Ok, I know there must be someone here who knows what happens when there is a forest fire. How do the animals of the forest react to it (besides getting the hell outta Dodge)? Do they tend to run aimlessly looking for new territory or do they just quietly move on to the neighboring area?

I guess I am wondering if more tracks are visible after a forest fire possibly in areas you haven't seen many wildlife tracks before.

We had a forest fire near here yesterday. It is under control now. It went through the county next door to me and I did have a research area in that county though I am not sure if it was affected yet. I plan to check it out today.

I just have to wonder what affect it might have on bigfoot in that area and if I need to cross out that area for potential research now or move it over some.

I thought maybe someone else might have dealt with forest fires and know what to expect already.

Arky, I’m not sure about Sas, but other animals will move back into an area while the ground is still warm…

I have often wondered about that too Ark. My husband uses that and the Mt. St.Helens eruption here in WA to say that bigfoot doesn't exist. He says that when the mt. blew and then there were a lot of mudslides afterward that we should have seen a bigfoot corpse. I never know what to tell him.

What, did he think they would float to the top of the mud like a cork?

Tell him it's not like the woods are crawling with sasquatch or anything. What are the odds they'd find a nicely dead unknown primate just sitting prettily on a mound of volcanic mud? Pretty slim. Then ask him how many dead bears they found after the eruption. Then tell him...um...I don't know - I'm out...

Hey Leeloo. Mt St Helens was nasty. That was one of the best views of a natural disaster I've ever had. Ok, the best!!!!!! Happened to be sitting at the mouth of the Willamette where it dumps in the Columbia right in the middle of downtown Portland. About 50 miles away with an unobstructed clear view. Fishing for salmon. Just thinking about what I saw still makes me shiver. That was one hell of a pyrotechnics show!!!!!!!! One that lasted half a damn day??? Seems like anyway!

So they didn't find the body of a Sas?? I'm sure the 40 foot deep mudslides didn't help. Or the 10 foot of ash covering everything in sight? Or the bazillions of board feet of full grown firs trees that covered the whole area didn't help either.

I don't know how many of your people in other parts of the country have ever been there. But it was something to see. There's a place where two old miners were assumed dead. It blew there pickup about 100 yards from the road it had been parked on. That was 6 or 7 miles from the blast area. When you get up near the crater and look back to the northeast. There's this gap. You could see where it knocked down hundreds of acres of trees on the next ridge over. Gotta be 10 - 12 miles away??

And add to that the effects of a superheated cloud of gas in excess of 1000 degrees. Traveling at hundreds of miles an hour??? Find the body of a Sas? Or a bear? You wouldn't even find the body of a squirrel! Anything consisting of flesh and bone would have been instantly vaporized. Just like the top 3 or 4 thousand foot of that mountain!

I don't know what it looks like now. But 10 years after the blast it still looked like I imagined Hiroshima looked like after the war. I really didn't expect to see what I saw. Especially after that long. Hundreds of square miles of complete and total devastation! But like I've been reading in the wildfire thread. Nature has a way of healing itself. After a short 10 years there were little saplings growing up through the mud and ash. Millions of little bitty tiny frogs around every place with water. Another 10 years from now and you probably wouldn't even know anything had happened. OK, if it weren't for that flat topped mountain anyway

Wow RB! While the ground is still warm huh? I never would have guessed that!

I plan to check around the perimeter area anyway to see if I can find any tracks where they might have fled the area initially. I will be sure to let you guys know if I find anything. Thanks RB.

Yeah Arky… I saw, just last week, an edition of the “Scientific American” on PBS… Alan Alda hosts the show… one portion was on the American prairie and the native grasses and forests and both of their reliance on fire for survival…

I’d love to tell you all about it because I was completely enthralled with the program, but suffice it to say they had video of deer and elk grazing in areas that were still smoking…

Fire is nothing new to these guys… just like rain, only not as often… and hopefully on a regular basis so they can escape and not burned to a crisp by a fire from hell…

Ugh!

