In the light of the recent events concerning Robo, I thought that a poll should be taken.

I posted as undecided. I think that the yes/no choice depends on the person in question.

That's a hard one. I think it depends on the circumstances. If someone deliberately intends to mislead the community at large, then I say no, give them their walking shoes. They will eventually do it again.
But if it was just a mistake or misidentification, or just plain lack of knowledge, I say give them a break. We learn as we go.

But if the term hoax applies to the first type I mentioned, which it always should in my opinion then I must vote no.

I voted undecided. It would (for me at least) depend on who the person was, their prior reputation, and the circumstances. Although there are probably VERY few instances where someone would deserve a second chance.

Yeah, I figured the same as Arky on this....

I say bury them up to their necks in the sand and cover their heads with honey and watch while the fire ants and scorpions render their flesh into nothingness while they scream in pain and torture...or worse yet! Make them attend a "Backstreet Boy's" concert!


All joking aside, I voted undecided. I really think it's going to depend on the circumstances and the person. If they only did it once, and it didn't go on too long, then I would say the person is going to have to work very hard, for a long time to earn respect. This is if the person is generally respected in other ways, if it's someone who is a known jerk or problem, then no, I say grab the honey and a shovel!

Redwolf

Well as a suprise, even to myself,I voted "undecided" after some thought.I think I can agree with Arky and Ranshrls assesment.Maybe the difference between a little white lie or a big honking fat one ? Circumstantial I guess.At the same time I agree with Redwolf,Especially if its one of the repeat offenders that are out there (and you know who you are !!) Couse Redwolfs way is tame compared to what I think should be done with them.

Looks like we're in a dead heat for the moment. I voted "undecided" too because I agree that circumstances will play a big part on a case-by-case basis. But as to the hoaxers who practice their hoaxing for possible monetary gain and/or notoriety, bust them. Cut them no slack.

It's like asking if all muderers should be put to death...well, kinda. It's like that in that there are no easy answers. No, not all murderers should be put to death. No, not all hoaxers should be punished for life. Punished? Yes. Chewed out? Oh yeah. Left to wander the world forever alone? Sometimes, sure. It all has to depend on the circumstances.

Now, if you're asking if robo should be given a second chance...well, I gave Beckjord a second chance (and that was it) so I guess I can give one to almost anyone. Oddly enough, my opinion on this one doesn't really matter. It's the rest of the people here who need to give him his chance. I guess you can say he already got it from me when I chose not to ban him.

Now, if you're wanting to know about third chances...

Ya gotta string them up.

Perpetrating a Hoax is unexcusable = Hoaxer

Involement in a Hoax could potentially be excused. But your research should never be trusted again. This is the only grey area IMHO. = Gulible

Would you expect any less from me?

Martin Grenfell

No Martin, I wouldn't.

Don't forget to Vote for, Yes This Tuesday!

These people are THE reason why you think the folks at the supermarket are pointing fingers at you.While whispering. There goes that crazy guy who belives in Bigfoot. Dosen't he know that was all a big hoax!

Think about that,before you become emotional and want to let them(hoaxers) get a second chance to stick it to you. The good ole boys at corner store are just laughing their stupid asses off at you for that same reason!

Progress cannot be achieved when energy is wasted on perpetual hoaxers.

A one time incident (as occurred here) especially one admitted to, explained the motive and then MANLY appologized for, should be considered over and done with.

No harm No foul NO BOOK

Let's not waste time and energy.

My 2cents

Robert

I agree Robert
Although the "wall of trust" can be rebuilt, one hard earned brick at a time, it will take time, and humbleness on the part of the hoaxer, and (unfortunatly) the hoax WILL remain in the back of ones mind, no matter how long ago it was perpetrated. That wall will never be quite the same, but trust can be rebuilt. Kinda like an unfaithful spouse, you can repair the damage, but not quite the same as it was.
The first brick robo laid down was the confession, and the apology. The next will be the group letting him return with a red butt from the spanking he's recieved already, and the label on his name for awhile.

Forgive and forget (well, maybe not forget totally )

I also voted undecided. For the same reasons stated above.. Circumstances, intent, etc.

And I also agree with Robert. In this case, I have come to feel that it was more a case of poor judgement on the part of the hoaxer than anything else. And I do appreciate robo's coming forward.

As far as I'm concerned it's done.

I guess I'm undecided to. The main reason I am having so much trouble with this....I went back to the start of the thread and it seemed that Robo just built the lie on and on and the more feedback given the more lies that were told and the more time wasted by everybody concerned. Why wait a month or more to set the record straight when you know how excited people are about the recording? Seems like a slap in the face to every body here to me.

