Faking dermal ridges, How did Sarmiento do it? Options

[peregrine]

I missed the recent National Geographic program about the sasquatch and some of those involved in the subject. From what I’ve read, I don’t anticipate scanning the TV Guide to find repeat showings.

One thing I read about the show's content did interest me. Hopefully dda or someone else can help.

Esteban Sarmiento supposedly demonstrated large fake feet that could be used to hoax tracks, complete with dermal ridge impressions. The implication being, I guess, that casts exhibiting dermal evidence could have been intentionally hoaxed (which I find to be a completely outrageous notion, but that’s another issue for another time).

I guess I’d basically like to see some discussion/explanation of Sarmiento’s foot project, particularly how he managed to manufacture fake dermal ridges.

[robo]

Doesn't Dr. Sarmiento work in New York City?

[Desertyeti]

Yep, at the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH).

[Orygun]

He made casts of his own feet and then made copies with silicone. When he place the silicone in paint thinner, IIRC, it swelled.

But, of course, regardless of this technique, it doesn't explain the unique dermal patterns running opposite of humans.

[Desertyeti]

Same thing Don Baird used to do with insect wings and latex molds.

[damndirtyape]

It's been discussed before. The method has to be done over and over to get the size needed and the material doesn't hold up well in the process. Thin layers of Latex rubber and kerosene are usually used, thick layers would not impregnate properly.

Added some:

Then you need to figure out how to make the impressions in the ground convincing. Given enough time and resources, almost anything is possible... but to go the rube goldberg (sic) way is a lot of work for a hoax that rarely gets the purpetrator the credit they must be seeking... unless the purps are more interested in gaining aceptable recognition within the Bigfoot community.

This post has been edited by damndirtyape: Feb 2 2005, 03:12 PM

[Desertyeti]

Yeah, latex dissolves in contact with petroleum-based products. But to blow a 10" human foot up into a 14" or 17" 'squatch foot would be possible (Baird had a 4 foot long dragonfly wing). Just have to make a cast after each small, incremental increase in size, then take another mold of that...might lose some resolution, but possibly not too much.

[primal_scream]

He used the dermal ridges of apes and his own as well

[peregrine]

It's been discussed before. The method has to be done over and over to get the size needed and the material doesn't hold up well in the process. Thin layers of Latex rubber and kerosene are usually used, thick layers would not impregnate properly.

Added some:

Then you need to figure out how to make the impressions in the ground convincing. Given enough time and resources, almost anything is possible... but to go the rube goldberg (sic) way is a lot of work for a hoax that rarely gets the purpetrator the credit they must be seeking... unless the purps are more interested in gaining aceptable recognition within the Bigfoot community.

To convert a ten or eleven inch human foot impression into a sixteen inch cast or mold fit for hoaxing purposes would appear to be an exceedingly lengthy process if done by adding incremental layer upon layer.

I guess I'm skeptical to the point that I'd have to see proof that such a process would not significantly distort dermal ridge details (such as bifurcations and sweat pores) beyond recognition. Even if the process preserved such details, overall foot proportions should not be affected.

And as you say, other questions remain.

[Guy]

He used the dermal ridges of apes and his own as well

I would expect Chilicutt to catch that, though. Such a combination would result in ridges suddenly ending and others suddenly starting, erratic patterns, and other red flags.

[damndirtyape]

The expansion of the latex would not be uniform and one of the characteristics looked at is ridge thickness; they should all be of a uniform thickness. Combining Ape and Human would readily be caught by Jimmy as well as non-uniform thickness due to uneven expansion.

[robo]

Not to mention that the dermal ridges and sweat pores would then be excessively large, as they would swell in proportion to the entire foot casting, right?

I don't think the 'latex expansion' idea is new at all. Krantz mentioned it in his book, for sure, and most of that was written more than 15 years ago.

[Desertyeti]

To convert a ten or eleven inch human foot impression into a sixteen inch cast or mold fit for hoaxing purposes would appear to be an exceedingly lengthy process if done by adding incremental layer upon layer.

Not done layer by layer...Don Baird, a paleontologist at Princeton used to show audiences how he increased the dragonfly wind from 4 to 48 inches in a couple of steps...veins and all...pretty cool stuff and this was back in the '70s and '80s.
As for sweat pores being excessively large...well...if you're increasing a human foot ~150-175%, that's still less than twice normal size. Sweat pores would still be at the sub-millimeter scale...ridges might turn out bigger than usual, but this is the same thing that would be expected on a physically larger foot (having slightly larger ridges)...so...beats me.

[Versatile]

Any links to how they do this?

[Desertyeti]

Here's the reference.
Baird, D. 1989. Sasquatch footprints: A proposed method of fabrication. Cryptozoology 8: 43-46.

It's posted on the site with all the other articles...http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/bf_papers.html...or at least it was...

