Questions for the forum Options

[Ontariobfinvesti...]

Hi everyone,

There has been various opinions concerning several topics lately. I would just like to ask a few questions to the veterans of this forum. It's not that I don't know, but I need to comfirm what I believe through you guy's (girls).


If and when a real body is found, what should the precedures be to bring it to the public the right way?


Has any photograph or video ever been proven to be legite through this forum? Other than just being debunked?


What is the generally excepted Bigfoot population in North America?


If we had a spokeman or woman for the Bigfoot Community, who would you choose and why?


If serious evidence was found, who should we contact first?


How can we as a community, deal with jokers like Biscardi? Serious replies please.


Why does the community in general find paid expeditions wrong?


Is there any value when it comes to research in these expeditions?


Has anyone seen any not so legite activities on a paid expedition?


Why does the fossil record of North America not support a large creature such as Bigfoot? Allegedly

Thank-you

[StacyInMI]

Oh! Well, I just answered this at BFD so I'm just gonna cut and paste.

If and when a real body is found, what should the precedures be to bring it to the public the right way?

I'm not sure whether any suggested protocol has even been established by any group. If it were me, the first thing I'd do after securing the body would be to contact a lawyer (ie. Counselor) who's not going to blow you off and who'll listen and take you seriously, and have YOUR interests taken care of before you even talk to anyone else. From there, I'd probably contact a zoologist, biologist, and primatologist who are completely unknown to bigfooting and have no interest, and have them document everything they can about it (after completing the necessary hush-hush paperwork). Then maybe make an official announcement? Or present it to a scientific journal first? I dunno.

Has any photograph or video ever been proven to be legite through this forum? Other than just being debunked?

I don't think any photo could be proven to be legit on its own, and any video would have to be pretty darn convincing and practically impossible to have been hoaxed. The location where it was shot would have to be looked at and the size of the subject (height at least) would have to be estimated using some object in the video it had been next to. Then there's all kinds of physical and anatomical details to look at... oh, and the video would have to be CLEAR. So, no.

What is the generally excepted Bigfoot population in North America?

I honestly don't know how anyone could guess at that, now knowing everyplace they really are to begin with.

If we had a spokeman or woman for the Bigfoot Community, who would you choose and why?

There's such a list LOL... it'd have to be someone well-spoken, level-headed and not prone to be baited into arguments, and not someone self-promoting or who seeks publicity. Tom Steenburg, Sam Rich, I'm not even gonna go any farther 'cause I'll forget people and there are plenty who could do the job well, although I don't think any one spokesperson would be needed or would emerge naturally. Currently, Meldrum would come closest to having the label.

If serious evidence was found, who should we contact first?

See #1.

How can we as a community, deal with jokers like Biscardi? Serious replies please.

I dunno if I can be serious about Biscardi. Buuuuuut, what everyone already does is about all that can be done... make it clear to whoever, whenever, that he is NOT considered in any way legitimate by anyone seriously involved in bigfooting, that he's a known charlatan, and otherwise not give him the time of day.

Why does the community in general find paid expeditions wrong?

It's not that they're paid... nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just that the paid expeditions are usually put on by incompetent, egotistical showmen who magically have something happen during every outing and love to tell their attendees that coyote and owl calls are bigfoot, and generally act like jerks. Plus why pay hundreds of dollars for something you can do free? Even if you've never been in the woods before and are totally naive to the subject, do these people reeeeally think that they've got half a chance at seeing something in a huge group that hasn't even been proven to exist because it's so sly and elusive? I think the absurdity of it is as much a turn-off as the people who organize it.

Is there any value when it comes to research in these expeditions?

Sure, there could be, if you don't expect the "value" to come in the form of evidence. People could learn new skills like recognizing animal tracks, how to cast tracks, stuff like that. Plus, there's nothing like being out in the middle of nowhere sharing time and stories around a campfire with like-minded people who could turn out to be great contacts and friends.! BUT, something like that could be organized right here or at BFF (and has been, several times), so there's still no need to pay for that experience.

Has anyone seen any not so legite activities on a paid expedition?