I still have mixed emotions about robo. Probably because of his age now that I realize just how young he is. Young people tend to make mistakes and should not always be forever shadowed by them.

One minute I want to forgive him and let it go and give him a second chance...

but then the next time I think about it, I want to wring his scrawny little neck. :|

Just like a cheatin’ spouse… do you take them back or not?

I guess it depends on how you felt about them before they strayed…

I do remember robo pointing an accusatory finger at jim and admonishing him for starting a thread with a topic that may have been less than obvious to some… seems to me he was quite hypocritical… and then to try to goad people into… exactly what, I’m not sure, by all his crap regarding the Alaska bag of bones… having a great laugh at our expense, I sure… sad actually…

So just what all did robo attempt to affect in this forum? Many aspects attempted to be influenced, IMHO… hoaxers do not stop at one hoax… there are layers upon layers of lies… they will only admit (if even then) to those hoaxes that have been exposed…

If it’s a cancer, cut it out… otherwise, it will only mutate and grow back… maybe worse than before…

One thing to point out about hoaxers. Sometimes they will admit to something ONLY when they feel they are about to be exposed. They think somehow this will lessen the blow because they "confessed".

(Which indeed was the reason for robo's confession BTW.)

So you have to wonder just how long they will let it ride in deceit if they feel they are in the clear completely.

Seeing how i am new to the bigfoot community (been around sinse last sept.) I was wondering how many of the hoaxers in the past fessed up to the dasterly deed and made a public appology? I have read a lot about the hoaxes from the past , but i dont recall the later part happening. Ofcourse something a small as a public admission of guilt and a public appology could go over looked very easily by some. It is hard to kick someone in the butt and pat him on the back at the same time, but it can be done. Robert im with you. Its time for me to let go and get back to monkey huntin. Later Gang!

Jim Mahan
(pegleg52)

People only fess up when they are about to get caught, and it is evident in this case. I liked Robo for the time, no I didnt give the recording any credibility, just as I dont give the Patterson film any. None of it is evidence as long as it remains debatable.

I am glad Robo admitted to it. But I am sure he would have let it keep on had it not looked like he was about to be busted. I dont know for sure.

It would have been nice to have a person experienced at using advanced sound equipment. Too bad he used it for purposes against research instead of for it. I though of giving him a second chance like how they give hackers jobs at fighting hackers. It would be nice to have somebody around who can analyze sound recording, I am sure Robo would be able to spot a fake with his talent and that would have been very useful for us all. But how will we ever trust him again?

SkunkHunter (pain in the ass doubting Thomas of Bf research)

PS I voted "String em up" This was a deliberate hoax. Not a mistaken sound or third party hearsay, this was a deliberate attempt to decieve.

I voted string them up because I think you undecideds are missing a point. If its a misidentification or not intentional then it isn't a hoax. A hoax in my opinion is a lie purposfully perpetrated on unsuspecting people. It is not an accident its an intentional act. If a person is capable of doing that then they are not trustworthy in my opinion. It takes a form of nastiness to sit there and lie repeatedly over a 6 page thread.

I voted no.

Hoaxers get their kicks by making other people look foolish. That's what Robin did here. People who do sh*t like this make me very uneasy - I've learned the hard way to not waste my time interacting with sociopaths.

Extending trust to untrustworthy people just leads to getting even more seriously burned the second time around.


-Ray

I voted undecided. This is a difficult question because there are so many things to consider. How many future posters that come to this forum that are new will recognize the "admitted hoaxer" label next to an individuals name. I didn't see it until it was pointed out in a thread. Down the road the thread may get lost or buried and the issues behind it will be lost to the new person who can't then make a personal decision as to if he should be forgiven. What we are trying to do by labeling here is getting someone to wear the scarlet letter H.

Now if the person is forever banned then all they really have to do is come back as another person. It might not be easy but it probably could be done.

Forgiving the person and letting them come back is probably safe in one respect because at least most people will know who we are dealing with and it is better than becoming victimized again.

And that brings me to the subject of being a "MARK" for people who get their jollies off of fooling us bigfooters. My theory is that any and all evidence should be taken with that proverbial "grain of salt" and used to compare to your own personal research only. That way if someone does come in with a hoax instead of believing or trashing that persons findings you just weigh it with what you have personally learned. If it doesn't match, then either your observations and assumptions are false or the other persons observations and assumptions are false. Either way the important
thing to remember for me is that it is not so much the group or individual findings that should be important to your research but
only your own individual research and then you lessen the possibility of being hoaxed.