Fire good!

Dex,how close to you did the lahars flow ?Curious since when I was in Okinawa we got some of the survivors of Pinatubo blowing and they said that in some cases, where rivers were nearby the slides went as far as 30 miles (coulda been the shock talking,but hey I wasn't at the eruption...) As for the Fire areas,I like your idea of skirting the perimiter to search,Lisa.I may try that myself after the next one.

The slides never really got too close to where I was. The Columbia takes a sharp turn north after it passes through Portland. Most all the rivers that drain the St Helens area run east to west. Everything on the south side was flooded and full of downed trees. I'm sure it really screwed up the Lewis and Kalama Rivers for awhile.

It's kinda strange. From the Portland side you don't hardly even notice a difference. It's just a little flatter and little shorter than it used to be. You gotta be on the north side of it to see what happened. The mountain had developed this big bulge on the north side. The initial blast just blew the whole damn side of the mountain right off. But it wasn't up, it was straight sideways. Thats where most of the damage occured. And the slides there went for miles. The Toutle River got most off the overflow from that. That was over 20 years ago and when you drive across it on I-5 it still kind of a milky ashy color.

It was 10 years after the eruption before I ever made it up there. And even after seeing it happen and reading all the news I still didn't really comprehend what it was gonna be like. You're driving up this winding little typical Cascade Mountain road. Dense forests, Great Sas habitat by the way. And you come around a corner and theres just nothing. Everything for miles was just totally flattened. It kinda looked like you were on the moon. But once you got to the far east side things were right back to normal. It was that first blast that did all the damage. Then it took a little break and went straight up. That's the first thing you could see from where I was, but the whole north side of the mountain was gone long before we saw anything.

Actually Leeloo,

There have been persistant rumors that Army Helicopters were sighted carrying extremly large corpses in suspended cargo nets after the Mt St Helens eruption.

Also Locally here soldiers often report Sasquatch enounters in remote sections of Ft Lewis (Cat Lake area for example) and similar reports come out of Edwards AFB in California and a few other military bases around the country.

My point here is that if these reports have any truth to them, then the US military and hense the US government, knows of the existance of Sasquatch already and is not willing to make this knowlege public.

I dont know if I believe that but the existance of such reports from a varity of different locations across this country, all involving the US military, does make me wonder.

Sorry, but I have never really bought into the "Millitary knows all about them, but won't tell us" theory, of squatchery. What possible reason would the millitary have to try to keep secret the existance of just another animal(even one as interesting as sasquatch). I suppose individuals may chose not to discuss encounters, for the same reason individual civilians may not(fear of ridicule), but as to a concerted effort to "cover up" the existance of sasquatch, I seriously doubt it. Again, no reason at all for it, it's just a large, interesting animal, with no bearing at all on national security.

The military, among other things, is a tool of the government...

I suspect reasons for any cover-ups to be probably more socio-economic in nature than in the interest of national security... although those issues are definitely connected...

I'm sure the military has protocols for such odd things as Sasquatch, and I'm sure they do not include calling the newspaper... JMHO...

RB, these are a bunch of trigger happy 18-20 year old kids from Fort Lewis. Been hanging around for three or four years waiting for a war. If they'd a found a 8 foot tall 1000 pound animal up there in the woods they'd a had a head mounted on the front of their truck. No matter what it was. They'd a probably thouight it was an elk, even though about 99% of them have never seen one

Arky,did anything come out of your perimiter search (if you had time ).We just had a fire here yesterday that actually took out about 130 acres of the area I frequent the most on the other side of I-75.If you did where were the places you found to be the best areas around the burn to start ?Thanks in advance either way.

Jim, unfortunately, I never got a chance to go. Everytime I thought I had time, something would come up and I finally gave up on it after so much time had passed.

I wish I could offer you some help, alas.

Thats cool,I'm gonna go out later tonight and check the area. who knows ? maybe I'll at least see the tracks of a panther that had to vacate the area.