I can't answer that one.

Why does the fossil record of North America not support a large creature such as Bigfoot? Allegedly

No idea, except that I seem to remember reading somewhere that until very recently, there was no fossil record of any of the modern great apes either, but I'd have to double-check that and I've got a kitchen to clean and dinner to start.


This should turn out to be a great thread, good questions!

[Texas Bigfoot]

As for paid expeditions, it's not that they are wrong, but just not smart. Like smoking. It's ok with me if you smoke, it's just not smart. Why pay to go somewhere you could go anytime for free?

[Saskeptic]

Wow - lots to chew on here, most of which is well covered in other threads. You could use the SEARCH function and learn a lot more about the nuances of these questions than you'll get in bulleted opinions by we of the peanut gallery. But for what it's worth, here are some of mine.

If and when a real body is found, what should the precedures be to bring it to the public the right way?

State Troopers (Provincial Troopers?). Here in the states, our Troopers should be the first responders for any dead bigfoot. Wildlife are the property of the state, not the individual. So Troopers will be able to follow the appropriate legal course of action to get the body and the documentation to the proper authorities in the state wildlife department and, likely, to an appropriate museum for necropsy and curation.

State/Provincial law enforcement should also be the first contact if the dead body was judged to be human. In this case, the corpse would go through the Medical Examiner's office, again preserving the proper chain of custody and documentation - and preservation in a morgue.

Either way - human or "animal" - you the finder are not legally allowed to keep the body. (If you did, you could probably stay out of trouble with a "this is a unique situation" defense, but better to avoid all that hassle and just deliver the body to the appropriate authorities.

Don't worry about making money off "your" bigfoot body. It can't be done. If you really have a bigfoot, then you won't be allowed to keep it. You'll make plenty of money, however, off your story of getting the first ever bigfoot, the photos you'll take, etc. You'll still get rich, so as quickly as you can, get the thing in the hands of the state police.

Has any photograph or video ever been proven to be legite through this forum? Other than just being debunked?

If "bigfoot" is so far unauthenticated as a living organism, then how could any reputed image of one be regarded "legitimate?" Probably the only imagery seriously considered to be objectively inconclusive is the Patterson/Gimlin Film.

What is the generally excepted Bigfoot population in North America?

Zero, same as the global population. But if we assume such a creature did exist and that it ranged over the area in which it is reported to occur and a few more things about its biology, then I have arrived at a North American estimate of ~ 6000.

If we had a spokeman or woman for the Bigfoot Community, who would you choose and why?

Myself, because I'd be respectful of believers even though I'm not one. I'm arguably not, however, part of that "Community."

If serious evidence was found, who should we contact first?

If by "serious evidence" you mean a body, see answer to #1.

How can we as a community, deal with jokers like Biscardi? Serious replies please.

Ignore him (and those like him) unequivocally.

Why does the community in general find paid expeditions wrong?

Is there any value when it comes to research in these expeditions?

Has anyone seen any not so legite activities on a paid expedition?

Beautifully addressed by Stacy.

Why does the fossil record of North America not support a large creature such as Bigfoot? Allegedly

Because there is no creature such as bigfoot. I'm not just being cheeky - the complete lack of a fossil record is actually a major hurdle to my acceptance of a flesh and blood bigfoot.

[sasmbon]

Wow - lots to chew on here, most of which is well covered in other threads. You could use the SEARCH function and learn a lot more about the nuances of these questions than you'll get in bulleted opinions by we of the peanut gallery. But for what it's worth, here are some of mine.
State Troopers (Provincial Troopers?). Here in the states, our Troopers should be the first responders for any dead bigfoot. Wildlife are the property of the state, not the individual. So Troopers will be able to follow the appropriate legal course of action to get the body and the documentation to the proper authorities in the state wildlife department and, likely, to an appropriate museum for necropsy and curation.

State/Provincial law enforcement should also be the first contact if the dead body was judged to be human. In this case, the corpse would go through the Medical Examiner's office, again preserving the proper chain of custody and documentation - and preservation in a morgue.