If someone comes in with a story such as leeloo's bones in Alaska I think it is great to give her the encouragement to follow up on this and hope for the best but as far as spending money and getting on a plane yourself that simply is not good sense in my opinion and if it is a hoax then that person is truly gullible. For this reason this experience was good in that each individual can assess just how serious he took this recording. If we don't over react to hoaxers then they will lose their momentum for hoaxing. It is the over reacting that feeds the hoaxers. goldie

I agree 100%, but does this mean we can't trust anyone? Robo had achieved a certain status here. Are we to think that everyone out there is a potential knife in the back? Honestly, I'd have a hard time coming in here every day (hour, whatever) if that were the case. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. It's a subject I'm struggling with right now because of all this. How far does someone you've never met have to go to earn your trust?

Also, are you saying you think branding robo with the scarlet H is not a good idea? Just looking for some clarification...

Playing jokes on friends is fine.
A hoax on the community in general isn't, no second chance for the monkeybrained hoaxer!

I guess the old adage, " Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" could be applied to this situation.

SFS, please don't shoot me for getting all existential and bleeding heart here, but where does forgiveness factor into that saying? Generally speaking, not necessarily about what robo's done, can you ever let someone who's screwed you back into 'the fold' while at the same time never forgetting what they've done to you?

Hmm. This is getting deep.

I guess that there is no forgiveness factor in that saying, it's kinda black and white.

As to letting someone who has screwed you over in the past, back into the group, I don't know. It's something that I'll have to give some thought to.

Being in the business I am in, I have come in contact with such a wide variety of people. There are those that I have dealt with in the past that I will NEVER trust to do business with again. And, there are those that I trust with my bread and butter. IMO, as much time and effort that we put into research, wheather it be in the field or in a chair, makes forgiveness a hard pill to swallow.

I get what you're saying, JD. This is hardly the community to be looking for second chances in, that's for sure.

True enough, Bipto. True enough.

What would have been great is if Robo had started a thread telling us that he had made this great recording and would like for us to judge or give our opinions on it. He could have still pulled off the "practical joke" on whomever he chose and not dragged this whole group through it.

But, I do believe he is sorry now, just not convinced if he's sorry he did that, or sorry he had to fess up.

OK, I'm gonna hush now and move on to something else. Tomorrow's another day. Later.

JayLee

To me, that's the worst part of the whole thing. robo was pretty established and for me, there was no indicator or red flag not to beleive him.

I usually pretty much question everything. Got me this time though. Total blindside.

Or maybe just sorry he got caught!

Oh I'm trying to use the quote feature and not having any success

Personally I've not been here long enough to have felt like I knew him well enough to judge either way. That is just my personal approach to all message board posters. I just don't think it is my place to pass judgement on someone else's story or evidence regardless of how knowlegeable or well known they may be or how much "prestige" they may have because of a degree or position in society. There are a number of very well known bigfooters out there that based on personal experience of my own I would bet they are yanking our chain about certain things. As George Karras also said "there is money to be made in this field "so I always keep an open mind about everything so that I'm not the next guys victim.

I use message board posters experiences and evidence to weigh against my own evidence but that is all. I look for camaderie and friendship and sharing of experiences and ideas. What it boils down to is just common sense and decency. When we start to question every poster then we are passing judgment and making ourselves vulnerable to a hoaxer. In other words to take the sting out of a hoaxers bite you can say "ok the recording was a fake but it sounded similar to ones posted on other boards" and let it go at that. If it is hoaxed - so what - if it is the real deal then great. If you approach the hobby from a personal standpoint and not from the position of determining someones credibility then you will have more confidence in your own research rather than letting your personal beliefs be weighted with what someone else says. My whole point here is to suggest that people don't judge others in a way that hurts an innocent or gives advantage to a snake. It just seems like a healthy attitude to take to combat hoaxterism.

As for Robo he came into this group and developed relationships and friendships with a number of people and then revealed himself. He obviously is one of those individuals who gets his kicks from humiliating people. He earned peoples trust and then violated it. He made us all his little one night stands

Each person will have to decide for themselves how they want to proceed in any future relationship with him. I will say after thinking about this that letting him come back you might end up with the problem that some forgive and others don't and this might cause a rift among people so maybe it would be better to give the person who calls himself Robo the scarlett H and send him on his way. goldie

I though he was a good guy at first. I think if he were genuine, he would have perhaps taken his experiment into a different direction. If he were to try something like prove how easy it is to hoax a recording for some folks, but making one himself, it wouldnt be so bad if he did it differently. Lets say he decided to go ahead and make this recording and then tell us about it and admit right off he made it just to show that it can be done, it would have been a different story.

