tree damage, should i take another look Options

[nothed]

i found this spot a month ago while scouting. its not easy acessed. the area show sign of deer & bear probably cougar elk is less likely. im not realy into taken pic. of trees but these atleast looked interesting. there's a large lake about two mile west of this spot. its on dnr property and remains locked this area is part of the mt. baker snoqualmie national forest just to give you a little info. of the area. would you take a closer look if you seen this type of damage. if you would like to comment on these i would be interested in what you have to say. i may go back and take more photos. other things caught my eye.

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[nothed]

this one was fifteen yards from the first the trees and are broke the other direction

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[nothed]

with in fifty yard of previous

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[nothed]

this is what made me look around. it don't show it very well in the pic. but this is a top of a tree. the tree was 18 maybe 20 feet tall . the top was broke maybe 13 foot up. the photo i took of the rest of the tree didn't turn out good enought to make it worth keeping.

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[Orygun]

Any signs of the ground around the bases of the trees being highly disturbed?

[JetLag112]

Oh yeah.......that place looks nice!!!!!! Very good location by the looks it, if it occured naturally and not by man.

If you get a chance and want to go looking for a Bigfoot, that area looks like a good place to start.

[MIbfhunter]

it looks like natural causes to me but ya never know, where there any big storms in the area recently that could have snapped those branches?

[jimf]

Thinking the same thing ,Travis...It looks like some of the straight line wind damage from Kalamazoo and Schoolcraft Counties a few years ago...not all of the trees were downed in the same direction...

[nothed]

there has been high wind moved through the area. large tree blow downs. not much for tracks on the ground but major game trails through thick brush. a lot of recently desturbed areas . maybe a bear. how active are they right now?

[Sachmo]

nothed, where exactly were these pics taken? i live in the region, and the damage looks a lot like what i have seen a lot of around here after that big snow storm we had a few weeks ago. i took similar pictures of trees and other vegetation, which had severe ice accumulation, causing them to literally break in half because of the weight.

[bipto]

My personal opinion is that only tree breaks, bends, etc., that contain hair or other physical evidence are ones we should put any great weight behind. I've seen trees do very strange things, some right next to major highways, to think even a small percentage of it could be BF related. I'm not saying all tree damage is NOT BF related, just that without hair or track evidence, it's all too dicey for me.

[RogerKni]

IF "unknown animal" DNA evidence can be picked up within (say) six months from fingerprints left on trees, as the reference below seems to indicate, that would be a source of evidence that would validate (some) tree breaks. It would also give us an indication of the type of tree breaks that are likely BF-related (e.g., "twists," and also perhaps certain patterns of damage, such as a series of 9-foot high limbs being broken). And it would also, in the process, validate BF him/herself!

Meantime, since strange tree breaks give a clue as to where BF DNA might be collected (and without any damage or even trauma to the animal!), I think it is a topic that should be on researchers' front burner. BF research needs to try doing something different, as many astute observers have noted. Here is “something different” that is inexpensive, objective, and has breakthrough-potential. I.e., it not only would make a real impact on scientific opinion, but would open up a new avenue for lots of investigators to collect lots of data and develop a profile of high-potential tree-damage patterns, and from that even a picture of BF wanderings in various areas.

All a dedicated researcher or (preferably) organization has to do is have the nerve to contact the technique’s inventors and make arrangements to start sending them suspect DNA swabs for analysis. The inventors might go along with this (i.e., with doing the analysis for free) if they were “sold” on the fantastic publicity benefit their technique would garner if it turned out to be the key that unlocked the door to The Missing Link.

Here’s info. on the article describing the technique (with an updated URL):
“DNA extractable from fingerprints”
By Charles Choi UPI Science News
http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0307/175.htm

Here is contact info. for the inventor, or the spokesperson for the inventing team:
Maria Viaznikova
University of Ottawa Heart Institute
40 Ruskin Street
Ottawa, ON
K1Y 4W7

Telephone: + 1 613 761-5000
Facsimile: + 1 613 761-5323
webmaster@ottawaheart.ca

Also, a Nov. 2003 news item has described new techniques using chemical sprays that enable fingerprints to be made visible on wood and rocks. This could help clarify cases involving twisted-trees, and rock-throwing, and rock-stacking. In particular, it would give field investigators a clue as to whether a tree contained BF prints to take a swab of for DNA analysis, so they wouldn’t be making stabs in the dark. They’d have a much higher likelihood of sending non-dud swabs to the analysts in Ottawa. It’s: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s998859.htm

[nothed]

i'll take a better look for hair and see what track i can find. if anything looks like it might be something i'll collect what i can

[Tsiatko]

I agree with Bipto. Tree breaks are hard to tell without other things helping to give clues. I have found numerous broken branches that arer very interesting but I cna't say for sure what did them. Here is a picture of one.