This post has been edited by Desertyeti: Feb 3 2005, 11:46 AM

[Texas Tracker]

So, the counterfeiter goes to all the trouble of faking the dermals on a latex cast, and then making the tracks using the latex casts out somewhere in the great American outback. He then hopes and prays that someone, by remote astronomical chance finds the tracks within a few days after making them so that not only are the dermals still intact, but the entire trackway, on which he's just spent an enormous amount of time and energy. And on top of that, he fervently prays that his counterfeit tracks are good enough to fool those who may, by some great miracle, stumble upon them before the rain and wind decimate them. Oh yeah, and then he further prays that whoever finds his faked tracks will then cast the tracks using Hydrocal or any casting material, so that the dermals will still show up. Finally, when casts of his tracks are made, he hopes that the BFRO or TBRC will be stupid enough not to have the casts inspected by a primate dermal ridge expert, before proclaiming, "Hyuk Hyuk. What we have here folks is a genuine set of them there bigfoot tracks."

Good luck.

[Judaculla]

Dermal ridges are easily faked, even by wildlife. Dermal ridges were found on the Skookum cast, so it is well within the capacity of elk to deceive dermatoglyphic experts.

This post has been edited by Judaculla: Feb 3 2005, 12:54 PM

[Wull E. Booger]

I've never trusted elk. They've always looked a little shifty to me.

[GrandCherokee]

So, the counterfeiter goes to all the trouble of faking the dermals on a latex cast, and then making the tracks using the latex casts out somewhere in the great American outback. He then hopes and prays that someone, by remote astronomical chance finds the tracks within a few days after making them so that not only are the dermals still intact, but the entire trackway, on which he's just spent an enormous amount of time and energy. And on top of that, he fervently prays that his counterfeit tracks are good enough to fool those who may, by some great miracle, stumble upon them before the rain and wind decimate them. Oh yeah, and then he further prays that whoever finds his faked tracks will then cast the tracks using Hydrocal or any casting material, so that the dermals will still show up. Finally, when casts of his tracks are made, he hopes that the BFRO or TBRC will be stupid enough not to have the casts inspected by a primate dermal ridge expert, before proclaiming, "Hyuk Hyuk. What we have here folks is a genuine set of them there bigfoot tracks."

Good luck.

agreed

[rockinkt]

Dermal ridges are easily faked, even by wildlife. Dermal ridges were found on the Skookum cast, so it is well within the capacity of elk to deceive dermatoglyphic experts.

I have had to grill an elk more than once!

[wildernessguy]

Dermal ridges are easily faked, even by wildlife. Dermal ridges were found on the Skookum cast, so it is well within the capacity of elk to deceive dermatoglyphic experts.

Elk?

[Hairy Man]

Esteban Sarmiento said that he used silicone on the feet of gibbons and chimps to simulate dermal ridges on his cast; meaning he got access to a gibbon and chimp; made them hold still; stuck their feet into silicone; went home and poured casting material into the mold; let it sit, took it out and used the skin “cast� to stamp his own “fake� footprint; then proceeded to enlarge the print by the process already noted.

Yep, all hoaxers have access to gibbons and chimps...or maybe they have relatives with chimp-like feet???

[Desertyeti]

Could just use their own feet...'squatch dermals aren't that different from humans except the supposedly longitudinal lateral sole ridges...which still look fishy to me, but I ain't no dermatoglyphics expert. But the toes look the same as human toes and thumbs on the track casts I've examined.

[belleoftheball]

Dermal ridges are easily faked, even by wildlife.  Dermal ridges were found on the Skookum cast, so it is well within the capacity of elk to deceive dermatoglyphic experts. 

I have had to grill an elk more than once!

[peregrine]

Could just use their own feet...'squatch dermals aren't that different from humans except the supposedly longitudinal lateral sole ridges...which still look fishy to me, but I ain't no dermatoglyphics expert.  But the toes look the same as human toes and thumbs on the track casts I've examined.

Yes, other than the unique ridge flow patterns Chilcutt has suggested, features characterizing human dermal ridges are seen in purported sasquatch dermal ridge evidence; the main difference is one of scale, as should be expected.

[RogerKni]

I guess I’d basically like to see some discussion/explanation of Sarmiento’s foot project, particularly how he managed to manufacture fake dermal ridges.

Here's a link to my Jan. 31 comment on this, in the Nat. Geog. Special Thread (Media). (In it I cite the wonderful pageful comparing dermal ridge examples of various primates on p. 142 of Murphy's book, Meet the Sasquatch.)

[BigDaddy]

I’m not proposing that all supposed B/F tracks are fakes (I prefer to believe that some may be real) . But just suppose for a moment that the dermal ridges weren’t intentionally faked but accidentally faked. Enlarged latex molds are not the only method used by hoaxers, some use Wallace like wooden carvings strapped to their feet. That said, I think it could be possible that the dermal ridges being observed could be the wood grain of a worn wooden carving. Any fair woodworker will tell you that if they were to carve such feet, the wood grain would have to run lengthwise or the carving would break with the first few steps and after some use on the bare ground and in mud, the grain will ware, leaving ridges and depressions.