Just an update here from Oregon. The Senate just passed a bill to repeal the law against hunting bear and cougars with dogs, or baiting them. It's been 10 years since they passed that law. It keeps getting defeated. The main argument is there's never been a bear or cougar related killing in Oregon. Course they don't count the people that just got seriously chewed on You guys be careful

Jim, how'd it go? Find anything?

I finally went out to check out the area and the fire burned right up to the point of where Ranshirl and I witnessed the tree knocking incident.

I did find what at first glance I thought was bear tracks, but they were only 4 toed and had no claw marks in the mud nor were there any "hind" tracks. They would have all 4 had to have been front paw tracks. They were big though so I'm not sure what made them. Maybe a REALLY big cat? I will have to study the video and photos I got of them more to figure it out.

Anyway, finding them tells me large wildlife are still in the area.

Nore.Unfortunatly I didn't find anything.Just ashes,and sore feet. Haven' had a chance to get back out there to look around since then.Well I did,but kept ending up doing something else,hopefully later this week.

On, I'm pretty sure, one of the "big two" report archives there is some interesting material in a report involving flaming forestry in So Cal, perhaps around San Diego. I think it stuck in my head because it was so far south. Should be easy to find.

Splendid idea, springing to action during a fire. The down side is, if you encounter one, he may be in foul spirits.

I seem to remember someone posting 4 reasons why the brass at a military base wouldn't publicize news of BF sightings. I did a search on military base, got 4 hits, but none of them was it. I did a search on military, got 20 or so hits, and gave up. Anyway, one of the reasons is that news of BF would make some support-type troops nervous. The others might have been that it would make other troops trigger happy, that it would attract BF hunters and media people, who'd interfere with base operations. And that it might rattle higher-ups ("rocking the boat").

An additional one has occurred to me, one that a sophisticated governmental group running a UFO coverup would have realized long ago. The main impact of a BF discovery is going to be giving greater credence to witness testimony, giving less credence to stands-to-reason arguments why a phenomenon can't exist, and being more willing to fund long-shot investigations of Strange Phenomena. That will mean that a real effort to discover the truth about UFOs would almost certainly be mounted following a BF discovery. To delay that from happening, the military may have "gotten the word" to sit on BF news.

Roger,

Great post! I completely agree with your thoughts on the military's concerns regarding acknowledging BF's existence. Of course there's a bigger picture, which you begin to touch on in your second paragraph. That being the natural progression of inquiry our gov would then be exposed to regarding other supposed "unknowns". This is what "they" don't want because as more cover-ups are exposed the very ethos of our society, the belief that our gov is the mightiest power (I'll leave God out of this for now) and the great protector will be severely and irreversibly altered.

No, I truly believe (and I'll get on my soap box a little here) that much of what we are exposed in our daily lives are manufactured distractions designed to keep us content in our own little worlds and to keep us from questioning the motivations and actions of our leaders. TV (and all the junk it encompasses), sports, movies, the internet, 60 hour work weeks, etc. are all mechanisms to keep us busy and distracted. I'm not saying these things were intentionally designed and integrated into society for the purpose of societal control, but they serve that goal well and thus continue to be perpetuated.

Then of course there's the "label" one is assigned by society if you dare "believe" in those things considered on the edge or outside of the conventional "proper" library of knowledge: UFO's, Bigfoot, paranormal, etc,. We're all crazy, weird, bizarre. "You might not want to hire or promote him. He's one of those UFO freaks." " Don't let her watch your kids, she believes in Sasquatch." So the result being many people (especially prominent scientist and researchers) refuse to become involved in these areas of study.

So yes, I suppose that while the acknowledgement of BF's existence by our military/gov wouldn't, in and of itself, be that controversial, it's the after effects of that acknowledgement that would be a problem.

Wow... Roger... SABRE... my hat is off to you both for outstanding posts!

Those posts brought a tear to RB's eye... to know there are other's out there that think governmental manipulation of perceived reality regarding sensitive issues is a possibility... at least I think that's what they alluded to...

