling your chain here. To publicly claim this means he is open to all the questioning in the world about it.

Some questions arise from this:

In the 10 years since this alleged incident occured, why did he not call someone who was well known to let them know about the body? He could of done this anonymously.

Why do people attribute "human" traits to this alleged animal? Before jumping on the bandwagon that it somehow it is "human" like. How can we justify claiming it is when we do not known anything about it except for a few claims here and there?

To feel guilt of killing this alleged animal yet state he is a hunter? I think there is a double standard here.

I think it is somewhat dramatic to compare his "alleged" incident with historical and factual documented incident.

To say, I quote,



I think if one is killed for the sake of scientific proof then so be it. Get off you high and mighty chair of morality because I think that is just an excuse. We act like a higher level of species but look at our record so far. Plus look at all the individuals who go after each other in the quest of solving the mystery of a "alleged" animal. Do you really think, if it does exist, it matters who is the top dog in finding the truth?

And one thing that I have a very hard time with is the fact how we tend to "accept" and "believe" these outragous claims without digging into it more.

So, if you think I am harsh then so be it but I think we all need to stop, step back, and start questioning everything before accepting for just face value.

Mike, I hope you don't think I am suggesting anyone be less critical about these alleged reports. But, just because someone didn't handle everything the way you or someone else sees fit, it's cool to blow them out of the water before getting the full story? Not everyone is as articulate as they should be. Not everyone makes the same decisions, or holds the same world views as you or I do. I really respect both CalifB's and your posts. I do not think either of you ask the hard questions as an exercise in ego-building. I just sometimes would like to see the dialogue between the person making the suspect report and the inquisioning panel go on a little longer before the gillotine is wheeled out. JMHO. No hard feelings, I assure you. Carry on.
BSF

Edit: I think I just have a different way of handling the questioning than many of you. If someone comes off as a COMPLETE nutball just seeking attention, I don't have time to bother with it. But, if there is a possibility of a shred of truth to the story, I like to collect enough evidence, then call him or her on it all at once, WHAM!. But, I try to get the whole story first. Please don't take my comments as condemning your approach, maybe more like suggestions.

To all: I'm no psychiatrist but EMPATHY can go a long way. If this is true what Coastal said, then try to put yourself in his place. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? Ten years ago and considering what this incident would have done to your family....and especially since he mentions "Homicide" I'm sure he thought there was a possibility he'd end up in jail, and he (whether or not it's true, shows a lot of anger and regret for the decision he made to kill it). Maybe he is a great story teller but I for one could think of a hundred reasons why he'd keep it a secret til now. He would definitely be "raked over the coals" then or now, so I can understand hiding out for this long. And again, if it's real, then the alchoholism would be a way of escaping this reality and numb the feelings of remorse, regret and anger. Even if it was self defense, let's say, without another witness, what then? I have to say I am not envious of him right now.....

Sunflower

Coastal,
If you are still out there, I have some questions for you. What made you feel it was homicide? Please be as specific as possible? How closely did you examine it? Were it's features 'refined', like a modern human's? What was it's nose like? Hair? Lips? head shape? How tall? How much do you reckon it weighed? Did it make any sounds? Was it male or female? How old were you at the time? What was it doing, that you felt compelled to shoot it?

I have a few more questions. Perhaps you could start a thread on your sighting. This might not be the right place to go into it. Do you feel you could report it to BFRO, Woolheater's group, or some other org?

I can tell you that I know when someone calls you a liar, it really feels like the whole world is doing so. My advantage was that I really didn't care (well it did hurt, but I had expected it). But, I did stop talking about it for many years. Also, if what you are telling us is the truth (and hopefully that will come out), you will find that you are among friends. I think many of us here will empathise, whether or not it is human. I would most certainly kill even a human if one placed my loved ones or myself in emminent danger of death. I would likely hurt about it later, as well.
BSF

:icon14: bsf