Either way - human or "animal" - you the finder are not legally allowed to keep the body. (If you did, you could probably stay out of trouble with a "this is a unique situation" defense, but better to avoid all that hassle and just deliver the body to the appropriate authorities.

In the infinite brilliance of the political word in Canada, the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) are charged with the task of policing the areas outside any city that has local police. The RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) are essentially Canada's FBI and DEA, only with regular policing duties in different detachments, with CSIS being Canada's CIA although it deals primarily in-country. While most cities have local police, outside the borders of the city the RCMP are in charge except for Ontario. Although on the provincial borders in Ontario I see the RCMP, as well as at the weigh-stations. We also have the DOT (Department of Transportation) who have the authority to pull over and inspect big rigs. Not too long ago I was on the Trans-Canada there was a DOT van that had pulled over a big rig with two RCMP cruisers behind. The doors of the trailer were open with what I assume to be the driver stepping up into it followed by a mountie, with another mountie with his gun drawn in the shooting stance but in "safe" (gun pointed 45 degrees to the ground). I didn't stick around to watch, but one lane was blocked off so it was slow passing by.

To recap Canada's brilliance:

RCMP = FBI, DEA and rural police rolled into one massive unit with different detachments.
OPP = Rural police in Ontario
DOT = Boring job
CSIS = Intel

Our Military is also a tri-service now, amalgamating the army, navy, and air force. Coast Guard (CCG) being semi-separate.

And my IP = logged by more than just this site

[Gigantofootecus]

State Troopers (Provincial Troopers?). Here in the states, our Troopers should be the first responders for any dead bigfoot. Wildlife are the property of the state, not the individual. So Troopers will be able to follow the appropriate legal course of action to get the body and the documentation to the proper authorities in the state wildlife department and, likely, to an appropriate museum for necropsy and curation.

State/Provincial law enforcement should also be the first contact if the dead body was judged to be human. In this case, the corpse would go through the Medical Examiner's office, again preserving the proper chain of custody and documentation - and preservation in a morgue.

Either way - human or "animal" - you the finder are not legally allowed to keep the body. (If you did, you could probably stay out of trouble with a "this is a unique situation" defense, but better to avoid all that hassle and just deliver the body to the appropriate authorities.

Wow Sas really? I had no idea this was the case in the US. For all states? I find that quite a revelation that the quest for the jackpot isn't really there for Americans. I'm unsure of the Provincial laws regarding this.

I don't think you can even count on your "first to bring in the beast" story to bring in the cash. Some maybe, but not a windfall as opposed to displaying the body or selling the body to the highest bidder, etc. I wonder how Biscardi thought he could bypass state law? This is quite an eye opener.

On that informative note, I wonder what would be the best way to "cash in" if you found a bigfoot? Should you smuggle it home, chop it up and sell off the pieces? Does the state own the pieces too? What if you claim you found a hand severed in a leghold trap? How about the skeleton? Can you keep bones? Questions for another thread, but it makes me wonder what would be the best way to cash in if you found a bigfoot, then wasn't allowed to keep it?

[psyche101]

Another forum I attend has member form Americas South, and she put forward the most sensible notions I have heard for a long time.

Surmising these creatures exist for this scenario, it is incredible we have never found one. I am sure everyone agrees on this point.

So, if (staying with hypotheticals here) you were to be the one to find a Biff corpse, would you be incredibly lucky, or incredibly unlucky?

The fact that a single bone has never been found would indicate Biff somehow manages to dispose of their dead.

So how did you get lucky - why did Biff leave one corpse in the known history of man for you to find?

If the reason is disease, you are in one large bucker of hot water. So could be everyone you come into contact with.

I'd call proper authorities after realising this BiScardi be dammned surely the whole world knows what a charlatan the cretin is by now? Why someone would not have gone straight to Meldrum over BiScardi amazes me.