Hey, if nightwing says he saw a UFO... I believe him.

Sooo many pieces to this puzzle... if we only had a picture on the box top to follow so we would know what it's supposed to look like when it's done, it would be much easier... but all we get is inconsistant descriptions from those holding all the pieces... and they say we now have all the pieces, but since we know how well they can keep a secret... well, I suspect anyone who asks I have blind faith in them regarding my health and welfare...

When someone says, "Trust me." I automatically don't. But that's just me...

Hey RB, didn't you say 'trust me' when you asked me to climb up in that tree with you to see the bigfoot?

I never did see it....

Well, maybe not...

But I sure did...

Of course what you've said applies to other topics than BF. I think we'd do best to start by admitting we're at a loss regarding both the Big Questions and many small matters too, and likely to be so for centuries or millennia. That way progress can be made (maybe), uninhibited by presuppositions.

Of course, I'm just speculating about a gov't. UFO cover-up. IF there is one, and if it's being run by some canny professionals (likely), THEN it would make sense to sweep BF under the rug whenever possible, to avoid getting the public in a questioning mood about consensus reality. (I almost said a "skeptical" mood!) I'm thinking about expanding my thesis that "B-Day" would cascade into a search for other Strange Phenomena into a one-page article. I've got a great title: The First Domino.

I used to give UFOs 50% credence. I've raised that in the last year to 70%, mainly because after my acquaintances had their BF sighting I felt more comfortable in pooh-poohing conventional wisdom and believing in reporters' testimony on other topics. I give most credence to "soft" evidence, particularly evidence of a gov't. cover-up (such as destruction of Roswell Base records), and to testimony by credible eyewitnesses. For instance, the item that most impressed me in the Sci-Fi channel's recent special on Roswell was the testimony by two political bedfellows of former NM Lieut. Gov. (later Gov. & Sen., I think) Montoya (sp?), who told them in 1947 that he had just been shown alien bodies.

On the other hand, I've given the matter more thought and I've decided that maybe the UFO cover-up is in our best interests. Some of the scenarios I've heard as to what ETs are up to are quite scary, and if true, they would explain why that info hasn't been shared with the public. The guys in the cover-up group no doubt are doing as well in coping with the ETs as anyone could (I hope), and it would do no good if they had 250 million backseat drivers kibitzing them, while hiding under their beds. (Which is where I'd be, clutching my BF teddy-bear.) (There's a product that might sell well at BF conventions!) The very fact that there have been no leaks from the inner circle of "witty" gov't insiders or their relatives after their deaths on this topic suggests to me that the truth may indeed be something the rest of us couldn't handle.

Incidentally, if the gov't. wanted to take some air out of the UFO movement, all it would have to do is announce that it would not penalize any former military men, or other gov't. employees, who came forward with UFO-related information. And in fact that the gov't. would set up a hotline for them to report their info on. (Now WHY hasn't officialdom made this obvious counterstroke, I wonder. Afraid of what might come out?)

PS: The reason I prefer BF-advocacy to believing in UFOs or lake monsters is that with the latter two phenomena it's always questionable what the reporter really saw. He reports a light in the sky: there are half-a-dozen things it might be (not to mention a hallucination), besides a FO. Ditto with a humped shape in the water. But if someone says he saw an ape crossing the highway, it's either an ape or a guy in a suit. And if it's eight feet tall, it's not a guy in a suit.

well i had to watch the documentry about st helens whenit blew for a geology class and tehy said theyfound several dead deer, bears few stupid humans who wanted to watch the dang thing as it blew. last mistake they made :rolleyes: thing is, there are alot of lave tubes, maybe they could have hid in those, but my money is they felt the ground shking and were smart enough to get the hell outtta there

well you never been in the militray before. we never wait for a war, and were not all trigger happy teens either. things like that make me . i went in to serve my nation incase there was a war and there was, i went to d/s and never wanted to get in to a fire fight. i seen some off in the distance with tanks or planes , and it was scary. poeple who can wairt for a war never been in one . as for the government covering them up it completely bogus, they probably dont want to admit there things like that running around.

fine ill have a salami on rye with a martini~ hawkeye peirce[COLOR=blue]

man i need to learn how to type again

Excellent post, Roger!