Some wood grains just naturally have an appearance like fingerprints.


Jast a thought, Chuck

Attached image(s)

 

[Judaculla]

I’m not proposing that all supposed B/F tracks are fakes (I prefer to believe that some may be real) . But just suppose for a moment that the dermal ridges weren’t intentionally faked but accidentally faked.

This is David Daegling's position. He knows how ludicrous it is to suggest that someone intentionally fabricated a detail that no one knew about or was looking for.

Instead, he suggests that dermal ridges are some sort of accidental byproduct of hoaxing (he suggests the same for what Krantz believed to be sweat pores). The wood-grain hypothesis would be in this same camp. I fail to see how wood-grain would further explain observations like properly healed scar tissue, however.

If sasquatch feet were identical in form to human feet, but just larger (and I know they aren't in various ways), then every detail could theoretically be copied and enlarged without knowing any of the particulars of the anatomy. That's what the latex expansion technique would provide under ideal (perhaps impossible) conditions: a copy of every little detail at bigfoot proportions without knowing diddly about dermatoglyphics.

The elk joke was a reference to the idea that an elk was responsible for the imprint in Skookum meadows (not plausible IMO). Since dermal ridges were found on the cast, I implied that the supposed elk also fabricated the dermatoglyphics.

Jokes lose a lot in their explanation, don't they.... :help:

This post has been edited by Judaculla: Feb 4 2005, 06:19 AM

[JWBrown33]

I saw "On The Trail of Bigfoot" again last week on Travel or one of those channels. At one point Chilcutt was on talking about a particular cast and basically said without quoting him from the program that it matched another cast taken 20 years later nearly 700 miles away. Given the time frame and the distance, he felt that there was absolutely no way the identical track could be a hoax.

I wasn't very clear in understanding him: did he mean it was the exact same animal 700 miles away 20 years later? Or did he mean the track was similar? Richard or any of you know which it was he meant? Being a fingerprint expert I was assuming that he meant the dermals were an exact match between the two casts taken in the distance in time and space. Is this correct?

J.

[Texas Tracker]

I saw "On The Trail of Bigfoot" again last week on Travel or one of those channels.  At one point Chilcutt was on talking about a particular cast and basically said without quoting him from the program that it matched another cast taken 20 years later nearly 700 miles away.  Given the time frame and the distance, he felt that there was absolutely no way the identical track could be a hoax.

I wasn't very clear in understanding him:  did he mean it was the exact same animal 700 miles away 20 years later?  Or did he mean the track was similar?  Richard or any of you know which it was he meant?  Being a fingerprint expert I was assuming that he meant the dermals were an exact match between the two casts taken in the distance in time and space.  Is this correct?

J.

What he meant was this:

A track that he analyzed out of the Northwest had the same kind of ridge flow patterns as did a cast from Georgia. Also, casts that he analyzed with the same kind of patterns were taken years apart.

Regarding what was said earlier in this thread about wood grain patterns possibly being confused for dermal ridge patterns by primate dermatoglyphics experts (Chilcutt and Meldrum). All I can do is bang my head against the wall and ask myself, "What's the use?"



This post has been edited by Texas Tracker: Feb 4 2005, 12:56 PM

[Geodon13]

I think that faking the ridges is a big waste of time and effort...and the so called experts that say they are fake are grasping at straws...How many experts will say that they actually believed in our big hairy friend when 1 is finally found......

[JonZ]

So, the counterfeiter goes to all the trouble of faking the dermals on a latex cast, and then making the tracks using the latex casts out somewhere in the great American outback. He then hopes and prays that someone, by remote astronomical chance finds the tracks within a few days after making them so that not only are the dermals still intact, but the entire trackway, on which he's just spent an enormous amount of time and energy. And on top of that, he fervently prays that his counterfeit tracks are good enough to fool those who may, by some great miracle, stumble upon them before the rain and wind decimate them. Oh yeah, and then he further prays that whoever finds his faked tracks will then cast the tracks using Hydrocal or any casting material, so that the dermals will still show up. Finally, when casts of his tracks are made, he hopes that the BFRO or TBRC will be stupid enough not to have the casts inspected by a primate dermal ridge expert, before proclaiming, "Hyuk Hyuk. What we have here folks is a genuine set of them there bigfoot tracks."

Good luck.

Texas Tracker,

I have read John Bindernagel, and he has made prints of tracks ten miles from the nearest road. Now, I think you are right, that is a long way to carry tracks if you are going to try to fake someone out.

I also think about Rene Dahinden and others who have followed tracks for sereval miles (sometimes in snow). I personally think it would take a lot of stamina to walk around in fake BF feet. A good example would be trying to walk in swin fins. From the chair to the pool...

Jon

[AnotherPullTab]

Ok, maybe Im missing something, but lets say you faked the dermals like Saminego did..by pressing them onto the newly created foot. Wouldnt the ridge detail be inverted? This is something that is easily determined. You would then have to create yet another cast of the finished product to have the dermals appear normal. There goes your detail and clarity.

Make sense?