Thanks to my friend D is Here

This post has been edited by psyche101: Sep 3 2008, 07:13 PM

[RedRatSnake]

Hi

This is the second time today i have seen the word Biff / Bif in a thread that has also mentioned Biscardi, ( There was a misprint in an article on cryptomundo, Posted by manlikecreature ), Then LongTabber coined it as word of the day, Now in this thread by psyche101, ~ Anyone think it might be a good word to use from now on when TB has a new claim ? >>>> BifFoot <<<<<

Peace
Tim

[sasmbon]

Hi

This is the second time today i have seen the word Biff / Bif in a thread that has also mentioned Biscardi, ( There was a misprint in an article on cryptomundo, Posted by manlikecreature ), Then LongTabber coined it as word of the day, Now in this thread by psyche101, ~ Anyone think it might be a good word to use from now on when TB has a new claim ? >>>> BifFoot <<<<<

Peace
Tim

I'll stick to "actual" English, though I do make up a few words here and there

[psyche101]

Hi

This is the second time today i have seen the word Biff / Bif in a thread that has also mentioned Biscardi, ( There was a misprint in an article on cryptomundo, Posted by manlikecreature ), Then LongTabber coined it as word of the day, Now in this thread by psyche101, ~ Anyone think it might be a good word to use from now on when TB has a new claim ? >>>> BifFoot <<<<<

Peace
Tim

I heard the term used on another forum some months ago and took quite a shine to it just a shortening of the name (Down here in Oz we are famous for that - the barby (BBQ) - the Chrissy (Christmas) dinner, etc. it's part of the local slang)

If the creature was discovered I think I would continue to refer to it the same.

Come on sasmbon, lighten up LOL, I reckon it's a cool nick, imagine he could use that here!

Hey Biff, are you real,

Damn straight Psyche101! Come here and I''ll show ya!
BIFF!!! (KAPOW KABLOOEY?)

This post has been edited by psyche101: Sep 3 2008, 08:34 PM

[17x7]

Why does the fossil record of North America not support a large creature such as Bigfoot? Allegedly

I've yet to hear about any expeditions in North America of folks looking for fossils of large creatures like Bigfoot. Allegedly.

17x7

[psyche101]

I've yet to hear about any expeditions in North America of folks looking for fossils of large creatures like Bigfoot. Allegedly.

17x7

Many studies are carried out. Check with the Local Unis.
Here are sone links for the meantime.

This first one deals with the coastlie and Ocean - they are pretty thorough.
Robot Vehicle Surveys Deep Sea Off Pacific Northwest

Late Cenezoic History of the Pacific Northwest

Mammoths - The fossils, in some cases whole skeletons of Mammathus columbi, the Columbian mammoth, were deposited in the hillsides of what are now the Yakima, Columbia and Walla Walla valleys

Ginko finds (showed up abundantly in fossils dating back 150 million years)

and an overview of notable fossil finds in the area.

Enjoy.
Many more expeditions for extant wild life abound. More people look for live things than dead ones it seems

This post has been edited by psyche101: Sep 4 2008, 01:04 AM

[Saskeptic]

Wow Sas really? I had no idea this was the case in the US. For all states? I find that quite a revelation that the quest for the jackpot isn't really there for Americans. I'm unsure of the Provincial laws regarding this.

It's hypothetical, of course, because there is no precedent. One could argue for possession of the remains if "bigfoot" is not on the list of species known to occur in the state. I assume, however, that these statutes include "inclusive" language regarding the species of wildlife covered.

Most wildlife biologists have "scientific collector's" permits or "salvage" permits that allow us to possess specimens. (And I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to abuse our permits by making money off of the specimens we keep, although this could get a little murky in terms of raising money and charging admission to museums . . . ) States vary on this, but just about anybody can kill, possess, etc. invertebrates, reptiles, and amphibians - so long as those species are not otherwise protected as threatened or endangered species. For birds and mammals that's generally not the case. You need a special permit to possess their remains, and additional permits if the species is threatened or endangered or legal game. (A notable exception is that some mammals or birds considered "vermin" may be legally killed or possessed without a permit.)

For example, if I find a Norway rat carcass I can keep it without a permit because rats are non-native species and considered vermin.

If I find a porcupine carcass, I can keep it using my salvage permit.