Yes he took advantage of us, yes I say begone to him as he could have handled it much differntly.

I have photos of tree breaks, bends, teepees and even a shelter. Well I have them around here somewhere, but a Skunkape did not make them. I wanted to post them to show how supposed evidence can be caused from more mundane events. (this was a bout a year back).

If I find them I guess I could post them, but I will scratch (NOT CAUSED BY BIGFOOT) across them , I was worried at the time someone would see the photos and head out into the woods and find "evidence" everywhere. But I still want to show them, now I have to find them.

Take care all, SkunkHunter

That's actually a very good point, Goldie. Would it be worth the risk, to the overall morale of the board, to have him here and wind up splitting into separate "us" and "them" camps? I think not. I've abandoned a couple of other boards because of stupid bickering and I would HATE to see that happen here. I'm glad you brought that up.

You and me both Stacy...

I've tried this with a friend. Didn't work.

I got screwed over and over again. While more discerning folks dropped them like a hot-potato I kept forgiving the creep - while trying not to forget - for the "sake of the friendship".

Dr. Phil says that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Wish I'd known that a few years ago.

Turning the other cheek just means you're going to get punched on both sides of your head.

-Ray

I find it somewhat humerous, sad though, but humorous, that a post by robo in the "camtracker pic" thread where he stated that it was "bad etiquette" to put up misleading posts... Wonder if that was a Freudian slip on his part prior to being caught in his own little hoax. I could have dealt with it if he said fairly quick, "Ha, ha, gotcha..." or whatever, but to keep the charade going... Baaadddd... very bad...

Too true, deppup. Too true.

Well I guess we got 98 cents worth in here already. I might as well toss in the other two. I didn't vote, but I'd say give him another chance. Everyone makes mistakes. It kinda bothers me that he let it go on for so long, but I gotta admit. He was a man about it, and apologized. That took guts. It was a dumb thing to do. And I'd guess it started out as some harmless little prank. Maybe one that he underestimated the interest it would stir up.

Robo is young. Young people make mistakes. That's just part of life. I've been a professional salesman for 25 years. And I've made plenty. They didn't start out that way. A little stretch of the truth here. A harmless little white lie there. And before you know it things are totally out of hand. But by the time you're smart enough to figure it out it's too late. There is no graceful way to get out. Finally you just gotta throw in the towel, hand em the shovel, and let them shovel the dirt into the whole you already dug for YOURSELF.

Bipto, I think it's pretty cool that you let him stay in the forum. And Robin, you should put that talent you have with sounds to better use. Try to use it to authenticate a real vocalization rather than to create a hoax. You gotta admit, it did create a hell of a discussion.

And in response to George is that other thread. The screen name is mpoindexter. Which stands for Mark Poindexter. It's not like I'm worried about losing credibility. People already think I'm nuts

No kidding, eh.

Probably got a pretty good laugh ovet it himself, from that one...

Your probably right, RB.

When one tries to fool another and admits to them that it was a fake. Then continues with it somewhere else. NO, they should not be given another chance.

If he had not told me about forums, and I found the thread about the recording... everyone would have been talking about it.

I think that what the hoax has been exposed, that person after that point is pretty much under scrutiny from then on.

[edit]
pardon the "bump"....this one should have been left in the closet.
I thought they meant "hoaxers" in general, but the person who started the thread gets specific...

Hi all
Well yes I was duped or hoaxed But he was man enough to tell me that he had hoaxed some of the incidence that took place.I believe it was the need of attention that drove the hoaxing.But there are still things that happen that I can not explain and need answers .I believe that Once anyone has been hoaxed and was told about it,That it can upset one self very much .It is not an easy thing to except and all the work and time that one has put in can really ruin your hopes .The only thing that I can say is that If i did not see a creature with my own two eyes I would have never believe .At first when I was told that I have been hoaxed by the person who hoaxed me, it tore me up inside I considered him a friend and one I could trust But once that bond was broken I did not know what to do then.I was betrayed and it hurt.I have always been truthfull and I did not want to be tainted as a hoaxer ,It effected me in such a way that it is hard to explain because I was defencesive to everyone .I really believed that these creatures had some other abilities that could not be explained .Now I am sorry to all those who argued with me about what I have expieranced.I no longer associate my self with this person and I have distance my self far away from him.I only want to seek the truth about these creatures and that has been my goal .So I apoloigize to all I have offended and I truely pray that the truth will come forth about these creatures that we have no understanding .
Mark A