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[HuntFish]

Nothed, cool pictures! Of the first three pictures, what type of tree is that?

[nothed]

picture 1&2 alder
picture 3 cotton wood
picture 4 fir

[doglady]

nothed

i'd be interested in knowing what other things you noticed

as far as the trees, it looks like a shattering kind of damage, like they were hit really hard straight on, or exploded from the inside, rather than a wrenching kind of damage, which would be if something, even the wind, grabbed them and twisted them. i'm thinking out loud... And the last picture looks to have an area where the tree might have been damaged previously and healed some and it broke at a weak point. I wish i could see it all together because i'm not good at visualizing things like that. But the damage looks to me like what we see here in ga after acycle of tornados accompanied by what the meterologists around here call microbursts and strong straight-line winds. Here in ga we sometimes get a combo of wind types in the same storm system.

Just an opinion. I'm glad to read that you're paying attention to stuff like that. I'm still trying to remember to look at my surroundings in a different light now when i'm out in the woods.

maryhelen

[BigfootDad]

Very interesting pics, Nothead and Tsiatko!

I have some of pines broken like that from the Sierras last Oct. (can't post them for a couple of weeks...sorry. Waiting on the new computer to arrive next week.)
I think this type of "evidence" is a sign of activity in an area and look for things like this when we're entering a new location. I know in the fall in the Sierras, the ground was NOT conducive to leaving good tracks due to the sandy, dry soil and the plant "litter"...but we did find some interesting foot "scuffs" (where the pine needles had been moved to expose a 14" foot shaped mark).

Thanks for posting the pics. Hope I can get mine (only two good ones) up here in a couple of weeks.

[LoneWolf]

Great pictures nothed! I also have several pictures taken in the last year of broken trees from different locations while out in the field. Also, I had some film developed from 2-3 years ago that i took off a logging road near the Bluff creek area in CA. of rock stackings! Didn't know how rare they were until I mentioned them to someone. Thanks again for sharing your pictures-LW

[goldie]

Interesting pictures. Here are two pictures I took of a downed tree up in my research area that had shell casings laying all around it. Since I know nothing about guns or what they can do can some of you gun people verify if this is the kind of damage a gun would do. If so this will be a good reference for future tree breaks that look like this. The first picture will be with this post and then the next post will have the other end of the tree that shows the casings. goldie

This post has been edited by goldie: Feb 28 2004, 01:40 PM

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[goldie]

here is the other end of the tree with the casings. There were casings buried inside the tree also. goldie

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[goldie]

ok for some reason the first picture is not coming up. Maybe too many pictures for the first page - here it is.... goldie

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[GrandCherokee]

ok for some reason the first picture is not coming up.  Maybe too many pictures for the first page - here it is.... goldie

Did you note any chips and.or splinters around the area at the base of the tree. You would need enough pieces to figure that about two feet of the tree had been blown into smithereens and is missing.
Other wise I cannot see how scattershot could do such a thing...At that distance away from the tree, where the shells were laying, would not the pattern spread be large? Unless there were a few 'slugs' included. But even that would have been very messy.
I can't really tell, but it looks like it was a somewhat clean break

This post has been edited by GrandCherokee: Feb 28 2004, 02:33 PM

[goldie]

[/QUOTE]Did you note any chips and.or splinters around the area at the base of the tree. You would need enough pieces to figure that about two feet of the tree had been blown into smithereens and is missing.

I don't think there were any splinters or chips that I can recall.  At least not to equal 2 feet of tree.  The end of the tree looks twisted. 