I have had many of the same thoughts as those you have expressed… and I love to play dominos… which leads me to an interesting thought…

Who has lined up the dominos as Roger alludes to? I know I did as a kid… but did anyone else besides me hesitate in the moment just before you pushed the first one over to start the chain reaction? But why the hesitation? Was it because I relished order, or because I detested chaos? Or, did I just not want the anticipation to end? Could this same phenomenon be applied to others of life’s mysteries? Interesting…

As far as any cover-ups go… yes, I think most are in the best interest of the public. Just remember back several months when the US Army was closing on Baghdad, and yet were still meeting resistance in their rear (don’t even think it…) areas and had to stop to re-group… remember that? Well, everybody suddenly thought they were some kind of friggin’ army general… had loads of training and experience and thought the delay was completely inexcusable… the public doesn’t understand, nor do they have the patience and understanding necessary to prevail in such delicately fluid and volatile situations. But I think there are many other socio-economic reasons for keeping the public in the dark… as you say, the truth may be much too frightening to reveal…

But as far as a conspiracy to cover-up such stories as Bigfoot and UFOs existing as a tightly organized group, movement, stance or belief in our government… well, I just don’t put that much faith in their competency to believe that would work on a large scale… I have experience working with government law enforcement agencies, and from my experience… the competition within any given department or agency is much greater and nastier than with any outside entity or agency… I think outsiders are completely fed crap regarding UFOs, but individual governmental agencies continually attempt to steal alien technology or secrets from each other… the FBI has some, the CIA has some… the Army has some… the Navy and the Air Force all has pieces to the puzzle… they all spy on each other… and they all have the agenda to exploit them for not just the benefit of the nation as a whole, but also their own specific military applications… and the competition between branches of the military is very great regarding the development of new systems specifically for their own branch… it means more money in the future and, well… more power as well…

Ever hear the saying, “The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.”? I think that statement could very well apply to the US government as a whole… (I said whole, not “hole”)… To say the government has an airtight policy regarding any of these mysteries, IMHO, is inaccurate… no, I think that for the past several decades the predominate attitude toward these mysteries has been to deny everything, while stealing as much of the information from the people you are denying it to as you can… it’s the American way…

AAaaahhhhhhhhhhrrrrggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Like if all those 'government' peoples know all these 'top-secret' conspiracy thingies, then it wouldn't be no secret......people talk!!!!! You can't keep them all quiet or kill everyone or have them abducted by UFOs etc etc.....

Someone would say something to somebody, somewhere!!!! The media would find out or a reporter.....oh yeah, but then 'they' would have whoever found out assasinated.....right..... :rolleyes:

hehehe Yahoooooo.... you go girl!

click

Yep... you are right msfit... people do talk... people have talked... many books have been written on the topic...

But no one seems to be interested...

Interested in some story from some old farts about something that happened years and years ago? No, let's face it... if it didn't happen within the past couple of weeks (excluding, maybe, the WTC disaster), then most people really just don't give a darn....

And who is there to ask these questions anyway... the folks standing outside Area 51 painted silver?... oh yeah, they seem rational...



Yep... I totally agree... it isn't a secret anymore...

Is msfit great, or what?

ps: don't hold back so, girl...

The CIA practiced a thing a few years ago, before, during and after the Vietnam thing, where they would "leak out" a few truths, then "leak out" just anough stuff to make it sound like complete nonsense. Like letting EB out of the can for a few weeks ... plausible denyability i think they like to call it. That way, they can say they "never lied" about something, but they also didnt tell the whole truth.

The government lie to us citizens ?? Heaven forbid !! :rolleyes: after programs like COINTELPRO, the Kennedy "investigaton", and other programs, i have no trust left in those in charge. None. I love my country, love my Consitution, ...