If I find a deer carcass, I can probably keep it ultimately, but I'm sure gonna call my local wildlife enforcement officer to double-check first. He might want to investigate to determine the cause of death, e.g., to rule out poaching. So even if your truck is the one that hits and kills the deer that you're attempting to salvage, it's always a good idea to make a phone call with local law enforcement.

A dead sasquatch in this scenario is most like the porcupine - not a game species and generally not listed as vermin (that might be different up in Canada!). So, unless I have a salvage permit, I cannot legally possess it. That doesn't mean I'll do jail time for keeping it, but it does mean that the state has the legal authority to confiscate it.

Now if the sasquatch body was interpreted as human (a very likely scenario in my estimation), then it should be even more obvious to folks that the finder cannot legally keep it. It'd be regarded as a human body!


So - whether human or wildlife - I cannot envision how a person could make money off the carcass itself.


Now fossils are different. The landowner owns the fossils as I understand things. How that might apply to something like frozen mammoths, I do not know.

[dogu4]

I'm curious as to what most would think that BF remains would look like. From what I've seen, if you found a femur that looked about the size of a modern adults, it might indicate that its original owner was considerably larger than one might imagine. Bones can shrink and our judgement in this is not always the best since our experience is typically not all that great.
Also if the finding of fossil bones was evidence of widespread occupation, there'd be precious little for humans. Skeletal remains from intentional burials from the last few hundred years are not too terribly scarce, but the older you go the less there are to be found...and I don't know if this is true exactly, but I've heard that the only true fossil (some discussion on just what is a fossil is bearing on the definition), meaning mineralized and preserved over a long time, of any human remains in North America comes down to a single tooth found in a cave in Southeast Alaska a few years ago. Maybe there are others but the point is that the fossil record is not a random sample generation process.
I'll stick with cladistics and paleoclimate for reasons for continued curiousity.

[Squatch_bait]

Why does the fossil record of North America not support a large creature such as Bigfoot? Allegedly



It takes very special conditions for a fossil to form rapidly before the body gets degraded. It takes marshes with clay and rapid covering of the remains. Such conditions were not common in NA. In areas where you find fossils (Montana, Alberta badlands, Miguasha in Gaspesia peninsula in Quebec) they are very old and so far no BF was found close to an Albertosaurus because tey were probably separated by 80 million years of erosion.

As far as finding bones, there are too many insects and predators in our woods, who eat away completely a dead deer in seven days. After thirty days, nothing remains of the deer, nor of the sasquatch. Regarding the sasquatch, some people theoritized that perhaps they bury their deads. After all, Homo Neanderthalensis was burying his deads, and some Russian scientists believe today that their yeti is in fact the evolution of the Homo Neanderthalensis.

Eh! you live practically next door to me! (I'm in Montreal). I passed by Sudbury on my motorcycle a month ago; not much chance to see a sasquatch there, although there were a few sightings. Good luck to you. Make a good picture for once! Remember that sasquatch perceives the infrared, so the focusing device of your camera will shy it away quickly! Get a manual focus camera without flash, and use 900 ASA Fuji colour film and a very bright len. The best would be a Leica M7 with the 50 mm F1 len, but you have to be real close... And the set is about 9000 $... The flash would make him angry and blind for ten seconds.

This post has been edited by Squatch_bait: Sep 4 2008, 08:38 PM

[Ontariobfinvesti...]

Thank's everyone for replying. Very intelligent answers thank-you again. With posters like you I still can't believe we haven't wrapped this whole Bigfoot thing up yet.lol

Squatch bait,

I'm in Montreal about 3 times a month picking up dealer cars at the auction there. Question for you, Do Montrealers remove the speedo's out of their cars when they get them? lol You think your fast untill you drive in Montreal traffic. lol

This post has been edited by Ontariobfinvestigator: Sep 4 2008, 08:58 PM

[Squatch_bait]

Thank's everyone for replying. Very intelligent answers thank-you again. With posters like you I still can't believe we haven't wrapped this whole Bigfoot thing up yet.lol

Squatch bait,

I'm in Montreal about 3 times a month picking up dealer cars at the auction there. Question for you, Do Montrealers remove the speedo's out of their cars when they get them? lol You think your fast untill you drive in Montreal traffic. lol

Yah we don't loose time on the road, and wondering why other Canadians do!! Nothing like New-Yorkers though!! But more polite for sure.
The worst I have seen is Rome, and Athens.