Other wise I cannot see how scattershot could do such a thing...At that distance away from the tree, where the shells were laying, would not the pattern spread be large? Unless there were a few 'slugs' included. But even that would have been very messy.
I can't really tell, but it looks like it was a somewhat clean break [QUOTE]

So would there be other little bullet things laying around? You mentioned scatter shot are those the little metal things you find laying around? I found nothing other than the red casings No entrance in the trees that would indicate bullet.

[GrandCherokee]

Did you note any chips and.or splinters around the area at the base of the tree. You would need enough pieces to figure that about two feet of the tree had been blown into smithereens and is missing.

I don't think there were any splinters or chips that I can recall.  At least not to equal 2 feet of tree.  The end of the tree looks twisted. 

Other wise I cannot see how scattershot could do such a thing...At that distance away from the tree, where the shells were laying, would not the pattern spread be large? Unless there were a few 'slugs' included. But even that would have been very messy.
I can't really tell, but it looks like it was a somewhat clean break

So would there be other little bullet things laying around? You mentioned scatter shot are those the little metal things you find laying around? I found nothing other than the red casings No entrance in the trees that would indicate bullet.

That is 'freaking' weird! Can't imagine someone or something just standing there getting his over and over..but if it was just buckshot probably didn't do a lot of hard.
Do you recall what number size were on the shells..#2..#4...#6..BB?

[nightwing]

Goldie, unless a very large shot size was used, the remaining shot would be very difficult to find laying around. Most shot is very small...on the order of 2 MM or less in diamter, so most would be either absorbed into the target or disintigrate on impact. About the only possilbe direct remaining evidence would be any tiny pellets of shot still buried in the tree itself, and you would have to dig for those.
From what I can see of the base of the tree(abviously splintered and shattered), it looks to me as it this could easily be the result of someone messing around, and using a shotgun to knock down the tree. This is a pine, and thus, a softwood, and very suseptible to this sort of thing. The number of shells on the ground would indicate at least a dozen or so shots..likely more then sufficient if concentrated. Modern pump or semi-auto shotguns will eject a shell up to 20 feet...so the fact that they are some distance from the tree is not really telling as to where the shots were fired from..indeed, that they are in a small location DOES indicate a number of them were shot from the same location...exactly as would be expected if the tree was knocked down by repeated rounds from a shotgun.
Given the fact that the tree was taken down in a rough manner, and that a sufficient number of shotgun shells to do the job were found on-site...I think that someone(s) decided to be a jerk, and knock down a tree with a shotgun..
We have the crime, the means, the physical evidence, all we lack is a motive..and sometimes idiots need no motive.
Anyway, interesting, but I think, quite explainable.

[moregon]

A number of years ago I had bought a double barrel 10 gauge for goose hunting. On one of my outings I brought a younger brother who was impressed the first time I pulled the trigger on the 10, and wanted to try it. It was a heavy gun, and not easy to swing, so I told him I'd let him try a couple shots at a still target first to see if he could handle the recoil. I put a pop can in a sapling, with a trunk of maybe 4" thick, then had him stand about 20 feet away and told him to try to knock the can out of the tree. When he pulled the trigger, I swear to God his back arched backwards and the back of his head hit his heels, he isn't a very big guy, and I didn't even pay attention to the target. I then, while still laughing, pointed at the can and said... "You not only missed the can, you missed the tree too!" But both of our mouths fell open, when seconds later the entire tree fell over from about 3' above the ground. The shot had enough force to take a chunk out of the tree about 6" high, and all but about 1/2" of the trunk was gone. No splinters evident in the area, it was as if it was vaporized. These were 3 1/2" 10 Gauge magnum shells with BB shot, and with a full choke.

The choke is what makes the difference, of how wide and fast the pellets spread out. With a goose gun, you want a full choke, because most of your shots will be at a longer range, compared to pheasant and quail, so you don't want the shot to spread out too fast or too wide.

A chart online shows that a shotgun using a full choke, will only spread the shot into a circle of 9" at 10 yards or 30 feet. At even closer range the diameter will be even smaller, and still carry force enough to disintegrate the wood.