Of course the government lies about all kinds of things!

But to leap from the government lies about stuff, to the only reason we don't know about UFOs, cattle mutilaitions, bigfoot, <insert pet paranormal weird stuff here>, etc. etc. is because the government is hiding it from us....is.....is...weird...paranoid...bizarre....(and I'm being nice in my choice of words, too)

Maybe not. Maybe the government just works overtime to control all its citizens and brain-wash us and keep us from knowing the all encompassing, enlightening, rapturous truths of the above... :rolleyes:

Yes, 'they' stand between us and all we are meant to be and know....

I apologize for having a hissy-fit over it tho.....something about the conspiracy theories just pushes my buttons I guess....

Ack....maybe I am nothing more than a government android meant to help pacify the peoples discontent

About ten years ago, in Calif. a woman was jogging in the Auburn Lake trails subdivision, which ia a trendy place where you can buy a 1500 square foot home on an acre for $350,000. Well, she went for her jog, and didn't come home. They found her gutted, and dead, at the claws of a mountain lion.

As far as wildfire and the "big guy" go. There have been "rumors" (I wish one of these things would get caught so we can get beyond the rumors stage), and statements by forest service officials that they have seen Bigfoot feeding on dead, burnt carcasses of elk and deer. "Would you like your Elk Tar Tar, or well done Mr. Foot?"

"Read this with your skepticals on."

Jon

"But Mulder, there is no copnspiracy!"

Sure...well...

From Ohio, comes the event (recorded in "The Track Record"???) concerning a gentleman who was heading down a country road when he hit a large biped that "looked like an Ape, but also looked human." He reported it to the local sheriff (apparently the man had a cell phone) who drove to the site. After looking the situation over, the sheriff "Got on the horn" and made another call, not letting the man leave the site (This was the part of 'Harry and the Hendersons' that was left on the producer's floor). After a time, a van (white or black) appeared, collected the carcass, loaded it up into the van, told the man to "tell no one." And left. I even think these fellows came complete with the outfits that the govt. officials wore in "E.T."

There are stories every where!

Jon

RB is "further out" on this matter than I am, & I'll let him defend himself, but what I said isn't subject to your strictures. I didn't imply "the only reason we don't know about ... bigfoot is because the government is hiding it from us." The government is just (perhaps) passively sitting on BF reports by the military (and Forest Service??) for parochial reasons of the base commanders and/or (perhaps) a higher-level policy not to let Weird Things gain credence, lest it lead to a UFO investigation. Obviously, there's very little the gov't. could do to cover up the discovery of a BF body or bones, or a good-quality videotape of one. Its suppressive role, if any, is very minor. I think RB would probably agree with me here. (OTOH, I haven't noticed the National Science Foundation funding any BF searches.)

About "cattle mutilations ... etc." I'm kind of dubious about any big cover-up by the federal government. How could the gov't. stop investigations by local gov'ts. or cattle assns. or other groups or the media, when all the evidence is available to them? There might be some desire by the feds to keep this matter under wraps for some odd reason, and they might do what they could to discourage investigations, but they couldn't effectively keep the truth from the rest of us. Again, their suppressive role, if any, would be minor.

With UFOs the situation is quite different. The cost of really investigating sightings is relatively high (e.g., contacting and getting cooperation from nearby radar towers, not to mention the gov'ts'. spy satellites, which might have noticed something). Analyzing any photos is fairly expensive. Establishing witness credibility is time-consuming. Knowing what other mundane explanations might account for a sighting requires special expertise. Many witnesses (e.g., pilots and cops) won't want to talk to anyone but an official investigator.

Beyond that, there's the ability of the government to cordon off crash sites and haul away the debris, as it did in a site in PA in the forties. (This cover-up is getting a lot of play now as "the 2nd Roswell" in the UFO community.) And there's the ability of the gov't. to credibly invoke national security to discourage witnesses from going public. (It couldn't do this on less spacey topics, like BF.)