[vilnoori]

"# In 1996, the skull and bones of a 9,200-year-old man were found in Kennewick, Wash. Scientists suggest "Kennewick Man" died between the ages of 45 and 55 of an abscessed tooth, though a stone point had also wounded him at some time in his life.

# In 1997, a single molar was discovered in central Oregon's John Day Fossil Beds National Monument. This tooth came from a primate that lived about 24 million years ago, making it the youngest known primate fossil in North America."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/local/northwest.html

Wow, I didn't know about that primate tooth! Fascinating! Heck, at 24 mya it might be one of the oldest primates around. Maybe they came from here originally...what a thought!

[psyche101]

"# In 1996, the skull and bones of a 9,200-year-old man were found in Kennewick, Wash. Scientists suggest "Kennewick Man" died between the ages of 45 and 55 of an abscessed tooth, though a stone point had also wounded him at some time in his life.

# In 1997, a single molar was discovered in central Oregon's John Day Fossil Beds National Monument. This tooth came from a primate that lived about 24 million years ago, making it the youngest known primate fossil in North America."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/local/northwest.html

Wow, I didn't know about that primate tooth! Fascinating! Heck, at 24 mya it might be one of the oldest primates around. Maybe they came from here originally...what a thought!

This primate was something like a flying Lemur. This one is particularly important because other specimens from South Dakota had been dated at 28 million years ago and were considered to mark the end of the original primate lineage in North America. This puts another 4 million years on to mark the end of Primates in North America. The two groups of primate that lived in North America between 55 - (now) 24 million years ago were the Omomyids and Adapids. Early representatives of the Omomyidae and Adapidae appear suddenly at the beginning of the Eocene of North America, Europe, and Asia, and are the earliest known crown primates.
I love this stuff.....Paleontology kicks butt.

[psyche101]

As far as finding bones, there are too many insects and predators in our woods, who eat away completely a dead deer in seven days. After thirty days, nothing remains of the deer, nor of the sasquatch. Regarding the sasquatch, some people theoritized that perhaps they bury their deads. After all, Homo Neanderthalensis was burying his deads, and some Russian scientists believe today that their yeti is in fact the evolution of the Homo Neanderthalensis.

The dissaperaing carcass theory just does not work, it may in some places for some cases, but more often than not a carcass dissapates very slowly back to the earth. I think this a particularly bad theory because even a scattering scavenger will not devour a skull, and a single Biff skull would be very noticeable and easily identified.
Another forum I belong to saw this theory as well. One member wandered out that very afternoon and returned with several pictures of Mule carcasses (3 or 4 from memory) in all states of decomposition. I personally have witnessed horses. cattle and sheep decaying over many months.
Bury the dead does not work either. We find all types of dead humans. If several thousand Biff creatures resided in the PNW and have been burying dead there for the last 12 thousand years or so, one would have been found by now. Even so neither theory can account for all deaths due to accident disease and natural causes across a global situation. All of which can offer very little choice with regards to time and place upon it's arrival. Otzi the Iceman is one human preceedent that springs to mind.
Otzi

If such a creature could survive in the colder climates of the world huddling in small populations in remote locations, the Neandertal actually is a good candidate. Built for cold, larger brain case than sapiens more robust homninid could only survive covertly in places like the Himilayays, but then Hilliary's initial observations have coerced me into offering the Yeti legend a personal soft spot with regards to a rather sceptical view of this enigmatic hominid. I find the tale of the Pangboche hand enthralling as well. I'd love to know where that is. Initial samples of that indicated possible Neandertal. Also in the Neandertal's favour as a candidate is the fact that he only seems to have disapeared 22.5 thousand years ago.

Lookswise though, I think Homo Habilis the best look alike in the history of man