Most modern shotshells are either steel, coated lead such as with copper, or some exotic metals. Check in the break, and see if you can spot streaks of a metallic nature, I would say if you do, it was most likely a shotgun blast. One more thing comes to mind that I've seen, and this is VERY DANGEROUS, so don't try this at home as the saying goes. I know some that have taken shotgun shells, and stuck them in holes in trees, fence posts, rocks, hills, then stand a distance off, and try to detonate them using a small caliber round, like a .22 pistol or rifle. When the shotshell goes off, it becomes a virtual bomb and blows everything to smithereens, OR in some cases the shotshell casing will be shot back towards the shooter, it all depends on how the .22 hits the primer of the shothell, and the angle at which it's hit. An easy way to lose an eye, or even suffer some serious injury if you get hit by the flying shell.

SPECIAL SAFETY NOTE:

When I had my brother shoot at the can in the tree, we had a clear view to the tree, and because this was on the edge of a lake, a clear view of at least 3/4 of a mile beyond the tree where the land then sloped upwards of several hundred feet. There were no other hunters, buildings or vehicles in the possible line of fire.

This post has been edited by moregon: Feb 28 2004, 07:09 PM

[goldie]

Thanks. As a researcher that has come across this kind of break on several occasions I would like to tie down the fact that it was taken down with a gun. There were more shells laying inside the tree under it. The tree was about 5 feet from the stump and just no evidence of any round holes in the tree or other metal things. It was a gorgeous tree and too bad it had to be taken out that way.

I went up to this area a few days ago and there had been a wind storm down lower in Medford and evidence that it had happened up there too. One big tree was down against an embankment in several pieces and it looked a little like "something" which I would love to believe was our furry friend had stepped on exposed rocks and roots. I wanted to go up to the top where the main tree was and look around but was afraid I might have a problem and fall as it was muddy and wet. If the pictures turn out at all I will post them. The thing that seemed unusual for just a wind break was that there were several breaks and it didn't fall just directly down from the tree but fell away from the tree and landed down the embankment. Then a way up the road the road was blocked with a tree that was in several pieces now the reason this was strange was because they are logging in that area and one part of the tree had been sawn off but it was dead on the end like it had been sawed a long time ago and then the other pieces of the tree were fresh and twisted/broken off. It was about the same size and type as the one posted above. So some of these tree breaks are really intriging as far as trying to figure out if they were put there to block the road or blown down by the wind. goldie

[GrandCherokee]

These were 3 1/2" 10 Gauge magnum shells with BB shot, and with a full choke.

Minsecule copper cannonballs!
Ful choke....36 inch barrel?
..

[nothed]

goldie
those look like 12ga shells. (red) I've seen a lot of that around here. people look for something to shoot their shot gun at. you can shoot one right in half. Ive seen where they have shot at trees 12in around and got them to lean almost to the ground. look at the break real close you might see small gray specs in the break. I would like to see your pictures when you get them.

[nothed]

doglady
the only thing I can tell you is ther is large trails through the brush. the first tree could have been wind. but there is a game trail behind it. you can see where there is an opening in the brush. the second i can't see any way it's wind. there broke over at the same height and both are pushed down through the brush. I've never seen wind push it over break it and drag it though like an animal had walk into the brush. the third could just be frozen then the wind blew. the fourth was torn off. fir is too tough for wind to do that in my opinion. you can drive over a young fir with a truck or skider and they pretty much pop right back. maybe loose a few needles and lean a little. if you ever tried to tare a branch off one they are tough. the break isn't a previous one. it just looks that way in the pic. the tare is a week old and thats why it looks like a old break. the week before i took these it was a fresh break but i didn't have my camara then so i came back the next weekend. the other end still in the ground looks the same, the wood is separated about 6 in. long on both ends of the break. I say animal. maybe bear cub or cubs. they climbed to the top. it bent over. they didn't let go and maybe played as the tree was now bent straight down. it started to tare and fell to the ground with the cub still hanging on to it. that is what i see except it was the end of december and i have my doubts that bear cub are climbing trees and playing that time of the year. I was just curious to hear other interpretations of them. I think maybe bear? maybe not? i'll post the rest of the tree even though it dosen't show much of anything.

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[nothed]

the other end

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[doglady]

this very thread here is one of the reasons why i love this forum--i learn so much and get to 'see' things from an angle i never would be able to do on my own. I enjoy being able to see common experiences from other peoples' very different perspective. I used to shoot skeet about thirty yrs ago but other than that i have no frame of refference wrt guns. Thanks nothed and goldie.

...but why in hell would anybody go around shooting up trees with a dadburn shotgun!!!???