On top of this there's the powerful motives the gov't. would have for a UFO cover-up: to avoid demoralizing the citizenry, and to keep foreign govts. from realizing that UFOs are real and attempting to contact them and acquire their technology. (And, perhaps (spooky music) to honor the terms of an agreement with the aliens not to reveal their presence.) And once a cover-up got started, inertia would tend to perpetuate it.

If the gov't. is as outraged as you are about being thought to be conducting a cover-up, let it meet my challenge and release its employees from any secrecy pledges they've signed and urge them to come forward with any UFO tales they might have. Until the gov't. takes that simple step, we're entitled to view its denials with (ahem) skepticism.

PS: Here's a link to a spooky UFO story, via the Coast-to-Coast-AM website: http://www.paranormalnews.com/article.asp?...p?ArticleID=698

<<--raises eyebrow, points upward..turns and wanders into th tall grass

You've made some excellent points RogerK......you aren't so paranoid after all

.....wish I could say the same thing about RB...

Yeah, if you are into UFOs I could see how the conspiracy thingie could come into play....I am a skeptic about it, but what do I know?

I think so much of this stuff is urban legends and myths and yes, alot of bigfoot stuff is too and I find myself wondering about what is real and what is not and....it can drive you crazy and I don't need any help there, thank-you!!!!!

So I am going to think about this more when I dare....and prob freak-out again over it...

Mountain Lion killed in Sacramento County yesterday:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/community_ne...p-8130836c.html

I think the he was just lost.or maybe pissed someone built a house next to "his" tree...

"In 1994, jogger Barbara Schoener was fatally attacked about 45 miles northeast of Sacramento. It was the only reported killing of a human by a mountain lion in California in more than 90 years. The animal was later tracked down and killed."


This isn't anything to do with Sasquatch. But Fish and Game tracked down 6-8 mountain lion before they found the right one.

My Grandpa lives in Orangevale. Two years ago a mt. lion killed and drug a dog into a tree in his front yard.

Jon

Hello?

These are carnivores and they get hungry and are just doing what they have to do to survive!!!

Why the [edit] did those idiot cops have to kill that mountain lion? They could have tranquilized it and released it somewhere else....like over here in Nevada for reals tho we've got lots of room....

That one poor lady who was attacked....its very unusual. "It was the only reported killing of a human by a mountain lion in California in more than 90 years. " That quote says it all....We have plenty of lions here and no fatalaties I have ever heard of.....

HOW MANY PEOPLE GET MAULED AND/OR KILLED BY DOMESTIC DOGS EACH YEAR?

That poor lion was prob hit by a car or something and hurt and confused....its usually only when they are very hurt or sick that they show up in town around here....

*sigh* Sorry for the tirade, but they are beautiful animals who are just trying to survive like us all.....

I suggest two things. First, read essays by John Shirley ("the skeptical believer") , so you won't feel alone. Here's his site: http://www.darkecho.com/skepticalbeliever/index.html. I haven't read the essays on the circle of sites he belongs to, but they might be interesting too.

Second, instead of thrashing back & forth between 100% commitment to faith or doubt, adopt the sort of grey-scale evaluation recommended by RA Wilson. Be a (say) 60% BF believer; on days when you feel doubtful :| , slide the percentage down to 40%, and on days when you believe , raise it to 80%.

MsFit,

I agree. The lady goes out into the "country" jogging, and doesn't come back, so F&G hunt down several mt. lion until they find the right one. What a waste.

I am somewhat reminded of "The Horse Whisperer" when Kirsten (Kristen) Scott Thomas is running across Robert Redford's ranch and he rides up and says, "You know, the grizzzly bear around here like joggers."

She replies, "I am not a jogger, I am a runner."

And then that classic line, "Sorry, they'll eat runners too."

It just comes down to that attidtude people have when they go out into the wilderness, they get arrogant, nothing can happen to them, and when a 1/10,000(0) chance event does take place, all the city folk get up in arms and want to be protected. The press gets all excited, the guys with little chubs but compensate with big rifles get all excited. It gets out of hand.

If you want to swim with the carnivores, you'd better stay in the cage.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Jon

This doesn't really relate to BF, where I don't think any active coverup is in operation, but more to the UFO topic. And it's not meant to pick on Msfit in particular, since this is an argument that is made by many sensible people, and that has much plausibility.

However, I was just re-reading The Ultra Secret by F.W. Winterbotham, about how the allies broke the German's Enigma code in WW2 and relied on the info. they gained thereby to win the war. The quotes from reviews on the back cover stated "The best-kept military secret of all time" and "For thirty-five years, Ultra has remained a closely guarded secret." This made me realize that the case of Ultra is an example of a secret known by thousands that was kept completely concealed by all of them long after there was any apparent need for them to do so.

This discredits the argument so commonly made that "the government can't keep a secret," followed by a list of its secrets that have come to light. Whenever I've read that sort of statement (not made Msfit--I'm just using her remark here as a peg to hang my observation on), I want to respond--Yeah, certain secrets have come out. But that doesn't mean that other secrets haven't been kept.

What do you think of Bob Lazar's claims of having worked at Area 51 and seen the strange craft the gov. was hiding there? It's true that people DO talk but when they do no one believes them. Are they kooks looking for notoriety? Very
possible. But they ARE out there talking and the question is whether or not they are the real deal. With all the disinformation we're fed daily by the government about "normal" things so we all don't freak out or get riled up over their actions, it's hard to know what to believe anymore. And maybe it's not deliberate disinformation at all but just stupid people working in the government who make bonehead decisions and cause problems. Do I trust the government? Heck no. I work in the healthcare industry and have seen enough loads of crap from them to ever put any faith in them again. (No way will I ever get another immunization shot again!) Or the times the idiots came around our neighborhood spraying dangerous chemicals around "gotta kill the medfly" "gotta kill the Japanese beetle."
My mom and I both got sick over that idiocy. No, I don't believe they were spraying to kill anything but people. (Incidently the cancer rate in my area is incredibly high--go figure--and every single one of our pets died of cancer as well.) So I go by what *I* have directly experienced or those I know and trust implicitly. Does the government have our best interests at heart? Don't make me laugh! It always has and always will do what's best for whomever is currently the biggest, richest turd floating in the toilet bowl. Most of these egotists in the gov. would never acknowledge knowing details about a UFO or a Bigfoot anyway simply because he/she doesn't want to be perceived as a nut and not get elected again or fired. Government conspiracy? Perhaps. More like government idiocy...

Here's a link to an interview with David Adair, who has a story similar to Bob Lazar's, but who is a more believable witness. I.e., he's one with more documented accomplishments under his belt, and more documentation of having been an insider. He was interviewed on Coast To Coast Oct. 13 and sounded believable (not that I'm any expert at detecting hoaxers). If you subscribe to Coast's listening-privilege service, you can go to their site and click on a symbol to hear a rebroadcast of the interview.

UFOlogy is Too Big for me to cope with--and I don't think I could suggest anything helpful there. The gov't will "disclose" the truth when it decides the time is ripe, or when some extraordinary event or confession forces it to. There's little ufologists can do to change that. That's unlike the situation with BF, where amateur researchers and kibitzers can potentially make a real difference.

Oh, BTW, I messed up in the third para. of my post above, leaving out a couple of words--it should have read "not made just by Msfit". Even on this forum, I'm sure that argument has been made several times. I just searched for "coverup" and her post was one of the first I found--others I didn't look at. (If I'd searched for "cover-up" I'd have found even more.)

msfit32

thank you for your tirade on the way we treat those apex predators. They don't have any less of right to be in this world than we do. If it's a cougar, abear or a wolf, homo seems to have this knee-jerk kill attitude. People who live in cougar country should be prepared for encounters. Was that woman wearing a headset when she was killed? She should never have been out there alone.